Kicked off the ice

[bassin212]

Ya, I was definitely a little disappointed when he said. Kinda makes me think it's just a way to keep both Law Enforcement Agencies Civil and having each others backs instead of fully supporting their angles and letting them know their rights. Kind of like, if you don't push back and prove you know the law they'll just convince you otherwise.

That being said, pretty much all my experience with CO's have been positive.

[800stealth]

Not bad for a 3am email.  Couldn't sleep and I hate these situations.  Those rent a cops should be deported...

No, not bad at all man... I've followed you on this forum long enough to know your a true sportsman looking out for everyone, going to bat for any one of us that needs a hand in these situations. It's certainly appreciated.

[lowaccord66]

My advice for dealing with this type of situation and the police is document everything and comply with their orders.  Most states have statutes that the police can get you with for disobeying their orders even if their orders are incorrect.  The amount of effort required to set things straight varies by the situation.  I've been "arrested" a few times learning the ropes of how to deal with these things.  Keep in mind law enforcement does just that...enforces law.  They are give leeway to interpret and apply the law as needed.  It's not always done right and that's fine because it's easy to help them "be better" in regards to our legal pursuit of the outdoors. 

Stealth I appreciate the kind words.  My old man is a man of principles.  He nailed them into my head to a point where I cant ignore this stuff...I've also been fishing for long enough in many places to see how bad the situation is getting...its not getting better.  If I could make a living fighting these types of fights I'd quit my job and do it all the time.

[PoolGuy]

Not bad for a 3am email.  Couldn't sleep and I hate these situations.  Those rent a cops should be deported...

Very well written email.  Curious to see and know if they’ll ever respond back too you.

[jethro]

Freakin' rent-a-cop. Probably never enjoyed a day of his life outdoors fishing or anything else for that matter.

Can't wait to see what the response to your letter is Jon!

[Jkoht]

Unfortunately it seems in my experience that most enforcement officials, whether police or dnr, have the mentality of, "you might beat me in the long haul, but you're not going to beat the ride in." Meanimg that if you have the time, patience, and money to fight the court battle you might come out on top, but you're not going to win the initial point of conflict. Where are we as law abiding citizens supposed to draw the line between standing up for our rights, and bowing to their will? I fought a charge of discharge of a firearm near an occupied dwelling when I shot a grouse on state land across the road and in the woods from a cabin. I had stopped my truck and chased it into the woods. I was well away from this cabin and legally engaged in a hunt. The owners of the cabin sent my plate number to the dnr. It took two weeks before I was even notified that I was being charged. Our legal system us so jacked up that if you choose to fight the wrap your first court appearance is only to say guilty or not guilty, and then another hearing gets set for another month out. I went three times before I negotiated it down with the prosecutor to a lesser fine and misdemeanor. I could've kept fighting to prove I was totally right, but I didn't have the time to keep taking off from work to travel to a northern county court to fight. I guess I'm trying to say that there are times when you should fight, and other times when you have to acknowledge that the system is systemically set up against you and your odds of winning.

[lowaccord66]

Freakin' rent-a-cop. Probably never enjoyed a day of his life outdoors fishing or anything else for that matter.

Can't wait to see what the response to your letter is Jon!

Hard to show your worth as a security guard if you aren't securing things.  I havent had a chance to ping district 5 yet...busy day in the office!

Jkoht you make a point...a valid one.  I hate to admit this but that is my experience as well.  The second you lay down though...the system owns you.

[bikrsrule]

I dont know if it means anything but I was working today, I drive a truck and I went by eddy rd pond and as I was getting on rt 393 I looked over to where we usually park to fish and there were 2 fire engines. I had been by the pond several times today and nobody was fishing. Maybe they (fire dept) was checking ice for safety?

[whitewing]

You live in Concord - pay taxes there. Call Fire H/Q and ask what training was going on at Ft. Eddy today.

[lowaccord66]

Sadly, they have not responded to my email.  However I know some members have taken what I wrote, modified it a bit and sen t it to the college directly.  If anyone else wants to do the same please by all means.  I did notice the Fish and Game doesn't list emails of the officers publically but...I have their emails, just have not poked that bee hive...yet.

[Ramp 23]

Similar situation happened to me a few years ago. I was fishing on a lake I grew up on , I still live on that lake, 57 years. A security person pulled up & yelled to me to get off the ice , it's not safe. I was at the bottom of a rocky cliff so the vehicle was close , but very high above me. I responded well , "how thick is the ice "? No answer , we went back & forth but I never moved , nor will I ever , & they drove off. Never give up your rights

[jethro]

[800stealth]

Sadly, they have not responded to my email.  However I know some members have taken what I wrote, modified it a bit and sen t it to the college directly.  If anyone else wants to do the same please by all means.  I did notice the Fish and Game doesn't list emails of the officers publically but...I have their emails, just have not poked that bee hive...yet.

I just got a canned reply from the "help desk" that my concerns would be forwarded to the appropriate offices... So basically no reply...

[Dickbakers]

   Sad that this sort of problem pops up at the beginning of each season!
       I think that the fellows did the best thing by leaving when asked.  I agree with 
       Jon that they should have contacted someone at NHTI and asked about  use of
       its access to ice fish the water.  Remember that NHF&G is always
       asking that we get permission from landowners before crossing private
       property. 
       I've testified , in court, concerning public rights and trespass laws!!
       In this instance I'm afraid the all involved were wrong.  The security officer
       should have been brave and walked out to check the ice and talk to the                         
       fishing.  As far as trespass there was none until the officer asked you to
       leave.  Any  access after that point is considered trespass.  Since the school
       controls all the land surrounding the water you must cross their land to get
       onto what is considered "public water".   No need of no trespassing signs
       if a representative of the owner wished to ask you to leave.  Hope that the
       officers boss will give permission for future access.   Push the issue too far
       and they can easily and legally  POST the entire roadway .   
       I wish F&G would be more proactive with such access problems.
       BUT!  Living in the north country with few access problems I have to offer
       that If you wish to live in the city you have to learn to live by city laws.
       Bikrsrule?   I hope you checked the ice as you walked out to the fisherman?
       Dick
 

[ScotNH]

NHTI is a state institution. It is public land owned by the State of New Hampshire. Permission to use the property in a reasonable way is implicit. If they had been parked in that same spot having a picnic by the pond, they wouldn’t have been asked to leave. It is unacceptable for them to be targeted for their particular use of this public land and public waters, particularly when a specific law exists to protect sportsman. I believe the security team at NHTI greatly overstepped their authority.

In my opinion, the best way to correct this issue would be sending a letter to the NHTI administration and security, copied to the governors office, protesting the unreasonable restriction the NHTI security team has placed on lawful outdoor activities on waters held in trust by the state for public use. I do intend to send a letter.

[SALMONEMIA]

Nice job on that email. I feel the same way and living nearby it also having fish that pond and several others nearby I'll be watching this closely curious to hear what happens

[lowaccord66]

Hey Dick...I think you missed some key points to the story!  No response yet from the school, they don't want to admit they broke the law.  Also the school DOES NOT own any of the property where the road is and the tax map shows that.

[SALMONEMIA]

Hey Dick...I think you missed some key points to the story!  No response yet from the school, they don't want to admit they broke the law.  Also the school DOES NOT own any of the property where the road is and the tax map shows that.

Im on your side here and feel just as strongly about this. I know that pond and have fished it before. Just tryin to understand the map and what your saying about access. The only part on the map by the road you speak of is 393. You cant really park there. Not being just confrontational just womdering what area your speaking of. I do know that there is a tunnel you can walk under 393 and get direct to the pond that way. Its off ft eddy rd.

[zwiggles]

Im on your side here and feel just as strongly about this. I know that pond and have fished it before. Just tryin to understand the map and what your saying about access. The only part on the map by the road you speak of is 393. You cant really park there. Not being just confrontational just womdering what area your speaking of. I do know that there is a tunnel you can walk under 393 and get direct to the pond that way. Its off ft eddy rd.

I believe lowaccords comment was in response to dickbakers comment a few before yours. Dick seemed to miss the part of the thread about the tax map.

[zwiggles]

I have to admit that this thread is pretty neat. It’s good to see a bunch of “strangers” on an Internet forum sticking up for one another like this.

I know I now feel better informed of my rights as an angler from reading it.

[Dickbakers]

Hey Dick...I think you missed some key points to the story!  No response yet from the school, they don't want to admit they broke the law.  Also the school DOES NOT own any of the property where the road is and the tax map shows that.

Jon, you have been involved in many of these water access problems,but I Wii stay with my opinion.
The school may not control the access road (College Drive)
But the tax map indicates that they own the land between the
road and the water.   I don't know whether the officer broke any laws.  If his supervisor wants to ignore an email it's choice, although a sad one.  It would be better to visit NHF+G and ask if they might query the school to ask about ice fishing access.
Ownership by the State of NH  doesn't make open to all public uses.  If that were you might feel free to picnic on I93? 
Try to park roadside at UNH Durham for a picnic?
The security officer was feeling potent but I don't think he did anything illegal. 
If it's a good place for early ice fishing it would seem worth the
effort to get F+G  public relations to provide for parking  and
public access. 
Dick

[ScotNH]

That isn’t a very good comparison, Dick. The interstate system is controlled by its own specific laws. There are also signs stating that pedestrians are not allowed on the interstate.

Would you expect a parent to request permission to bring their child to kick a soccer ball around in the empty athletic fields at NHTI? I’d be shocked if NHTI security would ask them to leave.

Unless the state has a compelling reason to not allow us to use OUR public land to access OUR public waters, they should not be restricting our access.

The security staff at NHTI are not the ultimate authority on how that land can or cannot be used. They likely erred in the judgement call they made. I believe it is likely that the security guards overstepped their bounds, and their decision is a misrepresentation of the institution that they work for. I don’t believe the college administration, or their boss, the governor, would support that decision.

[Dickbakers]

Scot   Our governor already denied fish and game access to Lake Sunapee
Dick

[800stealth]

My biggest issue is the way it was handled, NHTI can ask them to move their trucks off their property, they can ask them to not cross NHTI property to access the lake... but unless I misread something that's not what happened. Fishermen were told NHTI owns the lake, get off now. As Salmonemia mentioned, this pond can be accessed from Fort Eddy rd. via the tunnel. Lying to a fisherman to scare them from fishing a body of water that has public access is absolutely harassing a sportsman.

[lowaccord66]

I believe lowaccords comment was in response to dickbakers comment a few before yours. Dick seemed to miss the part of the thread about the tax map.

Yup this.

I can appreciate your perspective dick although if I agreed with it I probably would not have tried to help. 

[Frozenut]

The only way to access fort eddy pond is by crossing nhti property. The lower section of the map is highway 393. You cannot legally park or access to pond via 393. According to the tax map the state of NH owns the land that nhti is on. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if its state land then it's not trespassing?

[fishermantim]

Sounds like another example of people in jobs with minimal, menial power looking to exert themselves beyond their range and ability.

I've been fortunate enough to not have encountered someone asking me to leave because they "perceived" the ice to be unsafe.
The only time I was "approached" by the town police was when they drove up, called me over to the shore and mentioned they had gotten calls regarding homeowner's questions about ice safety. I showed the officer, by jumping up and down, that the 6-8' of ice were safe enough. I guess he ice fished as well as he wished me good luck and drove away.

Sometimes the uninformed, with the best of intentions in mind, don't realize that we anglers just might have more knowledge and a better understanding of the scientific dynamics of pond ice?

[ScotNH]

I had a long conversation with Jason Bishop, the Director of Security at NHTI earlier today. It was my feeling that he takes pride in his work, and he genuinely wanted to address my concerns. I appreciate the time that he took to speak to me.

The primary concern that was addressed was the public nature of the pond. He acknowledged that he had read RSA 271:20 and my impression was that he accepted that the pond itself is public property and their authority does not extend to the pond. He indicated to me that 90% of the time they have ever asked someone to vacate the pond, it was at the request of either the State Police or the Concord Fire Department. Apparently it is not uncommon for passing motorists to decide the ice is at safe and call to report people on the ice. It was my feeling that in the future they would not attempt to remove people from the pond, possibly even if requested to do so, as they do not have that authority.

The secondary concern that was addressed was that of access via NHTI property.

One important point that he made was that NHTI is no longer a part of the State. It recently split from the State, and some sort of deal was made which transferred ownership of that land from the State to NHTI. He indicated that the tax maps had not yet been properly updated to reflect that. He also said that there is currently some confusion as to a nearby boat launch and how the deal with the state applies to it. I didn’t dive into that issue.

We both acknowledged that it is within their authority to control access via their property. But, he also acknowledged that it is not the policy of NHTI to disallow access to the pond for fishing, and that people have been allowed to fish there for many years. He also agreed with me that it was not his security groups place to make those policies, and that it was their job to enforce the policies set forth by the administration.

I was assured that they were not targeting fishing specifically.

I was happy with how the conversation went, and I believe my concerns were heard and understood.

[800stealth]

Good stuff Scott, glad to hear it went in a positive direction. Thanks for the update.

[SALMONEMIA]

Yeah dude good work on your part. Thats good to hear. Thanks for your efforts.  See you Sunday.