"Random" lake access???

[Pail Rider]

Just read through Dispy's thread, and didn't want to hijack it, so I figured I'd start a new one.  Not trying to get anyone fired up, or stirring the pot by any means.  Just have a question, and would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

So, I am a landowner, my land is not posted.  Several people hunt my land, some have asked permission, some have not.  No biggie, it is NH, land is open to hunt unless otherwise posted.  I hunt other properties...some places I have permission, some I do not.  I have never been asked to leave a piece of property, nor have I ever asked anyone to leave my property.

Why is it different for accessing water?  If a lakefront home's land is not posted for no trespassing, why can't I park off the road and walk across their land to get to the lake?  Again, not trying to start a battle, just wondering why there is a double standard when it comes to lake access vs deer woods access.

[Dispy]

Excellent question. so to start here are two links, one for NH and the other regarding Maine...there are a few more to which I will post up soon >>

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Inside_FandG/public_water_advisory_bd.htm

http://www.accessingthemainecoast.com/common_law_and_statutes/common_law_and_statutes.shtml

[jimmyrig]

That is a good comparison, I am lucky enough to have lakefront property (family camp). I have never refused access to anyone who has asked, but would probably not appreciate it if someone helped themselves. I would compare my property to a 1 acre well maintained yard, which is very different than just a wooded lot or even a parcel of land undeveloped in which you would hunt on.

I think most lakefront property's are like ours, very different than a vacant wood lot with many acres. We allow snow machine access to lake and I have always allowed access to anyone that asked. But to just walk on someone's property or "yard" so to speak, would be pretty ignorant if you ask me. Especially when you take care of it, maintain it, and in our case, pay 12,000 a year in property taxes.

Most people would not want people randomly walking in thier backyard and hanging around, not much different on the waterfront.

Jimmy

[Mr.Harry]

Very interesting question. I'm a hunter too, and have never even thought about that. I think it has something to do with The State Of NH's 'outlook' on the history of hunting in the state, and it being a 'communal' means of sustenance as well as sport. Not that fishing for sustenance should be considered any differently, but in this example it is. In a very round about way it kind of ties in with the whole 'live free or die' motto. I've seen it discussed on a hunting forum and that is what I took from it.

[sweet lou]

I have had people come down to the lake and ask me not to fish in front of there property. Then it becomes a matter of how nice they are when they ask me.

[Pail Rider]

Just to be clear Jimmy, I would never walk across anyone's lawn.  In this hypothetical, I would walk inside a woodline, not between houses. 

[jimmyrig]

I understand bud, but you would be surprised what I have seen.

[jimmyrig]

I have had people come down to the lake and ask me not to fish in front of there property. Then it becomes a matter of how nice they are when they ask me.

The only time I ask people to stop fishing in front of my property is if they hook my boat, which happens all the time, or if they throw cigarettes in the water, which happens all the time too!

That really fried my backside, because my kids swim in that water!

And yes, I am aware that I have no right to ask them to leave, but I can't just sit back and watch someone disrespect other people.

Jimmy

[Dispy]

More information:

http://www.plymouth.edu/center-for-the-environment/files/2011/03/H_Rowden_2011-Watershed-Conference-Public-Trust-in-NH.pdf

[Pail Rider]

I understand bud, but you would be surprised what I have seen.

Stupid people everywhere....getting harder and harder to avoid them.

[800stealth]

I think the size of your piece of land plays into this a lot. My plot is about 6 acres and I don't mind the neighborhood kids walking through my yard to get to the pond if they're respectful and ask, but my property is well posted against hunting... kids with fishing poles don't make me nervous but someone I don't know creeping around behind my house with a 30-06 scares the hell out of me lol.

[ice fisher]

It would seem that the real issue should be that people just don't respect other peoples property water front or acres of land another words if u have access you shouldn't take if for granted

[Dispy]

So getting back to your initial question.......let's review Riparian Rights and how they apply to lakes, ponds, rivers, and oceans. How do Riparian Rights protect land owners that own lakefront property? After becoming familiar with these "rights", more specifically how they apply to smaller lot sizes, high population densities on lakes/ponds ..We can see a direct answer to the question at hand.


As defined: Riparian Rights>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_water_rights

[nixstyx]

I don't think it should be different for accessing water, and from a legal perspective I don't think it is any different... it must be posted. This is a topic that's always interested me. First, because I have very -- how shall I put it -- liberal feelings about land use. My belief is that as long as you're following the law and aren't blatantly trespassing on clearly posted land, then there's no problem (and yes, I do own land and feel the same way about other people using my land).

I have, on occasion, cut between camps that were clearly not used in winter to gain ice access. My family owns a camp that we don't use during the winter and I wouldn't have a problem with someone doing the same -- as long as they respected the property and didn't leave a mess. Now, I probably would avoid it if it was a year round home that was occupied, just out of general courtesy and to avoid confrontation and further land restrictions.

If you're worried a landowner will be upset or will tell you to get lost, there are a couple strategies to gaining access that a lot of people forget about. First, all waterways are considered public right of ways. So, if there's a stream or brook flowing into the lake, that's a legal access point, even if it's on private property. I once saw a F&G officer stocking a brook that ran into someone's front yard where they had a dam... obviously the fish would just stack up there and nobody but this one guy could catch them, right? I raised the point, and the officer said, "Why don't you get a kayak and float down there?" Right into his front lawn? Yup! I didn't end up doing it, because it obviously would have led to a confrontation, but it's a good example and proof that the law backs up this approach.

The other strategy is to get a current tax map. Many towns have little-known public right of ways that extend to the water. I can think of a couple lakes like this, where the right of way looks like someone's front yard (and the landowner may not even know about it), but the right of way is there for a reason. These right of ways might also help you find access to a hunting location. There's a small parcel of town owned land in a nearby town that is surrounded by posted private land and I wanted to hunt it. Well, I pulled the tax map and found that there's an old town-owned right of way for a road that was never built to this piece of land. Legal and fair access... just be prepared to explain this to adjoining landowners and authorities.

[nixstyx]

So getting back to your initial question.......let's review Riparian Rights and how they apply to lakes, ponds, rivers, and oceans. How do Riparian Rights protect land owners that own lakefront property? After becoming familiar with these "rights", more specifically how they apply to smaller lot sizes, high population densities on lakes/ponds ..We can see a direct answer to the question at hand.


As defined: Riparian Rights>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_water_rights

Maybe I'm missing some other point you're trying to make here, but I'm not sure what riparian rights have to do with the original question of accessing water through private land? Riparian rights usually refer's to waterfront property owner's rights to use the water (for drinking, to build a dock, etc).

[fisherhawk55]

I think some people that own land or have water rights ect ,are very fearful of being sued because if someone gets hurt on your property being water front or land is a huge liability it takes trust to allow someone the right to hunt or fish on your land ect I have hunt able land that I don't post but have kick guys out because they shoot to close to my house with slug guns and I get blamed for it from neighbors that don't hunt you have to be careful these days scum bags come in many forms

[Dispy]

Maybe I'm missing some other point you're trying to make here, but I'm not sure what riparian rights have to do with the original question of accessing water through private land? Riparian rights usually refer's to waterfront property owner's rights to use the water (for drinking, to build a dock, etc).

Was waiting for someone to ask that....lol.....the information is in the link but I'll spell it out Riparian Right, Partition Unit and Common Land are all basic laws that America has adopted from various "homelands" in our pursuit of happiness. In other words, the laws- the foundation to which this country was built. To thoroughly understand the answer, one must understand the history of how trespassing laws originated, why they are such and how these three Rights apply...........feel free to research the other two Partition Unit and Common Land as I am not going to write a book on the subject.

"Riparian rights include such things as the right to access for swimming, boating and fishing; the right to wharf out to a point of navigability; the right to erect structures such as docks, piers, and boat lifts; the right to use the water for domestic purposes; the right to accretions caused by water level fluctuations; the right to exclusive use if the waterbody is non-navigable. Riparian rights also depend upon "reasonable use" as it relates to other riparian owners to ensure that the rights of one riparian owner are weighed fairly and equitably with the rights of adjacent riparian owners."

The formation of Lake Associations are based upon Common Land and Partition Units. In essence these all deal with land ownership

[Coffin Dodger]

I think most lakefront property's are like ours, very different than a vacant wood lot with many acres.

Jimmy, have a lot of respect for you and Stealth and the others that have posted here thus far.

BUT, with all due respect I'm going to agree to disagree on this point!
I owned a farm in southern NH with a pretty good sized woodlot and also field land.
So here's my perspective... Whether you have a 2 acre house lot, waterfront property, or a 200 acre vacant (or managed) woodlot, All three landowners are paying for their respective land and taxes. Why should the guys with the two smaller parcels have more exclusive privacy rights?
Regarding asking permission? If your land is not posted in NH the public has the right to hunt it. If you ask permission the landowner does appreciate it. The two smaller parcels should have no issues because you can't shoot within 300' or whatever of a residence.

I use to hear the same thing all the time... "we love hunting your property or riding 4 wheeler s on your property". None of these folks had asked permission. I didn't mind the hunters. I didn't care for the wheeler s cause they would tear up my woods roads. I always wondered what they would think if I drove a 4 wheeler through their back yard? Just because one owns a big piece of land doesn't mean it's not private property.
So, if you can walk on my property, why can't I walk on yours?     

[jimmyrig]

You make a valid point my friend, and have presented a good argument. As a due hard hunter, I do ask permission, and appreciate guys like yourself.

Jimmy

[FishSlayer20]

Never go somewhere without permission. I mean I ask months in advance look for anyway to help around d the property. Best thing is to build a repor with them. Also helps when I'm in my military uniform!

[800stealth]

Jimmy, have a lot of respect for you and Stealth and the others that have posted here thus far.

BUT, with all due respect I'm going to agree to disagree on this point!
I owned a farm in southern NH with a pretty good sized woodlot and also field land.
So here's my perspective... Whether you have a 2 acre house lot, waterfront property, or a 200 acre vacant (or managed) woodlot, All three landowners are paying for their respective land and taxes. Why should the guys with the two smaller parcels have more exclusive privacy rights?
Regarding asking permission? If your land is not posted in NH the public has the right to hunt it. If you ask permission the landowner does appreciate it. The two smaller parcels should have no issues because you can't shoot within 300' or whatever of a residence.

I use to hear the same thing all the time... "we love hunting your property or riding 4 wheeler s on your property". None of these folks had asked permission. I didn't mind the hunters. I didn't care for the wheeler s cause they would tear up my woods roads. I always wondered what they would think if I drove a 4 wheeler through their back yard? Just because one owns a big piece of land doesn't mean it's not private property.
So, if you can walk on my property, why can't I walk on yours?     

I agree with you, I guess my first post just wasn't worded well... I didn't mean that the size should change anything in a legal sense or that a bigger lot doesn't demand the same privacy... just that it may change personal preferences as to weather or not you would want someone hunting on it depending on how big it is. If I owned a few hundred acres I'd still post it... but it would be plenty big enough that I would feel comfortable letting people I knew and trusted hunt it. Just like I wouldn't ask to hunt your property unless you knew and trusted me.

[Coffin Dodger]

Jimmy and Stealth..
No problem guys  , just wanted to point out that all private land regardless of the size is owned by someone.
If everyone was as respectful as you two, there would be no problems.