What,s everyones oppion on the live bait issues

[Irrgang131]

     I know I got off subject but I do agree with the DEC on the spread of the disease.  I know I want to fish the rest of my life and dont want it to get ruined by a disease that we kowingly spread. 

[JJ]

What everyone has to remember is its the DEC who is in the drivers seat, whether right or wrong. They can stop the sale of minnows alltogether to simplify things. Maybe they should ! Today, I'm trying to reach my local assembly man. What are doing for the future of your fishery ?

It's a daily event, I read, educate myself, then educate others.

I think of VHS as a vampire, out in the woods reaking havok, spreading his little disease unchecked. We can sit and argue all about what his next move is, but he goes on his merry way. I just want to inform people not to give this creep a ride to the next town, try to stop him before theres vampires all over the place.

Hands down, I believe that { besides us that are informed }  the spread of this disease will be by human intervention and the people that does it don't even know what VHS means. Its the weekend warrier with a 6 pack in his hand and a party boat. And if you told this dude you better check his bilge, he'd probly punch you in the nose !

It takes once ! then its over for that lake !

Bob, I commend you on your passion regarding the VHS issue, too few sportsmen in NY get involved and too many believe New York State should be able to do everything necessary to provide us great hunting and fishing. As you have stated education of sportsmen is highly important to keep VHS in check, yet difficult to achieve.   
Unfortunately, it only takes on person that does know or doesn't care to screw things up.  Like the idiots that decided to put bass into Little Tupper Lake after the Whitneys turned the property over to NY.  One of the last native brook trout strains pretty much destroyed, for what?
We need more sportsmen to get involved and do something positive for our fisheries.

[adkman]

Captjj

I'm not trying to start a p!!$$!ng match here but you have to agree that although the DEC may know what they are talking about as far as what VHS is and how badly it can effect our fisheries you have to admit that the DEC has a record of putting the cart before the horse.  As I had said in an earlier post as to what we offered to do for them and they agreed it would target the main people they want to.   It's been over a month and we have heard nothing after 3 calls to them.  Also if you check out an article in the Malone Telegram News it states that the removal of the dam in Ft Covington will not help spread VHS.  This dam s less then 3 miles from the St Lawrence River, which is one of the VHS positive sites.  It also stated that the DEC has treated the Salmon river for VHS.  First off there is no treatment as of yet.  This article was sent to them and I asked for a response to clarify the facts.  They have never contacted the paper. (I have realitives who work there)

[hunters08]

I am a commercially licensed Bait Dealer, and have 45 years experience in dipping, transporting, wholesaling and retailing! My experiences in Minnow harvesting has been from Lakes Erie, Ontario, the Niagara River and almost all the  legal l isted tributaries from the PA border to Sodus, New York!

I have seen this condition in Lake Erie Emerald Shiners for atleast the last 8-10 years. The DEC has known about this condition for the last 8 years, and has stood by and done nothing; then one day starts action over this like their pants are on fire.  I know for a fact, NYSDEC  has taken the most expanded regulatory posture of any of the adjoining states who have joined the VHS Band Wagon so far. If you review the regulatory posture, you will see that our agency, the DEC has went ballistic in comparison, as to what is being done by the other states

I petitioned the DEC almost 10 years ago now, to start a Great Lakes reference pannel of Bait Fish, Game Fish, and Non-Game Fish species to include all aquatic life forms from A-Z. This reference pannel would consist of sub samples collected at various areas of ie, Lake Erie and Ontario by species, and the sub samples collected various distances anong the shore line would be composited and frozen in state owned and maintained facilities!

My reason for suggesting this reference pannel was the lack of DNA sample material from the Blue Pike, however one could see how this frozen reference pannel could be archieved, and later tested to determine exactly when any species of Great Lake 
Fish became involved with any occurance such as VHS. The DEC lacks insight, and still has no reference specimens on ice to go back to!
This VHS sampling plan is ajoke as well, the DEC makes these crazy laws like certification and doesn't seem to care how much it costs us sportsmen to procure live bait .The DEC has infected the waters of the Great Lakes by stocking UNCERTIFIED HATCHERY FISH  from out of state sources! This is more so proven by the presence of VHS in fish from Conesus Lake, where years ago the DEC started to stock Western Strain Rainbow Trout The state DEC only started testing brood fish from Western USA sources only after Whirling Disease was found.Forget their theory nonsense of this disease being brought in from ocean  vessels from Europe! They blame everyting on that, give us a break!

I have already seen black market minnows for sale, and am sure it will only get worse, and uncontrollable! I have been force feeding my own fish pond with Lake Erie Emeralds for the last 12 years, and have Trout,Walleye,Perch as well as Black/White Crappie, all on the list of fish suposedly effected by VHS; and have yet to see a infected fish!

Finally in all of this mess, I must admit, that NYSDEC law about the 100 minnows per bucket is not unrealistic; look at Ontario Canada, they have had a 50 minnow per person limit dating back to the 70s

Certain large bait dealers in New York have banded together and are going to sue DEC for this nonsense rules/regulations, it will be fun to see what happens. For now, I have renewed my DEC Commercial Netting License, and all other sub netting licenses for certain cities, villages and towns in hopes that this will blow over soon. I would never pay a red cent to test any lot of minnows, you are just falling into the DEC game plan where they think we are stupid, and will do their work for them,and at  no  cost to them. Too many Good Dooers out there, they keep passing unrealistic laws, and keep taking away or rights! First it was shooting crows only on Friday,Saturdays,Sundays and Mondays, then it was no more splitshot to be sold in New York State, now its contaminated bait on a state wide level. Is the DEC really with us, or against us; hard To Tell isn't it!


bearlake_bob

I think that was well said!!!!

[hunters08]

Mousies, baby, mousies.  Seriously, I've caught plenty of nice perch on them.  So, I might have to work a little harder for decent keepers.  But, that's ok by me.  And I haven't heard of any problems with fatheads, either, unless I'm missing something.

I'll be happy to just get out there and fish.  If I catch enough on Saturday for a nice breakfast for the family Sunday, I'm happy.

Pokerman

Apparently you have never fished lake erie for perch

[stringer]

Well now that the law inforcement has reached the high level they have to have something to right tickets about I personally agree with some, sprotsman will do it lets just try to monitor them.

[stringer]

Just to sum up one experience asked a biologist how to catch a certain bait at a certain lake they said when you figure it out call back and let us know. (yea right )!!

[crayfishbob]

I think that was well said!!!!

Just a observation....

It was a good post, but some of his facts don't measure up. This strain of VHS has not effected trout or salmon for some odd reason.

[hunters08]

What fish has it affected other than sheephead?thanks

[crayfishbob]

Well it did a good job on gobies ! 

Let's see, yellow perch, sheephead, sturgeon, muskies, ....well, here's the report from the aphis site...


Table 1.   Outbreaks of Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia in the Great Lakes 2005-2006

Date  Location  State or Province  Primary species (Other species)  Estimated  Comments 
2003-05  Lake St. Clair  MI  Muskellunge  4 of 27  Samples submitted over several years 
Summer 05  Bay of Quinte /Lake Ontario  Ontario  Freshwater Drum
(Muskellunge Round Goby)  Several hundred tons  Very large natural mortality 
May 06  Sandusky Bay/Lake Erie  OH  Freshwater Drum  Very large mortality  "Windrows" of fish on beach 
May 06  St. Lawrence River  NY  Round Goby
(Muskellunge)  Large die off  River origin 
May 06  Lake Erie  OH  Yellow Perch  Large die off  Fish dying in commercial traps 
May 06  Lake Ontario  Ontario  Freshwater Drum
Smallmouth Bass
Bluegill Crappie  Mortality event  Acute mortality - no external signs 
May 06  Lake Erie  OH  Yellow Perch
Walleye
White bass
(Freshwater Drum Smallmouth Bass)  Mortality in wild  Samples from area of traps and mortality 
June 06  Lake St. Clair  MI  Gizzard shad
Redhorse sucker
Blunt nose sucker
Northern pike
(Yellow perch)  Large mortality   
 
 
What is VHS and where does it occur?  VHS is caused by an aquatic rhabdovirus. It has long been considered a serious disease of rainbow trout and a few other freshwater fish species raised for commercial aquaculture in Europe .   Known as Egtved virus in these fish populations, VHS virus causes high mortality and can have severe economic consequences.   For this reason, VHS is listed as a reportable disease by the World Organization for Animal Health (the OIE ─ formerly the Office International des Epizooties).   Related VHS virus strains have also been isolated from a variety of marine fishes in the North Pacific, North Atlantic , and seas around northern Europe and Japan .

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What everone must understand, its not just the dec, APHIS/ USDA ( the feds, dude)and the World organisation for animal health  are involved. 

And this strain is different from the one in europe, as here it has yet bothered trout/salmon.

 

[wildlifecaretaker]

I have lived at different places through out the country, so I can tell you 1st hand that our DEC is no different in the fact that they are VERY understaffed and underfunded for the things that "should" be done. Keep in mind that it IS a governmental agency that is dictated over by "government" thinkers. The majority within it's ranks are diehard outdoors people and are in it because of a true love and concern for our environment. Personally, I think that the emergency ban on transportation of baitfish(and other fish) was warranted and I commend them for taking what I'm sure they knew would be an unpopular road to help curb the spread of the disease. I do not doubt that they may have known something sooner (even years sooner) as stated previously. The problem I have with that is why didn't they do anything back then. If that is the case, I'm upset that they let it go so long without doing this sooner. However, from what I've read (and no, it's hasn't all been DEC reading material) it doesn't look like it's been in our area for the past 10 years. I just find it hard to believe that the DEC could regulate what was written by federal and private writers on the subject. However, I'm not here to argue over anything, just to state my opinion about the "now" on the subject. Regardless of anything else, I feel with the potential long term impact that this could have on NY states fisheries, that the DEC/state in general are NOT doing a good job on educating the public about the virus in general. For something that could have such a widespread negative impact, I do not think they are following through very well after putting the "emergency regulations" into effect. Like that(emerg regs), somehow in itself, will end or at least contain the problem. That is the single reason that I have agreed to help Bob with the Gander Mountain meeting. I feel that if I can help to educate just one person that day, then I have made a difference. The more we get the word out and recognized by others, the better our chances of helping to contain the problem. Even people that don't fish don't want to have hundreds, thousand or maybe even hundreds of thousands of fish washing up on their shores from something that could have been prevented. The problem has, does and always will lye with us as the outdoors people of NY. Most will do what they can to help in their own way, but not all of us. There will always be that very small percentage that is only out for themselves. All it will take is one person not caring and taking fish not VHS free to a body of water that doesn't have it yet and that will be the start of that lakes infection. There is nothing you can do about them. But if it gets spread because someone was ignorant on the subject, that can not be exceptable. We are part of group that has ALWAYS had to take care of itself. We pay for everything we enjoy in many ways and get little or no help from people outside of our "outdoor" groups. So, it should come as no suprise to anyone that we as NY citizens are going to have to do some work to get this issue publicly recognized. If you don't want to be active, that is fine. Just do your personal part to ensure YOU are not moving the virus around. Also, don't knock people that are trying to be more active no matter how inconsequential or overboard it may appear to you. Division is what makes it so hard to get anything done within a government body. The last thing we need is any kind of division for any reason at all. We all want the same thing! A fishery not only for us to enjoy, but for our children and for generations to come beyond even them!

mike

[coldbum]

  Kids in school should be learning about it, they are sponges, then when they come home they tell their moms and dads and then you have to listen to them, who wants to harm the enviornment in front of their kids? 

AMEN

[adkRoy]

I think its interesting that VHS has been in NY for 5 years and now all of a sudden there is widespread panic from DEC. I want to know what changed. How did it go on so long without much hub-bub.

[crayfishbob]

I think its interesting that VHS has been in NY for 5 years and now all of a sudden there is widespread panic from DEC. I want to know what changed. How did it go on so long without much hub-bub.

Here's how I sum it up.

Ok we have this virus killing fish in the great lakes. Where it came from we have our suspicions, but its unproven.

Then we have a huge amount of food grown in the united states by aquaculturists. Its a multi million dollar business comprising of hundreds of farms.


The national aquacultural association sent this  to APHIS/ USDA :

http://www.nationalaquaculture.org/pages/documents/VHSVltrtoAPHIS.pdf

It basiccly asks APHIS/USDA to take action.

Then a federal order was issued to stop the flow of fish from the great lakes region without being tested fish, inc baitfish.

The DEC was basiclly obligated to do something. All fish fall under what they call "the blue book" as I understand it. They merely standardised it to the guildlines. There is nothing wrong with that.

The guys in the bait business are too busy fighting it, instead, all they had to do is read a little and find testing labs. and work with it.

  Also , its common knowledge to all bait dealers that testing by the blue book has been going on for years. So what's the problem ?


And i'll tell you what, if bootleg minnows are out there and its common knowledge, then its going to get tougher for everyone.

[doctariAFC]

Great Thread, very important, glad to see it is being discussed.

I see some info that is great, on the money, I see other info that is off the mark.  Since I have attended the meetings (Jan 8, Woodlawn Beah) took copious notes, and have the power point presentation the DEC put forth during this meeting, please allow me to shed some light.  LOts of questions, not a ton of answers.

1 - The particular Strain of VHS affects primarily warm water species and baitfish.  Type IV B of VHS differs from the European strain, which was first found in fish culture operations, farming rainbow trout.  It has since been found on both Atlantic and Pacific Coasts of NA, affecting trout and salmon. 

2 - The Federal Order issued 10/24/06 addresses transport of live fish, 37 total species.  Counting marine species, VHS is known to affect over 40, but this is all types of VHS, not solely IV B.  An exception to the halt of live fish movements across the Great Lakes and from Canada, fish which are certified from either a clean source (fish farm, tested and certified annually), or it is a clean "lot", each lot tested, and results are clean, allowed fish stocks used for fish farms, ponds, lakes, etc, to continue.

3 - NYS has been the first state to act in such a fashion, Ontario has followed suit, recently  (@ Jan 1) their own regulations, albeit not as stringent as NYS.

4 - Virus is most active at colder temps (40-60), can show no outward symptoms of illness in afflicted fish, and, again, strikes a wide range of species.  Fish that do survive infection could be carriers of VHS for life, able to infect other fish.

There's more, but, if you want more info, visit one of the many web sites that has info on this pathogen.

Emergency Regs in NYS - which took effect 11/21/06, acts to prohibit collection activities in known infected waters, establishes limits for personal possession (100) of baitfish (alive or dead, don't matter), commercial sale of bait must be certified either origin was from a clean source, or the lot was tested and results were clean.

Personal collection of bait is limited to only the waters where you intend to fish.  As its defined right now, wanna fish Lake Erie, catch bait from Erie.  Wanna Fish Upper Niagara, must catch bait from UNR.  Lower, same, Lake Ontario, same).

Limit, according to DEC, is to reduce the likelihood of intentional or accidental release of minnows into the lake.  They used Ontario's PL of 120 baitfish and PA's limit of 50 baitfish as justification, saying, "we're middle of the road".  Of course, they neglected to inform you that PA's 50 limit is extended to those who collect bait themselves.  If you purchase bait from a dealer, unlimited possession limit, with receipt acting as exemption mechanism.

I see no one here is addressing the private property rights infringements, either.  If you own two ponds, completely contained within your property boundaries, you can NO LONGER MOVE FISH FROM ONE OF YOUR PONDS TO ANOTHER, without testing.  How's that for a kick in the jewels?

Oh, did I mention, NO PUBLIC HEALTH THREAT?

Public Comment period ends today at 5PM.  We have crafted a response, and literally thousands of them will be hitting Shaun Keeler's desk.  You can comment by email.  PM me for the generic copy of the letter, and the email address, if you are interested.

Why is the DEC acting as they are now?  Two words....  New Governor.  Since Sheehan has resigned, her last day was LW Wed., folks are scrambling to make sure they aren't slacking on this issue.  With the short list of potential new commissioners reading like a Who's Who and the Nature Conservancy or Park Dept., (historically not friends to anglers and hunters),  VHS could be a "house-cleaning" excuse.  Let's hope that doesn't happen, especially in Region 9. 

Make no mistake, laws will certainly be changed.  The legislative process isn't started just to reverse it as a "my bad, take back".  But we all should be sending in a comment.

Let me know of your needs.  This one is major.  APologies for not getting to this site sooner...  Lots of issues to contend with and only so many hours in a week.   

[adkman]

Great post and thanks for information.

[dollartrifecta]

so if you buy bait do you get a certificate that says in clean? that way you can show the officer that your legal?  if that wasnt the case how would one know if a baitfish is infected or not?>

[hunters08]

well i hope everyone did what they had to do!!!!

[stickyfingerdpuppeter]

 I am very upset with this whole deal.I have fished on this lake erie for over 30 years since iv been a child.perch fishing in lake erie is the only reason i keep my boat on the water.I do alittle may.june eye fishing in the shallows,i also spin cast for trout and salmon in the fall.For the most part i will chose to sell my boat and move from n.y state.If nosense laws are put through.The idea some bait shop owner,that doesnt even live around here is going to push a law down our throats that prohibits "us"from neting our own bait is ludacrist!Am i the only one who see"s a red flag here?man if i sold bait id be on the wagon in a second.If this person was just a fisherman id be less suspicous.Im going to post in ohio"s area and ask the fishermen whole live there and witnessed this masive kill off of yellow perch and see what they tell us what they have seen.I will also post in the other areas listed to see what these guys have to say aboat this and if it really effected there fishing in that area.And if this vhs has been in lake erie for at least a couple years,wheres all the dead fish??So its okay for a bait dealer to transport minnows from one lake to be sold and used on another lake?that sounds like it would spread it fastr than anything.And how could anyone know for sure the bait was 100%clean?unless every minnow was tested.I know for a fact thousands of guys have netted millions of emeralds over the years and have brought it to onedia lake<chautauqua lake ect and have done so everyweek or so for the last 100years.If its gona spread by using emerald shinners than it must be to late.once it gets into chaut.lake it will travle down the chatacoin?spelling/?and into the allegany river and into the mississippi river ways>is our fishing doomed?or will we see a bunch of crazy no sense laws<and maybe  22tons of dead sheaphead?wildlifecaretaker are you at all in the bait buess?or are you just a concernd fisherman?just curious.I will post more.peace

[Mr.Esox]

It really is unenforceable they need another plan.

[crayfishbob]

doctariAFC  --- great post. I wish you were here for the last 2 months. Dig back in posts, there are many posts. Most of what you wrote has been covered, and its good to see it all compiled completly like that. I hope this post keeps going !


Mr. Esox--  Yes the plan. I just wish DEC would stop the taking of infected baitfish all together. I got a privare message about guys hording infected minnows. That's positivly insane.

[JeffreyKrow]

I am still a little in the dark about how we prove to an ECO that we have certified minnows. Do we get a certificate proving that our minnows are legal?? How does this crap work??
                                                                                             JK

[crayfishbob]

You as a fisherman with a fishing liscence have nothing to prove unless you have over 100 minnows. IF you do get asked where you got them, tell them that's all.   


If you use bait that you personally cought, then you still can only have 100, then only can use them in the body of water you gcought them in.

[wildlifecaretaker]

I am still a little in the dark about how we prove to an ECO that we have certified minnows. Do we get a certificate proving that our minnows are legal?? How does this crap work??
                                                                                             JK

YOU do not have to. The bait shop is supposed to have posted or at least have available a certificate showing the the bait is tested and deemed VHS free. You do not need anything out there with you. That is one of the holes that a lot of the people on here are complaining about. It seems to be a hollow threat, so to speak,  with the DEC relying on the honor system when it comes to fisher-people.

stickyfingerdpuppeter-I am just a fisherman and complete lover of the outdoors. I'm not a scientist or otherwise any kind of guru on this subject, but I have enough information to try to help prevent the spread of the problem. That alone is what my personal agenda is....education! I had missed it previously, but I LOVED the idea of presenting it to children at school and then letting them bring it home to their parents. As stated, nobody wants to look unconcerned in front of their children. In general, I don't see a lot more that we can do to help the cause other than to help to educate anyone who will listen. They have worked on "cures" and vaccines with little success. What few things have been tried have effected such an extremely small percentage of the test fish(or not worked at all) that for all practical purposes, it was deemed not to be effective. Anyone interested in looking at more info for themselves can do a search for "VHS virus" and a TON of stuff comes up. I tried to stay away from "things" put out by governments, state or federal, and looked for papers put out by academia. For myself, I don't usually get involved in things like this. My time is generally put into the environment or animals directly, so this is a little new to me. I have volunteered at the hatcheries, at various wildlife rehabs, nature centers, etc. In Nebraska, I belonged to an ATV club and we would go out into area and help to reseed, clear debris and other things to help out the parks around the state. I also do everything within my power to instill my love of and respect for our environment into the heads and hearts of ALL the kids in my life. I try to keep out of the political and public parts of issues. However, I felt that I could help with this, so here I am. I just felt that the state was dropping the ball with their almost complete lack of educating the public. I know there have been meeting, news articles, etc, but I feel they have fallen WAY short on their responsibility. I don't care what other states are or are not doing as I don't live in them. I do care I guess, but as the saying goes, concentrate on your own back yard 1st.

On a side note, good luck to all that are finally getting out on the ice. I will be heading to the the 1000 islands area this weekend i think if anyone would like to meet me there or accompany me from the Syracuse area. Just don't get crazy from the long wait and rush into the unknown. The last thing any of us wants to hear about is that someone has gone through the ice. Stay on top and catch a big one for NY for the IS online derby.


mike

[hunters08]

I am very upset with this whole deal.I have fished on this lake erie for over 30 years since iv been a child.perch fishing in lake erie is the only reason i keep my boat on the water.I do alittle may.june eye fishing in the shallows,i also spin cast for trout and salmon in the fall.For the most part i will chose to sell my boat and move from n.y state.If nosense laws are put through.The idea some bait shop owner,that doesnt even live around here is going to push a law down our throats that prohibits "us"from neting our own bait is ludacrist!Am i the only one who see"s a red flag here?man if i sold bait id be on the wagon in a second.If this person was just a fisherman id be less suspicous.Im going to post in ohio"s area and ask the fishermen whole live there and witnessed this masive kill off of yellow perch and see what they tell us what they have seen.I will also post in the other areas listed to see what these guys have to say aboat this and if it really effected there fishing in that area.And if this vhs has been in lake erie for at least a couple years,wheres all the dead fish??So its okay for a bait dealer to transport minnows from one lake to be sold and used on another lake?that sounds like it would spread it fastr than anything.And how could anyone know for sure the bait was 100%clean?unless every minnow was tested.I know for a fact thousands of guys have netted millions of emeralds over the years and have brought it to onedia lake<chautauqua lake ect and have done so everyweek or so for the last 100years.If its gona spread by using emerald shinners than it must be to late.once it gets into chaut.lake it will travle down the chatacoin?spelling/?and into the allegany river and into the mississippi river ways>is our fishing doomed?or will we see a bunch of crazy no sense laws<and maybe  22tons of dead sheaphead?wildlifecaretaker are you at all in the bait buess?or are you just a concernd fisherman?just curious.I will post more.peace

I agree that the bait dealers Should not have a say in weather or not i can catch my own bait.especially if the testing is going to happen the way crayfish has explained it.Let us all know what the ohio board says about there massive die off of yellow perch from VHS.  Thank you

[wildlifecaretaker]

posted by hunters08****I agree that the bait dealers Should not have a say in weather or not i can catch my own bait.especially if the testing is going to happen the way crayfish has explained it.Let us all know what the ohio board says about there massive die off of yellow perch from VHS.  Thank you****

I have to admit that i catch so little of my own bait, that what you 2 have stated has not really been in my thoughts during this whole thing. However, upon reading and thinking about what you have said, I have to admit that I see where you are going with what you've said and have to agree with you to a certain degree. I think they should have input, but no more or less than anyone else that this problem will effect. I can see SOME people(bait dealers) taking advantage of a situation like this. Most I don't think would, but there's always got to be those few that ruin it for a whole group. Bob, don't take offense to that as I like and trust you to do the right thing for yourself, your customers and most importantly your environment. However, not all are like you. To the others on here, I'm not attacking you either, just making a general statement. The comment just made sense after I had thought about it for a little bit.

mike

[doctariAFC]

doctariAFC  --- great post. I wish you were here for the last 2 months. Dig back in posts, there are many posts. Most of what you wrote has been covered, and its good to see it all compiled completly like that. I hope this post keeps going !


Mr. Esox--  Yes the plan. I just wish DEC would stop the taking of infected baitfish all together. I got a privare message about guys hording infected minnows. That's positivly insane.

Ditto.  Been up to my you know what politicking on this issue.  Its a bit mind boggling to say the least.  My top beef with the proposals are the private property rights infringements.  My buddy, and regular here, THEOZON, is facing property rights infringements with his land and ponds.  Its FUBAR. 

Another issue is the commercial collection of baitfish from the Great Lakes.  No commercial collection of bait from waters to be known to be infected.  But personal collection of bait is ok.  What we are proposing is to prohibit personal collection of bait from the Great Lakes, but allow commercial collection and sale for use in the Great Lakes only.  The trouble is enforcement, as many have pointed out.  The commercial baitfish dealers are KNOWN.  Individual anglers are not.  Here, this is the letter that was sent by many, many folks to the DEC.  This was crafted by myself and Dave Barus, Corresponding Secretary of the ECFSC, our fish comittee chairman, and a member of the Erie County Fisheries Advisory Board:

Mr. Shaun Keeler
NYSDEC – Bureau of Fisheries
625 Broadway
Albany, NY 12233-4753


RE:  6NYCRR Parts 10 – Sportfishing Regulations, 35 – Licenses, and 188 – Fish Health Inspections Requirements - Draft Proposals – Formal Comment

Dear Mr. Keeler;

I write this concerning the proposed draft regulations presented by the NYSDEC in response to the discovery of Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia in NYS waters, and the efforts aimed at containing the spread of this potentially damaging pathogen to other waters.

Although I agree we must act to protect our State’s waters, natural resources and fisheries, I believe the regulations as proposed will accomplish none of the goals intended, while causing greater harm to the abilities of the NYSDEC to protect the State’s resources, and set dangerous and unnecessary precedence regarding property rights and the authority of the State.

Transport of live fish, as it pertains to private property/ private pond owners

•   Current proposed regulations would effectively strip property owners of their rights to transport fish (species listed on the Federal order dated 10/24/06) between private bodies of water contained within their property boundaries. 

•   Since no public health threat exists with VHS, the State has no legal right to impose such regulations.

Personal Limit of 100 baitfish per angler (alive or dead)

•   Recommend changing this proposal to apply in a similar intent as PA, 100 – baitfish per angler, if personally collected for personal use in the body of water where it was collected. 

•   Anglers purchasing bait from a licensed bait dealer would be exempt from this regulation (unlimited possession of baitfish,) with proof of sale (receipt) acting as the exemption mechanism.

•   In all waters exclusive of the Great Lakes and Niagara Rivers, and all related tributaries, personal collection/ trapping of bait is permitted, for use in the body of water where collection took place.

•   Personal collection of bait from Great Lakes, Niagara Rivers and related tributaries is strictly prohibited.

Prohibition of Commercial Collection of Baitfish from known infected waters

•   Prohibit personal collection of bait from the Great Lakes and its Tributaries, including Niagara Rivers.

•   Only Commercial collection of bait permitted in Great Lakes and Niagara Rivers for use in Great Lakes and Niagara Rivers ONLY, collected and sold via licensed commercial baitfish dealers.

•   Sale of bait to anglers must be accompanied by a certificate/ wire band, stating water of origin, date collected, license number of collector/ seller, and stating “FOR USE IN LAKE ERIE or LAKE ONTARIO or NIAGARA RIVER ONLY”.

•   Notice of penalties for violating the law – like, failure to adhere to these laws may result in a $5,000 fine and/ or 30 days in jail.

•   No personal limits apply to anglers who purchase bait from a licensed bait dealer.

•   Signs/ public notice of prohibition of personal collection of bait from Great Lakes and Niagara Rivers and related tributaries must be posted in key and well known bait collection areas as to notify anglers that personal collection of bait from said waters is strictly prohibited.

Additional State Pathologists

•   Recommend NYS pass additional legislation to hire two (2) new fisheries pathologists, to compliment the one (1) pathologist already on staff.

•   The key to successfully containing any pathogen is early detection and action (something not done in this case, or past cases.)

Establish Angler Monitoring Program

•   Legislation for funding of establishing and implementing an angler monitoring program must also be included in any new legislation.

•   Anglers represent our best and first line of defense.  A collection system of reported observations must accompany and work in conjunction with other containment efforts, as to speed detection of potential problems for faster action.

•   Recommend a committee be created to develop the needed items for implementation of this “early warning system”.

•   Educational materials and other vehicles geared to develop basic knowledge to anglers to act as proper stewards of the resources we enjoy.

•   Monitoring to also include invasive species.

Further restrictions and enforcement of foreign freighter ballast and bilge waters

•   Recommend speedy passage of legislation requiring all bilge and ballast of all vessels, commercial or otherwise, of foreign origin; be subject to a minimum concentration of chlorine, or other suitable chemical, in the waters of ballast and bilge.

•   Testing of these waters for treatment in acceptable concentrations must occur prior to entering the Hudson River or Seaway, conducted at the time of entering the Port of New York.

•   The Great Lakes are the world’s largest source of freshwater, warranting vigorous protection from potentially dangerous pathogens, as to protect public health (West Nile Virus).  NYS can control this without Federal intervention.


I thank you for your time in reading these important comments, and I hope you will consider these with the seriousness I have considered them as well.

I therefore am formally opposed to the current Draft Proposal Regulations, 6NYCRR Parts 10-Sportfishing Regulations, 35-License, and 188-Fish Health Inspections.

[pieman1998]

sometime i think it's just away to put the small bait shops out of bussince.and make if hard to get bait. to rise the prices 

[crayfishbob]

I like your straight forward attitude. However I disagree on the baitfish collection from the great lakes. Nobody should be able to do this. The trouble lies in the individuals that purchace them. It will be a great big regulatary mess and enforcement issues.

What is wrong with catching non infected minnows ?


also, I have started up vhs issues on my personal site : www.oneidalake.us/forum

[doctariAFC]

I like your straight forward attitude. However I disagree on the baitfish collection from the great lakes. Nobody should be able to do this. The trouble lies in the individuals that purchace them. It will be a great big regulatary mess and enforcement issues.

What is wrong with catching non infected minnows ?


also, I have started up vhs issues on my personal site : www.oneidalake.us/forum

ONe of the issues that has come up, and came up during the Jan 8 meeting, is that it is very difficult to determine what minnows are infected and what minnows are not.  EVen out of waters which show VHS presence, not every fish is infected.  Enforcement becomes the big issue, and in terms of Great Lakes bait, it cannot be easily enforced by allowing personal collection and no commercial collection, or even stating no collection personal or commercial. 

The commercial bait dealers are known, as they are all licensed and regularly inspected by the DEC.  This reduces the distribution of potentially infected minnows to a KNOWN distribution source.  This also now makes the DEC and commercial bait collectors "partners" in enforcing the intentions of the law. 

Lot testing is joke.  Only AFS certified testing is cell culture.  The methodology is to take 1/2 the sample and incubate and test after 1st 14 day period, then the remaining half and incubate another 14 days and test again.  This assures 95% certainty of a clean lot.  Problem is, most bait will not keep that long.  Set aside the # of pathogens being tested.  Its a good intention, but the results would be basically no bait.   

Back to commercial collection in Great Lakes, with commercial licensed dealers out every day collecting bait, the chances of them seeing violations are higher than the DEC seeing it.  They're not out there every day like commercial dealers are. 

Ultimately, it is up to all of us to obey the existing laws.  It is already on the books to not release baitfish into bodies of water that are not the origin.  Nothing can prevent this from happening besides individual responsibility.  Certainly, stiff penalties for getting caught may act as a deterrent.  The DEC needs all the help we can give them, and by ceasing commercial bait dealers from collecting and selling bait from the Great Lakes, for use in Great Lakes only, really opens up the distribution avenues and could compound the problems.  It makes sense to me, and this is why Dave and I crafted this part of the comment in this way.