Whitefish etc.IFW "Volume I Managing Maine’s Inland Fisheries into the Future"

[woodchip]

 blacktrap You must be a commercial logger or connected to one.

[Anomaly]

blacktrap You must be a commercial logger or connected to one.

blacktrap knows more about whitefish than most everyone in the state. Aside from that, maybe the participants in this thread can begin squeaking the wheel loudly at IFW!!! I'm going to myself, soon. First I have some shellfish squeaking to do around here and with DMR... Glad I ain't bored!!! hehe

[woodchip]

It's great That we can all put in our 2% worth. Are clam shell getting more Brittle???

[woodchip]

Shutterstock
The world’s shellfish are under threat as our oceans become more acidic
Published: January

[Anomaly]

It's great That we can all put in our 2% worth. Are clam shell getting more Brittle???

They are not... Green crabs ARE the biggest issue. To a degree, so far, the acidification effecting clams is the setting of spat on the flats. Acidity in the upper most surface can dissolve or harm shell development on post planktonic juveniles. BUT and Having said that, Consider the fact clams settle at about 1mm. Green crabs set at 2 - 3 mm and immediately start feeding on anything smaller or similar + in size. Between those impinging factors and other predation and weather impacts along with new species following warming waters, soft shell calms/steamers/Mya arenaria are having a hard time making it.. PREDATION, AT THIS POINT, IS THE BIGGEST DETRIMENT TO MYA...

[Anomaly]

It's great That we can all put in our 2% worth. Are clam shell getting more Brittle???

SO, It would appear predation is the largest factor effecting whitefish AND clams....

[woodchip]

predation is  acid water

[nbourque]

Poor fisheries management and increased angler pressure equals poor fishing all around. This is what I have observed over the last couple years. The future looks dismal unless something drastic happens.

[eiderz]

Poor fisheries management and increased angler pressure equals poor fishing all around. This is what I have observed over the last couple years. The future looks dismal unless something drastic happens.

I'm not sure whether it's poor management and/or fishing pressure, but it's been dismal on Moosehead and a couple of other lakes. In over 50 years, last year and this year are the worst two years in memory. Both open water and on the ice. I fish a lot so I catch a large number over time, but daily numbers were way down. There's still togue but salmon were in short supply. I don't target brookies too often so I don't have a feel for them. The average fish were smaller (but not racers/stunted) which might also indicate overharvest. I'd like to think it's related to the drought, but I guess it's more likely the fish are being hammered. The internet directs everyone to Moosehead, the overall number of guys on the ice on a weekend is pretty impressive. Not good for Moosehead, but maybe it spares some of the lesser known lakes.

[woodchip]

If a Farmer does not maintain his garden and keep PH   high the crops will get worst every year.  Blame over fishing or togue or poor management.

[jacksmelt71]

i believe its a combination of eveything mentioned here. logging being one of the worse effecting water quality. intoduction of non natives that compete with them for food/ space and failed attempts to fix the problem and sometimes making it worse. even in the lakes that still have them the clock is ticking. one other thing that really affects them is mid summer when they are concentrated in deep holes. i know guys that anchor on a large school and jig up alot of them. even if released when they are brought up thru that warm surface water , they die.  so a couple guys jig up 30 whites just killed all 30. why i wont fish for them in the summer.

[woodchip]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/conserving-forests-is-the-fastest-most-effective-way-to-stabilize-our-climate/ar-AAVjpe8?ocid=msedgdhp

[jacksmelt71]

its sad that we cant reach a compromise. stop clearcuts and do selective cutting. clearcutting a whole hardwood mountain and replanting all softwood is not good for anything except the landowner. i know its their land but their practices are affecting everything downstream. irving is the worst offender here and sen. troy jackson lets them get away with it because hes one of them! see the problem here. sen. collins is no better! 40yrs of clearcutting leaves a area already with very little topsoil, with even less with each cutting. soon the new trees replanted wont have the soil to grow as its so depleted or not there at all. will be a stunted, barren wasteland and they own hundreds of thousands of acres up here. what animals can survive in that? feeder brooks and springs will dry up and with no trees to shade them , temps will spike in bigger brooks and streams. might as well stock bass and carp in our lakes up here. only fish that will survive that.

[woodchip]

They sure need to give it more thought, Years ago they would fine great Northern for cutting to close to ponds, But cutting was intentional as the trees were worth more than the fine so they did not hesitate to cut all the big beautiful groves to the waters edge.

[eiderz]

If you take a plane ride over northern Maine, the extent of the clearcutting is alarming. I believe two things are providing the impetus for accelerated cutting in the north woods.
1. The obvious one is the price of, and demand for, lumber and other forest products.
2. The forest owners know that the Federal Government, led by Angus King and his Senate committee, intends to take the north woods as a park. Obviously there would be "Fair Market Value" payment for it, or a huge tax writeoff. But there would likely be no more or very limited logging. Get the wood while you can. Can't wait to hear about restrictions on fishing/icefishing, hunting, snowsledding. Access for sportsmen has been the deal with the devil for generations, can't say that I have any gripes in that regard.

[MadSledder]

Jeeze Woodchip do you work for alka seltzer? "The acidity! The Acidity!" "It Killed Sebago" Now I don't mean to be mean and pick on you personally but lets take a look at some numbers. There is a lot of decent public information available on the Lakes of Maine website. So lets take a look a some numbers rather than any personal attacks or vague claims.

https://www.lakesofmaine.org/lake-chemistry.html?m=5786

And once you search around and find the pH page, that can be swiped, and plotted in excel. Of course remember the higher numbers are "less" acidic, and 7 is neutral.

So... the Ph of Sebago over the years:


Is it getting more acidic? Less acidic? No trend?
I don't know. Hard to conclude overall. It looks like maybe an upward trend through the 70s 80s 90s. Possibly that was due to environmental regulations kicking in and the end of acid rain and such. Since then, data becomes sparse. It might be going down or might be much more of a "No trend." The data that we do have certainly seems to be in the "happy" ballpark for most species of fish.

"Ya but what was it historically? The whitefish were gone or just about gone by the 70s!" - Yeah, you are right. I don't know what the pH was in historical times. I don't know what it was in the 50s and 60s. I'm not speculating to those, just presenting some hard data that is easy to find and publicly available.

"Ya but thats not what it's doing on my lake!" - Yeah, you are probably right. This is one lake. Down East Maine is certainly a lot more acidic and suffering more lingering effects of forestry and acid rain. I'm not trying to say acidity is not the problem ANYWHERE, But I am saying its probably not the problem EVERYWHERE.

As the gangsters say: Mo' lakes, Mo' problems!

[Anomaly]

 

https://www.lakesofmaine.org/lake-chemistry.html?m=5786

And once you search around and find the pH page, that can be swiped, and plotted in excel. Of course remember the higher numbers are "less" acidic, and 7 is neutral.

So... the Ph of Sebago over the years:


"Ya but what was it historically? The whitefish were gone or just about gone by the 70s!" - Yeah, you are right. I don't know what the pH was in historical times. I don't know what it was in the 50s and 60s. I'm not speculating to those, just presenting some hard data that is easy to find and publicly available.

"Ya but thats not what it's doing on my lake!" - Yeah, you are probably right. This is one lake. Down East Maine is certainly a lot more acidic and suffering more lingering effects of forestry and acid rain. I'm not trying to say acidity is not the problem ANYWHERE, But I am saying its probably not the problem EVERYWHERE.

Thanks MadSledder!!! Great info and take on the issue!!!

[woodchip]

What happened in Sebago to White fish in Sebago  in two years later the same thing happened to Moosehead lake, then a couple of years later Chesuncook Caribou Lake started to loose their White fish, There was a lot of talk about the acid fallout from our southern states at that time.in the Northern areas weather frontals start to swing east and lakes north of Chesuncook seem to not be affected as much. so lets not Blame Togue as cause for fish loss in Sebago. All other lakes in Northern   Lakes  Had Togue and Salmon in them for ever and they are having same problem.

[nbourque]

What happened in Sebago to White fish in Sebago  in two years later the same thing happened to Moosehead lake, then a couple of years later Chesuncook Caribou Lake started to loose their White fish, There was a lot of talk about the acid fallout from our southern states at that time.in the Northern areas weather frontals start to swing east and lakes north of Chesuncook seem to not be affected as much. so lets not Blame Togue as cause for fish loss in Sebago. All other lakes in Northern   Lakes  Had Togue and Salmon in them for ever and they are having same problem.

Togue may not be the number one problem but in a case like sebago they are a HUGE problem. Massive amounts of small togue eat everything in sight leaving no feed aka smelt for salmon to thrive.
We have a huge problem in this state with fisheries management. Too many special interests and bs POLITICS involved. The biologists can only do so much.

[woodchip]

Chesuncook and Caribou lake has a no limit on Salmon . why?  togue have been in there forever.   Its great to go home with 50 Salmon for the smoker.

[Moosekill]

Another way to look at the proper way to take care of our woodlands.  Compare all land to Farmland, Farmers know it is necessary to fertilize and lime the soil to make it necessary for crops to grow over fertilize or under Lime to keep PH at proper level will create a poor crow. What do loggers do to keep land Healthy??  Allowing excessive tree cutting has damaged our lakes streams and the ocean.  Now everyone wants to blame wrong species of fish or over harvesting of fish.

You state many things as if they are facts, when they aren't really. 

Smelt were introduced into many lakes to feed the salmon and other game fish.  Whitefish live a long time but produce few youngs.  Smelts eat the young whitefish.  Lake trout were added to many lakes.  They eat whitefish.  There aren't many whitefish left.  Hmmm....

In 2012 the IFW leadership adopted a lake trout plan for Sebago Lake.  They thought setting up a slot would allow lake trout to get bigger and the bigger lake trout would eat the smaller lake trout and self remedy the over population of lake trout.  This was taken from a program developed in the mid west.  It worked in that the bigger lake trout ate the smaller lake trout.  However, they also ate all the smelts and salmon and created a huge overpopulation of larger lake trout in Sebago.  Which has made the salmon fishing suck.  Hmmmm.......

In the 1800 there were firewood shortages throughout New England.  Most of the land in From Southern Maine South was farming fields.  Stating that current logging practices in Southern Maine are ruining fishing here is plain silly, and pretty much without merit.  The lakes ponds rivers and streams are much much healthier and cleaner than they were in the 50's onward well into the 2000's  Hmmmm...

[woodchip]

Moosekill   Dream on!!!!!!!!!

[blacktrap]

Trying to speculate or solve why whitefish disappeared from various lakes isnt going to bring them back.  The water quality of all those lakes is good enough to support whitefish.  If people want them back again the only way that will happen is to somehow have a seriously well funded stocking program.  It isnt rocket science, Ontario does it, Just going to take alot of money and resolve to do it.

[Moosekill]

Moosekill   Dream on!!!!!!!!!

Or we can just make stuff up and pretend we know stuff.  Spouting nonsense on ice fishing forums may make you happy, but it doesn't fix the problem.  It isn't the water quality.  It isn't the logging.  It is the smelts, and as Blacktrap posted, the only way to fix it is to introduce stocking programs to bring them back.

[woodchip]

It is the water quality. and until we admit to it , conditions will go down,  Acid fallout!!!!  it happened in  a time condition from Sebago to Moosehead to Chesuncook, Caribou, Ripogenious , and at that point in time and direction of frontal system.  it  is a fact.

[Anomaly]

Trying to speculate or solve why whitefish disappeared from various lakes isnt going to bring them back.  The water quality of all those lakes is good enough to support whitefish.  If people want them back again the only way that will happen is to somehow have a seriously well funded stocking program.  It isnt rocket science, Ontario does it, Just going to take alot of money and resolve to do it.

Yep, There needs to be a concerted effort... Stocking, including stocking adults that have been live trapped, would be a good beginning. A lake I know was "stocked" by locals with hook and line caught whitefish in the seventies. Now, only large older fish remain. They had established a spawning population but they apparently no longer spawn successfully. A bio I fish with has caught them on early ice and seen a few remaining eggs in the fish he kept. Meanwhile, I have seen dense and wide clouds of smelt in multiple holes jigging there. A couple of times I saw this in more than half the "run and gun" jigging holes I drilled. Smeltig is not allowed in the water body. The whitefish originally came from West Grand, I'm told.

[Moosekill]

I have discussed whitefish with the biologists who study them.  Biggest problem is the smelts. 

[Anomaly]

I have discussed whitefish with the biologists who study them.  Biggest problem is the smelts.

YEP! That's what i hear fro those folks too. Sebago likely has other issues along with smelt.

[woodchip]

Why do you suppose they stopped dipping smelts in the spring everywhere???

[Anomaly]

Why do you suppose they stopped dipping smelts in the spring everywhere???

Not everywhere.... BUT, to feed salmon and togue.... mostly. Whitefish are not a priority for IFW, not a revenue source for fisheries economies.... Places where whitefish were once a lot more numerous or still existed were stocked with smelt FOR trout salmon and togue forage.