Unlocking State Lands

[BourbonSnowCone]

New FWP program. A little off topic but I'm sure plenty of us hunt. Not sure how effective this will be but it's about time someone did something.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/hunterAccess/unlockingStateLands/

[fishinwithbrittanies]

Sounds cool to me.  Access to more country is a good thing!

[Cornbread]

Wow! I bet that p!sses some folks off eventually. Think big ranches/properties owned by folks who love the fact that they individually or as a group of owners land lock a lake or large area of state land they then use as their own private hunting and or fishing area. Along comes this program and some enterprising fellow with an acre or ten makes a small access road through the edge of his property, enrolls in the program and claims the tax credit. *poof* no more private hunting and or fishing area for the richy riches that land locked the place in the first place.

I love it! I hope it plays out like that all over the state wherever this has occurred.

Hopefully this will eventually open up direct access to places like Fennon Slough for ice fishing etc.

[BourbonSnowCone]

I think that it will probably only work onn sections that are bordered by more than 1 property owner. Probably only 1 of them will be eligible. Sections that are locked by a single landowner (lots of them) will probably never see a public hunter. For all intents and purposes, that land belongs to them and for most a $2000 tax credit barely affects their pocketbooks. I think it will be better than what we have but still a long way from ideal.

[icefishnaddct]

I think that it will probably only work onn sections that are bordered by more than 1 property owner. Probably only 1 of them will be eligible. Sections that are locked by a single landowner (lots of them) will probably never see a public hunter. For all intents and purposes, that land belongs to them and for most a $2000 tax credit barely affects their pocketbooks. I think it will be better than what we have but still a long way from ideal.

i agree. i think most landowners are not gonna go for this unless they are really hurting for the cash. the pieces i see opening up more than anything are the "corner crosssing" spots as that will minimize the publics time on private land. it provides an easy access point for the landowner to choose. i do think this is a step in the right direction but still very far from the mark. i do not like that fact that landowners already get a tax break by not paying for taxes on state land that they lease, but lets give them more money on top of that? for PUBLIC land? NO! public land is public land, wether it is land locked or not and we should have access to all of it. this topic really makes my blood boil.

[Cornbread]

I agree with you, the single large land owners might not do jack but the multi-lots like what you have around many of the land locked sloughs and such in the Kalispell area probably will. We have a slough down here on the Clark Fork that is like that. You can get into it but technically it is trespassing to do so. I don't fish it because it is trespassing whether the owner enforces it or not he doesn't want people crossing his land, he just doesn't have time to pursue it apparently. But there are lots of other people with private property along it, some with great access across a corner of their field that is already a field access road. I will probably be asking them this summer if I am willing to fence that access road myself so it is walk in access only if they would be willing to join this program and make it a permanent walk in access to that slough so people can carry in canoes, kayaks, float tubes etc. and fish it. It is worth a try and I will see what they say when I ask them this spring.

[halijigmt]

Most of the eligible land owners who need money already have the land and access leased out to outfitters,hunting groups,ect the F&G will never offer them more money than they are already making.They just need to get their crap together and give the land owners the option of a:access with tax credit/cash like block management b:buy the land for top dollar c:trade for land with public access

[BobberdownMT]

thats cool until someone sees that big buck on the piece of private driving to the state land and decides to pull the trigger and bye bye program haha

[BourbonSnowCone]

I like the idea of swaps for land with public access but it will never be an equal trade. the State will have to sweeten the pot, probably with tax dollars, for it to ever occur. These people already essentially own the land but never have to pay taxes on it.

[born4theoutdoors]

It's a step forward!  It will unlock some land.  Especially when we are losing so much to the rich landowners who just want to lock it up!

[wyogator]

I like the idea of FWP using the right of eminent domain to open up a 3' wide path with a double fence along fencelines to access landlocked public land.  The state could rightfully reinburse the landowner for the narrow path.  Like icefisnaddct said, "it's public land!"

[Baconator]

As much as I like the idea, I think it's just lip service from FW&P to make it appear they are expanding access. FW&P sides with the landowner every time an access issue comes up. I also agree a legal right of way into all state land should be mandatory but it will never happen. With today's GPS units, making corner crossing legal seems like a no brainer to me. As I remember one of the reasons it's illegal is that crossing at a corner somehow interferes with a landowner's ability "to peacefully enjoy the property" or something like that. I studied up on this a few years ago and was blown away at the reasoning used. They were actually trying to even make it illegal to use air travel to access state land, and I think there are stipulations in place just for that. Like you couldn't use a helicopter to jump fences within a certain distance from a dwelling.
 FW&P seems to be working for themselves instead of the hunters in my opinion, it's pretty sad. Hunting here has been going downhill for quite some time now, hopefully things turn around soon.

[BourbonSnowCone]

Seeing how hunting and fishing licenses pay FWP employees, working for hunters and fishermen is working for themselves. We need to remember that it's still a government organization whose employees are handcuffed by bureaucrats. Hunting is going downhill because land that used to be farmed and ranched by Montanans has been bought up by wealthy out-of-staters that have closed off access to millions of acres that was open to hunting 20 years ago. While this program isn't ideal, I don't think it's just lip service by FWP to show they're taking steps towards restoring access.

[Baconator]

I hope you're right, I'd be curious to see how much land it really opens up though. I couldn't agree more on the out-of-state influence, but not all of our problems are caused by that. I asked a warden an access question a few years ago, and he flat out said "If you have to ask, you just need to find another place to hunt". That's not only a lousy answer, it's unacceptable in my book. I also had a conversation with a sheriff about state land because a landowner had posted it. He also told me just to hunt somewhere else until I could prove it was state land. These things shouldn't be happening with our state land. It's our land! With all the money sportsmen contribute it seems we should at the very least have access to our public land.

[BourbonSnowCone]

You'll get no argument from me on most of what you've said. But I spent 5 years in the military and know when someone's giving me a certain answer because they've been told not to ask questions. I've received similar answers from deputies and wardens and 95% of the time that's how they've been directed to answer. I'm also sure there is some laziness in not wanting to find an answer. Every rich landowner in the state sues FWP and the State every time something doesn't go their way. They cost the state so much money that no officials want to ruffle feathers.

[wyogator]

I don't agree that the FWP sides with the landowner every time.  If anything, I think it is the other way around.  I think they have done a lot for access through land acquisitions, block management, fishing access sites and other positive things for hunters and anglers (way more than most other state agencies).  And the landowners hate them for that.  They don't want any land to become public.  They want it all locked up and private like Texas, so they can lease it out to outfitters and public hunting in Montana will end.  They b***h that when the "Commie" FWP gets done, the whole state of Montana will be government owned.  They also hate the FWP for their bison plan.  So what do they do?  They withdraw from Block Management programs to punish hunters, to try to coerce them to take the landowners side in their fight against FWP.  Obviously, the wealthy out-of-staters are the worst, but many multi-generation Eastern Montana ranchers are just as bad.  They seem to dislike all hunters who are not family, friends or locals.  I know that I am generalizing here.  Not all landowners are like this.  But, a lot of them are, if not most and they vote.

[stripernut]

Interesting topic... I am from out of state (don't worry I don't have the money for gas to drive out your way, let alone buy land LOL) and we don't have many land locked spots (some) in MA. But reading your posts I think (and I know it would never happen) the way to go after it would be to push through a bill that taxed the land owner for the land they have locked up, unless they give access... If they are denying access, it is the same as owning it... Do that and you will have access the next day to most of the locked up land.
If you control something, have the ability to use it and keep other rightful uses from being able to use it, then how is that not owning it? Oh, well they currently don't have to pay taxes on it...
Get fish and game / your State Reps to flip this around, not give tax credit, but to get taxes... I would make it a discounted amount, like a user fee and some may be willing to pay to lock up the land, but at least that way they are not getting a free ride on the public and if you can get the fees directed to fish and game all the better!
Maybe this East Coaster should not stick his nose into a Western land rights issue, but you never know...
Best of luck!

[BourbonSnowCone]

That seems like a pretty good idea. Thanks for sticking your nose in 

[wyogator]

Stripernut, you are not the kind of out-of-stater we are talking about.  It's the Ted turners and Huey Lewis' who buy thousands of acres of land, posts no trespassing signs and block public land and water (which we are guaranteed access through our stream access law) or have less money, but complain and try to change things to the ways they are back home.  You are welcome to come to Montana, as long as you don't buy 1500 acres of land and block access, so you can have your own private resort.

[stripernut]

I will have to try and visit some time, I am sometime out "that way" to visit my older son. He is a snow board instructor and fly fishing guide in CO.

[fishin7]

I agree with you guys on most of your opinions but in most of these cases the land that was bought was not hunt-able by us (the public) in the first place.  It was either outfitted or only hunted by the Ranch owner and friends.  Most of these "rich" out of stators buy these ranches for the sole purpose of hunting, so they go to all extent to enhance the property for wildlife.  In turn this provides a safe haven for say elk and deer to increase in herd size and reach old age.  I hunt ALOT, archery and rifle and do all of my hunting on public land and I can tell you this, most of my best spots are located right beside some of these "rich" out of stators properties!  If I can't hunt the land in the first place what difference does it make who owns it?  More than likely if a "rich" out of stator owns it they are less concerned about cattle or having a outfitters lease on it, and are more concerned about doing what is best to enhance the wildlife which in turn benefits the surrounding areas.  Sure it might get annoying having to sit there and watch that 380 bull across the fence but while he is over there, Ill shoot the 330 bull that wondered across the fence!   Look at Yellowstone Park for example, before the nut jobs introduced the wolves,  it provided a safe haven for the elk, if my memory serves me correctly some of the best elk hunting in the world use to be all along the parks boundaries!  Now if the government starts selling our public land to these "rich" out of stators then that's another story.

Oh yeah and as far as the original topic, I agree it would be a step in the right direction for access to these land locked public parcels!

[jt snipe]

here r my thoughts on state land. I think that the public should have the right to access all state land, and if the land owner who has control of that lease doesn't want the public to be in there, then raise his lease rate to the point it is no longer profitable for him to continue leasing that ground. I feel the same way about blm ground if you want the 100 yr lease you will allow public access to that federal property.  Bottom line I, you, and every Montana tax payer owns as much of that property as the person with the lease on that ground.  I guarantee someone will be happy to take that lease over and allow public access, because bottom line there is profit to be made off state land and blm land.

[SLIMMETT]

Interesting topic.  WYOGATOR, I am a landowner in North Central Montana, I could be negatively impacted by free roaming bison.  Spent two days last fall in Lewistown listening to a Montana FWP discussion on the proposal.  This is something Governor Bullock wants to get done, I oppose the proposal. 
Watch what you say when you generalize.  ALL landowners deal with a whole host of issues when it comes to recreation and access.  Here are a few examples: noxious weeds spread by vehicles, blatant trespass, dogs chasing cattle by people recreating (this happens), cut fences, litter, etc.  Most sportsmen are very good and respectful but some unfortunately are not.
Many in-state ranch owners lease their property to outfitters or private hunters as a source of income, for some it is the difference between keeping their place another year and not having to drive to town and work a second job. Sometimes its good to walk a mile in someone else's shoes 

[fishin7]

Interesting topic.  WYOGATOR, I am a landowner in North Central Montana, I could be negatively impacted by free roaming bison.  Spent two days last fall in Lewistown listening to a Montana FWP discussion on the proposal.  This is something Governor Bullock wants to get done, I oppose the proposal. 
Watch what you say when you generalize.  ALL landowners deal with a whole host of issues when it comes to recreation and access.  Here are a few examples: noxious weeds spread by vehicles, blatant trespass, dogs chasing cattle by people recreating (this happens), cut fences, litter, etc.  Most sportsmen are very good and respectful but some unfortunately are not.
Many in-state ranch owners lease their property to outfitters or private hunters as a source of income, for some it is the difference between keeping their place another year and not having to drive to town and work a second job. Sometimes its good to walk a mile in someone else's shoes

Well put. 

[vicster]

hmm, first one didn't work apparently.

anyhoo, sounds like a good program and a step in the right direction.

In my opinion we need to revoke the current corner crossing law.  There is a ton of our PUBLIC land locked up in public private checkerboards.  With current gps and maping technologies we are able to precisely locate corners and cross from public to public land.  The argument that this somehow violates some property owners rights is just a lame attempt to justify continuing to use PUBLIC land as there own.  The only ones who's rights are currently being violated by the system is place is the general public, who is being denied legal access to OUR land (that's right, it's owned by all of us!).  There was a bill dealing with this last year that didn't pass, but is a bandwagon we should all jump on.  If you are a member of a sportsmans group willing to champion this cause please post here (where are you RMEF....) and we can try to get some more momentum behind this thing.

[icefishnaddct]

In my opinion we need to revoke the current corner crossing law.  There is a ton of our PUBLIC land locked up in public private checkerboards.  With current gps and maping technologies we are able to precisely locate corners and cross from public to public land. 

I AGREE!!! i would rather have seen the corner crossing law pass than this program. it benefits both the public and the landowner. landowners won't have to deal provding an access site through their land and some of the other issues that WILL arise from crossing private land to access the state pieces. maybe we should start our own sportsmans group dedicated to gaining public access to all public lands. somebody has to do something. sitting here complaining is going to get nothing fixed. i'm as guilty as the next guy for not acting................ i think it is time to take a stand.

[wyogator]

I understand your point SLIMMETT.  I have not walked a mile in your shoes, but know several who have.  I know a few landowners in North East Central Montana.  They share the same views as you.  As I said, I was generalizing, not referring to all landowners, but the few bad apples.  I respect private property rights and never trespass.  I always hunt public land, unless I am invited to hunt private property.  I don't even feel comfortable asking anymore.  A few years ago I was granted permission from a "landowner" to hunt his ranch.  Thank God I didn't have time to hunt it, because he didn't even own the land.  He leased it from someone else!  I completely understand your issues with noxious weeds, broken fences, littering...etc.  It is your land, do as you see fit. I completely understand your issue with the bison.  I just don't think certain landowners should punish hunters for what the FWP is doing.  We don't have a dog in that fight.  I also agree that landowners have the right to post their land and do as they see fit, including outfitting for extra money.  My problem is when landowners intentionally block access to public land, and to rub salt in the wound, use that blocked public land for their private outfitter operations.  Or, when people like James Cox Kennedy, or Huey Lewis try to block legal stream access.  I apologize for the confusion.  That post was not directed at all landowners.

[Baconator]

  My problem is when landowners intentionally block access to public land, and to rub salt in the wound, use that blocked public land for their private outfitter operations.  Or, when people like James Cox Kennedy, or Huey Lewis try to block legal stream access.

That's what I was getting at too in my earlier post. That incident I mentioned in the breaks wasn't even questionable, a landowner simply locked a BLM gate and painted the posts orange. It was flat out wrong.
 Lets not sugar coat it either, just like any other walk of life, there are good ranchers and bad ranchers. It used to be gaining access to hunt was possible with some footwork and good manners, not so anymore. I'll go out on a limb here and say the vast majority of ranchers have no problem "generalizing" when it comes to hunters, it should be expected that hunters will have some generalizations when it comes to ranchers as well. Go around and ask for hunting permission and you hear the same old stories about every time. Complaints about leaving gates open, off road driving, trespassing, etc. I don't question the validity of the complaints, just the frequency and severity. Some ranchers will have you believe that about every hunter is a slob. That's far from the truth and we all know it. I hunt almost all public land, and it's very rarely I've ever seen the things they claim to happen every time they let someone hunt. I also strongly believe in landowner rights, so they make the call and that's the way it is.
 I do have a problem with FW&P's access laws that are in place "just in case" someone decides to break the law. Corner crossing if done correctly would hurt nobody, but they have that law in place because landowners "think" the public will trespass. You're trespassing or you're not, and with today's GPS units it's easy to prove either way.  I could go on forever on this topic, but in the end I really believe hunting as we knew it will never be back. I've been hunting for about 35 years and this is easily the lowest point I've seen. I feel sorry for the future hunters mostly, only a select few will get to hunt and if hunter participation drops too far it will be gone for everyone. I hope I'm wrong, but I truly believe lack of access is what will be the end of hunting. Thank God we'll always have fishing at least!

[halijigmt]

I have dealt with locked and posted state lands for years,and the F&G was never interested in figuring out who did it.The Bison idea is idiotic,I have lived next to them and a normal fence wont hold them,they go wherever they want when they want and the state is never going to build the fences needed to hold them.If I was a rancher up there I wouldn't want them either but their little program of punishing hunters(by restricting access) is just as idiotic,if you want people on your side don't be an ass.I had a rancher who used to let me hunt elk on his place over by Avon tell me no when I asked last year because he heard the F&G was thinking about putting bison in Spotted Dog and their(he and the surrounding land owners) solution to the problem was not to let anyone hunt until the F&G backed off the idea.....Genius.Ill never ask him again and if the bison transplant to Spotted dog comes up to a public vote he didn't win any votes!Trying to use hunters as pawns against the state is probably the worst idea these landowners ever came up with.

[BourbonSnowCone]

Democratic lawmakers tried to pass House Bill 235 a year ago and it got shut down by the Montana House majority Republicans. Instead the Republicans added money to the Block Management Program and we all know what stellar places those are to hunt after they've been enrolled for more than a year. Money down the drain. Maybe we could have a chat with our "sportsman-friendly" Republican representatives. Let them know they can play their partisanship games all they want until they do it at the expense of Montana sportsmen and women.