?? about sleepers and game wardens

[BrrrWis]

I am pretty sure that there was a recent court decision which prohibits them from doing so.

[venom]

 That go's for the one's who follow the law.

[acdc5678]

good luck with that one even if it is like your home the dnr has more power than actual police officers the dnr doesnt need warrants or anything else that a regular county sheriff or local officer would need to say search a business or a home all they need is a suspicionthe thing with the lock on the door is you will get fined if they come and its locked and your inside your best bet is to lock it and not make any noise what so ever so they think no one is home if you would want to lock it but otherwise there isnt anything you can do about it

[camocrazy82]

Heres a good idea, make a trip wire that runs to an alarm in the shack, place the trip wire 50 yds from either side of the place and when someone comes int the wire BBBBEEEEEEEEEPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Problem solved! If you dont like that idea or prefer a more stealthy approach use driveway monitors!

[dalwhe1970]

This is an awsome post and I too have run into this .. The Solution is to put a beware of dog sign on your shack and then everyone knocks first; The signs are cheap and takes four staples to get it on the door and done; Northern manitoba where I used to live had many shacks with beware of dog signs on them and the warden always knocks to or three times and announces his position also; Try it , you will like it...And then say "Oh sorry, the dog is at home tonight "......

[BrrrWis]

good luck with that one even if it is like your home the dnr has more power than actual police officers the dnr doesnt need warrants or anything else that a regular county sheriff or local officer would need to say search a business or a home all they need is a suspicionthe thing with the lock on the door is you will get fined if they come and its locked and your inside your best bet is to lock it and not make any noise what so ever so they think no one is home if you would want to lock it but otherwise there isnt anything you can do about it

I just retired after 32 years in law enforcement and I can assure you that the DNR does not have any more power than any other law enforcement officer.  That is what they would like you to believe but the U.S. Constitution applies to all LEOS.  Too many people believe that the DNR does not need warrants for searches and seizures that most people never challenge them.  I had a warden attempt to board my boat and check my live well.  Since I had not yet caught any fish and had not done anything illegal  I knew that he did not have any "probable cause" to search my boat.  When I told him that I was not going to allow him to board my boat unless he could inform me what his probable cause was he backed off.  He knew that I knew what I was talking about.  Most people would assume he had the right and therefore would have let him board.  Some people believe they can come into your house and search your freezer without a warrant.  This is absolutely incorrect.  They would have to have a warrant signed by a judge.  The judge would require reasonable belief that a crime has been comitted or about to committed and the the warrant was necessary to obtain evidence of the crime or prevent the destruction of such evidence.  If more sportsman would challenge them and take them to court maybe they would not run slipshod over our rights!   

[camocrazy82]

Thanks BrrrWis! That is what America is supposed to be about! For The People! I do not condone any illegle gaming activity but we should not sit on our buckets, on our boats or in our house and be victimized by the Gov. Keep it legal and dont bend over for the GOV!

[Spin]

     BrrWis's post was pretty much on but perhaps not completely. No disrespect Sir I've got friends and family
in law enforcement as well as DA and States Attorney's offices. Sometimes searches get accepted as legal and sometimes not. I'm sure you've run into that. There are circumstances apparently where a Warden does not need a signed warrent and they do conduct broader types of searches due to the nature of their job. Before anyone decides to be a sh%thouse lawyer and buy into some real legal trouble over whats most likely a small matter, get a little better informed than a few brief posts on a fishing site or a "this guy told me" at some tavern after several beers source.
     If really interested you can start by Googleing "game warden search rights". Answer.com I think heads up the list and has a pretty good description layed out in laymans terms.

                                                                                                             Spin

[venom]

  Wow alot of info I never even knew thanks guy's Im not out breaking laws just had many problems in the past and needed to know where to dig my foot in the door and to know my rights when Im on the ice or in my boat.

[BrrrWis]

In many jurisdictions conservation officers or game wardens have very broad authority. However, it is a fallacy that they can perform a search without a warrant in instances where regular law enforcement officers would need to obtain a warrant first. Conservation officers are bound by Supreme Court decisions just like any other law enforcement officer.-from Ask.com

This was my point in my intial post.  Since this is a WI board I was refering to DNR activities in WI.

Due to the specialized nature of their job, and the specialized search and seizure rules that they must adhere to, these game wardens do "seem" to be able to conduct searches and seizure that other law enforcement officials can not do. -from Ask.com

They are using the word seem here for a reason.

Conservation officers can, and routinely do, seize fishing equipment, firearms, vehicles, watercraft, and other equipment and property used in the commission of fish and game crimes with and without warrants. -from Ask.com

No special priveleges here.  PO's routinely conficate items as evidence and impound vehicles used in the comission of a crime.

The law in Louisiana for instance states in part "...any commissioned wildlife agent may visit, inspect, and examine, with or without [a] search warrant, records, any cold storage plant, warehouse, boat, store, car, conveyance, automobile or other vehicle, airplane or other aircraft, basket or other receptacle, or any place of deposit for wild birds, wild quadrupeds, fish or other aquatic life or any parts thereof whenever there is probable cause to believe that a violation has occurred.[/i] -from Ask.com

Probable cause is the key.  No LEO can search your belongings just because they feel like it.  Exigent circumstances may be reason for a warrantless search however probable cause must still be present.

These so called special priveleges are often written into the laws at the request of the DNR.  The wording is reviewed by the State AG's office to see if they would be constitutional.  Laws and "priveleges" granted by politicians often do not stand up to Constutional muster when challenged.  Unfortunately most of us do not have the knowledge or the resources to mount a successful challenge.

I was not attempting to give legal advice to anyone.  I can only speak on the knowledge that I have and from my personal experiences.  I certainly do not know everything and neither does the State Attorney Generals office.  This post was in no way intended to be a DNR bashing experience.  I know several kind, respectful and courteous DNR Officers.  They have a thankless job. Thank God that they are out there protecting the resources that we all enjoy.  My only intention is to encourage Sportsman to do some research and learn what their rights really are rather than assume what they "hear over a couple of beers" is gospel.

[liprippinWI]

Wow, some great info here.  I guess I never considered needing info like this heading into the hardwater season, but when you think about it, the more informed we are as sportsmen, the better it is for all of us.  Thanks, Brr, for the great posts.  Keep em honest!

[venom]

 Yes, thank you BrrWis for the info. It has been a great help.

[Mainehazmt]

this is a start to change here in maine!   I figure that the defendant  Must have a few bucks to be able to go this route too!

Court to ponder legality of ATV stops
Search-seizure protection at center of case
 
By Judy Harrison
BDN Staff
PORTLAND, Maine — The Maine Supreme Judicial Court today will consider whether the law that allows game wardens to stop ATV riders for any reason violates constitutional protections against unreasonable searches and seizures. Oral arguments will be heard in the court’s chambers in the Cumberland County Courthouse.

The case stems from the Aug. 5, 2007, stop of Brent L. McKeen, 51, of Mars Hill, who was riding his ATV on a trail in his hometown. After the warden required McKeen to stop, he administered a field sobriety test and charged him with operating under the influence of intoxicants.

McKeen requested a jury trial and the case was moved from 2nd District Court to Aroostook County Superior Court. Last year, Superior Court Justice E. Allen Hunter found that the law is unconstitutional.

Prosecutors appealed to the state’s high court to resolve what appears to be a state statute that is incompatible with the U.S. and Maine constitutions.

“The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution as well as Article 5 of the Maine Constitution protect all citizens against unreasonable searches and protects their privacy,” McKeen’s attorney, Alan Harding of Presque Isle, said Monday. “The U.S. Supreme Court previously said that police officers did not have the right to stop automobiles simply to check their license and registration.”

The law that allows wardens to stop ATV and snowmobile riders has been on the books for more than 50 years and included cars until the U.S. Supreme Court issued a decision in 1979, he said. That decision found that law enforcement officers had to have a reasonable suspicion to stop drivers.

Maine amended its law shortly after that decision to prevent the police from stopping drivers for any reason, according to Harding, but left intact the provisions that applied to off-road vehicles and snowmobiles.

“A person operating an ATV probably has a greater expectation of privacy than the average citizen operating an automobile,” Harding said, “because an ATV rider is normally in unpopulated areas, goes past few homes, few businesses and meets little passing traffic in contrast to automobiles on highways.”

Todd Collins, assistant district attorney for Aroostook County, who will argue the case on the state’s behalf, said Monday that there is a big difference between cars and recreational vehicles such as ATVs and snowmobiles.

But Collins argued in his brief that the state has three reasons for allowing wardens to stop ATV riders for any reason:

— Checking to see whether ATVs are registered to improve the collection of registration fees, a portion of which is used to acquire and manage public lands.

— Expanding access to private property for recreational use.

— Protecting public safety.

“Automobiles in modern society are part and parcel of everyday life,” he said Monday. “ATVs, [which] are basically big toys, should be subject to a greater degree of scrutiny. An ATV can pretty much go anywhere — fields, streams, off roads, in the woods — on what is primarily privately owned land. I’ll be asking the Law Court to look at the Legislature’s intent in using these kinds of stops as a tool to curb abuses so that private land remains open to the public.”

The Maine Civil Liberties Union has filed a “friend of the court” brief in support of McKeen.

“This statute grants powers to the Warden Service that go far beyond what is acceptable under the Fourth Amendment,” Zachary Heiden, legal director of the MCLU, said last week in a press release about the case. “Under our Constitution, people should be free from unreasonable searches, and citizens should be left alone unless there is specific reason to believe they have committed a crime.”

There is no timetable under which the court must issue its decision.

http://bangornews.com/detail/97025.html

[Tainterslayer]

I would put up a sign saying "Uninvited guests must knock before entering otherwise they will be treated as persons breaking and entering."
Or put 5 door handles on the door and only one works 

[venom]

Or put 5 door handles on the door and only one works 


  There you go thats the ticket I never thaught of that one and Ive got many of them around the shop Ha! Door handles from top to bottom and only one opens it thats grand!!

[fishcamp]

The basis for the "no lock" law is the preservation of evidence exception that is used in drug raids. This is the criteria that a warden has to meet. If there is a way to dispose of evidence, (open hole) you can't lock the door. If there are no open holes, you can legally lock the door anytime.  Some courts have ruled that frozen holes are closed and you can have the door locked, but it's a judgement call. The easiest way to lock your doors legally is to move the shanty off the holes.  As long as there is no way to get rid of evidence (fish), you have the same privacy rights as your home.  I have a small fiberglass camper that I routinely use to stay on the ice for extended periods. It has no fishing holes in it, I fish out of my portable. I have had wardens walk in twice without knocking. In both cases, when they realized there were no holes, they apologized and left. 

[acdc5678]

I just retired after 32 years in law enforcement and I can assure you that the DNR does not have any more power than any other law enforcement officer.  That is what they would like you to believe but the U.S. Constitution applies to all LEOS.  Too many people believe that the DNR does not need warrants for searches and seizures that most people never challenge them.  I had a warden attempt to board my boat and check my live well.  Since I had not yet caught any fish and had not done anything illegal  I knew that he did not have any "probable cause" to search my boat.  When I told him that I was not going to allow him to board my boat unless he could inform me what his probable cause was he backed off.  He knew that I knew what I was talking about.  Most people would assume he had the right and therefore would have let him board.  Some people believe they can come into your house and search your freezer without a warrant.  This is absolutely incorrect.  They would have to have a warrant signed by a judge.  The judge would require reasonable belief that a crime has been comitted or about to committed and the the warrant was necessary to obtain evidence of the crime or prevent the destruction of such evidence.  If more sportsman would challenge them and take them to court maybe they would not run slipshod over our rights!   

OK BrrWis first of all if you hold a fishing  or hunting licenece  that gives them all the cause they need to enter a shack or check a bucket. also with your boat  situation were you fishing? because if you were fishing thats  all the cause he would need  to check your coolers or live wells whether you have caught fish or not.  especially since hunting and fishing isnt considered your right its considered as a privilege and the dnr may not be able to check your house but if you own say a taxidermy business you must let them check freezers with out any type of warrant. A dnr warden can also check your gun in the field see if it legal or if legal ammo is being used. just remember that next time hunting and fishing isnt your right its a privilege

[mdaniels]

In the shack sleeping, someone barges right in, half asleep, thinking someone is breaking in....  could happen.....

Now relax mdaniels.

Wasn't trying to be a jerk.  It's just that I've been a police officer for 26 years and I get a little testy when people imply or suggest using ANY violence against law enforcement officers.  Been to too many funerals not to feel that way. 

[HawkEyeman]

Worthy discussion here fellas! Thanks for all the back and forth.... Better to talk it out here than talk ethics and legality with a warden out on the ice!

I second the dog idea AND the coffee. My dog is the biggest push over ever, wouldn't hurt a fly but she'd notice footfalls 50 yards away for sure... The dog would inevitably wake me up, I'd pour two cups of coffee, and meet the warden out on the ice!

[Melbs7]

I think I'm like most people... I don't mind them coming in and looking around.... but I don't like them just barging in. I don't own a sleeper, but if I did, and a warden knocked... I wouldnt have a problem with that. They barge in... and I won't be one bit happy.