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Maine => Ice Fishing Maine => Topic started by: Anomaly on Mar 10, 2022, 06:43 AM
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Here's the Whitefish PartLAKE WHITEFISH
Coregonus clupeaformis
Significant declines in the range and abundance of native lake whitefish have impacted locally popular winter sport fisheries and are threatening the species’ long-term sustainability. Viable populations are con- centrated in headwater lakes and ponds of the Allagash and Penobscot River drainages in north-central Maine. Waters in the St. Croix drainage in Washington County are also noted for whitefish populations. Distribution in southern and western Maine is limited to only a few lakes where limited available information indicates little to no recruitment. Lake whitefish are identified in Maine’s State Wildlife Action Plan as a Species of Greatest Conservation Need.
One unusual trait that is rarely found in other species but frequently seen among whitefish is the tendency to form dwarfed populations. Though still considered the same species, the dwarf ecotype of lake whitefish grows to a much smaller size, matures earlier (at age one or two), and has a much shorter lifespan.
Lakes and ponds containing Lake Whitefish (53 waterbodies)
The modern lake whitefish sport fishery grew in popularity in the early 1970s, coinciding with a decline in whitefish populations not thought to be directly related to fishing pressure. During the last planning period, concerted efforts to reverse whitefish popula- tion declines were undertaken, including promulgation of restrictive fishing regulations and implementing
a lake whitefish hatchery stocking program. Neither conservation measure proved successful. Available information suggests that negative interactions from populations of rainbow smelt introduced as prey/ forage for other popular sportfish (i.e., landlocked Atlantic salmon, togue, etc.) are likely responsible for recruitment failure in most lake whitefish populations. Other factors may also influence recruitment; for example, togue introduced into Sebago Lake appear
to have contributed to an observed decline in lake whitefish.
INLAND FISHERIES AND HATCHERIES STRATEGIC MANAGEMENT PLAN 2021–2035 . VOLUME I 32
FEATURED SPORT FISH GOALS – LAKE WHITEFISH
Goals, Objectives & Conservation/Management Strategies
GOAL Conserve native populations of lake whitefish Assess the status and health of all known populations of lake whitefish
in Maine (High Priority)
• Develop an assessment plan to characterize population age structure and relative
abundance to establish a baseline for this planning period
Identify and implement strategies to reduce threats and protect lake whitefish (High Priority)
• Examine Department stocking and management programs to reduce potential impacts to lake whitefish populations, considerate of inter-specific competition, regulations, lake whitefish population abundance, angler use, and risk for new competing introductions
• Explore the merit of additional restrictive regulatory measures and other strategies to maintain existing remnant populations
• Identify populations that could be positively or negatively affected by climate change and develop strategies to mitigate effects, particularly among most at-risk populations
• Identify waters that may be candidates for chemical reclamation
• Investigate options to reduce smelt populations and their interactions with lake whitefish, including mechanical harvest, predation (sterile & nonsterile), and liberalized smelt harvest opportunities
• Monitor key environmental and land management practices that can influence habitat suitability
Increase public awareness and stewardship (High Priority)
• Develop outreach regarding threats (e.g., influence of illegal introductions of smelt)
• Increase angling use opportunity by creating fisheries that will also serve as “gene banks” • Use various outreach tools to highlight one of Maine’s less known native sportfish
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The acidity of the water is directly related and no one wats to agree because it will take to long and bigger expense ,,Admit it!!
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The acidity of the water is directly related and no one wats to agree because it will take to long and bigger expense ,,Admit it!!
It is definitely part of it, in some waters and to varying degrees. There are other impinging factors as noted.
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Sebago lake they the local towns have allowed big Landfills within a short distance on lake. water runs from Landfills into lake is one of the biggest reasons PH is dropping, shortly after these landfills were in place the White fish and all other fish started their downhill growth rate. The easiest and most common complaint was blame Togue introduction, even though they all live together in other bodies of water, Great lakes etc.
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The whitefish section is just as piss poor as the rest of that report.
There is a LOT of things they need to do better, like actually surveying lakes again. If you look through the lake survey maps, you see that most have only been recently done in the late 90's and some not since the 50's. If they aren't actually taking the time to study the waters and are instead relying on anecdotal info and 70 year old surveys, how can they effectively manage a watershed?
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There is a LOT of things they need to do better, like actually surveying lakes again. If you look through the lake survey maps, you see that most have only been recently done in the late 90's and some not since the 50's. If they aren't actually taking the time to study the waters and are instead relying on anecdotal info and 70 year old surveys, how can they effectively manage a watershed?
Lmao this is one of my biggest pet peevs I always bring up with my buddies. Those surveys are a complete joke. The newest ones are 20 years old.
How am I supposed to take any of that report seriously when the lake survey maps are as old as my grandma? And no mention of pike at all in that report. Complete JOKE.
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Lmao this is one of my biggest pet peevs I always bring up with my buddies. Those surveys are a complete joke. The newest ones are 20 years old.
How am I supposed to take any of that report seriously when the lake survey maps are as old as my grandma? And no mention of pike at all in that report. Complete JOKE.
Actually, not that I have intimate knowledge on it all, I fish with a couple bios. Las year they did a bunch of aging studies on whitefish. I supplied a few heads. They ARE looking into how to boost populations. Money and staff are issues. They haven't had a lot of success spawning whitefish and I'm told they are very hard to live trap. I was told that when enquiring why they didn't transplant adults into likely viable waters. Another bio told me to make noise, ie start contacting the commissioner on a regular basis. I DO know a lake that was illegally stocked in the seventies with them and DID have a self perpetuating population until recently. NOW there are clouds of smelt everywhere and the belief is the smelt a simple eating all the spawn and fry.... No small fish, anymore. Maybe one way is a similar program of catching adults and transplanting a couple hundred of them into waters with promising habitat. I dunno, but it has been done.
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Actually, not that I have intimate knowledge on it all, I fish with a couple bios. Las year they did a bunch of aging studies on whitefish. I supplied a few heads. They ARE looking into how to boost populations. Money and staff are issues. They haven't had a lot of success spawning whitefish and I'm told they are very hard to live trap. I was told that when enquiring why they didn't transplant adults into likely viable waters. Another bio told me to make noise, ie start contacting the commissioner on a regular basis. I DO know a lake that was illegally stocked in the seventies with them and DID have a self perpetuating population until recently. NOW there are clouds of smelt everywhere and the belief is the smelt a simple eating all the spawn and fry.... No small fish, anymore. Maybe one way is a similar program of catching adults and transplanting a couple hundred of them into waters with promising habitat. I dunno, but it has been done.
I know nothing about whitefish so I can’t comment on that.
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I know nothing about whitefish so I can’t comment on that.
I've just been focusing on them the past few years. They seem the most cahllngeing quarry, though I understand browns are a tough catch. I really don't like eating trout that much. I focus on food staples. Whitefish fit the challenge and table faire niche very well. Friggin t catchogue keep bothering though. They are toooo easy to catch but my dogs like em. :whistle: :icefish:
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What is the water quality in the Whitefish area?
What is the ideal pH of water for fish?
While ideal pH levels for fish are 7-8 (fish blood has a pH of 7.4) ²⁰, most fish can adapt to the pH level of their environment (6.0-9.0) as long as there are no dramatic fluctuations. A dramatic fluctuation is considered a shift in pH of 1.4 (up or down) ²². For saltwater fish, the pH of water should remain between 7.5 and 8.5 ⁹.
pH of Water - Environmental Measurement Systems
www.fondriest.com/environmental-measurements/param…
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Lmao this is one of my biggest pet peevs I always bring up with my buddies. Those surveys are a complete joke. The newest ones are 20 years old.
How am I supposed to take any of that report seriously when the lake survey maps are as old as my grandma? And no mention of pike at all in that report. Complete JOKE.
The survey maps are a joke ! There is many body of waters that now have Rainbows, Splake, Etc. that don’t even list them as species. The stocking reports don’t match up with the same body of water.
As far as the Whitefish they are a ghost to me. I have never traveled to Grand lake to catch them. It is a shame they are not in Sebago Lake anymore.
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The survey maps are a joke ! There is many body of waters that now have Rainbows, Splake, Etc. that don’t even list them as species. The stocking reports don’t match up with the same body of water.
As far as the Whitefish they are a ghost to me. I have never traveled to Grand lake to catch them. It is a shame they are not in Sebago Lake anymore.
Its a damn shame really. I wish the state would spend more time and money on USEFUL tools for us anglers and taxpayers.
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in the late 90's they stripped eggs from a few lakes that had great whitefish populations. grew them out in the hatcheries and stocked them into st. froid up here for several years. none grew to the min. length limit of 16in. and the lake they took the eggs from now has no whitefish anymore. Teampar and i fished it 2 years ago and caught a ton of stunted togue and 1 trout. this same spot 20 yrs ago had huge togue. brookies and whitefish in abundance. i dont have much faith in I.F.W. too many politicians calling the shots and tying their hands. its a damned shame! seeing how government is so out of control it doesnt suprise me.
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jacksmelt71 You are right on about what has been going on over the years. They state is only concerned about income not maintaining proper health of woods and waters in our state,
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in the late 90's they stripped eggs from a few lakes that had great whitefish populations. grew them out in the hatcheries and stocked them into st. froid up here for several years. none grew to the min. length limit of 16in. and the lake they took the eggs from now has no whitefish anymore. Teampar and i fished it 2 years ago and caught a ton of stunted togue and 1 trout. this same spot 20 yrs ago had huge togue. brookies and whitefish in abundance. i dont have much faith in I.F.W. too many politicians calling the shots and tying their hands. its a damned shame! seeing how government is so out of control it doesnt suprise me.
NH did something similar with smelt in the 50-70's on Winnisquam with smelt eggs to stock Winni. They destroyed the whitefish populations on Winni and also destroyed Black Brook smelt spawning sites on Winnisquam! I'm sure they'll still maintain what they did was successful. one border lake I fish has been losing it's fisheries for the past 20 years. I haven't caught a white perch there and most lake trout look like pickerel. One thing that has blossomed over the past decade is flocks of loons... go figure another success story they'll gloat about.
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Whitefish are hard to raise in a hatchery, at least that is what IFW will tell you. Ontario has a very successful hatchery program for whitefish. It can be done. The problem is IFW is centered on brook trout and landlocked salmon. Period. Whitefish are a low interest, winter time fishery that is not going to compete with brook trout and salmon. Its not water quality, that is the issue. Lake trout, smelts and water levels over spawning shoals are where the issue lies.
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Whitefish are hard to raise in a hatchery, at least that is what IFW will tell you. Ontario has a very successful hatchery program for whitefish. It can be done. The problem is IFW is centered on brook trout and landlocked salmon. Period. Whitefish are a low interest, winter time fishery that is not going to compete with brook trout and salmon. Its not water quality, that is the issue. Lake trout, smelts and water levels over spawning shoals are where the issue lies.
"Survival and Growth of Lake Whitefish from Two Stocking Strategies in Lake Simcoe, Ontario" "Abstract
To determine the more efficient stocking strategy for lake whitefish Coregonus clupeaformis in Lake Simcoe, Ontario, we compared growth and survival of fish stocked as fall fingerlings and as spring yearlings. Paired lots were stocked in April and October from the 1986 to 1991 year-classes. Survival and growth of fish from the two rearing practices were indexed as the relative abundance and length of 6-year-old lake whitefish captured with trap nets during fall spawning runs from 1992 to 1997. No difference in relative abundance or length between lake whitefish stocked at 6 months of age and those stocked at 12 months of age was detected. This contradicts results reported for many other fish species, which have exhibited greater survival rates when stocked as yearlings rather than fingerlings. As a result of these findings, all lake whitefish stocked into Lake Simcoe are stocked in the fall when the fish are 6 months of age, thus freeing up limited hatchery space for other purposes. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/M03-047.1?journalCode=ujfm20
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Whitefish are hard to raise in a hatchery, at least that is what IFW will tell you. Ontario has a very successful hatchery program for whitefish. It can be done. The problem is IFW is centered on brook trout and landlocked salmon. Period. Whitefish are a low interest, winter time fishery that is not going to compete with brook trout and salmon. Its not water quality, that is the issue. Lake trout, smelts and water levels over spawning shoals are where the issue lies.
100% agree. Until the state stops focusing their management goals on stocked brook trout, you won’t see any focus on whitefish etc.
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Just conjecturing... Maybe stocking when the fish are too big for smelt to eat en masse is a good strategy. fry are the most vulnerable for sure... Not to mention smelt feasting on spawn, like bees on blueberry blossoms. I'm going to start squeaking a bit to IFW. It'll be fun anyway..
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100% agree. Until the state stops focusing their management goals on stocked brook trout, you won’t see any focus on whitefish etc.
It would be interesting to see the state focus more on self-sustaining fish populations. They seem to be doing this to a degree with brook trout, BUT stocking "put-and-take" brook trout in warm water species waterbodies always seems, to me, foolish at best...
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It would be interesting to see the state focus more on self-sustaining fish populations. They seem to be doing this to a degree with brook trout, BUT stocking "put-and-take" brook trout in warm water species waterbodies always seems, to me, foolish at best...
Should they focus their resources on other things? Absolutely. However, one could say that they are supporting bass growth rates by feeding them well, and as a bass angler I'm ok with that. ;D There's a reason why the largest bass/state records have come from oligotrophic lakes - Trout/salmon and Smelt are fattier and more nutrient dense than shiners (although they are close at larger sizes), perch, and panfish (not to factor out that bass most important food, crayfish, thrive in the colder and cleaner oligotrophic lakes).
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It would be interesting to see the state focus more on self-sustaining fish populations. They seem to be doing this to a degree with brook trout, BUT stocking "put-and-take" brook trout in warm water species waterbodies always seems, to me, foolish at best...
Totally agree
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Whitefish are hard to raise in a hatchery, at least that is what IFW will tell you. Ontario has a very successful hatchery program for whitefish. It can be done. The problem is IFW is centered on brook trout and landlocked salmon. Period. Whitefish are a low interest, winter time fishery that is not going to compete with brook trout and salmon. Its not water quality, that is the issue. Lake trout, smelts and water levels over spawning shoals are where the issue lies.
SAM requested, through Senator King, a $5,000,000 earmark to go to IF&W to expand production of salmon hatcheries and to enhance lake whitefish, arctic charr, and other species. It was not funded.
Also to say that IF&W doesn't survey lakes and ponds on an annual basis is blatantly false. Just because they haven't updated the lake survey maps doesn't mean they don't do it.
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SAM requested, through Senator King, a $5,000,000 earmark to go to IF&W to expand production of salmon hatcheries and to enhance lake whitefish, arctic charr, and other species. It was not funded.
Also to say that IF&W doesn't survey lakes and ponds on an annual basis is blatantly false. Just because they haven't updated the lake survey maps doesn't mean they don't do it.
Fair enough but why haven’t any of the online lake maps been updated? No excuse for that IMO. The general public should have that info.
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I don't disagree but that is not what you and others said.
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I don't disagree but that is not what you and others said.
I was referring strictly to what was available online.
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I don't disagree but that is not what you and others said.
If we were wrong, so be it. Learning from and acknowledging your mistakes is part of being human. Somehow though that seems even worse, that they are doing the work but not being transparent about it and/or not getting that information out to the public (as DIFWs objective is to be stewards of Maine's natural floral and faunal resources for the people of Maine). Example: https://www.maine.gov/ifw/docs/lake-survey-maps/piscataquis/schoodic_lake.pdf
The fact that one of Maine's more prominent cold water fisheries is represented by a 69 (nice) year old revision to a 72 year old map, especially if they have surveyed it decennially at the very least, is absolutely batschitt insane.
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Another way to look at the proper way to take care of our woodlands. Compare all land to Farmland, Farmers know it is necessary to fertilize and lime the soil to make it necessary for crops to grow over fertilize or under Lime to keep PH at proper level will create a poor crow. What do loggers do to keep land Healthy?? Allowing excessive tree cutting has damaged our lakes streams and the ocean. Now everyone wants to blame wrong species of fish or over harvesting of fish.
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No disrespect woodchip, but its not water quality. The lakes that have or had whitefish in them still have either brook trout, togue or salmon in them. They still have smelt populations that are self sustaining. Moosehead has self sustaining brook trout, you think it has a water quality problem? Sebago provides drinking water to half of southern maine, not water quality.
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https://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/fishing/profiles/round-whitefish.html (https://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/fishing/profiles/round-whitefish.html)
http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/cek7/round_whitefish.html (http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/cek7/round_whitefish.html)
There's lots of info out there on whitefish. These links are for round, rather than lake, whitefish but they are very similar. I linked these because they're short, concise reads. More detailed studies are available.
The points raised are similar to what's being discussed in this thread...
-predation/competition by SM bass, perch, togue, cusk and smelt
-low ph water
I agree with woodchip that acidifying the lakes is a problem. Both from acid rain and logging. Many Maine lakes have close to neutral ph (around 7) but moderate-low alkalinity so they don't have the ability to buffer a heavy acid rain dump or low ph rain/snow runoff from the logged areas in their drainage basin. One of the most studied Maine lakes is Moosehead, data is available here:
https://www.lakesofmaine.org/lake-water-quality.html?m=0390 (https://www.lakesofmaine.org/lake-water-quality.html?m=0390)
Note the ph and alkalinity values in the 2018 data pulldowns on the right side of the screen. ph is right around 7, alkalinity below 10. Alkalinity values below 20 are pretty much insignificant in terms of buffering an acid influx event. The water in the lake is otherwise pretty "clean", other than beaver fever or similar, the water might be considered potable, and treatable for public water supply. Anyway, low ph may not be the biggest problem to whitefish in Maine lakes, but it could be a contributing factor. I wish the state luck if they try again to reintroduce whitefish, they're a pretty neat fish which I'd like to catch.
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blacktrap You must be a commercial logger or connected to one.
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blacktrap You must be a commercial logger or connected to one.
blacktrap knows more about whitefish than most everyone in the state. Aside from that, maybe the participants in this thread can begin squeaking the wheel loudly at IFW!!! I'm going to myself, soon. First I have some shellfish squeaking to do around here and with DMR... Glad I ain't bored!!! hehe
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It's great That we can all put in our 2% worth. Are clam shell getting more Brittle???
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Shutterstock
The world’s shellfish are under threat as our oceans become more acidic
Published: January
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It's great That we can all put in our 2% worth. Are clam shell getting more Brittle???
They are not... Green crabs ARE the biggest issue. To a degree, so far, the acidification effecting clams is the setting of spat on the flats. Acidity in the upper most surface can dissolve or harm shell development on post planktonic juveniles. BUT and Having said that, Consider the fact clams settle at about 1mm. Green crabs set at 2 - 3 mm and immediately start feeding on anything smaller or similar + in size. Between those impinging factors and other predation and weather impacts along with new species following warming waters, soft shell calms/steamers/Mya arenaria are having a hard time making it.. PREDATION, AT THIS POINT, IS THE BIGGEST DETRIMENT TO MYA...
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It's great That we can all put in our 2% worth. Are clam shell getting more Brittle???
SO, It would appear predation is the largest factor effecting whitefish AND clams....
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predation is acid water
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Poor fisheries management and increased angler pressure equals poor fishing all around. This is what I have observed over the last couple years. The future looks dismal unless something drastic happens.
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Poor fisheries management and increased angler pressure equals poor fishing all around. This is what I have observed over the last couple years. The future looks dismal unless something drastic happens.
I'm not sure whether it's poor management and/or fishing pressure, but it's been dismal on Moosehead and a couple of other lakes. In over 50 years, last year and this year are the worst two years in memory. Both open water and on the ice. I fish a lot so I catch a large number over time, but daily numbers were way down. There's still togue but salmon were in short supply. I don't target brookies too often so I don't have a feel for them. The average fish were smaller (but not racers/stunted) which might also indicate overharvest. I'd like to think it's related to the drought, but I guess it's more likely the fish are being hammered. The internet directs everyone to Moosehead, the overall number of guys on the ice on a weekend is pretty impressive. Not good for Moosehead, but maybe it spares some of the lesser known lakes.
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If a Farmer does not maintain his garden and keep PH high the crops will get worst every year. Blame over fishing or togue or poor management.
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i believe its a combination of eveything mentioned here. logging being one of the worse effecting water quality. intoduction of non natives that compete with them for food/ space and failed attempts to fix the problem and sometimes making it worse. even in the lakes that still have them the clock is ticking. one other thing that really affects them is mid summer when they are concentrated in deep holes. i know guys that anchor on a large school and jig up alot of them. even if released when they are brought up thru that warm surface water , they die. so a couple guys jig up 30 whites just killed all 30. why i wont fish for them in the summer.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/conserving-forests-is-the-fastest-most-effective-way-to-stabilize-our-climate/ar-AAVjpe8?ocid=msedgdhp
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its sad that we cant reach a compromise. stop clearcuts and do selective cutting. clearcutting a whole hardwood mountain and replanting all softwood is not good for anything except the landowner. i know its their land but their practices are affecting everything downstream. irving is the worst offender here and sen. troy jackson lets them get away with it because hes one of them! see the problem here. sen. collins is no better! 40yrs of clearcutting leaves a area already with very little topsoil, with even less with each cutting. soon the new trees replanted wont have the soil to grow as its so depleted or not there at all. will be a stunted, barren wasteland and they own hundreds of thousands of acres up here. what animals can survive in that? feeder brooks and springs will dry up and with no trees to shade them , temps will spike in bigger brooks and streams. might as well stock bass and carp in our lakes up here. only fish that will survive that.
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They sure need to give it more thought, Years ago they would fine great Northern for cutting to close to ponds, But cutting was intentional as the trees were worth more than the fine so they did not hesitate to cut all the big beautiful groves to the waters edge.
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If you take a plane ride over northern Maine, the extent of the clearcutting is alarming. I believe two things are providing the impetus for accelerated cutting in the north woods.
1. The obvious one is the price of, and demand for, lumber and other forest products.
2. The forest owners know that the Federal Government, led by Angus King and his Senate committee, intends to take the north woods as a park. Obviously there would be "Fair Market Value" payment for it, or a huge tax writeoff. But there would likely be no more or very limited logging. Get the wood while you can. Can't wait to hear about restrictions on fishing/icefishing, hunting, snowsledding. Access for sportsmen has been the deal with the devil for generations, can't say that I have any gripes in that regard.
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Jeeze Woodchip do you work for alka seltzer? "The acidity! The Acidity!" "It Killed Sebago" Now I don't mean to be mean and pick on you personally but lets take a look at some numbers. There is a lot of decent public information available on the Lakes of Maine website. So lets take a look a some numbers rather than any personal attacks or vague claims.
https://www.lakesofmaine.org/lake-chemistry.html?m=5786
And once you search around and find the pH page, that can be swiped, and plotted in excel. Of course remember the higher numbers are "less" acidic, and 7 is neutral.
So... the Ph of Sebago over the years:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ftchnKmn/Picture1.png) (https://postimg.cc/ftchnKmn)
Is it getting more acidic? Less acidic? No trend?
I don't know. Hard to conclude overall. It looks like maybe an upward trend through the 70s 80s 90s. Possibly that was due to environmental regulations kicking in and the end of acid rain and such. Since then, data becomes sparse. It might be going down or might be much more of a "No trend." The data that we do have certainly seems to be in the "happy" ballpark for most species of fish.
"Ya but what was it historically? The whitefish were gone or just about gone by the 70s!" - Yeah, you are right. I don't know what the pH was in historical times. I don't know what it was in the 50s and 60s. I'm not speculating to those, just presenting some hard data that is easy to find and publicly available.
"Ya but thats not what it's doing on my lake!" - Yeah, you are probably right. This is one lake. Down East Maine is certainly a lot more acidic and suffering more lingering effects of forestry and acid rain. I'm not trying to say acidity is not the problem ANYWHERE, But I am saying its probably not the problem EVERYWHERE.
As the gangsters say: Mo' lakes, Mo' problems!
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https://www.lakesofmaine.org/lake-chemistry.html?m=5786
And once you search around and find the pH page, that can be swiped, and plotted in excel. Of course remember the higher numbers are "less" acidic, and 7 is neutral.
So... the Ph of Sebago over the years:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ftchnKmn/Picture1.png) (https://postimg.cc/ftchnKmn)
"Ya but what was it historically? The whitefish were gone or just about gone by the 70s!" - Yeah, you are right. I don't know what the pH was in historical times. I don't know what it was in the 50s and 60s. I'm not speculating to those, just presenting some hard data that is easy to find and publicly available.
"Ya but thats not what it's doing on my lake!" - Yeah, you are probably right. This is one lake. Down East Maine is certainly a lot more acidic and suffering more lingering effects of forestry and acid rain. I'm not trying to say acidity is not the problem ANYWHERE, But I am saying its probably not the problem EVERYWHERE.
Thanks MadSledder!!! Great info and take on the issue!!!
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What happened in Sebago to White fish in Sebago in two years later the same thing happened to Moosehead lake, then a couple of years later Chesuncook Caribou Lake started to loose their White fish, There was a lot of talk about the acid fallout from our southern states at that time.in the Northern areas weather frontals start to swing east and lakes north of Chesuncook seem to not be affected as much. so lets not Blame Togue as cause for fish loss in Sebago. All other lakes in Northern Lakes Had Togue and Salmon in them for ever and they are having same problem.
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What happened in Sebago to White fish in Sebago in two years later the same thing happened to Moosehead lake, then a couple of years later Chesuncook Caribou Lake started to loose their White fish, There was a lot of talk about the acid fallout from our southern states at that time.in the Northern areas weather frontals start to swing east and lakes north of Chesuncook seem to not be affected as much. so lets not Blame Togue as cause for fish loss in Sebago. All other lakes in Northern Lakes Had Togue and Salmon in them for ever and they are having same problem.
Togue may not be the number one problem but in a case like sebago they are a HUGE problem. Massive amounts of small togue eat everything in sight leaving no feed aka smelt for salmon to thrive.
We have a huge problem in this state with fisheries management. Too many special interests and bs POLITICS involved. The biologists can only do so much.
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Chesuncook and Caribou lake has a no limit on Salmon . why? togue have been in there forever. Its great to go home with 50 Salmon for the smoker.
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Another way to look at the proper way to take care of our woodlands. Compare all land to Farmland, Farmers know it is necessary to fertilize and lime the soil to make it necessary for crops to grow over fertilize or under Lime to keep PH at proper level will create a poor crow. What do loggers do to keep land Healthy?? Allowing excessive tree cutting has damaged our lakes streams and the ocean. Now everyone wants to blame wrong species of fish or over harvesting of fish.
You state many things as if they are facts, when they aren't really.
Smelt were introduced into many lakes to feed the salmon and other game fish. Whitefish live a long time but produce few youngs. Smelts eat the young whitefish. Lake trout were added to many lakes. They eat whitefish. There aren't many whitefish left. Hmmm....
In 2012 the IFW leadership adopted a lake trout plan for Sebago Lake. They thought setting up a slot would allow lake trout to get bigger and the bigger lake trout would eat the smaller lake trout and self remedy the over population of lake trout. This was taken from a program developed in the mid west. It worked in that the bigger lake trout ate the smaller lake trout. However, they also ate all the smelts and salmon and created a huge overpopulation of larger lake trout in Sebago. Which has made the salmon fishing suck. Hmmmm.......
In the 1800 there were firewood shortages throughout New England. Most of the land in From Southern Maine South was farming fields. Stating that current logging practices in Southern Maine are ruining fishing here is plain silly, and pretty much without merit. The lakes ponds rivers and streams are much much healthier and cleaner than they were in the 50's onward well into the 2000's Hmmmm...
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Moosekill Dream on!!!!!!!!!
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Trying to speculate or solve why whitefish disappeared from various lakes isnt going to bring them back. The water quality of all those lakes is good enough to support whitefish. If people want them back again the only way that will happen is to somehow have a seriously well funded stocking program. It isnt rocket science, Ontario does it, Just going to take alot of money and resolve to do it.
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Moosekill Dream on!!!!!!!!!
Or we can just make stuff up and pretend we know stuff. Spouting nonsense on ice fishing forums may make you happy, but it doesn't fix the problem. It isn't the water quality. It isn't the logging. It is the smelts, and as Blacktrap posted, the only way to fix it is to introduce stocking programs to bring them back.
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It is the water quality. and until we admit to it , conditions will go down, Acid fallout!!!! it happened in a time condition from Sebago to Moosehead to Chesuncook, Caribou, Ripogenious , and at that point in time and direction of frontal system. it is a fact.
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Trying to speculate or solve why whitefish disappeared from various lakes isnt going to bring them back. The water quality of all those lakes is good enough to support whitefish. If people want them back again the only way that will happen is to somehow have a seriously well funded stocking program. It isnt rocket science, Ontario does it, Just going to take alot of money and resolve to do it.
Yep, There needs to be a concerted effort... Stocking, including stocking adults that have been live trapped, would be a good beginning. A lake I know was "stocked" by locals with hook and line caught whitefish in the seventies. Now, only large older fish remain. They had established a spawning population but they apparently no longer spawn successfully. A bio I fish with has caught them on early ice and seen a few remaining eggs in the fish he kept. Meanwhile, I have seen dense and wide clouds of smelt in multiple holes jigging there. A couple of times I saw this in more than half the "run and gun" jigging holes I drilled. Smeltig is not allowed in the water body. The whitefish originally came from West Grand, I'm told.
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I have discussed whitefish with the biologists who study them. Biggest problem is the smelts.
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I have discussed whitefish with the biologists who study them. Biggest problem is the smelts.
YEP! That's what i hear fro those folks too. Sebago likely has other issues along with smelt.
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Why do you suppose they stopped dipping smelts in the spring everywhere?????????
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Why do you suppose they stopped dipping smelts in the spring everywhere?????????
Not everywhere.... BUT, to feed salmon and togue.... mostly. Whitefish are not a priority for IFW, not a revenue source for fisheries economies.... Places where whitefish were once a lot more numerous or still existed were stocked with smelt FOR trout salmon and togue forage.
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In all your large lakes Smelts were never stocked. They ended up there the same way salmon . got land locked!!!
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Atlantic salmon became landlocked salmon when their migration routes were cut off by the glaciers in the last ice age. They were stranded in a few lakes where they could no longer leave.
Rainbow smelts were found in certain lakes in Maine but are generaly sea run, but not always. Now they have spread throughout the state and while they are great feed for certain game fish, they also eat whitefish eggs and therefore, the whitefish are declining thoroughout the state.
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Atlantic salmon became landlocked salmon when their migration routes were cut off by the glaciers in the last ice age. They were stranded in a few lakes where they could no longer leave.
Rainbow smelts were found in certain lakes in Maine but are generaly sea run, but not always. Now they have spread throughout the state and while they are great feed for certain game fish, they also eat whitefish eggs and therefore, the whitefish are declining thoroughout the state.
I wonder if there are such water bodies where smelt are protected where harvesting might be allowed to cut back the smelt issue. ALSO... Are there water bodies w/o whitefish have suitable water quality, forage and low or non-existent smelt populations. I think Long Pond on MDI might fit the later description.
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Sebago is an example of a lake where landlocks occur naturally, and where there was a whitefish population. Were smelt in the lake naturally? I haven't been there for many years, did I read somewhere that the forage in Sebago right now is alewives?
So if the smelt are removed from a lake with salmon, togue, brookies and whitefish, what becomes the forage? The whitefish? I know some would prefer that most lakes have only brookies and whitefish, but just curious what the consequences of removing the smelt is.
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smelts have been in Sebago from day one , they were landlocked like Salmon. fishermen were allowed to dip smelts with net in spring , but spring smelt season was canceled because they were declining like Salmon and White fish they have blamed poor fish growth on all other reasons ,they have some control over. not the real true reason PH drop Acid fallout ,more septic systems near water shed, Land fills with in a 1/2 mile of lake, more timber cutting in watershed. The state will not lime water shed because it costs money, Lakes and forests should be handled like the farmers handle their gardens.
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smelts have been in Sebago from day one , they were landlocked like Salmon. fishermen were allowed to dip smelts with net in spring , but spring smelt season was canceled because they were declining like Salmon and White fish they have blamed poor fish growth on all other reasons ,they have some control over. not the real true reason PH drop Acid fallout ,more septic systems near water shed, Land fills with in a 1/2 mile of lake, more timber cutting in watershed. The state will not lime water shed because it costs money, Lakes and forests should be handled like the farmers handle their gardens.
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Sebago is an example of a lake where landlocks occur naturally, and where there was a whitefish population. Were smelt in the lake naturally? I haven't been there for many years, did I read somewhere that the forage in Sebago right now is alewives?
So if the smelt are removed from a lake with salmon, togue, brookies and whitefish, what becomes the forage? The whitefish? I know some would prefer that most lakes have only brookies and whitefish, but just curious what the consequences of removing the smelt is.
Smelts were in the lake for a long time. However lake trout and pike were not. Since I am not wearing a tin hat today, my guess would be the vast overpopulation of lake trout in Sebago upset the balance that naturally occured with salmon, smelt aand whitefish. Add to that the new inclusion of pike and reintroduction of alewives and the catch and release religion that has gripped many and made it very difficult to remove fish when needed and you end up with a bad situation for whitefish.
Whitefish live a long time and grow slowly but don't make lots of baby whitefish, so it doesn't take a lot to upset the apple cart.
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smelts have been in Sebago from day one , they were landlocked like Salmon. fishermen were allowed to dip smelts with net in spring , but spring smelt season was canceled because they were declining like Salmon and White fish they have blamed poor fish growth on all other reasons ,they have some control over. not the real true reason PH drop Acid fallout ,more septic systems near water shed, Land fills with in a 1/2 mile of lake, more timber cutting in watershed. The state will not lime water shed because it costs money, Lakes and forests should be handled like the farmers handle their gardens.
I agree that water quality is a player in some lakes, but probably not all, because water chemistry varies naturally in lakes across the state. If the biologists are saying the smelt are a major predator of whitefish eggs and/or fry, I'm willing to accept that as a reason for whitefish decline in certain lakes as well.
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smelting in spring was stopped before lake trout were stocked . Moosehead and Chesuncook lost there White fish and Togue have been in those lakes since day one, PH is the big reason .Admit it !!! bring water quality back and all fish will survive together.
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Smelts were in the lake for a long time. However lake trout and pike were not. Since I am not wearing a tin hat today, my guess would be the vast overpopulation of lake trout in Sebago upset the balance that naturally occured with salmon, smelt aand whitefish. Add to that the new inclusion of pike and reintroduction of alewives and the catch and release religion that has gripped many and made it very difficult to remove fish when needed and you end up with a bad situation for whitefish.
Whitefish live a long time and grow slowly but don't make lots of baby whitefish, so it doesn't take a lot to upset the apple cart.
I didn't know the stinklogs were in Sebago. Not a great addition.
Yes, agreed that C&R isn't always preferred. Fishing is management from a biologists perspective. If the management goal is removal of target sizes or species, C&R is counterproductive.
Perhaps it's just anecdotal, but of the lakes I enjoy fishing in across several NE states, the ones with more than a couple of piscevore predators tend to do poorly. Oneida Lake in NY is the exception. In Maine it seems that brookies and salmon generally do OK, add in togue and things can get whacky. Pike or rotenone have roughly equivalent outcomes. ;) I'm not counting whitefish because I understand they focus primarily on small benthic forage, rather than smelt, dace, shiners or alewives.
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smelting in spring was stopped before lake trout were stocked . Moosehead and Chesuncook lost there White fish and Togue have been in those lakes since day one, PH is the big reason .Admit it !!! bring water quality back and all fish will survive together.
I recall we discussed Moosehead water quality a month or two ago. Agreed, water quality may be a factor there. Remember however, a slightly depressed but stable ph by itself doesn't doom the fishery. If a lake has adequate alkalinity to buffer against acid shocks from runoff, the ph may remain stable enough to preserve the fishery. Moosehead has a ph of around 7 but low alkalinity, so it is probably susceptible to ph fluctuations. Many lakes in Maine are similar, it has a lot to do with the bedrock chemistry which in most of Maine is not calcareous.
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smelting in spring was stopped before lake trout were stocked . Moosehead and Chesuncook lost there White fish and Togue have been in those lakes since day one, PH is the big reason .Admit it !!! bring water quality back and all fish will survive together.
Whitefish almost completely dissapeared from Mooshead in the 60's, with just a few remaining into the early 70's. So when did the aliens change the water quality?