Lead Shot Ban

[Walltrout]

From your NRA:

Montana FWP Proposes Politically-Motivated Lead Shot Ban
It is Essential That Montana's Hunters Take A Stand in Opposition!
 
The Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks (FWP) is proposing to ban the use of lead shot for upland game bird hunting on Wildlife Management Areas (WMAs) as part of its 2010-2011 hunting season regulations http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/oppForPubCommentDefault.html  While FWP has provided no information as to why the ban is being proposed, this is a move straight out of the radical anti-hunting crowd's playbook.  The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) has called for a nationwide ban on the use of lead ammunition for all purposes.  The proposal by FWP moves them one step closer to this goal.  HSUS spends $120 million a year lobbying and litigating against our hunting rights.  Its President has said, "If we could shut down all sport hunting in a moment, we would."

The political nature of this proposed lead shot ban is clear. The NRA obtained information prepared within the Department that suggests the ban is being proposed as a symbolic gesture.  FWP admits there is little to no waterfowl present on many of the WMAs so the federal lead shot ban for waterfowl hunting is not at issue.  It acknowledges that lead-alternative shot is less available and is more expensive than lead shot.  Most importantly, there is no scientific evidence that upland game birds are ingesting lead shot on these WMAs or that it is having an adverse affect on game bird populations.
 
Comments are due Friday, January 22nd on the changes to the state's hunting regulations, including the addition of this new lead shot ban.  The NRA urges all hunters to submit comments to FWP in opposition to the expansion of the lead shot ban.  A short, simple note in opposition is sufficient.  The lack of any scientific evidence to justify the proposed ban suggests that this fight is going to be decided by popular support or opposition and rest assured that the anti-hunting radicals will be active.  In the end, this proposal is a symbolic gesture that only serves to continue the expansion of a lead ammunition ban to all hunting.  Science, not symbolism and politics, should drive good wildlife management decisions.

Please click the following link, http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N2CCH9R, and submit your comments under "15. Upland Game Bird hunting season comment, if any:" to make your voice heard! Comments may be copied and pasted into the dialogue box.  FWP reads these comments carefully, which will weigh heavily on the proposal's fate.  Comments on other proposals may also be submitted and it is vitally important that FWP hears from you.  Information about the proposals may be found at http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/oppForPubCommentDefault.html.

[IcemanZ]

Made my comments!  C'Mon guys it's very easy; just click the link @ the bottom of this post and say anything against this....got stop'em now before its to late!!!!!
Z

[fishinwithbrittanies]

So I already know you guys are going to get mad but here goes....
I really don't think that a lead shot ban is part of any anti-hunting propaganda and comparing the two is grasping at straws at best.  I am an avid hunter and I love hunting anytime I can go, but I am not going to get all fired up because they ban lead shot on WMA's.  First, the ban is just on WMA's.  If you don't want to spend the $$$ for steal or tungsten go hunt anywhere else.  Second, lead shot kills birds, that is a fact.  How many of you have signed pages and pages about lead paint when signing a mortgage---because lead is poisonous. Have you seen pictures, or actual birds with lead poisoning.  It's no way to go. 
Will it save many pheasants or huns who knows?  Is it really that big of a deal, I don't think so.  You can still hunt right?  How then, is this an anti-hunting bill?  "They" are just making you use non-poisonous shot instead of lead and only on WMAs.
I guess I'm not on board with feeling like my hunting rights are being taken away or threatened in any way.
When the open container law was changed a few years back everyone was angry screaming that their rights were being taken away.  Sure I guess they were, hopefully so that some other people's lives are saved.

[montanafishingr]

I actually respect you for voicing how you feel on this fishinwithbrittanies. Its possibly a very un popular opinion. I dont agree with it simply because lead shot is very effective. I would love to see a study done on the number of waterfowl wounded every year due to using steel shot as opposed to lead shot and compare that to the number killed by lead poisoning in the past. Not sure what the results would be. Just currious. On another note are you ready for your fishing tackle to quadruple or more in price when they take the next step and ban lead in fishing tackle. Its taking place in other states. It will come here. Count on it.

[andercee]

"It is a very unpopular opinion."   Exactly. Opinions are not good enough to impose a ban.  There needs to be scientific research to back this up.  As sportsmen and conservationists, if it is found that lead shot has an unintended effects on upland birds and other wildlife, we should find alternatives so that future generations have the same hunting opportunities that we have.  If there is the ban on lead shot, production on non-toxic shot will skyrocket, which will ultimately lead to much lower prices.

[Lamnidae]

I agree with Fishingwithbritannies and already buy tungsten fishing tackle whenever possible.  I'm also an avid sportsman, strongly support the 2d Amendment in all of its interpretations, yet pretty much do the opposite of whatever the NRA tells me to do. 

[mtjohn]

FWP gets their funding from hunting and fishing license sales, so the idea that they would do something that might be the start to a ban on hunting is ridiculous.
MT

[Walltrout]

The point I think some of you may have missed is this  "The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) has called for a nationwide ban on the use of lead ammunition for all purposes."  While the ban on WMAs might in reality have little effect on your hunting plans now, it gets HSUS foot in the door to for other bans.  Our rights never get taken away all at once because it would cause an uproar.  They are wittled away piece by piece until you have nothing left and you are an old man sitting around talking about the good ol days.  The younger generation will not know the difference.  This is why the NRA is clearly stating that this proposal is political in nature.  If it was just about using lead shot on WMAs then who cares, you can hunt other places.  However, this is about a bigger plan and bigger agenda.

[missoulafish]

Right on Nick!

[RobG]

The point I think some of you may have missed is this  "The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) has called for a nationwide ban on the use of lead ammunition for all purposes."  While the ban on WMAs might in reality have little effect on your hunting plans now, it gets HSUS foot in the door to for other bans.  Our rights never get taken away all at once because it would cause an uproar.  They are wittled away piece by piece until you have nothing left and you are an old man sitting around talking about the good ol days.  The younger generation will not know the difference.  This is why the NRA is clearly stating that this proposal is political in nature.  If it was just about using lead shot on WMAs then who cares, you can hunt other places.  However, this is about a bigger plan and bigger agenda.

I don't have any problem with people opposing this, but I totally disagree with you on the reason. Do you really think MFWP is bowing to the anti-hunters?? Not a chance. The antis oppose ballistic arrows and unfair chase too. NRA is just trying to scare up more dollars. I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to see this from them. This issue of banning lead was raised a few months ago and upset a lot of hunters, but I think they recognized it for what it really was... an attempt to reduce the amount of lead getting into the food chain.

Lead is slowly being phased out of all aspects of life. Acid conditions allow it to get into the rivers and will ultimately affect our ability to eat fish. It is turning out to be a big issue on the Oregon steelheading streams. Even bullets for deer hunting are starting to be scrutinized because fragments get into the edible meat. I still use lead, but I'm starting to recognize that things are changing... probably for the betterment of the people 100 years down the road.

rg

[fishinwithbrittanies]

Maybe your right.  Maybe it's a bigger agenda.  Maybe it gets their foot in the door for bigger issues.  I just don't see the parallels.  What I see is people on the far right and and people on the far left and no one willing to accept a compromise in the middle.  So long as people are tangled up arguing over details nothing gets done.  Let 'em keep bickering, that should ensure life goes on as we know it  .
You and I, as well as many others, know that hunting is a valuable tool in regards to resource management.  Who knows, there could be a day and I hope that day never comes where our hunting rights are threatened.  That would be a sad sad moment in our history.  How horrible would it be if we were unable to take our kids out duck hunting on cold crisp fall mornings.  Not being allowed to harvest deer or elk for our families would be a hard pill to swallow.  I see what your saying and this probably is some extreme left wing political strategy to take those rights away.  For me, and this is only my opinion, making the jump from a nationwide lead shot ban, which for all we know might save some of the critters we seek, to taking away the traditions so many of us hold dear is a bit of a stretch.  For now I don't feel threatened.

[Dinga LING]

Maybe you should look at it this way.  Lead shot or lead sinkers are easily made at home.  If there is a ban and lead is no longer avail we will be forced to purchase tungston or steal.  Can you make your own shot, sinkers or bullets from tungston?  Anti gun nuts will be happy about that.

[Walltrout]

Maybe your right.  Maybe it's a bigger agenda.  Maybe it gets their foot in the door for bigger issues.  I just don't see the parallels.  What I see is people on the far right and and people on the far left and no one willing to accept a compromise in the middle.  So long as people are tangled up arguing over details nothing gets done.  Let 'em keep bickering, that should ensure life goes on as we know it  .
You and I, as well as many others, know that hunting is a valuable tool in regards to resource management.  Who knows, there could be a day and I hope that day never comes where our hunting rights are threatened.  That would be a sad sad moment in our history.  How horrible would it be if we were unable to take our kids out duck hunting on cold crisp fall mornings.  Not being allowed to harvest deer or elk for our families would be a hard pill to swallow.  I see what your saying and this probably is some extreme left wing political strategy to take those rights away.  For me, and this is only my opinion, making the jump from a nationwide lead shot ban, which for all we know might save some of the critters we seek, to taking away the traditions so many of us hold dear is a bit of a stretch.  For now I don't feel threatened.

I guess I am humble enough to know that there is a chance that I may be wrong on this whole issue.  But there is also a chance that I am right.  If I am wrong and the proposal is nixed due to my actions, nothing changes and nothing is lost.  If I am wrong and the proposal is approved, then it's not a big deal because I was wrong. 

However, if I am right and I do nothing there is a huge risk to my lifestyle in the long run.  If I am right and the proposal is disapproved, then great.  One small victory in the war against the anti-hunting lobby. 

I hope I am wrong on this issue.

[holden222]

Have fun buying shot for that re-loader if this passes. With no statistical facts about any of this I would be following the NRA's lead here. Also there is nothing in the letter from the NRA asking for a donation. They just simply asked for you to supply a certain website with your opinion on the matter. Not that tought but that's just my .02

[RobG]

I am mostly worried that lead hats will be replaced by the more expensive and less effective tin-foil ones  

Just kidding!!!! I respect the people on both sides of this difficult issue.

rg

[RobG]

Have fun buying shot for that re-loader if this passes. With no statistical facts about any of this I would be following the NRA's lead here. Also there is nothing in the letter from the NRA asking for a donation. They just simply asked for you to supply a certain website with your opinion on the matter. Not that tought but that's just my .02

Actually I was just reading two papers about how lead shot was getting into the bloodstream of hunters. That is a bit of a different issue, but related.

[Walltrout]

I am mostly worried that lead hats will be replaced by the more expensive and less effective tin-foil ones  

Just kidding!!!! I respect the people on both sides of this difficult issue.

rg

That would suck!! Maybe we could use hats made of tungsten.  

[wirehairman]

I don't believe the Montana Fish and Game is pandering to a larger political agenda with the lead shot ban but do know it is in fact an integral piece of the overall approach for several anti-hunting groups.

Personally, I oppose any lead shot bans because they are the first step to a complete ban of lead, as happened in the "condor's range" of southern California.  I only hunt big game with my traditional muzzleloaders because the 300 yard shots with my .308 ceased to have any appeal to me.  A complete lead ban would mean I cannot hunt with my traditional muzzleloaders, and I am 99% sure I would give up big game hunting at that point and not pass the tradition onto my soon to be born son to boot.  

I realize that I'm most assuradely in the minority with my personal interests, but it does illustrate how a lead ban can help the anti-hunting groups achieve their goals.

[RobG]

I don't believe the Montana Fish and Game is pandering to a larger political agenda with the lead shot ban but do know it is in fact an integral piece of the overall approach for several anti-hunting groups.

Personally, I oppose any lead shot bans because they are the first step to a complete ban of lead, as happened in the "condor's range" of southern California.  I only hunt big game with my traditional muzzleloaders because the 300 yard shots with my .308 ceased to have any appeal to me.  A complete lead ban would mean I cannot hunt with my traditional muzzleloaders, and I am 99% sure I would give up big game hunting at that point and not pass the tradition onto my soon to be born son to boot.  

I don't have a muzzleloader since no season, although I really like how they shoot. But are you sure it just wouldn't be a matter of using a different barrel? Painful and less traditional, but no reason to quit. I force myself to sneak up on the animals rather than take the long shot.

[allan.brainard]

Well I am going to jump in on the hot topic of the day. I grew up in a family that melted lead and cast our own sinkers, even cast 38 special rounds for plinking. While I have fond memories of doing these things with my father, I know that lead is a toxic material. The regulations are all about protecting us and our environment, not taking away our guns. The use of lead for anything is as outdated as pouring used motor oil in the alley. I for one gave up the lead shot years ago, and have been shooting upland birds with steel. Lead is toxic....and it's day is over.

[Dinga LING]

Allan,   Isn't it wonderful that you have that choice.  We would appreciate your support so that we can make our choices instead of it being rammed down our throats.  Thanks

[wirehairman]

I don't have a muzzleloader since no season, although I really like how they shoot. But are you sure it just wouldn't be a matter of using a different barrel? Painful and less traditional, but no reason to quit. I force myself to sneak up on the animals rather than take the long shot.

I am sure.  The traditional lead round ball is part of the package for me.  I have no interest in turning my muzzle loader into a .30-.30 with in-line ignition and saboted modern bullets.

[fishinwithbrittanies]

sorry gotta get in this one again!!

You would seriously give up hunting because you can't shot a lead ball.  Hunting has just lost all fun because you can't use your muzzleloader?  You wouldn't "pass on the tradition" to your kids because of a frickin lead shot ban.  Sorry I think that's worse than the original threat of this thread.  I had said earlier that nobody can meet in the middle and everything is based on extremes, here you go.  I am so sorry that you can't enjoy a hunt with your .308 at 300 yds, but so many of us do.  Have you considered archery? Pistols?  Ooops gotta watch out for lead there too.  To say that you wouldn't take a kid hunting for any reason is ridiculous to me, lead balls, WMAs, solid copper bullets muzzleloaders whatever........ taking kids out is what this should all be about.  Passing on the traditions so a threat like this is stomped out immediately by responsible, EDUCATED, informed citizens should be the goal of all of us posting on this thread.

I can't really say anymore about this......sorta beat it into the ground but please don't give up hunting because of something like this.  Don't deprive your kids of this wonderful privilege because you don't think there is enough "sport" in it.  There is so much more to it than our own selfish reasoning.

[Aaron072]

I would have to agree on that.
there shouldn't be anything to stop passing hunting and fishing on to our kids

[wirehairman]

sorry gotta get in this one again!!

You would seriously give up hunting because you can't shot a lead ball.  Hunting has just lost all fun because you can't use your muzzleloader?  You wouldn't "pass on the tradition" to your kids because of a frickin lead shot ban.  Sorry I think that's worse than the original threat of this thread.  I had said earlier that nobody can meet in the middle and everything is based on extremes, here you go.  I am so sorry that you can't enjoy a hunt with your .308 at 300 yds, but so many of us do.  Have you considered archery? Pistols?  Ooops gotta watch out for lead there too.  To say that you wouldn't take a kid hunting for any reason is ridiculous to me, lead balls, WMAs, solid copper bullets muzzleloaders whatever........ taking kids out is what this should all be about.  Passing on the traditions so a threat like this is stomped out immediately by responsible, EDUCATED, informed citizens should be the goal of all of us posting on this thread.

I can't really say anymore about this......sorta beat it into the ground but please don't give up hunting because of something like this.  Don't deprive your kids of this wonderful privilege because you don't think there is enough "sport" in it.  There is so much more to it than our own selfish reasoning.

I said I would give up big game hunting, which I almost did until muzzleloading resparked my interest.

No matter what happens I will still chase birds with my wirehairs at every opportunity, lead shot ban or not, and will drag junior along as much as possible.  I will also spend as much time as I can in the spring hunting gobblers, but the enjoyment will be much diminished if I cannot use my muzzleloading shotgun.