Lake Manitou.Near Rochester,Fulton County.

[abishop]

Good report. It is good to know someone like yourself has addressed the issue. Someone out there must know someone who lives on these lakes. We as fishermen need to campain to these few land owners on the lake and sway them to come to our side. WE ALL MEED TO FIGHT THIS THING TO HAVE ANY RESULTS.

[wax_worm]

Sorry, but you don't have a clue. I spent allot of time back in 2002. I argued and explained the fishermans case with the DNR and got no where....Below I will post some of the emails I got from the DNR investigator and Biologist. To post all of them would be a long list, so i will not post all of them....I also contacted the bait shop on HWY10 west of Bass lake I believe in Jan 2002, made up a petition and put it on their door. At least I tried!

LMAO!!  Sending a few emails and posting a petition on the door of a lone bait shop is not organizing an opposition.  Did you contact any of the BASS or FLW clubs in the area to leverage their resources and get their opinions of the fisheries?  Did you research any fish surveys from either lake to show that the fish population is suffering due to weed kills?  Does the DNR agree the fish are suffering in these lakes due to the weed kills?  Do you have proof weed kills are being done without a permit?  Without, any facts or backing for your position you are like the crying baby in a restruant......annoyin g....

I can see why you get no where.  Reading your emails, you provide few, if any, facts; only your observations (which are not fact) and then you follow that up with bad mouthing the lake residents because some are politicians, have expensive boats, can afford to live on the lake, and hate fishermen.  I have fished there several times and never had a single issue with the lake residents or boaters.  Is your method getting you anywhere?  All the responses to your emails are informative, provide facts, explain the process and why the are doing it, and provide links to documents, etc.  You call all that 'double talk' because you did not get your way or don't understand the process.  I think you better reread muskymans posts about how the weed kills are granted, applied and by who, and what they specifically target.  They are not killing the native weeds.  The invasive weeds are killing and overrunning the native weeds.  You have to treat the invasive weeds to allow the native weeds to get a foothold again.  It is a proven process, being used by aquatic biologists in many states, but you refuse to see how it works. 

[musky8it]

LMAO!!  Sending a few emails and posting a petition on the door of a lone bait shop is not organizing an opposition.  ..........

I can see why you get no where.  Reading your emails, you provide few, if any, facts; only your observations (which are not fact) and then you follow that up with bad mouthing the lake residents because some are politicians, have expensive boats, can afford to live on the lake, and hate fishermen. ..........

waxworm....I sent more than a few emails, at least 30-40 or more. To allot of DNR officials, and got only two replies which was a DNR investigator and Biologist. The bait shop owner had information about a week kill in either 1999 or 2000. I sent to the DNR investigator. Who said that the DNR did not give out any permits for weed kill at Bass lake that yr. I did way more than I posted here. What I posted is only a small percent of what I tried. Reporting illegal activity is part of it, not just contacting fishing groups. What I did was report. No I never contacted any fishing groups, I didn't know any. So please get off my back, you have no idea how much energy and time I spent. All Hissong and the DNR did was run me in circles. Wonder why???

And to reply to your 2nd paragraph. All but one of the emails I posted on this thread, are emails I received, not emails I sent. They are emails I received from the DNR Investigator, DNR Biologist, and Mrs. Hissong.  So I don't see how you can say "Reading your emails, you provide few, if any, facts. I only posted one of my emails here, the rest are emails sent to me from so called experts!

[musky8it]

They are not killing the native weeds.  The invasive weeds are killing and overrunning the native weeds.  

This is not what happened to all the cabbage beds(native weeds) at Max.. Invasive weeds did not overtake the cabbage beds. The chemical treatments killed all the cabbage beds at Max. I fished there back in the 70's and there used to be a big one just left of the ramp, its not there anymore....If you talk to Mrs Hissong, she'll tell you they started treating Max because of to much nutrients in the water. She states that very clearly in her email.

Chemical treatment at Maxinkuckee killed all the native weeds, and that is a fact! I don't know what Bass lake had back in the 70-80's. I never fished there back then. But I know what Max had back in the 70-80's. And its not there anymore. And invasive weeds did not rid Max. of its native vegetation, the lake owners did.

[musky8it]

Good report. It is good to know someone like yourself has addressed the issue. Someone out there must know someone who lives on these lakes. We as fishermen need to campain to these few land owners on the lake and sway them to come to our side. WE ALL MEED TO FIGHT THIS THING TO HAVE ANY RESULTS.

I don't know about Bass lake owners. But you will never sway Max. lake owners to our side. Max. lake owners and that town,in general, do not like outsiders on THEIR so called lake!!!  They have made allot of effort to run/keep bait shops out of town(that's a fact I talked to one yrs back). They also stopped the land owner just across from the ramp from turning a field into a big "PAY" parking lot for boaters(that's a fact my brother talked to them). As I stated before, if you got the money and know the right people. You can get away with what the Maxinkuckee Lake Association has done.

[abishop]

Like the old saying goes, "money talks and -------- walks." aint it true. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

[wax_worm]

waxworm....I sent more than a few emails, at least 30-40 or more. To allot of DNR officials, and got only two replies which was a DNR investigator and Biologist. The bait shop owner had information about a week kill in either 1999 or 2000. I sent to the DNR investigator. Who said that the DNR did not give out any permits for weed kill at Bass lake that yr. 

I appluad your effort of reporting an unpermitted weed kill to the DNR investigator.  I have to assume there was not enough or no evidence they could act on if nothing was done.

I did way more than I posted here. What I posted is only a small percent of what I tried. Reporting illegal activity is part of it, not just contacting fishing groups. What I did was report. No I never contacted any fishing groups, I didn't know any. So please get off my back, you have no idea how much energy and time I spent. All Hissong and the DNR did was run me in circles. Wonder why???

  Too bad you feel you wasted your time.  I am not 'on your back' for your efforts, but your generalizations that all lake property owners are a$$holes, the DNR will do whatever pads their pockets with money instead of what is legal and good for our lakes, and that you are right and those with degrees in water managment, natural resources, and licensed in weed erradication and management are wrong!!

And to reply to your 2nd paragraph. All but one of the emails I posted on this thread, are emails I received, not emails I sent. They are emails I received from the DNR Investigator, DNR Biologist, and Mrs. Hissong.  So I don't see how you can say "Reading your emails, you provide few, if any, facts. I only posted one of my emails here, the rest are emails sent to me from so called experts!

My comment was to the only email you posted on here.  Why would the lake association respond to an antogonistic email with no facts to support your points?

This is not what happened to all the cabbage beds(native weeds) at Max.. Invasive weeds did not overtake the cabbage beds. The chemical treatments killed all the cabbage beds at Max.

That is odd, Muskyman who is licensed and contracts and kills weeds for a living, says there is no chemical designed to kill real cabbage, yet you are sure that is what killed them!

I fished there back in the 70's and there used to be a big one just left of the ramp, its not there anymore....If you talk to Mrs Hissong, she'll tell you they started treating Max because of to much nutrients in the water. She states that very clearly in her email.

  It is 2008, you are talking about 30-40 years since the 70's.  Lakes change with time.  You don't treat a lake for nutrients in the water by dumping chemicals in it.  You prevent field runoff, septic tank runoff, farm manure, yard fertilizer, etc from entering the lake, by putting in wetlands, hooking resdients up to a municipal sewer, educating lake residents to use yard fertilizer sparingly, etc.  Nomally lakes that have too many nutrients are off color and not clear as algae loves the nutients and thrives, clouding the water.  I think you will agree, maxi is one of the clearest lakes around.  It is possible the reduction of nutrients caused your cabbage bed to die, but I doubt it.  Clearer water usually allows weeds to survive and grow deeper cause of the light penetration is better.

Chemical treatment at Maxinkuckee killed all the native weeds, and that is a fact!  But I know what Max had back in the 70-80's. And its not there anymore. And invasive weeds did not rid Max. of its native vegetation, the lake owners did. 

  Fact is the weeds in Max are not the same as they were 30-40 years ago.  I think you will find this in about any lake you look at.  It is not a fact that chemical treatment and the lake owners killed the native weeds.  You have no supporting evidence that backs up your statements and accusations.  You are making an assumption that becuase they have recieved permits to kill invasive weeds (which are granted to many lake association to help control milfoil and other invasives) and are trying to reduce nutrients in the lake, they are to blame for the weed changes.  The real question is the fish poplation declining in Maxi?  If not, what is the issue?

[abishop]

Good points. I dont fish Max as much as I would like. It is very hard with all the structure. I did buy a gps and after ice out I will be plotting in some wavepoints. However, I do believe that the fishing hasnt been affected by the weed removal. They are just harder to find. Same thing on Bass. They are still there it just takes a lot of looking. Whatever you catch on Maxi is usually a large fish. They have some of the biggest fish of all species that are there.

[Zoojunkie782]

Doesn't look like fishing's doing too bad there-

http://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=80474.0

Its good you are concerned Musky8it, but you need to get facts straight before exploding like this. Throwing out accusations that aren't fact-based is pretty low. Like was said before, go to meetings conducted prior to permit submittals- they are usually conducted by implementers like JFNew or applicators AND you don't have to be part of the lake association to have a say in plant treatment. Its true that property owners are the majority at meetings, but thats because no fisherman show up. I went to a meeting at Sylvan last fall and I think I was the only fisherman- the only discussion that went on was nit-picking over people's beaches. More fisherman = more resistance to treat. Remember, its a public lake, and everyone has a say- but they need to be seen AND heard. Saying that the DNR is fueled by money is not a way to represent your opinion or opinions of us fellow fisherman.

[Edge]

Good Discussion....for the most part.

The bottom line is go to these meetings and voice your opinion.  There are public meetings every fall regarding plant treatments at various lakes.  If there is no public meeting at your lake, give the district biologist a call and let them know how you feel.

I believe the biologists are trying to do what's best for the lakes.  However there are a lot of people who want to remove every weed they can, and unfortunately they're very vocal.

It's true most of these applications are for the treatment of exotics, but if you've seen the results of a sonar or any other aggressive treatment you know that the damage to natives like coontail can be high.   And in some cases the relief of milfoil is only temporary. 
 
We need to speak up and force a more conservative approach.  Speak UP!

 

 

[abishop]

We need to know when these meetings are so we the fishermen can voice our opinions. Does anyone know how to find out when and where?

[Edge]

Good Question!  The district biologists would know.  I think the majority if not all of them take place in the fall. 

You would think the DNR would advertise them somehow, maybe the website.

[Retired-UAW]

Good Question!  The district biologists would know. 

[email protected] try this guy.I`ve had Good luck requesting info for a small lake the DNR manages. He gave me  19 pages of infomation with more info than a normal fisherman would need to fish this small lake. Maybe he can help resovle this conflict or lack of infomation? Each part of the state has different people for certain areas. Maybe this guy? Maybe someone else. Info at DNR site for each area.

[musky8it]

Fact is the weeds in Max are not the same as they were 30-40 years ago.  I think you will find this in about any lake you look at.  It is not a fact that chemical treatment and the lake owners killed the native weeds. ......

So you are wanting me to believe that native cabbage weed beds just simply disappeared on their own since the 80's. I am sorry but I can not believe that. I truly believe that legal or illegal chemical treatments have killed off most or all of the native weeds. That is my opinion, and I feel its the opinion of many others.

Its to late to bring them back now. I very well doubt you will get the DNR to transplant the cabbage weeds back into Max.. Even if the DNR wanted to transplant Cabbage back into Max.. They would need to OK from the lake association to do that and they are not going to give the ok. Why do I say they would need the Lake Association approval. Because the Lake Association owns/controls/ or influences the politicians/Dnr who oversee that lake. No matter if you want to agree with that or not, I and many others feel the same way. Say for example you got together 1,000 fisherman to go up against Max's lake association. Do you really think they would win out? I don't think so. Nowdays to win in politics you need money and influence. And no doubt the Max. Lake Association has way more than the fisherman will ever have.

The real question is the fish population declining in Maxi?  If not, what is the issue?

Yes, that is the story. Fish needs weeds for protection of their young. And since there is very little weeds, the population decreases thru time.


It is sad that the native weeds, on Max. has been depleted. In my opinion, a few Snobs who only want to run their High Dollar boats in a lake free of weeds are to blame. As I stated, I do have solid verbal facts on how the Lake Association and town of Culver have stopped the addition of a Parking lot so more out-of-town fisherman could be on the lake. And they also have pushed out bait shop owners, I talked to a shop owner yrs back who stated that. Those are facts I personally can vouch for.

As for me, I don't have any solid evidence or proof. But I personally feel thru the killing of weed with permits, or illegal treating weeds by lake owner. That is how the native weeds have been destroyed. You have to ask yourself, can you proof that is incorrect?

[high_flags]

Great discussion,  I think we all agree that the Lakes have changed . I hope the weed beds return someday. My option is that the fishing was much better with the weeds. How do we get the plants back???  re plant them???

[musky8it]

Great discussion,  I think we all agree that the Lakes have changed . I hope the weed beds return someday. My option is that the fishing was much better with the weeds. How do we get the plants back???  re plant them???

Thats is a good question. But in my opinion, in my lifetime, my grandkids lifetime, and their kid's lifetime. You will never see the vegataion we had 20 or 30 yrs ago. Why? We all know the answer to that.

[musky8it]

Back to Manitou. I like how they have a large section blocked off against motor travel(gas & electric). And I am hopeful that lake is returned to its natural state. It would be nice if Max. had the same thing in a few key areas. But again, we all know that will never happen and we all know why. Just 2 words explains why, Lake Association.

[abishop]

mon ey

[wax_worm]

So you are wanting me to believe that native cabbage weed beds just simply disappeared on their own since the 80's. I am sorry but I can not believe that. I truly believe that legal or illegal chemical treatments have killed off most or all of the native weeds. That is my opinion, and I feel its the opinion of many others.

You may be right here about the illegal treatments.  Someone may have illegally killed the weeds.  What did they use?  According to Muskyman who works with weed killers, there are no weed killers that target cabbage.  If it did happen, it is sad, but to blame the DNR, politicians and lake association for the illegal act of one or two people is ridiculous.  Unless someone catches them, nothing can and will be done.  What you are saying is like holding you accountable for someone in your neighborhood running a meth lab in his basement!!!

Its to late to bring them back now. I very well doubt you will get the DNR to transplant the cabbage weeds back into Max.. Even if the DNR wanted to transplant Cabbage back into Max.. They would need to OK from the lake association to do that and they are not going to give the OK. Why do I say they would need the Lake Association approval. Because the Lake Association owns/controls/ or influences the politicians/Dnr who oversee that lake. No matter if you want to agree with that or not, I and many others feel the same way.

 

I don't know how they would get the weeds back in there, but if the DNR deems it necessary to put weeds in, the lake association is not going to stop it.  The state owns that lake, not the lake association.  You sure have one h*ll of a conspiracy theory that the lake property owners, the DNR, and all politicians are corrupt and do whatever someone with money wants to keep weeds out of lake Maxi!!

Say for example you got together 1,000 fisherman to go up against Max's lake association. Do you really think they would win out? I don't think so. Nowdays to win in politics you need money and influence. And no doubt the Max. Lake Association has way more than the fisherman will ever have.

If you can get 1000 fishermen, back them with some FACTUAL information, attend a meeting and not be antagonistic toward the lake association, you would have a great chance of getting your points presented and listened too.  Once again, you are making this a battle between the fishermen vs. the lake association and that is why you are getting no where.  The lake association and the fishermen should be working together to make Maxi a better lake.  There is a compromise in there somewhere, but you will never get there because you are alienating the lake association instead of working with them.  Weeds in 8 fow and greater should not impact boating, skiing or any other recreational boat activity.  Weeds choking the shallows, especially invasive, need some control.

I suggest you locate the Indiana BASS federation nation chapters and the FLW TBF chapters that fish Maxi and contact the president of each chapter to enlist their help.  They can leverage the State BASS and FLW chapters if they need to and go all the way to the national headquarters if need be.  BASS has has an instrumental part in a lot of legislation dealing with our waterways around the country.  You will have to support your theory with some proof before they will get on board with you, but if you can enlist their support you will be better off than without it.  Here are the websites for the IN BASS and FLW TBF chapters.

Indiana TBF contact - Doug Bradley - http://tbf.flwoutdoors.com/email.cfm?id=57 
Indiana TBF website - http://www.indianabass.com/index.html

BASS federation nation website - http://www.ibfn.us/index.html

Yes, that is the story. Fish needs weeds for protection of their young. And since there is very little weeds, the population decreases thru time.

True, fish fry need cover.  That does not have to be cabbage weeds.  They can take cover in milfoil, docks, under boats, near rocks, etc.  Part of the FACTS you need to provide to the DNR is that the fish population is suffering due to lack of cover.  If the fish surveys do not support your theory, then they must be doing OK.  Check the surveys (if any) from the 80's (when you say there were weeds) through the present and see if there are negative trends in several species.  These surveys are available from the biologist in charge of lake maxi.

It is sad that the native weeds, on Max. has been depleted. In my opinion, a few Snobs who only want to run their High Dollar boats in a lake free of weeds are to blame. As I stated, I do have solid verbal facts on how the Lake Association and town of Culver have stopped the addition of a Parking lot so more out-of-town fisherman could be on the lake. And they also have pushed out bait shop owners, I talked to a shop owner yrs back who stated that. Those are facts I personally can vouch for.

What you describe is hearsay, not facts.  Facts are backed by visual evidence and documentation.  Unless you have that, you have an opinion and the opinion of others and not facts.  Not denying they ran the bait store out of town, but hearsay is not enough to convince me.  The DNR messed up the parking at Maxi.  They should have purchased parking land long before maxi became the high dollar property it is today.  Now it is too late and someone will always be wiling to pay more than the DNR will for any land that becomes available.  But that is how real estate works.  Highest bidder gets the land.  Only a donation to the DNR will allow better parking at Maxi.  It is funny you say the town and lake assoc. hate fishermen.  When I fished BASS years ago we had our Top 8 tournament for the northern region there.  The town of Culver, the marina at Maxi and everyone I encountered were happy we were there.  They even created bags of coupons for use in Culver and goodies for every fishermen and there were over 100 boats there with 2 people in each boat.  The marina opened its doors late Friday and early in the mornings for our meeting place, allowed us to park on the hill behind it and had coffee and doughnuts for everyone.  Lots of residents even showed up for the weigh in and were very nice.  I have been there several other times fishing and never had an issue even when pitching and casting around their docks and boats.  I even spent 15 minutes showing a resident what I was using, how to rig it and where to cast it after he saw me catch 3 nice bass right in front of his place.  Obviously our experiences on Maxi are drastically different.  Wonder why that is?

As for me, I don't have any solid evidence or proof. But I personally feel thru the killing of weed with permits, or illegal treating weeds by lake owner. That is how the native weeds have been destroyed. You have to ask yourself, can you proof that is incorrect?

I don't have evidence that someone did not kill the cabbage weeds, just as you don't have evidence that they did.  Lakes are very complicated Eco systems and there are likely 100's of reasons the lake has changed since the 70's.  I defer to those educated in lake management and biologists for the reasons.  My point is, if you want to stop the weed killing or weed control, you have to get organized and have evidence that is damaging the lake by reducing the fish populations etc.  Without that, you will get no where, cause those you are opposing have the permits and evidence they are improving and not harming the lake from their standpoint. 

Good luck if you take this challenge on.

[abishop]

I will be at the next lake associations meeting if someone posts when and where it will be.

[AlgaeKilla]

FYI good event to learn some facts;
Indiana Lakes Management Society, Inc.
March 28th & 29th, 2008:  Annual ILMS Conference. Ramada Inn, Warsaw, IN.

[musky8it]

I don't have evidence that someone did not kill the cabbage weeds, just as you don't have evidence that they did.  Lakes are very complicated Eco systems and there are likely 100's of reasons the lake has changed since the 70's

Not to many yrs back, I think it might have been 2002. I was fishing on Max in the summer. I ran ac cross a weed patch approx 20ft dia. just straight out from the landing about 150- yds in shallow water. I marked it on my GPS, the weeds looked like wilted lettuce then. A month later I went back and they had all died out. I contacted the DNR and ask them if any permits where giving out for this area and they said no. The weeds where gone, so I had no proof they had even been there. So I knew better than to file a complaint.

So I know for a fact someone is killing weeds at Max. illegally. I imagine at night so no one can see them. I suppose they find them in the day, mark them on a GPS. Then at night dump chemicals on the area or what ever to kill the weeds.

I still have the GPS coordinates on my GPS, I have no idea if the weeds came back up. I know they was not there this winter when I went to that GPS spot.

I see no way to stop this at all!!!! I am sorry if all my post on this thread are upsetting. But the things I have seen done to our Ind. lakes illegally is upsetting to me. Sorry if I vented on the subject. If you don't believe it, talk to the bait shop owner on HWY10 west of Bass lake. He'll tell you about Bass lake weed kills. They go fishing in the summer and the weeds are there on the flats, then they wilt and die.

I have been so discussed with Max, I have not fished it for a few yrs. This winter has been the first I have fished it in 3-4 yrs. And from what I have seen with my underwater camera, the weeds are not there. Oh ya, you have the scraggly grass on the floor, that's about it.

[musky8it]

My brother talked to the land owner(face to face), and the owner told my brother that the Lake association/town block his efforts to make his field a parking lot. I am sorry, but you can defend the Lake Association all you want, maybe you are one of them I have no idea. If you are, then you are lucky to be on one of Indiana's great lakes.

It is not fiction, its a fact that the lake association do their best to restrict the flow of non residents on Max. and weed growth. I am going to do my best to stop discussing or arguing this subject anymore, since you always take the lake Associations side on this fisherman's site. I have no hard feellings and I am sorry if I upset you. But you can ask any fisherman who fishes Max., and I bet 90% will feel like I do that someone has killed off the native weeds. And it sure hasn't been the fishermen.

[musky8it]

mon ey

That is what its all about bishop. Whether people want to admit it or not. Money talks to the HIGH end DNR officials and politicians( I am not talking about the local DNR officers either, I think they are with us). And if any lake association has enough money, they will get what they want period! And anyone who believes differant is living in a fairytale land. I know I said I was done, but I didn't see this post and had to reply to it.

[wax_worm]

My brother talked to the land owner(face to face), and the owner told my brother that the Lake association/town block his efforts to make his field a parking lot. I am sorry, but you can defend the Lake Association all you want, maybe you are one of them I have no idea. If you are, then you are lucky to be on one of Indiana's great lakes.

It is not fiction, its a fact that the lake association do their best to restrict the flow of non residents on Max. and weed growth. I am going to do my best to stop discussing or arguing this subject anymore, since you always take the lake Associations side on this fisherman's site. I have no hard feellings and I am sorry if I upset you. But you can ask any fisherman who fishes Max., and I bet 90% will feel like I do that someone has killed off the native weeds. And it sure hasn't been the fishermen.

I live 60 miles from Max, so I am not a lake propery owner on Max.  I am on your side on this, believe it or not.  Someone or something has killed the native weeds.  I don't know what killed them, and you are adament that people did it illegally.  All I am trying to say is without proof, you have no chance of getting anywhere.  And if you do get proof, try to enlist the help of BASS and other fishing organizations to help you make and back your point.

As for the land owner wanting to use his land for parking and being stopped by the town from doing so, what are their legal reasons for stopping it? It is his property, so they must have some legal reason to prevent him from doing it.  Likely his property is not zoned to be used as parking and that is why they are able to stop it.  If he wants to use his land for parking he should sell it the DNR and allow them to fight the town the culver to get it rezoned for parking.  The DNR dropped the ball years ago, by not buying land for parking when it was cheap and before Max became a high dollar area.  As with alot of things, it is hard to fix the mess years after it was created.

By the way, you did not upset me.  I am just providing a different perspective and trying to help you be successful if you decide to take them on again.  Good luck.

[AlgaeKilla]

Okay, here are some facts for you. Some species of aquatic vegetation die during the summer months. That's there life cycle. They begin growing in  late fall or early spring and when the water temps reach 80 degrees they die. Curlyleaf pond weed is one of them. It can form expansive bed in up to 18" of water if clarity is adequate.

Some guys refer to this "weed" as cabbage. It is however not cabbage nor is it native. It is an invasive species that can out compete true cabbage. See my earlier post for the name of true cabbage. This plant and others are common in Indiana and do in fact die on their own during summer months.
This coupled with the fact that herbicides do not work at night lead me to believe you are indeed wrong about illegal "weed kills". In order for a herbicide to be taken up by the plant the plant must be photosynthesising. This only occurs when sunlight is present. Contact killers as they are called in the industry either don't stay in the water column long enough or are diluted down so much be morning that the are not effective at even wounding the target plant.
My third point to disprove your accusations is as follows. Do you really think those rich a$$ people that live on Maxi who probably don't even mow their own yard would go to dirty farm store and purchase hundreds of dollars of herbicide, put said herbicide in there fancy a$$ boat and apply it to a weed bed. He!! no if they want the weeds in front of their fancy house gone they pick up a phone book and call a professional. There are at least a few guys in the area that I personally know that make a living spraying shorelines on our public lakes. These weed treatments are exempt from the permit mandates because they are done from shore to 25' out. These licensed professionals are indeed fisherman and would not do anything to negatively impact the fishery. Plus they all know if they did they would lose their license and therefore their livelihood.
You throw the word "fact" around quite loosely, but the fact of the matter is if you want to make a difference you need to educate yourself about what you are talking about. Did you look into any of the information Dr. White or I have shared with you. I'm not taking the side of the rich I'm only trying to help you understand (like Waxworm) that your "personal facts" and  bad attitude are a poor representation of your fellow fisherman. Me included.

[coondog59]

This happens to be a very infomative, and stimulating discussion,  Muskyman you sound very knowledgable, as you should be, being this is your chosen livelyhood. I not an expert ,or even remotely qaulified to refute any statements that have been presented here, one way or another. But it struck me as a little fishy,(pardon the pun), that you would post a very alarming picture of a weed infested lake in Florida, when in fact we have a much different, growing cycle, climate, and nutrient base, here in northern Indiana. Not knowing the excact conditions in which these invasive weeds need to grow and proliferate, leaves me at a  disadvantage.Surely you might understand where some skepticism may creep into my mind. I know Maxi. should have plenty of enough depth, to allow healthy weedgrowth without interfering with recreational activities, but Bass on the other hand, does not enjoy this kind of water depth in such large volume.I myself have witnessed huge declines in plant growth over just the last 5 years, and with that declining fish catches. Maybe I need to relearn how to catch these fish through the ice, but it was much simpler fishing the weedbeds. How do you reach a workable compromise on a shallow lake, used heavily for recreation?
Thankyou, Coondog

[AlgaeKilla]

The picture I posted was of hydrilla in a lake. Be it Florida, Pennsylvania, or here it can grow vertically and horizontally up to 5 feet a day in 80 degree water. It is said to be the "ultimate water weed" because it can propagate through fragmentation, seeds, roots, tubers, and turions. It can and will form a monoculture. Meaning... it out competes every other aquatic plant. This is what was discovered in Lake Manitou in September of '06. The growing season is indeed different here than in Florida, but the tubers and turions can "winter over". Also the nutrient loading here is similar to that of Florida. As a matter of fact we often have more nitrogen and phosphorus than they do in the south.
As far as a compromise, you need to realize that although some funding for weed treatments does come from lake property owners this does not dictate what the state will grant a permit for. Much (some in the know say too much) research is conducted on lake seeking a permit and the majority of large scale lake treatment permits are granted in order to eradicate invasives and reclaim native weed populations to the best of the ability of those involved.
Yes, catch rates do decline when invasive weeds decline because fisherman are creatures of habit. If they were here last year they should be here this year. The fact of the matter is we need to drill more hole and find the fish. If you think about it, in the last five years the ice season has been anything but consistant. The number one variable in catchin' fish in weather. I'm not talking about global warming because that's a whole other can of warms. I'm simply saying that in the last 5 years the winter weather has been different than I remember it in the 80's and 90's.
Nutrient loading has also changed in the last decade. Most of the lake houses in northern Indiana used dump sewage directly in to the lake. Thankfully that has changed. They are still spending a ton of money trying to clean up the watersheds and sewage systems on public and private lakes. This is not man trying to stop the progress of nature, but rather trying to limit the damage they have already done.