Author Topic: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide  (Read 2936 times)

Offline slipperybob

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Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« on: Jul 31, 2018, 11:53 AM »
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Line Angle Deflection to first line guide.

Why we feel the pulsating effect with ice fishing rods is due to the line angle deflection from the spinning reel line roller to the first line guide.  Everything from the size of the first line guide to the placement distance of it from the reel and the circumference of the actual rotor of the spinning reel.  My spinning reels are Shimano Stradic 1000 size spools and body.  Of course inconsistencies from manufacturing will vary on the same model rod, as well as actual reels used will yield some differences from each manufacture as well as actual radial circumference of reel line roller positioning on the reel rotor.  To simplify if you compare two rods of same make and model, you will notice that the line guides placements will vary usually about up to one inch.  Whereas for reels, some manufactures will make an ultralight spool and reel body, but that reel shares the same rotor from the next size up reel.  Was it really and ultralight reel or just simply a smaller spool on the reel?

The following data consist of distance from median of reel stem to the foot of the first line guide, (to tip guide comparison of actual blank length), top line angle deflection, and bottom line angle deflection.

St Croix Mojo 28" UL: distance to first guide foot 10" (23" to tip), top 0 degree, bottom 15 degree
St Croix Mojo 28" ML: distance to first guide foot 10" (23" to tip), top 0 degree, bottom 15 degree

13 Wicked 27" UL: distance to first guide foot 10 1/2" (24 3/8" to tip), top 4 degree, bottom 19 degree
13 WhiteOut 27.5" ML: distance to first guide foot 8 3/4" (24 1/2" to tip), top 9 degree, bottom 26 degree

Clam Carbon Ice 28" L: distance to first guide foot 9 7/8" (24" to tip), top 5 degree, bottom 24 degree
Clam Carbon Ice 26" UL: distance to first guide foot 10 3/8" (22" to tip), top 4 degree, bottom 23 degree

Fenwick Aetos 28" ML: distance to first guide foot 10" (23" to tip), top 0 degree, bottom 15 degree

Thorne Bros Deadstick 32" custom: distance to first guide foot 9 1/2" (25" to tip), top 5 degree, bottom 20 degree


Most notable are the St. Croix Mojo rods and Fenwick Aetos rod showing a 0 degree line angle deflection with the reel line roller at the top position.  Basically the line stayed straight through the first line guide and is not touching the ring insert, until it moves toward the lower rotor position obtaining the maximum angle of deflection at 15 degrees.
That is in part due to a larger line guide.  It all just happens that their line guide placement as well as the reel seat placement just happen to match up.  These are the rods that when you hook up with a fish, you're gonna feel what the fish is doing and will have better reception in fish fighting while winching them in. 
The 13 Whiteout has the smallest of the line guides of all these rods.  There is a steep angle of line contact with the first line guide at 9 degrees for the top angle and 26 degrees angle for the bottom.  The difference yields a 17 degree cone displacement.  Expect to feel a good pulsating effect while winching your reel.  The 13 Wicked rod here yields a 15 degree cone displacement.  In effect will have about the same pulsating effect with the St. Croix Mojo and Fenwick Aetos rods.  Only that the line have full contact all the time with the first line guide will produce a more pronounce pulsating effect than those rods, but still less than the Whiteout rod.
Now comparing the two Clam Ice Team Carbon Ice rods.  While both rods share the exact same reel seat position and line guide size, just the slight variation from the manufacture of position of that first line guide is enough to vary by a full degree at both ends.  While the difference of both yields the same 19 degree cone displacement, meaning both rods will in effect displace the same pulsating effect if the same winching speed is employ.  Due to the widest cone displacement, these rods will be most prone to produce the pulsating effect.

In comparison to a full sized rod where one will not or barely feel the pulsating effect of the rod from cranking the reel.

Shimano Zodias 7' ML: distance to first guide foot 19 1/2" (n/a" to tip), top 0 degree, bottom 5 degree

Closing note, as much as we like the ease of use of spinning reel set up, the pulsating effect of winching the spinning reel interferes with the playing of a hooked fish at times.  The pulsating effect plays out like the fish is fighting hard or shaking their head whiles it's all false interpretation.  All of that is just from the variation of the line retrieval rate from the high and low angles from the reel rotor in motion to that first line guide.  In effect, if the first line guide is placed further away, the cone angle displacement will be smaller and the pulsating effect will dissipate.  Ice rods are short, but line guide selection especially that first line guide is the biggest contributor.

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All this while waiting for ice... ;D
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Offline matzilla

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #1 on: Jul 31, 2018, 03:58 PM »
another plus of custom rods...you can nealry eliminate the pulsation

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Offline perchnut

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #2 on: Jul 31, 2018, 04:22 PM »
I build my own rods as well....I'll have to re read this a couple times, then measure some of mine....so I guess what you are saying is the flatter the line to that first guide, the less pulsating, the better........makes sense......boy, we need ice......  and thanks for providing those measurements.....

Offline slipperybob

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #3 on: Jul 31, 2018, 05:38 PM »
Yeap, when I see all those expensive retail rods and see that tiny first line guide, I fret how the pulsating effect goes.  I see all the sales rage, but I am not buying.

As much as I like how my Thorne Bros dead stick functions for catching fish, I dislike it equally when I'm trying to winch in the fish and my rod is just pulsating and sending vibrations to the rod tip.  If only I knew then what I know now, I would've requested that first line guide to be moved up another 3 inches.  If I plan to request any custom rod made in future for spinning reel set up, I definite would make that request.

In addition when I see a long stem spinning reel being sold for ice fishing purpose, I cringe at the actual results.

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Offline HWeber

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #4 on: Jul 31, 2018, 09:28 PM »
Most long stems seem to be angled more toward the guide possibly eliminating any issue caused by the longer stem

Offline slipperybob

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #5 on: Aug 01, 2018, 01:58 AM »
Most long stems seem to be angled more toward the guide possibly eliminating any issue caused by the longer stem

True to that.  The angle that the reel rotor (for my Shimano Stradics 1000) must create to eliminate the offset of line difference is (eyeballed) roughly about varying between 15 to 30 degrees, given among the ice rods I have.  Way too much variation for me to even begin to collect guestimated data.  ;D  If my memory serves me, I believe I've only seen one HT long stem reel that was actually angled somewhat.

From the measurements of two near identical rod set ups (Clam Ice Team Carbon Ice rods) that varies with only the first line guide being 1/2 inch different already yields a 1 degree difference.  The variation is from the size of the ring of the first line guide as well as the placement of it and even the length of the line guide stem.  Again it's not so much the reel, although it does have a direct contribution to the pulsating effect by design.  It's not direction of the topic I'm pursuing because of different manufacture reel designs.  It's really the positioning of first line guide or the selection of line guide set, IMO that manufactures should put some R&D into.

The pulsating effect is like a dynamic relationship.  If you winch slow, you won't feel it.  Obviously the faster you winch your reel and the speed of the line retrieved, the pulsating effect is more pronounced due to the difference in line retrieval speed.  If no line is being retrieved and the drag just clicks away at a constant speed as one cranks the reel handle, there is no pulsating effect.  (Of course that's a recipe for line twist.)  So that angled reel, unless it is very close to perfect matched to the rod to create the symmetrical cone, it will be of no effect.

Now that reminds me that I should just measure the actual line distance at comparison of the short vs long sides difference.

I got a little curious and decided to check a few reels.  Turns out all of them are slightly angled.  Pfleuger President spinning reels were angled.  Shimano Stradics spinning reels were angled, even the 20 year old reel was angled.  Most of them were about 2-3 degrees angled only.  I was checking them by either the base or flat top part of the spools against the rod blank.
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Offline slipperybob

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #6 on: Oct 23, 2018, 05:45 PM »
So after all the downtime and too much thinking... I have decided that I will fish my 13 Whiteout rod skipping the first line guide to allow a more straight line and more uniformed cone angle.  Waiting for ice and some real field test...
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Offline HWeber

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #7 on: Oct 23, 2018, 06:36 PM »
Do you build rods at all?  Could really open up your experimenting. You could also fix rods with uneven cones

Offline perchnut

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #8 on: Oct 24, 2018, 08:30 AM »
or maybe we just play the fish a little slower and not 'winch' the fish in like its our last meal coming up from the depths...... ;D. Im getting ready to build a few rods, so Ill be paying attention to guide placement, but too, im not going to move all my guides toward the end of my rod.....I use all rods that Ive built and Ive not noticed any pulsating effects when bringing in fish....but I also use very light line, so I dont horse the fish in.....Again, good post Slippery.

Offline slipperybob

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #9 on: Nov 21, 2018, 08:05 PM »
or maybe we just play the fish a little slower and not 'winch' the fish in like its our last meal coming up from the depths...... ;D. Im getting ready to build a few rods, so Ill be paying attention to guide placement, but too, im not going to move all my guides toward the end of my rod.....I use all rods that Ive built and Ive not noticed any pulsating effects when bringing in fish....but I also use very light line, so I dont horse the fish in.....Again, good post Slippery.

Thanks, LOL yeah, I don't like my fish spitting their guts out.  I take my time with them and often times it's easier to return them back with lots of life.  However for some fish like smelt and other trout species...I'm gonna need to reel as fast as I can at times.  At least I feel like I was winching like no tomorrow at times.  To include also fishing much deeper depths of like 50 feet to 100 feet or more at times.  It's not always that I'm feeling the rod tip bouncing and vibrating.  Glass blank rods will absorb those vibration.  What I see is the line vibrating and the water rippling on the surface in the ice hole.  When I use my baitcasting set up, all of that disappears virtually and I have better feel with line connection to fish.  At times I feel my line rubbing against ice hole the moment the fish turns in different direction.  With my spinning set up, most times when I realize that has happened, it had happened a while already.

Do you build rods at all?  Could really open up your experimenting. You could also fix rods with uneven cones
I don't build rods.  Maybe in the future it's something I would like to do.  As well as fly tying too.  This was just something that has always felt off to me with short ice fishing rods.  It's something that is also on full sized fishing rods.  The difference one can feel from different rods and everything down to the different line type or diameter of line to different reel size and actual reel components used.  However that's going tangent off of line guide placements on ice rods.

For such short ice rods, it seems the biggest threshold is around 10-12 inches away from the reel stem.  If I were a rod builder, it's not just the finished rod length that I would concern myself with.  I would concern myself with those spacing of the line guides that often is place in a small distance of around only 12 inches or so to the rod tip.  If we look at the linear physics of just angles, less angle is smoother transition.  However there's no way we will want just that, because the rod bend with a load, drastically changes the dynamics of simple linear physics.

Now this get's into the spinning reel by design.  It's not always the smallest spool on the smallest spinning reel.  That rotor with the bail and everything is what is determining the line angle or rather the conical threshold of the line funnel.  It goes to what's the point of having a smaller spool when the rotor and bail is the same one from a larger reel.  It will feel like a larger reel still while turning the handle in operation.  I won't name the actual reels, because one of my favorite was built like this.
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Offline slipperybob

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #10 on: Jan 09, 2021, 03:23 AM »
So after all the downtime and too much thinking... I have decided that I will fish my 13 Whiteout rod skipping the first line guide to allow a more straight line and more uniformed cone angle.  Waiting for ice and some real field test...

Coming back to this to give an update.  I will say that skipping the first line guide on the 13 Whiteout rod fishes just fine.  In fact it actually fishes better.  So how many other types of ice rod would probably benefit from this?  Very unexpected, results and probably will vary from actual rods.
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Offline TickleStick

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #11 on: Jan 16, 2021, 02:26 AM »
I hate to bump such a old thread up but have noticed this myself, especially on St-Croix Custom Ice rods, I actually just sold
one of them due to this, it wasn't so much the pulsating but when I had a fish on I could feel the rough angle while reeling through the first guide, each time the line
would come in contact with the first guide it would cause a lot of pressure on the rotor with each rotation, felt almost like my reel was skipping.

The last time I used it I ended up bypassing the first guide which made a huge improvement.

How these pro's use these St-Croix CCI rods without having them changed confuses me....

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Offline HWeber

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #12 on: Jan 16, 2021, 07:49 AM »
I hate to bump such a old thread up but have noticed this myself, especially on St-Croix Custom Ice rods, I actually just sold
one of them due to this, it wasn't so much the pulsating but when I had a fish on I could feel the rough angle while reeling through the first guide, each time the line
would come in contact with the first guide it would cause a lot of pressure on the rotor with each rotation, felt almost like my reel was skipping.

The last time I used it I ended up bypassing the first guide which made a huge improvement.

How these pro's use these St-Croix CCI rods without having them changed confuses me....

Ht accucast reels use a angled reel stem.  Might solve your issue if you like the rod otherwise. "Pros" seem to promote whoever pays them regardless of quality

Offline slipperybob

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #13 on: Jan 17, 2021, 03:34 AM »
I hate to bump such a old thread up but have noticed this myself, especially on St-Croix Custom Ice rods, I actually just sold
one of them due to this, it wasn't so much the pulsating but when I had a fish on I could feel the rough angle while reeling through the first guide, each time the line
would come in contact with the first guide it would cause a lot of pressure on the rotor with each rotation, felt almost like my reel was skipping.

The last time I used it I ended up bypassing the first guide which made a huge improvement.

How these pro's use these St-Croix CCI rods without having them changed confuses me....

Ht accucast reels use a angled reel stem.  Might solve your issue if you like the rod otherwise. "Pros" seem to promote whoever pays them regardless of quality

Exactly why I don't buy into the hype.  Especially seeing a rod with a high price tag and whooopsss....they didn't even get the line guide sizing and spacing right. 

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Offline slipperybob

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Re: Line Angle Deflection to first line guide
« Reply #14 on: Feb 03, 2021, 11:53 AM »
So I measured the last two rods I got made by Thorne Bros. last year as custom requested on a Panfish and Perch Sweetheart blanks into 32" length.  I measured from reel stem of the Stradic 1000 Ci4+ to the foot of the first line guide and both were 11". 

The angle deflection was 4 degree top and 18 degree bottom on the Panfish Sweetheart.
The angle deflection was 1 degree top and 16 degree bottom on the Perch Sweetheart.

The Perch Sweetheart has a bigger stripper guide and therefore also has a slightly longer stem.  Visual aesthetic appeal the Panfish looks better with the guide sizes and spacing.  The Perch looks off que.  Functionally the Perch fishes better with the bigger line guide as well as in part also being a little bit stronger in power.  Originally these were meant to have been built for the bait casting reel, but the builder shorted one line guide as originally requested.
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