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Ice Fishing Tips -Check your local regulations! => Northern Pike => Topic started by: St. Lawrence River Guy on Jan 21, 2018, 07:22 PM

Title: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: St. Lawrence River Guy on Jan 21, 2018, 07:22 PM
I've been running 30lb mono leaders for a few years and my results have really improved since switching from traditional wire leaders.  However, today I had two fish break off those leaders (they might have been damaged last weekend but I didn't see any noticeable issues when baiting my hooks).

So, in very clear water (today I was sight fishing perch in 20 ft+ of water) what's your leader of choice.

Type, weight, brand?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: mvanhank222 on Jan 21, 2018, 07:35 PM
Seagar blue label leader 20 lb for pike 8 lb for walleye 2 or 4 lb for panfish
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: northernnyice on Jan 22, 2018, 07:28 AM
Seaguar 60lb fluoro leader material. This is important... fluorocarbon line and fluorocarbon leader material are not the same. The actual leader material is much more resistant to abrassive tension. And ive been bit off on 60.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: St. Lawrence River Guy on Jan 22, 2018, 06:45 PM
I've heard good things about seaguar.  Always balked at the price but by the time you buy tip ups, bait, shanties, heaters, etc, etc, etc, losing big fish b/c I didn't spend $20 on leaders seems silly.

Just placed an order for some 60lb leaders.

Thx.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Evil Tom on Jan 23, 2018, 09:37 AM
Why not braided line?.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: frigidaire on Jan 23, 2018, 10:30 AM
I really like Malin BOA single strand titanium wire for pike leaders.  Super fine, nearly impossible to kink, hangs dead straight and you can tie knots with it.  20 or 30 pound test. About $20 for a 30ft coil in a zip lock bag on a card.  I only mention that because when you take it out of the bag you dare not let go of it or the entire 30ft length will lay out flat and dead straight for the entire 30ft.  I get mine from Tackle Direct.com, but I have seen it elsewhere.  PS I'm currently also evaluating Segaur 30# fluoro LEADER....
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: northernnyice on Jan 26, 2018, 01:48 PM
Why not braided line?.

Braided line is extremely strong but is easily cut when under stress.. you probably wont break a knot but a sharp tooth could be disastrous..
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Evil Tom on Jan 27, 2018, 08:55 AM
I've been using 30lb braided haven't had any problems.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Jan 27, 2018, 10:23 AM
I've been using 30lb braided haven't had any problems.

For a pike leader? Either you're not catching any toothies or you need to go buy a Powerball.

I've said it repeatedly, I get to say it again. Any plastic can be cut and at some point that will happen. Titanium? Really the only advantage over steel is it's kink-free nature which, for me, is not worth the much higher price point.

Sure sounds cool to say you're using the "latest, greatest" but day in, day out I'd be very surprised to be significantly outfished by anyone using "alternative" leader material. Yes, I've been out fished on occasion but the key word here is "significantly". Also note that the word "consistently" is missing as it applies to neither steel, titanium or plastic.

Lots (and lots) of anecdotal observations around "I get more flags with fluorocarbon" but I say if I had the "hot hole" (and you know they exist on any given day) I could use clothesline for leader and outfish everyone. It's the old deal, no one (well hardly anyone) leaves a decent bite to see if it can be even better or to prove worse or doesn't work.

For me, 20# uncoated wire is cheap, dirt easy to work with (no crimps necessary), very flexible (more so than 60# fluoro) and cut proof. I did not say "break proof" and that can happen, especially at the hole if you don't mind yer p's and q's.

OK. That's it. I'm done (again), at least for a while.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Yukoner on Jan 28, 2018, 12:01 AM
I have been using South Bend Invisa leaders for the past ten years or so.  Started using them when pike were stealing my small whitefish lures. 

http://www.south-bend.com/products/terminal-tackle/leaders/invisa-leader-flexible

Use the 12# leader, and get as many strikes as anyone else.  Caught lots of whites and never lost a pike because they cut off, so use them for everything now.

Ted
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Coachkwj on Dec 01, 2018, 10:58 AM
I use 7 strand wire in 18 lb test with crimps. Never had an issue or breakoff. Super thin and very easy to work with. My son bought into the 50 lb flouro and I never seem to get out fished. As Essox said the spot is likely more important. 18 lb wire is dirt cheap and super thin and will never get bit off. I color them with black marker to dull the shine of the wire. It does kink but most times you can straighten it out. If not, again cheap to replace.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: HWeber on Dec 01, 2018, 11:05 AM
I use 7 strand wire in 18 lb test with crimps. Never had an issue or breakoff. Super thin and very easy to work with. My son bought into the 50 lb flouro and I never seem to get out fished. As Essox said the spot is likely more important. 18 lb wire is dirt cheap and super thin and will never get bit off. I color them with black marker to dull the shine of the wire. It does kink but most times you can straighten it out. If not, again cheap to replace.

X2  :thumbsup:, teeth don't cut wire. I've used down to 10lb wire with no issues :tipup:
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: stinkyfingers on Dec 01, 2018, 11:17 AM
For a pike leader? Either you're not catching any toothies or you need to go buy a Powerball.

I've said it repeatedly, I get to say it again. Any plastic can be cut and at some point that will happen. Titanium? Really the only advantage over steel is it's kink-free nature which, for me, is not worth the much higher price point.

Sure sounds cool to say you're using the "latest, greatest" but day in, day out I'd be very surprised to be significantly outfished by anyone using "alternative" leader material. Yes, I've been out fished on occasion but the key word here is "significantly". Also note that the word "consistently" is missing as it applies to neither steel, titanium or plastic.

Lots (and lots) of anecdotal observations around "I get more flags with fluorocarbon" but I say if I had the "hot hole" (and you know they exist on any given day) I could use clothesline for leader and outfish everyone. It's the old deal, no one (well hardly anyone) leaves a decent bite to see if it can be even better or to prove worse or doesn't work.

For me, 20# uncoated wire is cheap, dirt easy to work with (no crimps necessary), very flexible (more so than 60# fluoro) and cut proof. I did not say "break proof" and that can happen, especially at the hole if you don't mind yer p's and q's.

OK. That's it. I'm done (again), at least for a while.
I've had a enough sound advice from esox_xtm in recent years to know that he is a better pike fisherman than I am and I'm just going to follow his practice. Farewell to the 40#

and 80# fluoro and the Knot-2-Kinky and all the crimps and swagers. Hello to the single strand (have some 27#) and I can already do a pretty good haywire twist. 
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Iceassin on Dec 01, 2018, 12:28 PM
I've had a enough sound advice from esox_xtm in recent years to know that he is a better pike fisherman than I am and I'm just going to follow his practice. Farewell to the 40#

and 80# fluoro and the Knot-2-Kinky and all the crimps and swagers. Hello to the single strand (have some 27#) and I can already do a pretty good haywire twist.

Agreed...esox knows his esox.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Martian on Dec 14, 2018, 09:59 AM
this will be debated a long time. My buddy uses FC, and swears by it, He runs his fingers down by the hook, after every release, to see if there are any abrasions, ,if so, he re-ties.. One time I forgot my leader box, and had put trebles right on the snap swivel tied straight to tip up line( rope), we got just as many fish. I do not believe pike a line shy , or anything shy.i asked an old timer at my bait store about it, and he said the last tiem he looked , p[ike had teeth. I use wire on most of my leaders, and FC on a few just for grins, but do not see a difference, so when I get a fish on FC, all the way in I am concerned on a bite off, just my 2 cents
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Wheres Walleye on Dec 14, 2018, 11:42 AM
Thanks Essox, I'm convinced. How long a wire leader should I be using? 
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Dec 16, 2018, 10:34 AM
I don't use shorter than 12" and often longer (18"). Gets something thinner farther away from the Dacron, leaves room to retie for a kink without rebuilding and winds right up on your spool without memory issues.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Yukoner on Dec 17, 2018, 11:42 PM
I don't use shorter than 12" and often longer (18"). Gets something thinner farther away from the Dacron, leaves room to retie for a kink without rebuilding and winds right up on your spool without memory issues.

Where do you get your single strand wire?

Ted
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Dec 18, 2018, 06:32 AM
I only use single strand for open water leaders and then only on specific lure types to enhance their action. Live bait are all multi-strand wire. It is much more flexible and more conducive to better bait action. Uncoated 7 strand has been the standard for years but I've been looking at other, albeit more expensive, options: 1 x 19 and 7 x 7 (49 strand) in both coated and uncoated versions.

Why? Uncoated 7 strand is dirt cheap and easy to work with but can kink easily and get "curly" after only one fish. The curl doesn't weaken the line but can affect bait movement and very occasionally get snarled in itself with bait movement. Curls can be addressed (somewhat) and kinked leaders are cheap and easy to swap out. But I'm a curious guy.

Would a light nylon coating keep wire from curling and I could fish longer without having to mess with it? It is billed as being more kink resistant which is a plus. Additionally, all the multi-strand wires with more than 7 strands are advertised as being tieable. Twisting 7 strand is so easy it's criminal but tying could be even easier if it's solid.

My first tests are with my standard 20# test in the coated 7 x 7. I tied connections with a figure 8 knot (how simple is that?). The knot is low profile and can be tied easily with cold hands on the ice requiring only a wire nipper to trim the tag. In the small sample size on small fish the results are good. No kinks, curls less, still no spool memory, more flexible than 7 strand, not significantly thicker and easy to work with. Caught a number of walleyes, small pike and a bass with no issues. I really need to "pressure test" on some larger fish before I give a wholehearted endorsement but so far, so good.

Since I've got a lot more time to play I want to test a range of selections to see what suits my needs best and what I can "get away with". Here's a link to my old standby: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B003GRAAFY/?coliid=I1U4QJDY7W5BZ3&colid=1Y4POXUWH3MLQ&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B003GRAAFY/?coliid=I1U4QJDY7W5BZ3&colid=1Y4POXUWH3MLQ&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)

Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: azj5001 on Dec 18, 2018, 03:54 PM
I used 20-25lbs 7 strand stainless steel wire this fall. Look up how the guys in the UK tie their leaders. They call them traces no crimping required just twisting with locking pliers. I had no issues with them last fall I'll be trying them this winter on tip ups using dead herring and mackerel.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: a_virden on Dec 26, 2018, 08:48 PM
Good info from esox.  Now I have to change all my leaders
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Takes2Long on Jan 21, 2019, 01:25 PM
I've caught too many pike, chain pickerel and even walleyes on 50 lb. Fireline braid to switch to anything else. I've never had one snap off, but I had bigger fish break the hook or the barrel swivel on my tip ups.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Yukoner on Jan 21, 2019, 06:12 PM
I used 20-25lbs 7 strand stainless steel wire this fall. Look up how the guys in the UK tie their leaders. They call them traces no crimping required just twisting with locking pliers. I had no issues with them last fall I'll be trying them this winter on tip ups using dead herring and mackerel.

Hi azj5001.

Can you post a link to the UK guys leaders tips?  Would like to see how they are doing this.

Thanks,
Ted
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Jan 21, 2019, 06:21 PM
Rule #1: Never skimp on terminal tackle. Your hook, swivel, whatever are your connection to your prize. Buy quality hooks and swivels. Never had either one break. They're not "that expensive" and the investment is worthwhile. Even if your leader is trashed I've reused hooks and swivel on the 2nd gen rig.

Doesn't have to be sexy stuff either, Eagle Claw makes some great hooks (right here in the USofA) and my choice for most snaps and swivels goes to SPRO. Ok, SPRO is sorta sexy, still... No affiliation, just a satisfied retail customer.

Rule #2: If you are fishing quality tackle and break a rod, line, leader, swivel or hook and you have line left on the spool, the fish didn't break it. You did.

@Yukoner: Like this - https://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=243422.msg2468614#msg2468614 (https://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=243422.msg2468614#msg2468614)  ;)2
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Yukoner on Jan 21, 2019, 07:14 PM
Got it!

Will order some 30# seven strand.

Thanks,
Ted
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Coachkwj on Feb 02, 2019, 08:45 PM
Finally got out today.
Set my Finicky Foolers with 18 lb. braided wire out and my son put his tipups with 30 lb flouro out. Claims he was having luck with 50 lb. so decided to drop to 30 and see if odds improve. I got 4 takes, one being a 34 incher which was a blast to fight on 10 lb line instead of hand over hand but that's another story. My son got 1 and shortly into the fight bit him off. I got all 4 of mine in. The fact I got 4 takes vs. his one I'm sure as location but the fact that I landed 4 and his lone take bit him off was due to the wire. Watched the video Essox posted link to and don't need crimps anymore. Slick. 2 takeaways. I will always use wire and unless it's really cold I will use the Finicky Fooler. Sold my I-fish Pro. Too much messing around and didn't like the trip mechanism.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 03, 2019, 05:25 PM
Finally got out today.
Set my Finicky Foolers with 18 lb. braided wire out and my son put his tipups with 30 lb flouro out. Claims he was having luck with 50 lb. so decided to drop to 30 and see if odds improve. I got 4 takes, one being a 34 incher which was a blast to fight on 10 lb line instead of hand over hand but that's another story. My son got 1 and shortly into the fight bit him off. I got all 4 of mine in. The fact I got 4 takes vs. his one I'm sure as location but the fact that I landed 4 and his lone take bit him off was due to the wire. Watched the video Essox posted link to and don't need crimps anymore. Slick. 2 takeaways. I will always use wire and unless it's really cold I will use the Finicky Fooler. Sold my I-fish Pro. Too much messing around and didn't like the trip mechanism.

 ;)2 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Evil Tom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:45 PM
Many times have been broken off using fluoro that's why I switched to braid years ago.I know almost everyone hates it for leaders but it works for me and many others.Ive been using suffix performance braid in the 20-30 lb range.I use it on most of my reels as well as tipups because it's way cheaper than all different kinds of wire or braided wire(why)and easy to use.Yea you can rip your hand open when playing a fish by hand but not any different than with fluoro or mono etc.I always wear gloves.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 03, 2019, 07:44 PM
Many times have been broken off using fluoro that's why I switched to braid years ago.I know almost everyone hates it for leaders but it works for me and many others.Ive been using suffix performance braid in the 20-30 lb range.I use it on most of my reels as well as tipups because it's way cheaper than all different kinds of wire or braided wire(why)and easy to use.Yea you can rip your hand open when playing a fish by hand but not any different than with fluoro or mono etc.I always wear gloves.

Anything but musky/pike/pickerel ET, anything. That's why...
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: HWeber on Feb 03, 2019, 09:49 PM
We really need a face palm emoji on this site  ::) doesn't quite cut it..
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 04, 2019, 06:38 AM
We really need a face palm emoji on this site  ::) doesn't quite cut it..

(https://i.postimg.cc/pTfh32QT/facepalm.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Feb 05, 2019, 07:41 AM
esox xtm has almost converted me to using wire.hard to do when ive had 2 or 3 breakoffs using 20 or 25 pound mono going on 30 years.i ordered some afw 7 strand this morning,and will use his tool and make up some leaders.im stubborn and get stuck in what works for me but ill expand some other proven techniques.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 05, 2019, 08:15 AM
No sin in going with what you know Doc. That why everyone has a different opinion. They're all based on our experiences and everyone has a different experience, some very different. The more experience backing your opinion, the stronger that opinion is, diminishing the likelihood of change. That's the way the world works.

I like to try to keep my mind open so I don't miss anything. In fact, I'm being challenged right now to re-visit light fluoro (like 20#) for live baiting pike. It's gonna be hard but perhaps the right location will make a difference. I got cut off three times fishing in heavy weeds before I even got to the tippy. Just the fish taking evasive maneuvers through the salad created enough pressure to cut me off. Open water might be a different story...

I'll never change my tune on superline/"braid" for pike leaders though.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Iceassin on Feb 05, 2019, 08:22 AM
esox xtm has almost converted me to using wire.hard to do when ive had 2 or 3 breakoffs using 20 or 25 pound mono going on 30 years.i ordered some afw 7 strand this morning,and will use his tool and make up some leaders.im stubborn and get stuck in what works for me but ill expand some other proven techniques.

First time using this year for me Doc. 13# 7-strand...13# pike. No more mono or fluoro for me. This stuff delivered. Esox knows what he's talking about .
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: PikeKing23 on Feb 05, 2019, 09:52 AM
Yes, everyone has opinions, but let's not forget there are also things out there like Science and Psychics.  Hold a taught braided line and run it gently over a sharp knife to see how easily it breaks.  Then do the same thing with the same pound test fluorocarbon (leader material).  You will find that the braid will easily break while the flouro will hold up.  This is common knowledge people, based on the properties of the materials.  It's not like Esox and myself are telling you that the world is flat. ;)

Oh and Steel is Real!

Love that quote - sorry for whoever made it up, but I'm stealing it!
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Feb 06, 2019, 08:54 AM
ok esox xtm is this a decent method on twisting up wire?getting ready to twist some up when my afw 20# 7 strand gets here.also does the swivel twist on the same way?looks so dang easy!!now where did my wife put my twizzle stick?thats the hard part..finding it!lol.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 06, 2019, 09:26 AM
ok esox xtm is this a decent method on twisting up wire?getting ready to twist some up when my afw 20# 7 strand gets here.also does the swivel twist on the same way?looks so dang easy!!now where did my wife put my twizzle stick?thats the hard part..finding it!lol.

Yep! That's almost exactly what I do. I conserve wire by adjusting the tag so I don't have to trim excess. I also heat just the last 3/16" or so of the wire. Don't need a zillion twists either. As few as five works fine, most of mine run 7ish. I don't count, just leave 3/4 to and inch of tag and wrap it up. DON'T FORGET you need to go through the hook or swivel eye twice before twisting or your connection will almost certainly fail.

Swivels twist on the same way. You'll have to hook the twiddler (that's the way I learned it though I've heard it both ways) into the same eye the wire is in or it just, well, swivels. Due to the wire size I used in the tool it can be challenging with a small swivel. On the #8 SPRO Power Swivels I commonly use it takes a but of fiddling. Make sure the wire is tight in the eye and aligned then tip the hook on the twiddler a bit to engage the edge of the hook. There's plenty of room to work once in but it's not the easiest. I designed those before I went to the smaller swivels so it wasn't a problem. In retrospect I should have put a pencil point on the end. Then it would be EZPZ. If you have a mind you could take a small file or Dremel to the tool and "sharpen" it a bit. On very small hooks you can twist from the hook bend if the eye is too small.

The heat isn't really necessary but if you use heavier wire (30# and up) or are making lots of rigs (more than a half dozen or so) it helps. If you don't heat, when the wire comes around the last bit it tends to poke into your thumb or finger. heating anneals the wire without weakening it to allow it to wrap more "softly" if you will.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Feb 06, 2019, 09:32 AM
Ok.ill post some pics when i make them.going all out!both tipups with traces!!haha.thanks for your advice.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Coachkwj on Feb 09, 2019, 08:34 AM
I buy alot of gear from Harris Sportsmail in the UK and found a twiddle stick and scent and dye. Good prices and shipping is cheaper than US sites.
https://www.harrissportsmail.com/usa/predator-fishing-tackle/predator-accessories-136
Think I got the last twiddle stick because they show out of stock now.
Those guys are a bit ahead of the curve on this kind of stuff.
Got my eyes opened when I got into carp fishing and learned from a guy who lived in England most of his life.
I'm addicted to it now.
I know most people will say carp are trash fish but when I can drive 15 minutes to a river that doesn't get fished and catch 20 to 30 pound freight trains consistently count me in. Carp and some catfish are the only catchable fish in this river.
Story for another forum though.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Feb 11, 2019, 12:36 PM
So heres my first twist.its kind of janky at the hook eye.its hard to hold it all together while twisting.esox xtm is this strong enough to try?or am I wasting wire.lol.i  will get it down.maybe not this year.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sMt3bpZL/842-DC75-E-4-A89-445-F-B471-E4-CB49048-F10.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMt3bpZL)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MMYxcNrk/8-C75-FE8-F-5-A48-4493-B082-638-E45570-B46.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MMYxcNrk)
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 11, 2019, 01:08 PM
So heres my first twist.its kind of janky at the hook eye.its hard to hold it all together while twisting.esox xtm is this strong enough to try?or am I wasting wire.lol.i  will get it down.maybe not this year.


Absolutely fine Doc. There's nothing wrong with those unless you are hopelessly OCD...  :whistle:  :roflmao:

You should have seen my first ones I made by the "twirling forceps" method. Janky doesn't even begin to cover some of those. Really, as long as you've got it through the eye twice and at least five wraps it doesn't matter how it looks (well, sort of  ::)) because the connection will be good.

You did a nice job for maiden voyage. Practice makes perfect.  :thumbsup: :clap:

Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: PikeKing23 on Feb 11, 2019, 01:16 PM
Another little trick is for trimming the tag end - bend it back and forth until it breaks.  It will break right at the twist and not leave a sharp end to poke your finger.  I use single strand, though.  I don't know if it will work with multi strand.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Feb 11, 2019, 01:22 PM
Absolutely fine Doc. There's nothing wrong with those unless you are hopelessly OCD...  :whistle:  :roflmao:

You should have seen my first ones I made by the "twirling forceps" method. Janky doesn't even begin to cover some of those. Really, as long as you've got it through the eye twice and at least five wraps it doesn't matter how it looks (well, sort of  ::)) because the connection will be good.

You did a nice job for maiden voyage. Practice makes perfect.  :thumbsup: :clap:
thank you esox xtm for the tool to do it with.im amazed at how thin 7 strand is and its quite smaller diameter than the mono i use so it should be pretty stealthy.so it can wrap around the tipups spool without turning into a coily spring too?
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: ActiveTrapChecker on Feb 11, 2019, 02:04 PM
Another little trick is for trimming the tag end - bend it back and forth until it breaks.  It will break right at the twist and not leave a sharp end to poke your finger.  I use single strand, though.  I don't know if it will work with multi strand.

Not sure if it's good or bad, but i cover the tag end after i snip it with beads
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Feb 11, 2019, 02:43 PM
One more question..lol before i just fish these on my tipups.can i put a splitshot on the wire?they are pretty long to put it on the tipup main line.i always put one about 12 away from the minnow so it goes down easily.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 11, 2019, 03:31 PM
Yep on the shot. I often do.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Feb 11, 2019, 04:29 PM
Yep on the shot. I often do.
nice thanks again.i may never use heavy mono again on my tipups.i did get a couple pokes from the treble hook points fumbling with my fingers/hands shaking due to severe arthritis.my shaking helps with the unintentional jigging motion for bluegills sometimes.. not so good tying anything on to line or wire.hahaha
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 11, 2019, 05:54 PM
nice thanks again.i may never use heavy mono again on my tipups.i did get a couple pokes from the treble hook points fumbling with my fingers/hands shaking due to severe arthritis.my shaking helps with the unintentional jigging motion for bluegills sometimes.. not so good tying anything on to line or wire.hahaha

Hmmm. Stuff I do without thinking anymore. I always twist the swivel first. Can't say how many times I did the hook first only to get it snagged in something when I got to twisting the swivel. You've got a good start Doc  :clap: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Coachkwj on Feb 11, 2019, 09:54 PM
So heres my first twist.its kind of janky at the hook eye.its hard to hold it all together while twisting.esox xtm is this strong enough to try?or am I wasting wire.lol.i  will get it down.maybe not this year.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sMt3bpZL/842-DC75-E-4-A89-445-F-B471-E4-CB49048-F10.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMt3bpZL)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MMYxcNrk/8-C75-FE8-F-5-A48-4493-B082-638-E45570-B46.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MMYxcNrk)
Looks good. Better than the first couple I made. Hopefully with my twiddle stick I'll get them even better. I like the bronze short shank hooks also vs nickel.
It is inevitable you will get one that swallows the hook. Cut the leader as close to the hook as possible and fish should be fine. Bare bronze hooks will rust or dissolve alot faster than nickel hooks. I did a test a couple years back with both kinds of hooks in a small filled tub. In 2 days the bare hook showed signs of rust. Took more than a week for the nickel hook. I don't have a problem sharpening the bronze hooks as they are not as sharp out of the box as higher end nickel hooks which I use exclusively for bass and like lures in open water.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 12, 2019, 06:19 AM
Looks good. Better than the first couple I made. Hopefully with my twiddle stick I'll get them even better. I like the bronze short shank hooks also vs nickel.
It is inevitable you will get one that swallows the hook. Cut the leader as close to the hook as possible and fish should be fine. Bare bronze hooks will rust or dissolve alot faster than nickel hooks. I did a test a couple years back with both kinds of hooks in a small filled tub. In 2 days the bare hook showed signs of rust. Took more than a week for the nickel hook. I don't have a problem sharpening the bronze hooks as they are not as sharp out of the box as higher end nickel hooks which I use exclusively for bass and like lures in open water.

I also prefer bronze or black hooks but for different reasons.

As far as gullet hooked fish I'm not convinced that any hook rusts quickly enough save the fish. Old timers used to say, "Ahhh! They rust out in a few days."

Water, on it's own, can create surface rust fairly quickly especially if there is a good supply of oxygen. For the deep, consuming rust that it would take for a hook to "dissolve" it would take much longer. Even the addition of a corrosive element to speed the process such as a stomach acid or salt would still not likely consume the hook as quickly as we might like to believe.

Check out this article that offers a study conducted by the Maryland DNR on deeply hooked fish: http://www.nesportsman.com/articles/article11.shtml (http://www.nesportsman.com/articles/article11.shtml). In the first test on stripers in the Chesapeake Bay, 70% of bronzed hooks remained after 120 days in brackish water (salt/fresh mix). In the second test which ran for 60 days 81% of the hooks remained. Not a great case for leader clipping. That and the fact that a fish cannot feed with it's gullet or mouth (seen this a coupla times) pinned shut.

So, what's a guy to do? If you go in through the gills carefully it is possible to grab the hook shank from the side, invert the hook and pop it right out. It sounds crazy but it has worked for me many times. Here's a look at how it goes:

.

Certainly barbless hooks would be an additional help. I've popped trebles out fairly easily, only pulling enough of the gullet out to grab the hook shank. In every case I've seen, once the hook is out, the gullet goes right back where it belongs. If the hook is not even visible gently pulling on the line can expose just enough of the shank to work with. A forceps is a much better tool than a pliers and a curved tip, slightly better than straight.

Once you try this you will be amazed at how quick and effective it is. You'll never clip a leader again.

Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Coachkwj on Feb 12, 2019, 03:47 PM
Can't tell you how many times I've done that on gut hooked bass, mostly with senkos as they eat them things. Single hook too. Tried it on a Pike with a treble and results were not so good. I actually caught a bass that was crapping out a hook, again a single. Doesn't happen often but next time I will give it a shot with the treble. Worst case I've got a couple dinners.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Feb 12, 2019, 03:57 PM
ive been using circle hooks on my tipups for years but those need to be snelled on so twisted wire wont work with them .that helps but pike swallow them sometimes too.i don't keep  pike over 32"so I hope the big ones don't swallow the hook but the thru the gill plate method does work.pike that swallow the hook under 32" are going home with me and getting fried or pickled anyways.i don't get many that swallow the hook tho,as  soon as my flag goes up I immediately go get it and set the hook.i don't wait for a run or 2nd run.if I miss it so be it.im a treasure hunter and love scrounging around on the river pulling lures out of snags.all of the lures new and old have no hooks on them from rusting out.the fishing line tangled all over is what hold them in the snags.i think environment,and different elements in the water on some lakes and rivers rust hooks faster than others.imo
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Feb 12, 2019, 04:28 PM
More and more with the small trebles I fish I am more likely to be quick on the trigger. Most are hooked neatly near the front or right in the corner. If it takes me a bit to get there or they're really on the feed they can slurp a shiner or sucker faster than you can blink. I figure if I get 'em, I get 'em and they're an easy release/unhook or I don't. No harm, no foul.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: DR.SPECKLER on Mar 06, 2019, 09:48 AM
sooo..im in a pike fishing slump.i have not caught a pike since I switched to wire...but no one else has had many flags either.ive only landed 2 northerns this whole season.normally 10 to 20 landed by now. pike season closes on the 15th in michigan.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: musky-man on Mar 08, 2019, 03:04 PM
I'm a big fan of steel. The other day I was getting a good amount of flags on a flouro set up, ran out of bait so moved a tip up with steel in that hole. Not a flag for the rest of the day. Put the gopro down to see what's up and this is what I got. Obviously they didnt like something. I think I had to much on the leader close to the shiner or that if I had the shiner a little higher keeping the leader above the pike it might have been different. What do you guys think? I really wanna keep my faith in steel lol
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: HWeber on Mar 08, 2019, 04:03 PM
I'm a big fan of steel. The other day I was getting a good amount of flags on a flouro set up, ran out of bait so moved a tip up with steel in that hole. Not a flag for the rest of the day. Put the gopro down to see what's up and this is what I got. Obviously they didnt like something. I think I had to much on the leader close to the shiner or that if I had the shiner a little higher keeping the leader above the pike it might have been different. What do you guys think? I really wanna keep my faith in steel lol

Oversized hooks and what looks to be thick coated wire doesn't help.  20lb uncoated wire and some size 8 trebles would make a difference imo. Another thing to consider is depending on how heavy fluorocarbon you use your minnows may be more or less active compared to the steel leader
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: musky-man on Mar 08, 2019, 04:08 PM
Thanx for the input. Totally agree on the hook size, spent the day switching out to smaller ones. The leader is just a single strand doubled up and twisted.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: HWeber on Mar 08, 2019, 04:16 PM
Gotcha. If you haven't checked out 49 strand wire its worth looking at.  Nearly as limp as braid
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Mar 08, 2019, 05:39 PM
There's applications for single strand wire but dangling live bait is not one of them. I use plenty of uncoated 20# stranded wire with good results. Smaller hooks, and unless you're on 20# fish consistently a good #10/3x strong is plenty of hook.
 
x2 on the 49 strand product. I've been playing with some this year in 20# along with the 19 strand in 17#, both lightly coated products. They allow you to tie pretty much any knot and are much more flexible than the 7 strand stuff. 20# Surflon is awesome!

What is the orange (bead?) above your shot? If I were to add color, and I often do, I add it near the bait either at the hook or on the tail.

I'm kind of a renegade and get bullied into fishing walleyes in pike water. I hate swapping my wire for plastic when I know I'll be "at risk" so I let it ride. Twice this year I fished right with the fluoro guys on 'eyes and even outfished ''em once by ADDING a colored jig to the business end of the rig. Fluoro is NOT invisible and location trumps presentation every time. Just sayin'...

Either go with the Surflon stuff or make a crimp free connection with uncoated seven strand using this: https://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=243422.msg2468614#msg2468614 (https://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=243422.msg2468614#msg2468614)
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: musky-man on Mar 09, 2019, 04:12 AM
I was waiting for you to chime in esox ;D. I'll admit I dont kno what specific kind of wire I'm using, bought a big spool of it a few years ago but after looking at pics of the stuff your recommending I recognized the marlin on packaging. I tied up some new leaders yesterday with smaller hooks and just one peice of straight wire instead of 1 peice doubled and twisted.the rest of the set up in the video is 20lb flouro connected to steel via spro barrel swivel so the steel doesn't dig into flouro at connection. I run 2 beads above shot on all my set ups as an attraction. I try to keep it higher up on the leader so fish can see it from further away. Also with a live shiner the beads slide together and click against the split shot giving off a little noise.  I'll try one bead and see if theres a difference.  Def agree that location trumps presentation,  I caught one small pike after the camera died that day on the leader you see in the video right before dark. The o/g set up works but i clearly could have caught a few more. Thanks for the advice!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hj22qnbG/20190309-053806.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Hj22qnbG)
New one on the left
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: Iceassin on Mar 09, 2019, 04:14 AM
sooo..im in a pike fishing slump.i have not caught a pike since I switched to wire...but no one else has had many flags either.ive only landed 2 northerns this whole season.normally 10 to 20 landed by now. pike season closes on the 15th in michigan.
[/quote

Same here Doc. First flag of the season I iced one. Since then I've had a bunch but can't seem to land one. I've done everything from circle hooks to trebles, hooking different on the bait, immediate hook sets to letting them run from here to Lake Huron...everyone of them has dropped it.  ???
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: esox_xtm on Mar 09, 2019, 05:41 AM
Been an odd season for me too. Last outing put it all on a thumbnail:

One small pike before noon (we were on the ice @ 6:00), a couple of "drive by" flags that were clearly bumped off or pulled by a spooked minnow but nothing else. I was in wire, one guy and his kid had mostly fluoro and a couple wire and my son was 2 fluoro/1 wire fishing a mix of live and dead baits.

Finally @ 4:55 pm I get a flag on a Q/S rig with a couple dead shiners. Swing and a miss... (how'd that happen?) I re-bait and Kyle gets a fluoro flag. Miss. My freshly set rig goes up again, 30"  ;D. Kyle misses another on wire. As he is re-baiting another of his goes up so he takes that. Miss. When he returns to the rig he was resetting he finds the wire leader broke off near the hook. He'd gotten his bait on and just threw it down the hole on a short line to get the other flag, just left the tippy lay next to the hole.

As the season progresses feeding windows get smaller, sometimes really small. We stayed till 6:30 with no further action. All day for about 20 minutes of excitement. And even then our total success was only 25% all day. Not very good.

Even earlier in the season we had issues with walleyes hitting, head shaking on the run and dropping bait. Setting hooks right away helped but all were barely hooked in the upper lip.

@musky-man: If your wire is 18 - 20# there's no benefit to doubling other than extra strength. 20# is plenty for most of the fish you'll catch and you can get the rest, just can't horse 'em. I've used as light as 12# but it's very fragile and really didn't get me bit more often. I know, it's very flexible as it comes off the spool and so thin it makes you wonder but it works.
 
Doc, Iceassin, I appreciate your adventurousness with wire as I also feel your frustration. I got pushed into a lot of different stuff this year not fishing where and how I wanted so I made the best of it. I did learn some stuff but didn't get on the spots I've had great success with in the past. One of the things I've learned fishing muskies, when things get tough don't experiment too much. Stay with the best spots and your highest confidence presentation for the conditions. Might only get one swing but at least I'm not skunked. Remember it's not about you, it's about the fish.
Title: Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
Post by: musky-man on Mar 09, 2019, 08:53 AM
Esox I had it doubled to help it from kinking. Tight lines!