White fish disappearance

[woodchip]

White fish disappeared from Sebago Because of acid fallout and access of extra Phosphorus as part of the lowering of PH   and no other reason. after Sebago's lost a year or so later Moosehead Lake lost them a year or so later Caribou and Chesuncook  lost all of their White fish.  But to bring back proper PH it would be a costly process everyone choses to blame other reasons.

[Anomaly]

White fish disappeared from Sebago Because of acid fallout and access of extra Phosphorus as part of the lowering of PH   and no other reason. after Sebago's lost a year or so later Moosehead Lake lost them a year or so later Caribou and Chesuncook  lost all of their White fish.  But to bring back proper PH it would be a costly process everyone choses to blame other reasons.

Hey Woodchip, While what you say is valid and true to a degree, IT IS NOT the sole issue....

"Management: Lake whitefish populations have suffered massive declines over the past 50 years or so. In a 2016 status assessment, the Department determined that whitefish remained present in about 50 waters in Maine, but many of those waters no longer supported self-sustaining populations, meaning we are likely to see continuing decline of the species, including complete loss of whitefish populations in a number of lakes.

Lake whitefish declines have coincided with the introduction of rainbow smelt, and research in Maine and elsewhere has identified smelt as the primary cause to reproductive failure and eventual loss of whitefish populations. A current research project within MDIFW is attempting to better understand the exact mechanisms that are driving the whitefish-smelt interaction, and find ways to mitigate the problems and inform whitefish recovery efforts."

https://www.maine.gov/ifw/fish-wildlife/fisheries/species-information/lake-whitefish.html 

"Restrictive fishing regulations over the past two decades and a whitefish hatchery stocking program (from 2003-2009) appear to have helped in some waters, but have resulted in limited success to date. Recently we have seen very positive results in waters with increased numbers of lake trout, which have caused depressed smelt numbers. These low smelt numbers appear to have reduced the level of smelt-whitefish interaction and resulted in encouraging levels of whitefish reproduction."

[Anomaly]

Anecdotally, I fish a lake on occasion where there are 20 - 26" whitefish. It's pretty much skunk and it's a good day to just have a flag or mark a fish. Anyway, I fished it a few weeks ago. Had one flag early. Marked a few small fish that turned out to be 12" togue. BUT almost every hole I jigged  - like 20 - had walls of smelt. I'm talking sometimes 10' deep schools in 50' of water. There were everywhere! The bio I fish with believes they are no longer successfully spawning in there. While not a scientific opinion from me, anecdotal observation only..... This does coincide with IFW assessment.

[Anomaly]

Smelt are an invasive species stocked, like lake trout in Sebago, where they DO NOT belong.

[woodchip]

You sound just like a state official, Smelts were in Sebago where they were allowed to spring dip them but they were declining in numbers as were the white fish they both need a high PH to be healthy .Togue and Salmon and white fish all live together in the great lakes together and many other lakes that are healthy  .Proper PH. Sebago and many other lakes in the state have been closed to dipping smelts Because they are  not a good fish to have around?? Smelt's streams in the ocean have been closed to dipping because of declining pop. Maybe the low PH water in the freshwater streams and rivers have low PH running into the ocean killing Clams and Smelts??? How do you think they should fix the problem? 

[Anomaly]

You sound just like a state official, Smelts were in Sebago where they were allowed to spring dip them but they were declining in numbers as were the white fish they both need a high PH to be healthy .Togue and Salmon and white fish all live together in the great lakes together and many other lakes that are healthy  .

Smelt and whitefish were both affected by pesticides, upland pollution runoff and related ph issues in Sebago. Yes, It is true ph IS A FACTOR, BUT it is not the sole factor nor is it a factor in all water bodies. In addition, Bodies of water like The Great Lakes and Lakes in Canada like Simcoe are much larger that any Maine lakes. Simcoe is 2x the size of Moosehead for example... PLUS Most Canadian lakes don't have the pollution issues the US does and development along lake shore allowing nutrients and acid runoff into the water. Meanwhile, smelt have a significant impact on whitefish eggs and fry. It's like bees on blueberry blossoms and green crabs on clams. They never stop and there are millions of them compared to 100s of thousands. It's just not as simple are ph though PH IS part of it... Also, State bios are just like you, EXCEPT THEY HAVE DECADES OF RECORDS and comparative data. So, less carbon footprint, less nutrient and pollution load in runoff is a start. Smelt? I don't know, but smelt are invasives stocked in many water bodies, which is not always a good thing. There is a direct correlation in whitefish stocks decline and smelt population increased and introduction. That is evident and easily researched.

[Anomaly]

I should add, water bodies like Simcoe and The great lakes have massive areas for spawning and have large populations of varieties of fish that keep a balance. We in Maine simply don't have water bodies like that and so our waters are more easily set off balance by the factors you mention and others, like invasive  and overpopulated species, however they grew. . 

[woodchip]

Your right about that.

[jacksmelt71]

biggest problem with smelt and whitefish is they feed on the same thing, competing with each other for food . smelt spawn much more eggs and grow so much faster, where as whitefish develop slowly. no way to fix it once the smelt get established in a whitefish lake. they tried reintroducing them 20 yrs ago up here and they never caught one over the min. size of 16in. and they destroyed the whitefish population of another lake by transplanting the eggs stripped out of the whitefish there. just too many smelts in these lakes to allow the whitefish to get established again.

[woodchip]

Your right about that but lower ph was the final chapter   I can remember jigging many large White fish out of Sebago when heavy tree cutting and acid fallout began   they went fast. Maybe when they stopped smelt dipping in these big lakes, they let more smelts live in lakes to feed on White fish spawn like suckers and Fall fish do?

[bouncin_toads]

What about lakes that have declining rainbow smelt populations as well as the whitefish. Then what is the leading factor. I have noticed considerable decline in smelt at places my dad took me as a boy. I have taken my son and we would go every night until they are running then when they come in, it's like they come into the stream 1 or 2 at a time. We might get a dozen if we stay all night. Not like when I was a kid. It's fishing pressure and environment contamination. From humans period.

[Anomaly]

What about lakes that have declining rainbow smelt populations as well as the whitefish. Then what is the leading factor. I have noticed considerable decline in smelt at places my dad took me as a boy. I have taken my son and we would go every night until they are running then when they come in, it's like they come into the stream 1 or 2 at a time. We might get a dozen if we stay all night. Not like when I was a kid. It's fishing pressure and environment contamination. From humans period.

It appears pollution in some. Invasives in others and combinations are likely in still others...Here's an example of one water body: https://www.maine.gov/dep/water/monitoring/tmdl/2001/tmdlsebrep.pdf
https://www.maine.gov/ifw/docs/lake-survey-maps/penobscot/sebasticook_lake.pdf

[jacksmelt71]

What about lakes that have declining rainbow smelt populations as well as the whitefish. Then what is the leading factor. I have noticed considerable decline in smelt at places my dad took me as a boy. I have taken my son and we would go every night until they are running then when they come in, it's like they come into the stream 1 or 2 at a time. We might get a dozen if we stay all night. Not like when I was a kid. It's fishing pressure and environment contamination. From humans period.

i say its a combo of all of the above. bieng a schooling fish also makes them vulnerable to over fishing.

[woodchip]

Jack do you think the PH is lower now than it was in 1960?   Do you think we have a large quanity  of Phosphorus  running into our lakes and ponds  ? Are we get acid fallout

[PINSMELT]

I didn't see them myself but I was told two white fish were jigged up on Sebago during the derby.

[woodchip]

Acid fallout has a route pattern like all our weather storms when they get near Baxter state park they swing east and out to sea. So, lakes north of this still have a small Population of White fish. 

[mikez]

I don't know anything about the decline in whitefish. I'm following this interesting thread and seeing valid points from several posters.
One thing that does jump out at me though is; my understanding has been that environmental regs have greatly improved the situation with acid rain. That does not mean the previous damage does not linger, just saying, it's nowhere near what it was 30 years ago.
https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/07/09/whatever-happened-acid-rain-15651

[woodchip]

Wish there was a way of bringing back our quality before most of us are gone, maybe truck loading in Pot ash to upper part of drainage, like Brooks, streams??? But that would be a costly fee for the state, I've heard that Biologist with good ideas no longer work for state.

[mikez]

Here's a paper that seems to conclude that smelt are effective predators of whitefish fry. You have to scroll down and download the pdf.

https://www1.usgs.gov/coopunits/project/42034051073/jzydlewski

[woodchip]

These are all goog facts. Why has the state closed smelt dipping?

[mikez]

These are all goog facts. Why has the state closed smelt dipping?

Doing some quick Google searches it looks like smelt are a higher priority than whitefish.

Reasons listed are;

Forage for gamefish

Recreational opportunities for people who eat them or use them for bait

Commercial value as bait

Apparently the powers that be feel smelt have more value than whitefish.

[MadSledder]

Just because whitefish were listed as "gone" from a lake at about the same time does not mean its the same reason or only reason. And in most of these lakes its probably a combination of reasons. I fish Chesuncook on the regular. They were present in one or more of the lakes that existed before the modern dam. Whitefish are a fall spawner like the trout and salmon. those eggs need to stay wet until iceout in the spring when they hatch. They typically spawn on shallow lake shores. The modern Chesuncook lake typically is somewhat lower than full pond in the fall, but often goes ~20 ft down in the winter. So there, you probably had most of your eggs getting de-watered and killed every winter.

Similar phenomenon on Moosehead and Sebago - winter water level manipulation likely was a contributing factor. Those lakes do not have nearly as much of a drawdown, and I am not an expert on what the seasonal timing of the drawdowns WERE back when the whitefish were going bust. But also a combination of the other things - smelt are predator, so are perch, sunfish, bass, crayfish, ect. Acid rain, shoreline development, upland loggin and sedimentation as well as physical log driving. There were a lot of things that could have and probably did contribute at different levels on each lake.

One of the very often overlooked pieces of whitefish, togue, cusk, etc - they are all very long lived fish, and we only catch a small percent of them in a given year. Its easy and routine for these species to be 10 - 20+ yrs old. Its easy to say: "Well we caught the last one in 1968, so something must have gone wrong in 1965-1970"  But that fish may have ben born in 1945, and the population may have been in a slow decline or been having very poor reproduction and recruitment since 1915.

We know the whitefish are gone in some lakes. It was a combination of factors that varied a bit by lake, I'm sure. We didn't do a good job of appreciating and documenting what we had prior to loosing it - and thats a shame.

What we can do is try not repeat the mistakes of our past, and be sure we don't loose any more.