Kicked off the ice

[bikrsrule]

I was driving down 393 in Concord this afternoon and noticed a couple guys fishing horseshoe pond on the nhti campus, went over for a chat, was probably 4" of very solid white ice as we were talking and he was fishing ( I was there for over an hour) this young guy with a badge calls over from shore that he is not comfortable with us being out there fishing on thin ice and we have to leave..NOW..We asked what authority he had since we didnt think he owned the ice but he said it was on nhti property and if we didnt leave he would call the concord pd. Well, we picked up and left, he met us at our trucks and said it wasnt his call but his supervisor told him to tell us to leave, then he asked for our names..We said well, you already have our plate numbers and he said yes so we got in our trucks and left..no names given. Now, just wondering what your take is in all this?

[Mancaveburnett]

Was he Paul Blart the mall cop?

[bikrsrule]

Pretty much, just a much smaller younger ( I have socks older than him) version..

[whitewing]

Happens some where every year on early ice. Imo you played it correctly. You could have asked him to define "thin ice" and when he last checked it and what method he used. Doesn't pay to get into a p- contest. Think, liability - everyone is afraid of being sued if bad things happen.

[prospector]

My hearing aid batteries would have been dead at that moment. Let him walk out on the ice and tell you that it is not safe.

[Guinea]

It happened to me a few years back on Newfound. Someone must have driven by and thought I was in distress, as I was on my belly looking through the 4" of black ice. Bristol rescue and a cop were standing on shore telling me the ice wasn't safe. They wouldn't listen to me, but Jiggin finally came over and said "How do you know? Have you checked it?" They finally gave up and left.

[3300]

how could his supervisor see the ice conditions or check it to insure the ice was not safe? sounds like the man was not being truthful and was being opinionated and domineering. asking for names was the icing on the cake.

saying the water touches their land is also a false statement as to if they own the water. no one owns the water. so again, not being truthful. i would have asked for his name and badge number and turn him in for harassing a fisherman which is says your not allowed to do in the handbook you get when buying a fishing license the last time i checked.
so have the dnr's number and his supervisors number for when the harassing person shows up again to harass you. you do have rights. should have let him call the pd or call them yourself so they could give him a ticket for harassing fishermen.

[RyanW]

I don’t know, sounds to me like if you were on campus property that the campus didn’t want the liability of people drowning on their grounds. I really don’t blame them on that one. That would be a PR s&$t storm.

[3300]

if they were trespassing then yes, the fishermen were in the wrong.

[ScotNH]

I believe, based on the location, the body of water is Fort Eddy Pond. This pond is a designated public water body. Horseshoe pond is also a public water body.

https://www.des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/pip/publications/wd/documents/olpw.pdf

It is held in trust by the state for the public. See RSA 271:20:

   271:20 State Water Jurisdiction; Published List of Public Waters; Rulemaking. –
I. All natural bodies of fresh water situated entirely in the state having an area of 10 acres or more are state-owned public waters, and are held in trust by the state for public use; and no corporation or individual shall have or exercise in any such body of water any rights or privileges not common to all citizens of this state; provided, however, the state retains its existing jurisdiction over those bodies of water located on the borders of the state over which it has exercised such jurisdiction.
II. The department of environmental services shall prepare, maintain, and publish an official list of all public waters in the state. The commissioner of the department of environmental services shall adopt rules, pursuant to RSA 541-A, relative to this publication.

They have no legal authority to kick you off that pond. They could ask you not to access it via their property, though.

[bikrsrule]

Thank you ScotNH for that information, I think I am going to make some phone calls to the F&G and see what they have to say about what happened, I will make a copy of that RSA also..

[whitewing]

Just to let you know- I came down 393 this AM and there were people fishing at Ft. Eddy.

[bikrsrule]

Its not my #1 place to fish, I only stopped by to chat with the guys fishing to see how much ice and how the fishing was. I hope those guys that were there didnt get kicked off too..

[Arctic Addict]

There's plenty of small ponds in the Concord area to fish, I personally would have just moved on.  My time is precious to me so when I get out to fish I simply want to have a good time.  If a security guard tells me to move on because I'm parked on their property then away I go.  Off to find another spot to fish.  Do I expect the guy to come out and check the ice in early December, no.  They are looking at the civil liability aspect of it, not trying to ruin your fun.

[bikrsrule]

 Arctic Addict , I dont know if you totally read my post but what you said you would do is exactly what we did, we left.

[Arctic Addict]

Bikrsrule I know I read your post.  Just letting you know I would have done the same thing. 

[Bearseatfish]

9 time out of 10 arguing with someone never works out. The cops will be called and ask you to leave, then you call F&G for harassment and on and on it goes. leaving is normally the best option why ruin a good time on the ice.  You did the right thing.

[fishermantim]

9 time out of 10 arguing with someone never works out. The cops will be called and ask you to leave, then you call F&G for harassment and on and on it goes. leaving is normally the best option why ruin a good time on the ice.  You did the right thing.

If you leave, then THEY ruined a good time on the ice.

I fished a local pond years back during the Christmas weekend.
It had rained heavily and the pond had a lot of standing water on the 6-8" of ice underneath.
The local PD drove up, called me over to inform me that they had received a number of calls regarding me on the ice and the ice safety.
I explained to him that I checked the ice as I walked out to verify it's consistency, and then proceeded to jump up and down (I'm over 275lbs) and said "Would I do that if I wasn't sure it's safe?"

He said "Good luck" and drove off.

Sometimes they have to respond, but it doesn't help if they don't know about ice strength and safety.
Quite a few times you will find that you know much more about ice safety than these officers (PD, and EPO) do....

[missoulaicebeerdog]

If someone wants to fish thin ice, that’s their right.  I fish sketchy ice every fall and spring, and I’ve never gone through.  Getting arrested for fishing on thin ice is one of the few things I’d be ok with being arrested for.  One of those notch in the belt fishing career moments. 

[bassin212]

Thank you ScotNH for that information, I think I am going to make some phone calls to the F&G and see what they have to say about what happened, I will make a copy of that RSA also..

Curious to see what F&G has to say. I had a post on here, can't find it anymore. Long story short, I was fishing behind my house on 6 inches of ice and there is a dam on one side that lets out water. Due to the current there was a bit of open water, but wasn't fishing there. I guess ppl passing by called the cops to get me off the unsafe ice. Cop came, called me over. I Explained why there was open water and how I checked and how thick the ice was. She just kept saying you need to get off it's not safe. Because I was only in my backyard I said i'd leave and asked when she deemed it would be safe for me to come back and fish. She couldn't give me an answer. She said something like "I'd have to write a letter to the police and fire department and they would check and then give me permission"

Anyways, I called F&G before leaving and all they said was that if a law enforcement officer is telling me I should leave, I should respect their request to leave. When I explained the whole permission situation, they said no one, not even F&G can declare ice as "safe" for liability purposes. Because you never really know what could happen.

[NateD]

My hearing aid batteries would have been dead at that moment. Let him walk out on the ice and tell you that it is not safe.

Exactly

[NateD]

There's plenty of small ponds in the Concord area to fish, I personally would have just moved on.  My time is precious to me so when I get out to fish I simply want to have a good time.  If a security guard tells me to move on because I'm parked on their property then away I go.  Off to find another spot to fish.  Do I expect the guy to come out and check the ice in early December, no.  They are looking at the civil liability aspect of it, not trying to ruin your fun.

So why waste your time leaving and finding another spot when you aren't doing anything illegal?  If you are accessing a place legally I don't see any way you could be arrested.

If it was me I'm not budging, probably wouldn't have even walked over to the guy.

[lowaccord66]

So why waste your time leaving and finding another spot when you aren't doing anything illegal?  If you are accessing a place legally I don't see any way you could be arrested.

If it was me I'm not budging, probably wouldn't have even walked over to the guy.

100% with you.  As soon as you bail the precedent is set.  Have to stick up for yourself or you'll get rolled by the anti's everytime. 

[SHaRPS]

So why waste your time leaving and finding another spot when you aren't doing anything illegal?  If you are accessing a place legally I don't see any way you could be arrested.

If it was me I'm not budging, probably wouldn't have even walked over to the guy.

Agreed. If it were me I would make them come get me.

When I am open water fishing and get stopped by DEM, they ask if I can show them my fish and  I tell them open up the live well and have at it. If they want to measure them and count them they can get dirty.

[Frozenut]

I was the other person kick off with bikrsrule. To add to his story we were not breaking any laws. The land wasn't posted so there was no trespassing. I decided to leave because the security guard said they owned the water. Fort eddy pond is the name of the water we were on. I looked up the tax map and it clearly shows that NHTI does not own the water. So I will be fishing there again. Here is the tax map

[lowaccord66]

That's a great map.  Even shows how they cant claim you crossed their property to get on the water.  Bring it with you.  Next time rent a cop brothers you, show him that and tell him you'll have the EPO and or Police visit if he keeps harassing you.  (Not sure if NH has a statute re: harassing sportsmen, Mass does so I carry it with me)

I emailed NHTI campus security the following:

It has come to my attention that personel from your office has asked several anglers to leave the ice on Fort Eddy Pond. 

I wanted to warn that anyone from your group telling people to get off the ice are breaking the law.  Please find the attached tax map showing NHTI does not own any property rights to Fort Eddy Pond. 

207:57 Harassment. –
    I. No person shall purposely obstruct or impede the participation of any individual in the lawful activity of hunting, fishing or trapping while that individual is in a designated hunting area on public lands. No person shall enter or remain in a designated hunting area on any state lands with the intent to purposely obstruct or impede the participation of any individual in the lawful activity of hunting, fishing or trapping.

Fort Eddy Pond is a public body of water.  The above statute has been broken anytime one of your employees asks fishermen to leave the ice.

I am going to do two things.  First I am going to discuss this with the Concord police.  Any future attempts by NHTI employees to remove someone from public property will be taken seriously, and will be reported to Concord Police and NH Game wardens. 

I will also be letting several news outlets know that ice fishermen are being harassed by your personal.  Its unbelievable that security staff would try to overstep their authority and subsequently break the law in doing so.

Thank you,

A concerned angler.

I will get with Concord police in the morning and let them know as well.  Please post if the school continues to try to remove you from the ice and we'll escalate accordingly. 

Frozenut you need to call District 5 of the warden service tomorrow and let them know.  The number is (603) 271-3127.  I'd do it for you but I wasnt there so they will only listen so much.

These issues have always hit home with me.  I've dealt with this and the cops so many times just fishing the surf.  It gets old and is getting worse.  For those who've suggested here that listening and leaving is the right thing to do...eventually special interests (think of your least favorite lake associations) will control where you fish...everytime you lay down they win, and we lose. 

[800stealth]

Well done Jon, keep 'em in check...

[lowaccord66]

Well done Jon, keep 'em in check...

Not bad for a 3am email.  Couldn't sleep and I hate these situations.  Those rent a cops should be deported...

[SHaRPS]

Not bad for a 3am email.  Couldn't sleep and I hate these situations.  Those rent a cops should be deported...

X2. Nice work.

[3300]

will continue to follow this thread. thanks for speaking up jon.

this is in our fishing guide for my area. i can't find the statute number for it.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2018-MI-Fishing-Guide-WEB_615716_7.pdf
page 32.

Angler Harassment Information

Anglers in Michigan have the right to enjoy their sport  free  from  unreasonable  and  deliberate  interference. Michigan law prohibits individuals from  obstructing  or  interfering  with  the  lawful  taking  of  aquatic  species.  The  DNR  supports  fishing as a legitimate form of recreation and as a useful  tool  in  the  management  of  aquatic  resources. Michigan Conservation Officers are committed to protecting anglers from the  intentional  disruption  of  the  fishing  experience. Individuals whose fishing is being obstructed should promptly report the violation to the DNR by calling a local conservation  officer,  the  nearest  DNR  office,  or  call  or  text  toll  free  at  800-292-7800 (Report All Poaching hotline).

Curious to see what F&G has to say. I had a post on here, can't find it anymore. Long story short, I was fishing behind my house on 6 inches of ice and there is a dam on one side that lets out water. Due to the current there was a bit of open water, but wasn't fishing there. I guess ppl passing by called the cops to get me off the unsafe ice. Cop came, called me over. I Explained why there was open water and how I checked and how thick the ice was. She just kept saying you need to get off it's not safe. Because I was only in my backyard I said i'd leave and asked when she deemed it would be safe for me to come back and fish. She couldn't give me an answer. She said something like "I'd have to write a letter to the police and fire department and they would check and then give me permission"

Anyways, I called F&G before leaving and all they said was that if a law enforcement officer is telling me I should leave, I should respect their request to leave. When I explained the whole permission situation, they said no one, not even F&G can declare ice as "safe" for liability purposes. Because you never really know what could happen.

what i found disturbing is the co that took the call saying to leave if asked was in the wrong. that person is supposed to enforce the law and protect you from harassment. they have more power than the pd. so a call to the co's supervisor would have been in order or better yet e-mail so it is documented. sounds like the co was lazy and didn't want to ruffle pd feathers and took the easy way out of doing their job.