catch and release fishing makes it harder for fish to eat

[chartreusealltheway]

didn't want to add this huge topic to someone else's thread,  I've caught and released allot of fish in my time, but I think it makes sense that sport fishing doesn't make sense in the long run. heres an article on what I heard a lady angler talking about, it was her thesis I believe and I believe she lived in Canada. she said the hole in the perch mouth from a hook took away 35 percent of the suction power that a fish uses to eat food.  they were able to study this with super slow motion cameras, something that hasn't been available in the past.  she also mentioned that she is going to continue fishing.  heres the article from Newsweek, although many other places covered this, I heard it on npr
https://www.newsweek.com/mouth-injuries-hooks-make-hard-eat-1163203

[coldcreekchris]

can of worms here.....agree so much ..but at times..its not so simple....I have never fished for sport..but I do understand that logic....never understood the kill everything you catch mentality....so the issue is a can of worms...for me...its keep what you need for substenance..let the big ones go...fish in a way that does the minimal damage to a fish when you release it...but that's just me....others do what they will do...obviously..stress and numbers of anglers make each bodies of water site specific...

[coldcreekchris]

just my 2 cents..and this doesn't apply to everyone..there is a point in every fishermans life..when they let a big fish go..and it is a wonderful feeling....

[Wenger]

Reading the actual study, this is very selective "science" and very poor science at that. 

Firstly they have a sample size of TEN fish, all a sort of sea perch.  Then they do not identify the size or style of hook used.  The do not differentiate between punctures, tearing of the membrane attached to the premaxilla bones or the remainder of the membranes which comprise the suction mechanism in fish such as crappies, pike, walleye, trout, bass or perch, compared to hooking the fish in the hard portions of the mouth. (This brings the hook type/size into question).  The article falsely claims that the results apply to trout and other species when the study does not (ie Time magazine as posted) do so.  Here's the kicker...they CANNOT even come to a conclusion.

"Fishing injuries in nature are likely to depress feeding performance of fish after they have been released, although it is currently unclear whether this has a significant impact on survival."

To make the claim that all fish should be kept, based on this "study" is quite obviously...well it is off the mark to be nice.

As with all science these days we need to look deeper than the headline. The devil is in the details as always and all too often a certain result is being sought. For this study to be of any use other than for the authors who have to produce and have published X number of "studies" to pad resumes and be able to claim to be published X number of times which sadly is the gold standard of science now, and has a huge effect on funding and hiring. In fact many organizations demand their employees produce X number of published 'studies' to keep that organization relevant within this closed strange world of science journals.  This is one reason I never went down the academic track, it is a faux world filled with sheep who are forced into being part of the herd of current consensus. (Part of the reason FWP is in the state it is in currently I would suspect).

So to further investigate this study I would encourage others to open it in the link, click on an author and then click on their PubMed history. The most recent published study (and you can see to my point that they pump out several a year each) by the lead author is entitled "Empathy as a moderator of sexual violence perpetration risk factors among college men." So can we even consider this to be true "science" or social science?   This encapsulates perfectly what is wrong with science now.  All these clowns simply jump onto a simpleton study conducted under less than scientific conditions or standards, or just barely by the book hoping not to be peer reviewed by anyone that knows anything about the subject, and they get credit for being published.  Could anyone please explain how any legitimate scientist could possibly produce 4-6 scientifically valid biological studies in a single year?  No wonder there is so much skepticism about topics such as global warming causes when these scams are rife across the scientific/academic communities?

A few additional thoughts. Bass, a major sport fish that is seldom kept is a classic suction feeder.  Even in tournaments a vast majority survive. Walleyes in the MO below Cascade which someone was tagging with zip ties through the mouth for some strange reason were being recaught time after time.  I had a client catch the SAME cutty in the Lamar on a green drake fly three times within 40 minutes, not to mention that before the barbless regs went into effect in the park most of the cutts were missing manabiles and had deformed maxilla. When I was guiding the Yellowstone we always had big browns sussed out in in certain places throughout the summer, and would catch the same fish as many as ten times a season on streamers or chubbies. In the Spring Creeks we would catch the same fish all season, with ten anglers per day on OHairs over a mile and  a bit of stream all catching several fish per day we knew that had we not released those fish none would have been in the creek by July.  Even pike and musky are suction feeders,  though they like trout do have teeth used to help hold larger prey until they can be maneuvered head first to swallow, are caught and released over and over. We have all caught them with reddened areas of the mouth caused by hooks.

The danger of these faux studies is that they feed right into the animal rights/fish torture narrative which HAS  resulted in regulations in Germany  requiring 100%
catch and kill.  As such they are either stocking streams or reducing limits...or in several cases ceasing sport fishing in some streams.

Lets be careful with trying to justify our own personal biases vis vis catch and keep vs catch and release with this sort of study.  Ethics are only constrained by the law. If someone thinks that they are killing many of the fish they release then by all means keep 15 tiny perch or whatever is legal and  feel good about it. If someone wants to keep a 34 inch walleye in Peck that is fine too.  But lets not turn pseudo science into the standard that dictates the direction our sport takes.

 I would also encourage FWP to take a step back and start thinking out of their particular box and start operating in the real world of sport fishing and maximizing OUR resources to OUR benefit rather than managing with their heads tucked into their shells, more scared of stepping out of line and risking the wrath, being branded a rebel and threat of exclusion from the club (and future employment opportunities). As with any organization, the more dedicated to the consensus one is the higher up you go.

That all said, let's use appropriate hooks, release fish carefully no matter the size or species and respect the resource which includes each and every fish we catch. Just my 2 cents. 
 

[appleye]

Wenger nice reply! You are spot on.

[chartreusealltheway]

all I'm saying is as we learn more we need to adapt our fishing methods.  overfishing is going to kill this wonderful thing we have going in this state, whether we keep fish or release them.  one thing for sure is once a fish is kept...its dead.  releasing fish has an unknown consequence and its a wonderful thought to think that they survived after releasing.  I happen to doubt they survive for long. based off of this, if I catch and keep a dinner, I officially killed 1 or 2 fish, if somebody fishes for fun then let 20 or 30 go. nobody knows for sure what happens to all these fish 1 week down the road. lets say 90 percent make it. thats 2 or 3 dead fish, thus more dead fish. 
also, this article pertains to perch which nobody lets a big perch go. they are the small ones that are released, with small mouths, using the same hooks as for the standard perch these hooks would definitely impact a smaller mouth more.  I like the analogy of a straw with a hole in it being hard to suck through, I find it almost impossible to use once the straw wall has a hole in it.  I can only imagine what it does to a fish when each day is a search for food, these fish haven't adapted in many years and something as small as a hole in the lip would surely do these fish in. 
the interview I heard on this also mentioned catching the fish in a tank not 40 ft down. at 40 ft there is a struggle to reel a perch in, maybe 10 to 20 seconds, making the hole bigger. 
based off of other post you made, it sounds like you released allot of fish, so did i.  but you have a truth to open your eyes to, maybe just maybe, more fish were dying than you thought. 

[NateD]

all I'm saying is as we learn more we need to adapt our fishing methods.  overfishing is going to kill this wonderful thing we have going in this state, whether we keep fish or release them.  one thing for sure is once a fish is kept...its dead.  releasing fish has an unknown consequence and its a wonderful thought to think that they survived after releasing.  I happen to doubt they survive for long. based off of this, if I catch and keep a dinner, I officially killed 1 or 2 fish, if somebody fishes for fun then let 20 or 30 go. nobody knows for sure what happens to all these fish 1 week down the road. lets say 90 percent make it. thats 2 or 3 dead fish, thus more dead fish. 
also, this article pertains to perch which nobody lets a big perch go. they are the small ones that are released, with small mouths, using the same hooks as for the standard perch these hooks would definitely impact a smaller mouth more.  I like the analogy of a straw with a hole in it being hard to suck through, I find it almost impossible to use once the straw wall has a hole in it.  I can only imagine what it does to a fish when each day is a search for food, these fish haven't adapted in many years and something as small as a hole in the lip would surely do these fish in. 
the interview I heard on this also mentioned catching the fish in a tank not 40 ft down. at 40 ft there is a struggle to reel a perch in, maybe 10 to 20 seconds, making the hole bigger. 
based off of other post you made, it sounds like you released allot of fish, so did i.  but you have a truth to open your eyes to, maybe just maybe, more fish were dying than you thought.

There are numerous studies about catch and release mortality, most of what I read is about striped bass in the northeast and 8% is the number they've come up with.  I've caught a lot of largemouth with holes in their mouth and they seem to have no problem eating a lure.

[Wenger]

all I'm saying is as we learn more we need to adapt our fishing methods.  overfishing is going to kill this wonderful thing we have going in this state, whether we keep fish or release them.  one thing for sure is once a fish is kept...its dead.  releasing fish has an unknown consequence and its a wonderful thought to think that they survived after releasing.  I happen to doubt they survive for long. based off of this, if I catch and keep a dinner, I officially killed 1 or 2 fish, if somebody fishes for fun then let 20 or 30 go. nobody knows for sure what happens to all these fish 1 week down the road. lets say 90 percent make it. thats 2 or 3 dead fish, thus more dead fish. 
also, this article pertains to perch which nobody lets a big perch go. they are the small ones that are released, with small mouths, using the same hooks as for the standard perch these hooks would definitely impact a smaller mouth more.  I like the analogy of a straw with a hole in it being hard to suck through, I find it almost impossible to use once the straw wall has a hole in it.  I can only imagine what it does to a fish when each day is a search for food, these fish haven't adapted in many years and something as small as a hole in the lip would surely do these fish in. 
the interview I heard on this also mentioned catching the fish in a tank not 40 ft down. at 40 ft there is a struggle to reel a perch in, maybe 10 to 20 seconds, making the hole bigger. 
based off of other post you made, it sounds like you released allot of fish, so did i.  but you have a truth to open your eyes to, maybe just maybe, more fish were dying than you thought.

No, the study (which you need to read rather than the article) used shiner perch, a salt water species that is about 6 inches long and are used as a bait fish on the west coast. It has nothing to do with yellow perch.

So let’s apply some logic here. If you catch a few five inch perch or trout then are you saying that is your keep or and it would be wrong for you to release them and try for something to take home eat? What are you going to do with your five five inchers?

Do you understand the proven science behind slot limits? You do know that wounds on fish do heal up right? Bait fish, like perch bullheads and Tom cats have spines which often pierce the same membranes that our hooks do. Like hooks, these wounds are very rarely fatal. If they were we would have dead trout and walleyes floating all over our waters. I did find a dead pike washed up on the shore of peck with a small walleye stuck through its gill plate, which I found interesting.

Please do read the study and look at the “science” these folks as individuals are spewing out. The study is simply a resume scam. Ask yourself this, how did these authors actually collaborate...did all six or whatever it was all travel to CA and work together to catch twenty little sea perch only to not to come to a conclusion? No they are part of study scam that is rife in modern funding based research sadly.

Yup I release a lot of fish and the reason I know most survive is because we catch the same fish multiple times in a season. If one is bleeding or obviously will not make it I will keep it but then I am not against keeping legal fish nor am I against deciding to let fish go.

[mtgrant]

C and R requires a little preparation and training. I did the largest study on this in Maryland at the Metiki Hatchery. We caught 400 trout that had escaped from floating net pens, in 2 days. Browns and Rainbows from 12-26 inches. It was not ice fishing. We focused on barbed and barbless hooks, first. Mortality was the same. What really made the difference was forceps to remove hooks. No matter how good you C&R there seems to be about a 5% mortality. With more abuse from flopping on the ice/gravel, excessive picture taking, fighting fish too long, using a cloth net, dull hooks, etc. mortality significantly jumps.
If the fish swallows the hook, cut he line. It will dissolve in a few days!
What makes me nervous is when you catch perch in deep water and the airbladder is popping out of their mouth. I have been told that they are fine but... C&R is certainly better than death, as long as that is not what causes the death.
If I kill fish to eat, I kill them instantly and cool them. Flopping around on the ice. cooler, or stringer just builds up lactic acid in the meat which alters the flavor.

[slickice]

I agree w/Wenger.  Sounds like very selective science to me.  There are too man variables to convince me that releasing fish are a bad thing unless you know they're in dire straights.  My opinion only.  Merry Christmas fellow "iceheads". 

[Quantoson]

The trouble with the study is they aren't real fishermen.  I have caught numerous fish that have had the lips torn, lures- not one but more, still in their mouth, missing most of the tail, eyeball gone, cuts and scars all over the fish from other predator fish, and the fish are healthy enough to bite the lure or bait and release again.

I am sure if the intention is to just demonstrate you can damage a fish or animal beyond recovery, this can be accomplished to meet the goals of the expected synopsis by choosing a species that is more susceptible and fragile to the encounter. 
If playing a fish too long on a fly rod wears and tears a fish up, maybe we should investigate the fly fishermen.  Some of them guys play a 4 ounce cutthroat or bull trout for 10 minutes or more on a micro line.  Those Trout Unlimited and flyfishing guys, they post vids sometimes playing a fish till it is tired enough to give way to the 2 ounce tipit.  As for us bait dunkers, we use tow cable to reel them fish in quick, find out whats on the hook and release if the size don't make the skillet.

I keep one fish out of maybe twenty.

[DR.SPECKLER]

Ive got a pond that i let kids fish in.kids are rough on fish .all those fish have been released so many times hooked all over the place.and most are still alive to bite over and over.this topic is sort of along the educating fish idea that sooner or later the fish remembers what a hook is.not believing it..

[missoulafish]

And debunked!
I do gotta agree with Q that using an underweight rod does more damage than a hook in the lip ever will.

[Hooked up]

It is not to complicated (most) of the time like any thing that dies in the water at first it sinks then at some point enough gas is going to build up in the body and the corpse will float to the surface. If you are not seeing dead fish floating in the lake catch and release just might work more times then not.

[Wenger]

It's all about HOW you play a fish as well as how you release a fish.

Tarpon are a great example (not to get too far from ice fishing ).  Some guys can land an 80 lber in 20 minutes on a 9 wt while other guys take an hour with a 12 wt. Same when you are jigging for perch and a 8 lb walleye grabs,  most guys will get them in and released just fine.  Then we do have an advantage when ice fishing simply because  the water tends to be colder than in Mexico!

[Mancaveburnett]

Well after reading all these posts, I'm still going to catch and release. This is an ice fishing forum that I'm still on, right? Just remember even vegetarians eat fish, that's saying something. Just imagine if everyone kept every fish they caught, now that may hurt populations.

[NateD]

C and R requires a little preparation and training. I did the largest study on this in Maryland at the Metiki Hatchery. We caught 400 trout that had escaped from floating net pens, in 2 days. Browns and Rainbows from 12-26 inches. It was not ice fishing. We focused on barbed and barbless hooks, first. Mortality was the same. What really made the difference was forceps to remove hooks. No matter how good you C&R there seems to be about a 5% mortality. With more abuse from flopping on the ice/gravel, excessive picture taking, fighting fish too long, using a cloth net, dull hooks, etc. mortality significantly jumps.
If the fish swallows the hook, cut he line. It will dissolve in a few days!
What makes me nervous is when you catch perch in deep water and the airbladder is popping out of their mouth. I have been told that they are fine but... C&R is certainly better than death, as long as that is not what causes the death.
If I kill fish to eat, I kill them instantly and cool them. Flopping around on the ice. cooler, or stringer just builds up lactic acid in the meat which alters the flavor.

You really think a hook will dissolve in a few days?

[chartreusealltheway]

The study that i posted a link to starting this conversation is related to perch only.  The lady who did the study has been an angler her whole life in Canada.
There had never before been a study like this.   New technology allows for better results.  She figures upwards of 30 percent die from a hole in the lip only.   I've read more studies saying the hooks are tougher to dissolve nowadays too. 
I only bring this topic up because as far as i know nobody has studied perch release,  probably because of depth and conditions,  so i thought it was interesting.  Im not trying to change anybody's ways,  just inform people of an interesting study done by another concerned angler (which we too are obviously concerned about different fish).  Hope everyone a good ice fishing season,  i know i am going to with my brand new pistol bit!

[Quantoson]

What is irritating about the research is they used a fish, about 2 inches long and put a hook in it's mouth.  Picture related of the species of fish used. https://imgur.com/a/v1QKvZZ

When they have enough people feeling sorry for the little fishy, you won't be able to catch and release anymore.  You will have to keep what you catch which in turn will require the daily catch and possession limits to be decreased all because of idiots believe this is how we are going to save all the fish species in the world.

Further more, once enough people feel sorry for the little fishy, if there is a stream or body of water that holds endangered fish, ei., bull trout, cutthroat, etc., they will establish that the chance of catching one of the little endangered fishy is high and therefore allowing them to close that body of water.  They will allow specially trained guides $$$$ with permits for angling only by fly fishing.

We have seen the problems associated with poor little endangered fishy.  Eradicating game fish in lakes to protect some fly fishing river runs thru it dream.

[missoulafish]

ya, that study, as stated, had little (if any) scientific results included...

[chartreusealltheway]

The shiner perch is probably different,  but not by the way it eats,  and it grows to 8 inches not 2

[Quantoson]

chartreusealltheway, "grows to 8 inches" very weak comparison.
Macs, Pike, Trout all grow into the 30, 40, 50 inch range.  They are far and in between, so what are you advocating?  Using some other technique like stun bombs, electric shock or what?  Should we carry a fish first aid kit and sew the hook hole up?  Or even use that skin super glue?  Should we set up fish intensive care units on the streams and lakes?  Or would it please you to not use hooks and hope the fishy jump out and into a pale on their own free will?

[chartreusealltheway]

I'm referencing perch only,  they grow to 14 inches around here. most catch and release perch around here are around the 8 inch size that was tested.   I believe the best practice would be to keep the perch instead of letting it go.   Lots of people let them go in hopes of bigger,  sometimes fishing hours more to catch their quota and releasing many 8 to 10 inch perch.

[Tuma]

This study is a joke and it’s nothing like drinking through a straw.  It’s more like sucking air through a straw.  Let’s take the diameter of the fish mouth and make an equal size “hook” hole in proportion on the straw.  You are telling me that equals a 35% loss of suction.  LOL This is just another BS study for some easy money.

[Quantoson]

In my fishing area it is legal to use 2 hooks per line and up to 6 poles.

Because of you chartreusealltheway, I will change to treble hooks made out of rusty #9 wire, and since I can use 2, I will use baling wire to tie those 2 hooks together.  I fall asleep when I fish so this will give the fishy time to struggle and make a hole in it's lips big enough to insert a CD disk.

Then I will take pictures of the pierced lips of these 4" perch before I release them, email them to the "research" team there in Canada and tell them "credit the inspiration to chartreusealltheway here in Montana".  I know after viewing the pictures they will fall to their knees with soft heart sorrow, knowing that their is a person like you, creating monsters like me.

[Tuma]

They even say “It is unclear whether the injuries to the mouth that are caused by the hook have an impact on feeding performance of fishes.”  So where does the 35% decrease come from other than click bait and to make money.  A 35% decrease in suction would cause some impact on feeding.  I plugged this into my computational fluid dynamics in solidworks and don’t see it.  I also love the words they use; may contribute, unclear, likely…

Also what it scientific angling?

It’s just a bunch of BS for a quick pay day.

[Quantoson]

chartreusealltheway needs to start the twitter storm of "#holesinperchlipstoo" movement.

[slickice]

Hope the PC cops aren't reading this but here's a true story.  In 1966 I managed to date the hottest chick in high school.  Smoking hot.  After a few months I released her.  Ran into her in 1979 and what a relief.  She had 3 screaming, unkept kids and weighed at least 175#'s.  I released her and she gained over 65lb's in 13 years.  So much for releasing vs. eating.

[Wenger]

I married her...


NOT REALLY!!!!!!!

[missoulafish]

Slickice just proved c n r makes them bigger!!