This months Conservationist

[Zern]

Thought this maybe interesting to us all.

Ask the ECO
Q: I use a store-bought, pop-up style shanty for ice fishing rather than the traditional homemade style you normally see. Since I take it home with me after each outing, do I have to mark it with my name and address for it to be legal?

A: NYS Navigation Law states that "any person who places any structure upon the ice shall have placed thereon, with paint or in some other permanent manner, the owner's full name and address in letters at least three inches high in a contrasting color to the surrounding structure." When written, this law was really geared toward identifying shanties that are left out on the ice for days or weeks at a time. Pop-up style shanties are becoming more popular with ice fishermen and are rarely left out on the ice, so your question is a good one. However, since the definition of "structure" does apply to a pop-up shanty, you should mark your pop-up as indicated in the above law.

 This is in the current issue of the Conservationist.

 Not sure how I could comply on my clam hub. To put my full name and addy on the side of a cloth "structure" will take some doing not to mention some space.

 What do you all think?
Zern

http://www.dec.ny.gov/pubs/72041.html

[Superpole]

That contradicts everything I have heard.  Is a 7 gallon bucket a structure?  What about my carhartt coveralls?

[oletimer]

Don't think a judge would agree with that. So if I use my snow block maker and put up a wind wall it needs to be labeled? Plus if this were the case, what have ECO's been doing? I haven't heard of tickets issued because of no name in 3" letters on flip overs or hub styles. So I would say they have set a precedent that it is not needed. Only for those constructed on or left on the ice.
I would really hate to fish in the area that ECO covers... If he starts flooding the courts with those tickets he might get spoken to.
The only reason the law was written was to be able to find and charge those who leave a shanty on after the end date of 3/15.
Of course, if they thought they could get away with it, they might start ticketing..NY is broke you know.

[Ice Wine]

My Eskimo pop-up came with a tag that you can pin on there, kind of like what you put your fishing license in but bigger, for labeling with name and address. That said, I have never noticed anyone writing their name on their pop-upor using the tags.

[Huntyeraws]

The law when it was written applied to permanent shanties when the law was written so that they knew who to contact, charge or ticket if their shanty became a navagation hazard after March 15th.   The law is archaic and times have changed and portable, temoprary shanties are used everywhere.  These is analogous and no different than going to a state forest or WMA with a climbing tree stand for deer hunting, hunting for the day and then taking it down while permanant tree stands are forbiden.   With all of the pop-up and flip tops out there being used made by clam, eskimo, otter, frabill, shappell, etc.  and I have never heard anobody that has ever gotten ticketing for it?   I believe that the NYSCC should advise the NYSDEC and/or NYS legislature to ammend and/or clarify the law so that it only pertains to "permanent", long term shanty structures and exempt temporary flip top, pop-top, etc. type of shelters that are set up for just daily use. 

[flukeman]

It is just one of those laws on the books that technology has pasted by. There are a lot of laws on the books that have this happen to them. The ECO was just giving the party line answer as to not to be the creator of new policy in a public forum.

[Gamalot]

I have asked both ECOs and FRs this exact question numerous times and every one answered it the same way. "If you leave your shelter unattended on the ice then it must be labeled".

There is a fishing contest here on White Lake on the 20th (King of the Ice) and there will be at least 200 shanties, tents, blinds and makeshift shelters with none of them marked. There will also be Law Enforcement from every PD and agency you can think of and they could close the NY State Deficit if they start issuing tickets for this.

I think someone should remove the inflation tube from that ECO's rear before he starts a riot on the ice. Based on his assessment, if you tilt your sled to form a wind break it becomes a shanty and needs your info clearly marked on it. What a crock!

[Mentiply]

According to Wikipedia this is the definition of a structure:

Built structure

A structure usually refers to any large, man-made object permanently fixed to Earth's surface or in its orbit, as a result of construction. These are divided into buildings and nonbuilding structures, and make up the infrastructure of a human society. There are also animal-built structures, such as anthills and beaver dams.

Structures built by humans are broadly divided into categories because of their varying design approaches and standards:

[Ranger_bound]

Its up to the ECO's discretion...it's similar to not getting pulled over doing 57mph in a 55mph speed zone it's the police officers discretion.

[FROZENGOOSE]

I wont do it new york knows enough of what i do, to many bull crap laws.

[Gamalot]

Its up to the ECO's discretion...it's similar to not getting pulled over doing 57mph in a 55mph speed zone it's the police officers discretion.

I was a LEO in a different department and it is exactly that kind of "Discretionary BS" that gets us all a bad name!

Sportsman are not Harvard Lawyers and the laws need to be written in plain English so they are not open to interpretation out in the field by some pumped up gladiator fresh from the academy.

How hard would it be to add "This includes portable tents, blinds, shelters and pop up shanties" on the end of the actual printed rule in our booklets?

I suppose if my coat has a hood I better get it labeled as well since it is a shelter.

[Somers]

I must be missing something here...Isn't this an issue that can be solved for many in about 2 minutes employing the use of a nice fat Sharpie marker?

Not understanding the resistance to such a simple fix. 

However, since the definition of "structure" does apply to a pop-up shanty, you should mark your pop-up as indicated in the above law.

Pretty simply stated "by law" if you ask me.  The ECO is merely quoting the "law" regardless of fishermens' opinions.

I agree there's a lot of BS laws on the books, but guess I'd just pick my battles more carefully.  Why have it be an issue if you come across a by the book type looking to wrote a summons?  I'm sure everyone opposing this makes sure their tip ups are all marked w/ name and address, no?

Just throwing it out there...carry on.

[Gamalot]

Here is all that is written on the subject of Shanties in the rules.

"Ice shanties

Ice shanties must be marked on the outside with the owner=s name and address in letters at least 3 inches high. Shanties must be removed from all waters by March 15 to prevent them from falling through the ice in spring and becoming navigational hazards.

This law has been on the books for many years and long before the advent of portable sled type pop ups were ever even thought of.

The purpose of this rule was to make identification of Shanties possible if they were left on the ice past the March 15th date.

This rule never took in to account the portable shelters we are using today and has not been updated to reflect the changes in our equipment.

I know I am beating a dead horse with some of you guys but there are many who take a tent out on the ice and use it as a shelter or what we tend to call a portable shanty.

It is a play on words!

When does a tent become a Shanty? When does a sled become a Shanty? When does a blue tarp set up as a wind block become a shanty? How about piling snow to form a wind block and throwing your sled over it, when does this become a shanty?

I don't have any problems following the written rules but just because manufacturers and fisherman decide to call portable shelters "Shanties" does not give license to the DEC to classify any and every structure we drag on to the ice as such.

Shanties are very popular in certain northern reaches of this country and as such should be identified and marked according to the rules.

I don't own a Shanty!

I do have a Fish Trap Guide and it says so right on it. Until the DEC decides to update the rules and list portable shelters, Traps, tents, blinds, sleds and blue tarps as Shanties then they can kiss my American rear! I don't leave it on the ice. I am always there when it is there and I will not use a sharpie and mark up my Trap just so they can play with words. I might want to sell it some day and the new owner might not like my name and address being on it.

[icedpapermouth]

i hate to say it but when it all boils down to it is the state, or ECO, can decide they need to boost the fundraising and start slapping all of us with a nice little fine. and  it  isn't really that hard to make a velcro banner on there with the info, or something you can remove if you wanted to sell it... pretty soon we won't be allowed to fart without paying some sort of fee. grin and bare it because i doubt there is much we as sportsman can do to change little BS laws like this. thank you for posting, the last thing i need, or any of us, is to get slapped with a fine i truly thought i was exempt from.

[Zern]

This an interesting convo,

 I was on Conesus Lake last weekend and there must have been well over 100 folks out there. If the ECO had writen me up for this, I would follow him and demand he write up everyone. (lets be fair) I would like to see how the judge reacts to 50 or so people walking into his court room all to plead innocent to the same charge.

 As far as putting something on my hub, my full name and address, as writen on my sportsman license, contains 74 letters and numbers. It would be easier on me to pay the fine.

 I have sent a copy of this to my state reps. (no replies) It's about all we can do.

[joefish]

  I Think you should stop witching about this subject, The next thing you know they will want to charge you for a license for your popup.

[bcons]

From my experience when  ECO's are checking everyone, or most people they wait in the parking lot.  Open water they wait at the launch.  When you see them or other LEO's out and about they're looking for one thing.  That guy everyone can hear from 200 yards away cussing & yelling "throw me a F^%$ng beer"  Don't be that guy, & they leave you alone.  At any given time there's one of those who draw attention to themselves somewhere around, if not a sled or wheeler doing something to get noticed.   The less reason you give em, the less likely you are to even have them approach you.

[Gamalot]

Letters that are 3 inches high are about 2 inches wide. I will need a surface that is 32 inches wide and 15 inches tall to attach my name and address in accordance with this rule.

If I get the answer from the DEC that this is the enforceable law then my option will be to stencil my info on the front, back and side of the sled sides and then pack snow against them when I get on the ice. All the rule says is 3 inch high letters on the outside of the shanty, here is my scooper if you want to check them!

[flukeman]

You guys crack me up! It must be extremely tough getting out on the ice after this last storm   

[FROZENGOOSE]

No matter what you do if they want to pop you they will.  Depends on the officer i dont like cops but some are nice people and i respect that but some others are just @#$@@##@$$@@#

[grumpyoldude]

OK: Enough already, stop reading the Conservationist! It was just a filler article to get your panties in a bunch.  

[Oldtimer]

How about a thief, riding by your shelter on a snowmobile, checking the address on your shelter, calling a friend to give him a place where someone may not be at home...   These type people chec the funeral notices and rob the homes when the mourners are at the cemetary.  so this is not far fetched

[Drewski121]

I don't think there is a DeCon Officer that would ticket something like this because of common sense,If anything they would probably give a warning.
I personally have never heard of anyone getting ticketed for this ....DD...

[jascpa099]

It's too bad that little bit has overshadowed the nice article about the man taking his wife icefishing. 

[slekeith]

 Are they or are they not all portable just because you leave yours out over night dosen't mean it's not portable. How did it get there in the first place. It's alot easyer to label it and not miss a day of fishing to go to court.

[jiggin jeff]

Are they or are they not all portable just because you leave yours out over night dosen't mean it's not portable. How did it get there in the first place. It's alot easyer to label it and not miss a day of fishing to go to court.

Your right its not to hard to label it but if your hub style or sled pull over doesnt have a area for this you must write on it with a marker or something perment if you like alot of others you my want to sell yours every couple of years to upgrade nobody will want it with your name and address all over it just my $.02

[Gamalot]

Your right its not to hard to label it but if your hub style or sled pull over doesnt have a area for this you must write on it with a marker or something perment if you like alot of others you my want to sell yours every couple of years to upgrade nobody will want it with your name and address all over it just my $.02

I fully agree with you Jeff. If they don't change this back to what it used to be (Permanent Shanties) then we will have to come up with some type of Flag with our info on it that can be put up and removed. I think it is a ridiculous rule and that the ECO here has over interpreted it. Also agree that few ECOs will even bother with enforcing it but that could leave you swinging from a weak vine.

I still think we should all be complaining and hounding the DEC to make this clear and dump this dopey rule unless you park your portable unattended on the ice. Who in their right mind would do that?

[slekeith]

Your right its not to hard to label it but if your hub style or sled pull over doesnt have a area for this you must write on it with a marker or something perment if you like alot of others you my want to sell yours every couple of years to upgrade nobody will want it with your name and address all over it just my $.02

You could use a peace of cloth and a few stitches.
Everyone should read they drove through my shanty on the general chit chat site. that guy left a hub style set up for over three weeks. Permanent or portable?

[jiggin jeff]

You could use a peace of cloth and a few stitches.
Everyone should read they drove through my shanty on the general chit chat site. that guy left a hub style set up for over three weeks. Permanent or portable?

  Thats not a bad idea slekeith I guess it dosen't matter to me as long as it dont effect the resale of the portable thanks

[ship of fools]

Why even worry about it until someone gets written up?