Refill 1lb Propane Tank or Take 20lb along / & Mr Heater Big Buddy Question

[gasman707]

ive been refilling for a year now...and NEVER a problem. saves LOTS of money and who did you ever hear of getting in trouble for refilling tanks... how will they know anyway??!!! just my 2 cents. Rebel.

The propane in the 1lb cyl has two unique characteristics . 
1st,  its dryer that does not mean less water. It means it has hardly any other petroleum products (makes it cleaner to burn) in it compared to the propane delivered to your home or the company that fills your larger dot cyls.
2nd propane has no smell they add an oderant to let you know it's there. The oderant in the disposable non-refillable tanks is differant from the oderant  used in all other propane so it can be tested to see if it was refilled.
 Are they going to come busting in to your garage and arrest you? No,  but burn something down, cause property damage, or bodily harm and or death, yes you will be prosecuted under the laws regulating this.
I believe the fine is up to $500,000 and 5yrs, more if they can prove arson or negligent homicide.

[Bellybuster]

the odourant in the 1lbs bottles is indeed the same as the odourant in regular refillables (Ethyl Mercaptan)

[gasman707]

Note 2: The use of 1.0 pound of ethyl mercaptan, 1.0 pound of thiophane, or 1.4 pounds of amyl mercaptan per 10,000 gallons of liquefied petroleum gas shall be considered sufficient to meet the requirements of Sec. 173.315(b)(1). This note does not exclude the use of any other odorant in sufficient quantity to meet the requirements of Sec. 173.315(b)(1).

[mk_bovee]

i have the same problem with my big buddy in real cold temps.  when that happens i just bring the tank inside the shanty with me, making sure it is behind the heater or atleast 2 feet to the side of it.  that helps keep the temp of the gas high enuf to promote evaporation.

as to the question of weither or not it is worth filling the one pound tanks off the bulk  20 pounders, i say definately!      financially atleast it is.    for instance, where im from, a one pound cylinder costs 2.75-3.00 and a 20 pound cylinder costs 18.00       normally a 20 pounder is actually filled to a weight of 17.5 pounds of actual  propane.   the math of it is pretty simple             18 bottles x 2.75= 49.50 ( if ya bought new cylinders each time ya needed them)             OR.................17. 5 pounds  / 18 = .97 cents.    its a no brainer to me, i'll refill my own and save the money for the important things like beer and hot damn schnapps       LOL

[Tainterslayer]

Soooo.. when was the last time you guys have heard of some guy getting blown to bits because he refilled his propane cylinder?
No they aren't made to be refilled over and over and over. The metal is thin and rusting could eventually make them weak and the seals could eventually wear out too. I see nothing wrong with refilling them a few times.
I just think it's silly people think they magically become a fire hazard if you refill them once. If you're really that scared, what are you doing on a frozen lake? I'm sure you have a higher chance of falling through.

[Mainehazmt]

gee nobody says anything about filling 5lbers  off of your 100 lb tank  or 40 lb tanks (40 easier to turn upside down)....

[Rebelfisher]

Soooo.. when was the last time you guys have heard of some guy getting blown to bits because he refilled his propane cylinder?
No they aren't made to be refilled over and over and over. The metal is thin and rusting could eventually make them weak and the seals could eventually wear out too. I see nothing wrong with refilling them a few times.
I just think it's silly people think they magically become a fire hazard if you refill them once. If you're really that scared, what are you doing on a frozen lake? I'm sure you have a higher chance of falling through.

AMEN!

[gasman707]

Soooo.. when was the last time you guys have heard of some guy getting blown to bits because he refilled his propane cylinder?
No they aren't made to be refilled over and over and over. The metal is thin and rusting could eventually make them weak and the seals could eventually wear out too. I see nothing wrong with refilling them a few times.
I just think it's silly people think they magically become a fire hazard if you refill them once. If you're really that scared, what are you doing on a frozen lake? I'm sure you have a higher chance of falling through.

 You asked so here you go
 
 
 Suit alleges defective coupling caused fatal propane fire


2/27/2008 11:00 AM
By Michelle Massey, Texarkana Bureau

 
K-M Products MacCoupler
MARSHALL -- Gary Wayne Suggs, 51, was attempting to refill a propane container in a fifth-wheel trailer when a flash fire occurred, causing fatal injuries.

Gary's father, Billy Ray Suggs, alleges a defective coupling caused his son's death.

Billy Ray Suggs, individually and as estate representative, filed a product liability suit against K-M Products Inc. on Feb 25, 2008 in the Marshall Division of the Eastern District of Texas.

According to the original complaint, the deceased was attempting to refill a DOT-39, 1.02-pound propane cylinder from a 40-pound propane cylinder using a MacCoupler.

According to the K-M Products web site, the MacCoupler is the company's chief product, which it has been making for more than 20 years. It is used to fill 1 pound refillable propane cylinders with any 20 to 40 pound propane tank.

"It's easy and cost effective," the web site states. "Made of solid brass, the MacCoupler will last a lifetime and is a welcome addition to anyones camping gear, tool chest, or their RV or camper."

The web site includes downloadable instructions for proper use of the MacCoupler.

The plaintiff alleges K-M Products Inc. is liable because the coupler did not have sufficient, appropriate or securely affixed proper warning labels. Further, the plaintiff argues the defendant failed to use proper materials for the coupler and failed to adequately test or inspect the product and its components. The complaint states that the defendant knew the coupler was defectively designed and manufactured.

Suggs believes K-M Products is guilt of gross negligence and argues the company's conduct was heedless, reckless and with a conscious indifference to the welfare and safety of his son.

The plaintiff is seeking wrongful death damages for emotional pain, grief, and sorrow, and pecuniary losses including loss of care, maintenance, support, services, advice, counseling and losses by virtue of the destruction of the parent-child relationship. On behalf of the deceased, the plaintiff is seeking damages for pain and suffering, funeral and burial expenses.

Tyler attorneys John D. Sloan Jr. and J. Ryan Fowler of the Sloan, Bagley, Hatcher and Perry Law Firm and Kilgore attorney Thomas H. Brown are representing the plaintiff.

Judge T. John Ward is assigned to the litigation.


 
Remember DOT-39 is designated for disposable non-refillable cylinders, and their claiming their product is only for REFILLABLE CYLINDERS, good luck finding one

[Tainterslayer]

If one person has an accident, does that mean it's always unsafe? How do we know this guy wasn't careless? What was he doing refilling it IN a trailer? This guy doesn't sound too careful.
Do you stop filling your car gas tank? Do you stop talking on your mobile phone? Each of these situations have killed someone (yes a phone exploded and severed  a man's artery) If these propane products were that unsafe, trust me, they would be OFF the market. Yes everything has a risk. Fill you tank outside, not in an enclosed area like this doofus. Don't fill it around electrical equipment or someone smoking. Don't give the fuel a chance to ignite and it won't ignite. If the cylinder leaks when you're filling it, then stop immediately!!

[Bellybuster]

Ha!!!  IN the fifth wheel trailer. Can you say pilot light??
    Yes folks there is a human food chain and this feller was fairly low.

  What no one else is gonna tell you is that a good majority of accidents with propane are caused by careless handling by those that manufacture/ sell and handle gasses professionally. not by end users

[mako003]

      I use a fiberglass tank that I can see the level of fuel

 

[Mainehazmt]

      I use a fiberglass tank that I can see the level of fuel

 

I have the 11 lb fiberglass   great tank!

[gasman707]

2) "(yes it is illegal and I can prove it)"
     Please do so, we've been thru so man of these threads where people say this but no one has yet given any concete evidence to support it. We've seen much to the contary however. I would welcome someone in the definite "know" to bring this to light.

DOT-39 disposable cylinders are manufactured under DOT guidelines because they contain and allow the handling and transportation of a HAZARDOUS MATERIAL listed as UN1075 (United Nations listing number used all over the world for the easy identifcation of hazardous materials)

They are manufactured with a one time use valve.
That does not refer to the amount of times you connect and disconnect  your torch, heater, lantern, because in these situations only PROPANE VAPOR passes through the valve.
 It refers to the amount of times LIQUID PROPANE  is allowed to pass through the valve in order to fill container.

Here is a short list of just some of the regulations GOVERNING these cylinders due  too if I listed all, it would be overkill (and possibly crash the site)

 I excluded anything that dealt with COMMERCE so no one can say these do not pertain to a private individual, and went no where near the regs in the Homeland Security Act pertaining to acts of terrorism, (Did you know that by law if you are lying in a ditch alongside the road dying and I go by and see you I cannot stop and assist you because you might be a terrorist and setting a trap to steal my vehicle and use it as a weapon)

 (5) Registration by DOT is required of any individual to fill with Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) any DOT container of less than 200lbs. water capacity which comes under the jurisdiction of DOT (this is the only one I should have to post It says it all short and sweet, but going to use to separate different areas of info )

N.F.P.A.58
6.5.1- Liquid propane shall be transferred into containers, including containers mounted on vehicles, only outdoors or in structures specially designed for that purpose according to code
7.2.2.1 -Transfer of L.P.-Gas to and from a container shall be accomplished only by qualified individuals trained in proper handling and operating procedures meeting  the requirements of section 4.4 and in emergency response procedures
7.2.2.7- Containers shall be filled only after determination that they comply with the design, fabrication, inspection, marking, and requalification provisions of this code
7.2.2.8-“Single trip,” “non-refillable,” or “disposable” cylinders shall not be refilled with L.P.-Gas

(5) Registration by DOT is required of any individual to fill with Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) any DOT container of less than 200lbs. water capacity which comes under the jurisdiction of DOT

Subpart C—Specifications for cylinders
§178.65 Specification 39 non-reusable (non-refillable) cylinders



(i)(2)(viii)(A) For cylinders manufactured prior to October 1, 1996: “Federal law forbids transportation if refilled-penalty up to $25,000 fine and 5 years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 1809)” or “Federal law forbids transportation if refilled-penalty up to $500,000 fine and 5 years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 5124).”
(i)(2)(viii)(B) For cylinders manufactured on or after October 1, 1996: “Federal law forbids transportation if refilled-penalty up to $500,000 fine and 5 years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 5124).”

178.65 Specification 39 non-reusable (non-refillable) cylinders
(a) Type, size, service pressure, and test pressure. A DOT 39 cylinder is a seamless, welded, or brazed cylinder with a service pressure not to exceed 80 percent of the test pressure. Spherical pressure vessels are authorized and covered by references to cylinders in this specification. (1) Size limitation. Maximum water capacity may not exceed: (i) 55 pounds (1,526 cubic inches) for a service pressure of 500 p.s.i.g. or less(i) Markings. (1) The markings required by this section must be durable and waterproof. The requirements of Sec. 178.35(h) do not apply to this section. (2) Required markings are as follows: (i) DOT-39. (ii) NRC. (iii) The service pressure. (iv) The test pressure. (v) The registration number (M****) of the manufacturer. (vi) The lot number. (vii) The date of manufacture if the lot number does not establish the date of manufacture. (viii) With one of the following statements: (A) For cylinders manufactured prior to October 1, 1996: ``Federal law forbids transportation if refilled-penalty up to $25,000 fine and 5 years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 1809)'' or ``Federal law forbids transportation if refilled-penalty up to $500,000 fine and 5 years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 5124).'' [[Page 895]] (B) For cylinders manufactured on or after October 1, 1996: ``Federal law forbids transportation if refilled-penalty up to $500,000 fine and 5 years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 5124).'' (3) The markings required by paragraphs (i)(2)(i) through (i)(2)(v) of this section must be in numbers and letters at least \1/8\ inch high and displayed sequentially. For example: DOT-39 NRC 250/500 M1001. (4) No person may mark any cylinder with the specification identification ``DOT-39'' unless it was manufactured in compliance with the requirements of this section and its manufacturer has a registration number (M****) from the Associate Administrator. [Amdt. 178-114, 61 FR 25942, May 23, 1996, as amended at 65 FR 58631, Sept. 29, 2000; 66 FR 45389, Aug. 28, 2001; 67 FR 51654, Aug. 8, 2002; 68 FR 75748, 75749, Dec. 31, 2003]

 (5) Registration by DOT is required of any individual to fill with Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) any DOT container of less than 200lbs. water capacity which comes under the jurisdiction of  DOT


(g) No person may represent, mark, certify, sell, or offer a packaging or container as meeting the requirements of this subchapter governing its use in the transportation of a hazardous material  unless the packaging or container is manufactured, fabricated, marked, maintained, reconditioned, repaired, and retested in accordance with the applicable requirements of this subchapter. No person may represent, mark, certify, sell, or offer a packaging or container as meeting the requirements of an exemption, a special permit, approval, or registration issued under this subchapter or subchapter A of this chapter unless the packaging or container is manufactured, fabricated, marked, maintained, reconditioned, repaired, and retested in accordance with the applicable requirements of the exemption, special permit, approval, or registration issued under this subchapter or subchapter A of this chapter. The requirements of this paragraph apply whether or not the packaging or container is used or to be used for the transportation of a hazardous material.

 (5) Registration by DOT is required of any individual to fill with Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) any DOT container of less than 200lbs. water capacity which comes under the jurisdiction  of DOT
 
Below is a link that describes all the required markings on a cylinder that is allowed to be refilled DOT-39 disposable cylinders have no markings stamped permently into them as required in order to be refilled The reason is they can not be refilled
http://www.propanesafety.com/Resource%20Library/Gas%20Check/Gas%20Check%20Cross%20References/gc3.2.1.pdf

 (5) Registration by DOT is required of any individual to fill with Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) any DOT container of less than 200lbs. water capacity which comes under the jurisdiction of DOT


If you still doubt, call the manufacture of these cylinders and asked them, I did . The employee I talked to was dumbfounded  that any one would even try  to refill one. They also can prove that what I state here is true It’s where I got some of the info.

The cost of two these cylinders is less then I pay for a dozen medium minnows that may or may not catch enough fish for a meal yet 1 cyl will keep me warm for 8 hrs.
 I don’t understand all the posts on here about all the expensive electronics, augers, and shelters, and so on then the same posters want to save less then the cost of  a dozen minnows  and place not only themselves but possibly others in danger. 
It makes no sense .

[Bellybuster]

hey...that's more like it. Now things are getting useful.
     qualified persons to transfer liquid propane to containers is indeed enuff for me to say you are correct. It is indeed illegal to refill. Doesn't mean people are gonna stop doin it and highly unlkely any agency is was or ever will police it except at the commercial level.
   I'll give up on all the rest due to being tired of it all......you win, I wanna get back to fishin

   You say you don't understand why people do this?? Because risk vs reward is high. Is there a risk? yes. Is there a reward? yes. Here a 1lbs cylinder is touching $5 each at Wallyworld now. $13.99 if you by 3. As far a discussing electronics and costs of equipment etc, well not everyone out there has all the toys due to finances and even if they do it may be due to saving a few bucks here and there. My case

   I do really appreciate you posting something mre concete regarding legalties. It really is the first time I've seen anthing. Right under my face too,I should have picked up on that little detail. still doesn't change anything tho. people are still gonna do it.

   

[mako003]

   


      when I last looked I stopped at the hardware store picked up 2 pack of I lbs for 3 bucks so why wastes time turn on  the heat cut a hole and fish!!!!!
                                       after all thats why were here

[gillhog]

around here their 5.00 for 2. i went to menards and bought the fittings to make my own filler adapter. cost me about 13.00 .it should be elbowed so 20# bottle can be sat upsidedown and 1# bottle hanging off it right side up.

[SkeeterJeff]

I bought the refill adapter and after some trial and error I was able to refill the 1# tanks successfully.  I have a Mr. Heater Buddy, a Coleman SportCat and a couple of lanterns that I take depending on which FT I'm using.  (Scout = Sportcat & single mantle lantern, Yukon = Mr. Heater and double mantle lantern if needed)  I bought the 5# tank and hose to run the Mr Heater off of and it works fine.  Had the tank get 3/4 covered by snow last weekend and it kept on chugging away. 

The debate about refilling the 1# cylinders will continue.  I am not going to say anything that will end it.  Determine risk, decide if you are willing to accept it, and if so, manage the risks to reduce the chance for an accident or injury.  For me, both refilling and using a 5# tank works.

Jeff

[digger953]

   


      when I last looked I stopped at the hardware store picked up 2 pack of I lbs for 3 bucks so why wastes time turn on  the heat cut a hole and fish!!!!!
                                       after all thats why were here

were did you get a 2 pk for 3$$??
they caost like 5 or 6 $$

[gruntngrin]

Just filled 9 for the first time tonight.Wow thats easy and cheaper than the store. Whats the difference in filling them and someone filling your 20 pounder,not much. I have to refill the tank on my forktruck at work everyday not really any dif.

[Tainterslayer]

As long as you don't do it near open flames it shouldn't be very dangerous. Even if you have bad luck and some gas shoots out... big deal because you should be doing it OUTSIDE. And don't use the same tank for 5 years because they DO RUST. You don't want a rust hole blowing open while you are sitting in your flip over.

99% of all the bad things that happen in the world are because people are being careless. Just like people using the turkey deep fryers inside their garage or on their wood deck. If you prepare for the risks then you won't have problems.

[h2.0shaver]

wow this really sux. I just got the MacCoupler. The economical reasons are obvious.  Also it seems better as far as recycling to get more than 1 use out of each 1lber.  "Save the enviornment" is on the package. Why would they sell it if its too dangerous? On the back it says..........
Refilled cylinders not to be sold or transported in Commerce.

[WYIfish]

What's that Barny Fife line....."you know what happens next, Bluey!"

I have been told of a $50,000 fine for filling larger bottles with the old style valves, the new ones have a triangle like handle.   It costs about $25 for the valve replacement.

[Mainehazmt]

opd valves    but remember 40 lb and over are exempt  or "special use" smaller ones

[Tainterslayer]

What's that Barny Fife line....."you know what happens next, Bluey!"

I have been told of a $50,000 fine for filling larger bottles with the old style valves,

That's only directed at retail outfitters, right? Kind of like all the OSHA rules? It's a hazard to have a hammer with a broken handle but I could have a million of them at home and the rules still don't apply.

[WYIfish]

Yes, I bet your right!  The hammer is a very good example.  I have a few myself.  Old ladders is another one.
Thanks,

[kasilofchrisn]

I sometimes refill the 1# bottles myself. I do it outside and where there is no open flame or anything .
Sure you only get them 3/4 full or so but in Alaska they are way spendy to buy all those 1#ers.
If you are worried about the bottles rusting and such mark the date of first use on them in sharpie and discard the old ones every so often. Also helps to spray with soapy water or dip the threaded end in a bucket of water tpo check for leaks before you bring them inside.
CHRIS

[silvercliff_46]

I got a small Coleman Black Cat.  Works great, one pound bottle lasts between six and seven hours on high.  Keeps the chill off late season bow hunting in my pop-up, and in my little Clam Jr. I live in Northern Wi. close to the U.P.

I also have a Big Buddy.  It also works great, too great for my pop-up and little Clam Jr. but it heats my 12X20 uninsulated work shed just fine.

I also refill 1 lb. bottles, and the first day I see road blocks set up checking my propane bottles I will quit doing it. (not really, I'll just get sneaky about it.)

All my stuff is almost new so that may be why they work good.

[Superpole]

Just ordered a 5 pound LP tank for ice fishing.  Hope this will be the best of both worlds.  Tired of the tanks that leak, freezing fingers and tanks that won't fill completely.  Might be some extra weight and $100 for the tank and hose but the garage/porch and shed won't have green tanks everywhere anymore. 

[Mainehazmt]

fill the 5 lber from your 20 lber

[silvercliff_46]

fill the 5 lber from your 20 lber

How do you do that?