VT Deer

[woodab17]

If I have learned anything from ice fishing it is: what may have been successful yesterday may not be today!


And I am pretty sure if I am seeing deer on large tracks of public land in the NEK I could find a few in K2.

[Augen4Hawgs]

Key word( FEW! )Mr Benoit .....How many days will it take?

[woodab17]

If hunting is down how do you explain the harvest numbers?



and in no way am I claiming to be a benoit.

But I have found deer in Northern VT, Northern ME, and Southern VT, yes it does take time but with effort I haven't had a problem.

[Augen4Hawgs]

i am not big on harvest numbers . i believe those can be inflated..but who knows...k2 area is bad.its good someone is seeing does.

[finlessbrown]

If I have learned anything from ice fishing it is: what may have been successful yesterday may not be today!


And I am pretty sure if I am seeing deer on large tracks of public land in the NEK I could find a few in K2.

i live in k2 and i have seen more deer everywhere but here. there is a 600 acre area that i hunt in wells that used to be loaded and since no logging has been done in years it is all way to over grown. the same with danby area, over-grown

[hunter13]

same here finlessbrown  i hunt on nature concervancy land and it is all grown up  no under brush at all  i hunted all black powder season and saw one deer till the last day i saw  a whopping 7  deer  lol


hunter13

[keva]

This is a great thread, it is nice to see everyone discussing an issue. I am not from Vermont, but can point a few things out regarding deer management. First off, northern nightmare seems really knowledgeable. Also, I would be careful with antler restrictions. If there is a point restriction it would have to be pretty low as not all bucks grow a lot of points, so some bucks would never be legal. If they say no spikes, they will also be letting the bucks which are likely to be genetically inferior(at least concerning antler growth) live long enough to be doing more breeding, while the bucks growing decent racks are being killed off. Good habitat is essential, so pressure to log would be fantastic. You should also promote the planting of nut bearing trees as this will provide food throughout the years. Old growth can be great for deer, however it must consist of plants which provide food. Attend those meetings also. At least get a lot of concerned hunters to email f&w and demand that they make them more accessible. From all the numbers being posted, it does not seem as though your doe tags have much to do with the issue. Maybe VT ought to divide their management areas up better and apply more strict regulations to certain areas?

[iceman55]

I don,t know how old you are but the num the f and w give you is a three year avg. try 30 yr. avg. Please tell us where you hunt in the nek I've been on a few moose hunts up there my cousin lives in E. Charleston we would like to get in on all them deer. I hunted Maine on the first week saw a nice racker first day.Minus doe,s equals how many bucks These days I call them sighting if you go there I probably saw 80 to 100 easily could of killed 12 doe's during muzzle loading and maybe a few more if the one's that they were with stuck around for the funeral. same 4 over and over and over

[woodab17]

I don,t know how old you are but the num the f and w give you is a three year avg. try 30 yr. avg. Please tell us where you hunt in the nek I've been on a few moose hunts up there my cousin lives in E. Charleston we would like to get in on all them deer.

Go find the deer the same way I did.............a lot of walking.

[mroy44]

Go find the deer the same way I did.............a lot of walking.

You have to walk the land you hunt a lot to understand it, and you have to put in MANY hours of scouting to know where the deer are.  Hunters cannot be lazy in this state!!  We dont live in texas where you dont even have to hunt its just sit one night and shoot.

[Leafmountain10]

We have 150 acres in Land Use and are bummed to see neighboring land owners starting to post their land.   They are all "new" to the area and as soon as they close... run out will yellow signs.  Just sucks to see this "its Mine!!" attitude.

Am I pumped to run into other hunters on our land?  No, but we are fortunate to have so much huntable land in the area where some hunting pressure is actually good.

By the same token ... our  has a dairy farm in the NEK and we have started posting it ..... why?  We have many fields that are easily accessed by road hunters.  Very sad to push a deer out of the woods to a guys sitting on the road listening to the radio.  Another key factor is the snowball effect ..... we are one of the last large properties to post land and more and more hunters were converging on our property over the years.  JACKING ... don't get me started.  OK ... Here I go.... We have to UP the consequences for F&G laws now!  I don't dare to guess how many deer have been shot at night on our farm over the years.  Its the same families and same mentalities and when they get caught ... its a slap on the wrist. We've had so many deer poached on our property over the years I don't dare to guess on the #  I bet its something like 1 out of 100 violations are caught ... prob. less.  Love to see more public humiliation involved ie: pictures in the paper not to mention higher fines.  I just don't buy the feed the family thing.  Those days are gone and the guys jacking are the ones breaking other laws from my what I see.  At least with our land posted now we will have a better idea and pay closer attention to gun shots and truck license plates.

I don't want Vermont to turn into Texas where you have to have $ to enjoy the outdoors. 

What can we do as landowners and non-landowners alike?
-more incentives for landowners to keep land open and not posted (especially out of state land owners)
-more habitat improvement incentives  (free or discounted  seed, machine use, forester serv etc for landowners)
-more public land bought by the state
-better access to remote areas of the state ie:Essex Co. land along with habitat improvement for deer there

Just some idea a ramblings

[vermonner]

I, too, am in the suspicion camp for harvest numbers from F&W <--their budget depends on consumption dollars. 
Ever since the 150,000 deer herd size of 2000, 2001, 2002 etc. I don't trust #'s from F&W.  They have an agenda.

I have also noticed that since antler restrictions were put in place and hunters are more involved in management, data comes sooner.  Free Press published our kill at 15K and change, nominal increase this year, in late December.  Used to be we waited til February (remember that?, anyone?) or so to get those numbers.  Glad to see the sped up tallying process and they deliver raw data instead of "projected kill" numbers etc etc etc.  Those numbers used to be crazier than a conversation with an ex girlfriend.  You'd get 4 preliminary projections between December and March, which would constantly adjust,  so when the data was finally released, you had no bearing on numbers.  Was like listening to a pitch man.  I propose the following:

--Deer herd size assessment by a QDM firm NOT involved with F&W
--Doe season in October, at end of bow season, coupla days or so, fewer tags than currently allotted by 30%
--Stronger Antler restrictions (6 points and up, drastic times = drastic measures) for 2-3 years
--Habitat initiatives promoting seccessional (succesional?) growth in 10-20 acre swaths on any public land per 150 acres, considering erosion control and basic land mgmt priniciples if the forest may be considered 'mature'

I believe if we don't  take a more comprehensive approach, our herd will stagnate at 90,000-110,000 deer, which means suboptimal hunting.

[mempfree]

I live in the NEK, and with the Posting, Jacking, in my area, and no Law Enforcement that have the guts, to do anything about it.  There are always, so excuse, as why they can't come and investigate it?  The sad thing is, I got a young Game Warden, just down the road from me, who now sits behind a desk in St. Johnsbury.  He hurt his arm, a couple of years ago, and what does the Fish and Game Dept do?  They made him a Lt!  He has only been a Game Warden for 12 years.  There was a local article, in our local paper, with him saying, oh, I always wanted to be a Game Warden?  Well, why are you sitting behind a desk, and computer all day?  I want to see, the ones who they catch, there names and pictures in the papers.  Like all the rest of people, arrested for something.  They did catch a couple in Barnet, Vermont.  Its on the Vermont Fish and Game Website, but one couple?  In this whole State?  Boy, I just hope, this new F&G Commish, does something, as I feel where I live, its not called Hunting anymore. 

[Zorros shack]

The main way to find deer I guess is to walk to find them unless there is a heavily used run.

[Augen4Hawgs]

Walked alot during scouting looking for sign ! Three days I spent in the k2 Birdseye area . jumped one deer. was not a doe....scouted in tinmouth a couple days saw one doe. I think it would take  a lot of days walking to find any numbers in this area. maybe more on heavly posted land.Did see a couple bucks.....its just not well balanced....Maybe a new commisioner will be good! We can only hope...some forest management and more logging....I did hunt one other zone west of rte 4..off 22a and didnt see many does their either. k2 has really been hammered as far as does during black powder . I think this is the biggest reason for not seeing many............Guess I need to get back to Ice fishing or think about the sportsman show. anybody going to the sportsman show?

[iceman55]

Go find the deer the same way I did.............a lot of walking.

I don't start hunting until I'm a mile off the rd. I don't use tree stands I don't use cover scent just wind direction most years I can kill a deer in three days even new areas and I DON"T USE ATV S and I Scout more most people I know I have one state record muzzle loader buck 13 pt. shot with round ball I usually start walking sept 1 and don't stop till middle dec. hunt three states. Not bad for being 56 yrs. old oh ya did concrete work for 35 yrs. and still doing it so I think I put my time in and totaly against road hunting and hope I can do it alot longer.

[Bailbuster]

Numbers are just that numbers ,the kill was 23% down one week and 5% up the next!! Thats what numbers are.

[Leafmountain10]

Totally understand that we are way understaffed with Game Wardens and believe just like any profession there are different degrees in work performance. Up until recently thought the authorities wanted all the help they can get to catch some of these people.  No the case. From my earlier post with the deer I found shot and stashed I wanted to give my local warden a chance to at least call me to say "hey there's not a lot I can do to catch these people but thanks for calling...."  NOTHING... instead I see his truck parked at R&L archery in Barre all the time, shooting the bull with the guys who work there.

I know there was a guy with a "history" caught shooting a deer from his truck on the River Rd in Orleans during rifle season.  Have yet to see anything in the papers about it and hope the GWi's follow through on something in this case.

After going to the Deer and Moose meeting in Montpelier last week feel that there must be better ways to get our concerns heard.  Maybe contacting your local F&G Board member? 

Another thing to mention is during the meeting about the changes to the season for deer and moose .... it was brought up that in March there are other public meetings for all Deer management concerns and question we may have as hunters.  These may be better forums to speak our minds about F&G laws, penalties, as well as other factors to better manage the deer heard in out state.

[woodab17]

I had a similar experience.  Fishing the Battenkill in Arlington which is a catch and release zone I see a guy catch a beautiful 22'' brown with his young son.  I noticed immediately he was going to keep the fish so I walked over and told him that was a great fish and asked what he planned on doing with it.  He told me he was going to eat it for dinner.  So I kindly informed him this was a catch and release zone and the fishing has been getting worse and worse the last few years.  He told me to mind my own business to which I replied "you are really teaching your son some good morals here."  I immediately contacted a game warden who told me he was too far away to get there even though I had given him the license plate number from the guys car. 

A week later I get a call from the same game warden saying that after he looked into it this guy had a history, (BIG SURPRISE THERE MORON), and he wanted to pursue pressing charges.  I told him I thought it was ridiculous that the only reason he was going to go after the guy was that he had a history and not the fact that he was breaking a law.  I mean if you rob a bank for the first time are they just going to let it slide?!? 

Long story short I filled out an affidavit and then never heard back from the warden again, I am assuming nothing was done.

I don't know enough about our game wardens in this state or even my county to really give an opinion either way but I do know that one experience really left a sour taste in my mouth.

[freaknasty7]

i dont believe that that numbers are down or the deer just arent around anymore, i feel like hunters are getting lazier and lazier, year after year. if you lace up your boots and burn a little shoe leather you can find the deer. i have seen more deer in the past 3 years of hunting then i ever have. you just have to find the deer. 90% of the time, you wont find deer 200 yards off the road or even a 1/4 mile off the road and thats why most hunters say there arent any deer is because they are to lazy or to scared to venture off into the wilderness. put on the miles and find the deer. you might be surprised as to what you find.

[Leafmountain10]

Since the moose have really come on the scene I feel that they have certainly pushed deer out of some areas. 


We started seeing moose at our camp in numbers in the mid 90's.  Soon afterward, the deer sightings started going down ... down ...down.   With the limited food supply it must be close to impossible to keep populations from effecting each other?

[iceman55]

I see that happen here in the last 20 yrs. Now the moose have over browsed the area so much they are dying off and the deer no. dropped drastically. The logging stopped to.

[Leafmountain10]

Logging is fantastic for deer and moose habitat.  There is a huge track of land near us owned by an outfit out of NH.  Last winter they went in and cut some nice 200 yard by 50 or so, swaths as well as 10 acre+/- squares.  I'm hopeful it will have a positive effect on the "big woods" deer and moose in the area.

[Grnmtn]

Seems like from what I am hearing from guys who spoke with one of the Bio guys at the Yankee C that the  Logging companies have the ear of the Commision and the bio guys. They say there are too many deer STILL? Could anyone say there is a conflict of interest.

Now I agree that there are deer to be had, but you sure have to work alot harder then you had to even a few years ago. The pattern we found this year that was key was... oak flats that butt up with Hemlock bedding areas with water near by.

I am all for the Archery Moose hunting as I am a bowhunter thru and thru.

[vermonner]

Logging is fantastic for deer and moose habitat.  There is a huge track of land near us owned by an outfit out of NH.  Last winter they went in and cut some nice 200 yard by 50 or so, swaths as well as 10 acre+/- squares.  I'm hopeful it will have a positive effect on the "big woods" deer and moose in the area.

Your hope is well placed.  My prediction:  Numbers will spike in 2 to 3 years and it will be a GREAT place to hunt during the rut.

[BCinVT]

Great to see all the different opinions in this thread.Gotta agree with some that say you have to put yout time in to be successful,but I'd give anything to go back to the amount of land and the numbers of deer we would see when I was a kid in the early 70's.I know times have to change,but I sometimes(OK most times) feel the state is just selling the herd out for the $.I live in and hunt mostly in C,and have been fortunate enough to take a deer most years,but I still think the numbers have really dropped in this area.I own 68acres that butt up to thousands of acres of state and paper co. land,and am in the woods alot,and there just isn't the sign there used to be.
I also don't know if it's fair to tell someone that only gets to hunt a few days a year that they can't shoot that spike,or four,or even 6.Deer hunting should be about the hunt,not the antlers.Like someone else said,this isn't Texas or Ohio etc.,it's VT.,and most VTers I know are about putting meat in the freezer.Yeah,yeah,I know it's always nice to have a crack at a monster,but that should be a plus,not the goal.Everyone should decide for themselves,but I feel they should be the one to decide.

[ifslob28]

I agree BC

[Zorros shack]

Your hope is well placed.  My prediction:  Numbers will spike in 2 to 3 years and it will be a GREAT place to hunt during the rut.

I like that, I thought of sending F&W a e mail about the deer and what hunters and outdoorsmen think. If you guys want here is the e mail I started and add on what you would like. Or we do a petition, I like the email dont know how to do a online petition.

To whom it may concern,
I was looking and had heard that many Vermont hunters and non residents that hunt there are not happy about deer age and number. The problem is that lot's of people would not are barely see any deer and if so small young deer during the season. Any many people were concerned with this and I was concerned too. People don't know how we can help with the deer numbers and If F&G can do anything. I also say the antler restrictions you put on in 2005 and that hopefully help.

[vermonner]

It's a start
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20110120/NEWS07/101200324/Two-men-cited-with-jacking-deer

[Weedmaster]

i dont believe that that numbers are down or the deer just arent around anymore, i feel like hunters are getting lazier and lazier, year after year. if you lace up your boots and burn a little shoe leather you can find the deer. i have seen more deer in the past 3 years of hunting then i ever have. you just have to find the deer. 90% of the time, you wont find deer 200 yards off the road or even a 1/4 mile off the road and thats why most hunters say there arent any deer is because they are to lazy or to scared to venture off into the wilderness. put on the miles and find the deer. you might be surprised as to what you find.

To be sure a good number of hunters fall into this category but, I know a lot of hardcore hunters including myself who put in mega hours and miles and came away with little or nothing to show for it and couldn't help but think something is really wrong! I think coyotes are hammering the fawns and population/harvest numbers are a joke. Like Bailbuster said down 23% one week up the next what a come back!