IceShanty.com's Ice Fishing Community
Vermont => Ice Fishing Vermont => Topic started by: tench on Jan 15, 2017, 03:07 PM
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Figured by this late in the season we'd have at least one thread about our favorite topics! Might as well combine them right? ;D
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I'll put in my $.002 ban commercial fishing... our waters cannot support it. If you want to fish commercially move to the coast.. just my opinion.. :o
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I'll put in my $.002 ban commercial fishing... our waters cannot support it. If you want to fish commercially move to the coast.. just my opinion.. :o
I can't agree more. I think it is just absolutely absurd. Just imagine the quality of our fisheries if we could do away with commercial fishing. And with that, destroy all of the cormorants! They don't belong here and they gorge on perch and panfish. And, it's just silly how the state releases stocked fish in Champlain and immediately have the cormorants decimate them within hours.
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I completely agree that cormorant hunting should be legal. In my mind they are no different than mergansers and you can shoot 5 of them on top of your daily bag limit. The destructive little buggers just devour fish and kill vegetation with their toxic feces.
As far as commercial fishing goes, I think that white perch are the only species that should be allowed to be sold on the market. My reason for this thought being that they are invasive and would be nearly impossible to over fish. Other than that, anglers should only keep what they plan on cleaning and eating themselves. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like once you turn fishing into a business, it removes all sense of ethics and pretty soon, every fish that is caught is thrown in the pail.
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I'll put in my $.002 ban commercial fishing... our waters cannot support it. If you want to fish commercially move to the coast.. just my opinion.. :o
x2
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This new law their trying to push through will 1. List crappie as a gamefish instead of a panfish and probably lower the daily limit and 2. In order to sell fish you need to buy a 75.00 license
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if they start charging for a commercial license I will file fishing as a biz and write off everything possible (mileage meals gear bait fees etc) and operate at a major LOSS. which will then help offset my taxes overall. decades of commercial fishing is what has helped make champlain the great fishery that it is today. without it the perch population would be like what it is in many lake and ponds, overpopulated stunted fish that nobody wants. it is a harvest like anything else. what it will create a black market and drive fish prices up, and one person will be the license holder for many. A fee is not going to help anything. the state should stay out of it we are taxed enough. people in urban areas and that dont have the opportunity to fish are ones consuming the fish. let it be.
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This new law their trying to push through will 1. List crappie as a gamefish instead of a panfish and probably lower the daily limit and 2. In order to sell fish you need to buy a 75.00 license
Already tried the first and it failed. They're trying again? Sellers license might help but some commercial guys will cover that cost in 1 day.
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I fish for the fun of it and if I make enough to cover my gas I call it a good day but no way in hell will I pay to sell fish sorry. And yeah I guess they are Steve martell at bayside bait and tackle has a petition form in his store about it
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if they start charging for a commercial license I will file fishing as a biz and write off everything possible (mileage meals gear bait fees etc) and operate at a major LOSS. which will then help offset my taxes overall. decades of commercial fishing is what has helped make champlain the great fishery that it is today. without it the perch population would be like what it is in many lake and ponds, overpopulated stunted fish that nobody wants. it is a harvest like anything else. what it will create a black market and drive fish prices up, and one person will be the license holder for many. A fee is not going to help anything. the state should stay out of it we are taxed enough. people in urban areas and that dont have the opportunity to fish are ones consuming the fish. let it be.
good idea ;D
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I'd be happy to see a season on cormorants. I don't necessarily need to see them wiped out, but they need a predator to reduce their numbers. Watching their flocks, containing a few hundred, or more birds sweep down on a bay and work it, like a trawling net from end to end, all day long is maddening, to say the least.
I mean they had what, two mute swans on Arrowhead lake and they took them out, but thousands of cormorants invading the state from April through September isn't an issue for them?
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+2 on that idea.i am recently retired.
One of my plans was to sell some fish to offset
Gas and bait costs.this state is absurd with how they
Overtax the residents. 4th highest in the U.S.
My wife and i were thinking about south carolina.
For what you buy here in vt for 250k you can get
For 150k and the taxes are like 900 a year.
Registration,restaurants,(no rooms and meals tax)
Licences,(free st park access)..all much cheaper.
They dont tax social sec or your pension income.
No ice fishing.but i have a boat.and its 75 degrees
At jocasse lake today....:)
How about a commercial mkt on cormorants and
Dump chickens?? Pet food??fertilzer??..ha!! Fun to
Think about but it will never happen.
If the state had more of a fishing lobby in montpiler
Like the cattleman in montana.the feds introduced
Wolves there.they were put on the endsngered species
List.when the poulation became stable the feds said.
Ok montana you can now manage the population.
The state opened up the season similar to what we
Have for coyotes here in vt.thats some clout there.
The feds of course took back mangement responsibilities..;)
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It seems like every year a few people like to blame commercial fishing when they experience a tough bite or can't find fish. Panfish are prolific! We don't have a shortage of panfish in Vermont, and the commercial anglers aren't catching them all. If they were, they wouldn't be able to fill buckets....year after year.
For the record, I haven't sold a single fish this year. I've been ice fishing 10 times and have only kept fish twice.
With all that in mind, I do try to be careful not to give out locations online. I don't care if people go out and commercial fish, but I'm certainly not going to announce a hot spot in a venue that reaches literally millions of people! No need to make it easy. Go out there and put in the time and you can find fish. If you do the work and keep it legal, I have no problems with what you catch and keep or catch and sell.
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white perch?
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/9/8/4/8/9/7/webimg/932653346_o.jpg)
fill buckets!
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/9/8/4/8/9/7/webimg/932653373_o.jpg)
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white perch?
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/9/8/4/8/9/7/webimg/932653373_o.jpg)
You went forward in time! Where will they be on January 20???? ;D ;D
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thats how I catch them all, time travel.
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Well clearly it works ;D
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There is only one way to solve commercial fishing on lake champlain. Put a limit on perch and other species that can't sustain it. I think 75-100 perch a day is perfectly fine for one persons dinning table. With gas and bait costs you don't even really make enough money to say so unless you are retired and don't need extra money. Another theory is a commercial fishing license that almost every state has and bigger length requirement's to sell fish.
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Oh boy now you've done it showing them buckets full of whites
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thats how I catch them all, time travel.
Pm me with the winning powerball numbers for that
Week....thx
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Pm me with the winning powerball numbers for that
Week....thx
:clap: :clap:
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I'm not really sure why banning "commercial" fishing is even a subject of conversation in regard to Champlain, especially in regard to perch, and especially invasive white perch. There is no shortage of either. The lake is so big, they lay so many eggs, and grow so fast that their populations are more controlled by food available than current commercial fishing hauls. It's not like folks are out there bottom-trawling the lake.
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Actually perch don't grow that quickly. 4-5 years depending feed, until they're 9".
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I'm not really sure why banning "commercial" fishing is even a subject of conversation in regard to Champlain, especially in regard to perch, and especially invasive white perch. There is no shortage of either. The lake is so big, they lay so many eggs, and grow so fast that their populations are more controlled by food available than current commercial fishing hauls. It's not like folks are out there bottom-trawling the lake.
Our inland lakes can't take it.
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I don't think an outright ban on it is necessary, the creel limits on certain more sensitive water bodies could be tightened in order to protect those and motivate the commercial fishers toward ones that can support their activities.
There are some former trout ponds that'd benefit from a bit of overfishing of perch, bass and pickerel in the state.
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Our inland lakes can't take it.
Yeah, different story there of course. But on Champ?
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I am a big fan of the idea of there being some oversight on the commercial fishing. I will admit that I have in fact spoken to people at FW, and my local state reps during the recent campaign season and advocated them overseeing and requiring some sort of special license. the commercial fishing in the state has been a free for all. There is nobody tracking catch rates, and where the fish are harvested.The argument that it is a big lake and we can''t have an impact is one that lacks historical review of reality. We have major impacts on our surroundings and even small things can make a huge difference. While commercial fishing on Champlain scale may not be enough to hurt the lake, it may well be, and odds are that people are not just selling from Champ, as other places in eastern VT buy perch as well. I think a good step would be to do the same licence fee, but require those selling to get a free stamp on the license, then require buyers to track the purchase date, amount LB and price paid, sellers name, and catch location for all sales, and require the seller to log the same info. It would make sense to me that with this exploratory data that would cost nothing more than a few minutes of an anglers time, the sate could get an understanding of what the scale is. They could use this to make decisions like they do with the deer harvest, with management areas and quota's. This is ignoring the commercial aspect that people are making an untaxed living off of this. I am sure that is not many people, but if you see some of the posts on the Facebook ice fishing group some make it seem very lucrative.
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To be perfectly honest, I can't wait to get up to Champlain and pound on some perch, whites and yellows. I'll sell every one I catch.
Nice bucket bootstrap if there was more than 3" of ice I'd be drilling holes right there with you!
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One thing that is easy for us outdoorsmen to not consider when facing/promoting potential law change is this...
How is this law going to be enforceable?
If you were to only allow commercial fishing on Lake Champlain. How would you enforce and/or insure that the fish being brought to market were from Champlain and not an inland body of water???
I sure as heck wouldn't want to rely on the honor system.
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I agree that it becomes a tough game to play, but we at least need on some level to know what is happening and go from there. The cost of requiring a special stamp and sellers and buyers to track and report their hauls would be minimal and the data could be used to make a logical and well founded policy, instead of the current rules.
I Do think that charging for the special license in the first few years in a money grab by the state, and that like the duck surveys we could get a lot of info on catches if they were reported, but that at least at first it should be free, as charging would in fact skew the data by reducing the number of people doing it.
Hell I would even be in favor of providing the info on catches for non-commercial fisherman on a voluntary basis. It would make me a better fisherman to track date and amounts caught and location. Could use the data to find patterns and catch more fish.
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Oh yes. We certainly need more regulation and more government oversight! That's ALWAYS a good idea.
The license idea has already been studied and rejected by the state in the past. The study showed that the state would lose money, so they scrapped it.
You can't fish out Champlain with rods and reels. The inland lakes already have limits in place.
If I have to deal with the hang wringing and the whining about commercial fishing, the I might as well add my 2 cents. >:(
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Can somebody that's in favor of this change please explain why? That's the part I don't understand. Do we have a problem with the panfish population in Vermont? Is that the issue?
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Now I have to chime in. If you have ever sold or traded a pound fish for anything you would labeled a Commercial Angler with the States proposal. I f you are KID that doesn't need a license to fish you would still need a commercial angler tag to sell fish.
Another thought I have on this is if you have fished any kind of a fishing tournament or derby like it or not you are a Commercial angler.
The State has been receiving data from fish buyer's every since they put the buyer's license in place but has failed to do anything with that data.
One thing I know for sure is ALL fishermen are liars except for you and me and I am nit so sure about you so for the state to think that they are going to get any accurate data from fishermen is ridiculous.
The selling and trading of hook and line caught fishing goes back century's there are records of Ethan Allen trading Wagons Salmon for gun powder when he settled here the Champlain fishery is strong and healthy any biologist you talk to will tell you that we can not hurt the Yellow Perch population with hook and line fishing. There is no Biologic reason for any of these rule changes.
As Sportsmen instead of fighting amongst each other over what we choose to fish or what we choose to do with them . We would be much better served to work together to clean up our Lakes and Ponds and get Cormorant control back on track study's have shown that they eat 1.5 to 5 million pounds of fish per year out of Lake Champlain and as much as 75% of that is Yellow Perch 3 to 10 time more than the Commercial harvest.
I also saw the word Ethics used most Commercial anglers I know have plenty of Ethics it seems that there are a few bad apples ( Commercial and none Commercial anglers ) that don't have any Ethics. The greatest saying I hear is its a free Lake I can fish where ever I want. Well that doesn't make it right the State forest is free to hunt where ever you want but most people wouldn't walk up and sit down 10 feet from you while you where Deer Hunting and say its a free forest I'm going to sit right here and hunt.
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Oh yes. We certainly need more regulation and more government oversight! That's ALWAYS a good idea.
The license idea has already been studied and rejected by the state in the past. The study showed that the state would lose money, so they scrapped it.
You can't fish out Champlain with rods and reels. The inland lakes already have limits in place.
If I have to deal with the hang wringing and the whining about commercial fishing, the I might as well add my 2 cents. >:(
Agree Xs 2 Enough with government regulation period!
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There is no data to support that humans can't fish out the lakes, the reality is that we have done that with species (Salmon, Sturgeon, Muskie, Sauger, Walleye, etc.) before on the lake, some of these were environmental, but fishing pressure did not help the problem. Saying that hook and line fishing cannot impact the population is just as false as trying to argue that humans don't play a role in our climate. We are apex predators with tools that give us the unique ability to effect change in our realm.
While it is possible that the level of fishing currently happening is not causing a negative impact, there is no data to make an informed decision. I have only sold fish one time, but fish with a person who sells his catch each time we fish, not large scale, or even enough to pay for the bait, but there is no question of where the fish were caught. There is no real data being gathered to enable a proper study. The proper management of our lakes and streams is multi-prong. Yes we need to control cormorants, and lamprey, yes we need to get runoff and water quality in check, but we also need to take responsibility for our own actions, and harvest as needed in a sustainable manner. This IMO could/should mean quotas/annual max commercial harvest on native fish, and bounties on non-native species.
I guess I don't see the harm in the state trying to at least get an idea of who is fishing commercially, but like I said I think it should be free and as a method to study the impact. And yes fisherman fib, that is why you would have the buyers and sellers both report.
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I almost forgot to mention driving on the ice, giving out spots, and bait laws in this thread! ;D
Lots of good conversation happening though! :tipup:
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Of course humans have an impact on the waters they fish... On Champlain, probably the biggest impact currently comes from all the dams blocking spawning habitat, and poor water quality. This is why it's almost impossible to find a brook trout in Champlain, and salmon are pretty much all stocked these days. Pan fish on the other hand are far more resilient. When the salmon population crashed, it was pretty obvious to anyone with a fishing pole. With perch however, they have been fished continuously since the white man came, and probably before that too, and there's no evidence that their populations are crashing. There's just so many of them out there that hook and line "commercial" fishing barely makes a dent in the population. I don't think we need to tag every perch in the lake to know that. Harvests are robust, year after year. Maybe when I can't consistently fill a bucket in shallow water in April each day, I will start to worry, but we are miles away from that. There's a reason the state doesn't stock perch... It's not necessary. As for paying for requiring a "commercial" license to fish, I think that's a solution in search of a problem at this point. We already pay the state for the right to fish at all, through a "fishing license", and much of that money goes to stocking more sensitive species. I'm open to changing my mind should a problem arise, but there's no evidence that we're even close to that point. Oh, and what about the invasive white perch? Should you need a special permit to catch and sell those?
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Seems though I read somewhere about someone saying white perch stock up in the bays late winter and then follow the walleye up the rivers and eat all the eggs? Wonder what would happen if we put regulations on commercially fishing champlain and cut the people targeting and selling these fish in half? What would happen to the white perch population, AND THEN IN TURN what would happen to other more sensitive fish in the lake? I bet an exploding white perch population would decimate other fish species numbers in the lake faster then commercial fishing would.
Also if the state were to institute some sort of commercial fishing and actually enforce it, and every commercial fisherman would have to fill out yearly paper work, licensed sent out, buyers reporting back to the state on who's selling, back checking those people. Jeesh this state would have to add another division to the Vermont fish and wildlife, probably have to employee 30-40 additional people. Guess who'll pay for that additional 1.6 million dollars in salary? Yep just increase our taxes again
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The amount of fish the cormorants eat (mainly yellow perch) is astounding. I fully support cormorant hunting for population control.
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my arms hurt from hauling a those white perch yesterday. I think I have a case of "perch elbow" going to have to file a claim with my workers comp. ;D
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my arms hurt from hauling a those white perch yesterday. I think I have a case of "perch elbow" going to have to file a claim with my workers comp. ;D
Have you seen the "Smitty Sled" thread in the equipment section? A man like you ought to have at least one of these capable of carrying a half dozen buckets or totes ;D ;D
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The Smitty Sled is the best thing ever. I just made one the other day. I couldn't believe the difference. Here is a picture of my girlfriend pulling my 180 lb. sled. http://https://goo.gl/photos/kHgd7SjBqQKSZ4zAA (https://goo.gl/photos/kHgd7SjBqQKSZ4zAA) She pulled it with no effort for 1/3 of a mile.
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The Smitty Sled is the best thing ever. I just made one the other day. I couldn't believe the difference. Here is a picture of my girlfriend pulling my 180 lb. sled. http://https://goo.gl/photos/kHgd7SjBqQKSZ4zAA (https://goo.gl/photos/kHgd7SjBqQKSZ4zAA) She pulled it with no effort for 1/3 of a mile.
Whew! Making me feel a lot better about the weight of the box I just built for my Smitty....I think I came in less than 180#, loaded, but not by much! ;D
(https://s19.postimg.cc/qneyavd2r/fishbox2.jpg) (https://postimage.org)image upload no limit (https://postimage.org/)
Tench: How we doing with adding some more variety to your thread?? ;D
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If things slow down , I remember a few other threads from past years that got people fired up! 😎 how about we organize an Ice Shanty White Perch event. Bootstrap Guide Service can get us in a good spot and we can reduce the population of white perch and have a good time. Fill a few Smitty Sleds with perch and everyone goes home happy.
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If things slow down , I remember a few other threads from past years that got people fired up! 😎 how about we organize an Ice Shanty White Perch event. Bootstrap Guide Service can get us in a good spot and we can reduce the population of white perch and have a good time. Fill a few Smitty Sleds with perch and everyone goes home happy.
And don't forget the ice crawlers!! ;D ;D
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good idea ;D
If you do that for too many years the IRS will operate you at a loss. I know a few rod and reel commercial striper guys that were hemmed up after several years of operation at a net loss...
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Don't use a net you can't lose it! ;D
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Don't use a net you can't lose it! ;D
This here is one of the brighter bulbs on the string, ayup and we're proud of him ;D ;D
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One thing that amazes me is that the commercial fishermen don't complain about there catches and if they thought there was a problem with the fish population they would be complaining but they don't when they have a bad day they just get up the next day and keep trying new spots until they find fish that want to bite it seems work pretty good for us instead of getting on the computer and complaining there no fish we go fishing all the time (SOME OF YOU SHOULD TRY IT)
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Panfish hauler,
You make some excellent points...I could not agree more with your posts.
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From a historical perspective I would say that panfish hauler is completely wrong. Commercial fishers and hunters are the last to admit there is a problem, they will continue to exploit a resource until it is gone, less people will do it as the hauls decrease, but they won't be the first ones lining up asking the state to shut them down for sure. It happened with the passenger pigeon, it happened with the buffalo, beavers, and many other species. That said I work 5-6 days a week, and don't have the opportunity to fish every day to find the fish, I fish almost every day i have off and get on the ice by sun up and am the last car in the lot most days that I fish, but if I strike out I don't complain about the lack of fish. I don't perch fish for the most part as I don't eat fish and perch jerking doesn't really interest me, but the fishery as a whole is dependent all the species, and perch are an important part of the ecosystem. I don't think that there is any reason to oppose a law or regulation that hasn't been announced or explained yet. Disagreeing with something that no-one has seen yet is just not very logical.
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The way to keep commercial fishing off bodies of water that can't support it is by setting tighter limits on those water bodies so the commercial guys will go to better spots.
I don't sell fish I catch, but I have no problem with doing so as long as it's done in a sustainable way.
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I fully agree, if it is sustainable I am all for it, but you can't say something is sustainable without data and study. Show the studies that say that it doesn't have an impact, and set some rules to keep it that way. I say have at it at that point.
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If there were population issues I think the best thing would be to have open and close dates on selling certain species with invasives not having a season or limit. Closing the sale of panfish close to Spring would not only save a ton of fish, but a ton of spawners. The guys catching 150 lbs of gills and sunnies before ice out are taking pre-spawn fish that are staging.
I dont even like to fish panfish in smaller bodies of water for the fact that I just feel better not adding to the pressure on those fish. Im not for or against commercial guys, but the people making the REAL money off the fish are the buyers.
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Have you seen the "Smitty Sled" thread in the equipment section? A man like you ought to have at least one of these capable of carrying a half dozen buckets or totes ;D ;D
I have to travel light, small vehicle.
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I fully agree, if it is sustainable I am all for it, but you can't say something is sustainable without data and study. Show the studies that say that it doesn't have an impact, and set some rules to keep it that way. I say have at it at that point.
You can't really say something is unsustainable without any evidence either...
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That's like saying we need to take tax payer dollars to prove a negative. That's our state government. They LOOOVE to do a study. I'm not sure how you figure there's a problem Keith. I mean, you worry about the perch, which are ridiculously prolific spawners, but you don't fish for them? That's like me saying I'm worried about the Canadian geese, but I don't hunt for them. I don't get it.
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As a reminder, laws always have unintended consequences...
In this day and age, not enough thought is put into this when a law is passed, hence the reason to think things thru long & hard before enacting something that'll wind up having ill effects once passed.
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As a reminder, laws always have unintended consequences...
In this day and age, not enough thought is put into this when a law is passed, hence the reason to think things thru long & hard before enacting something that'll wind up having ill effects once passed.
You're right. Look at the bait laws.
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I agree but everyone here is opposing something that is speculation. There has been no public proposal of a change. There is talk of a possibility but we haven't seen it at all. IMO there is NO reason to oppose a change if it is to increase the tracking and reporting of catches. If the change is just a new charge with no plans to study sustainability then I would oppose that.
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One thing that amazes me is that the commercial fishermen don't complain about there catches and if they thought there was a problem with the fish population they would be complaining but they don't when they have a bad day they just get up the next day and keep trying new spots until they find fish that want to bite it seems work pretty good for us instead of getting on the computer and complaining there no fish we go fishing all the time (SOME OF YOU SHOULD TRY IT)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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I would love to be able to fish all day every day, but some of us work full time and have families and so we fish as much as we can, which for me I have already been out more than a half dozens time so far this ice season, but I would think that if we could just collect some data and it would not cost the fisherman or the state or bait shops any extra money then why not?? I definitely do not want more laws and regulations on the books, but i definitely do want to keep seeing great fishing in this state for generations to come. I give info to the mandated waterfowl survey every year, but I also participate in some other waterfowl surveys when I can because if you want to see something you love to do be able to continue on for generations then you should make sure you are helping the cause and seeing that the numbers support the activity being sustainable...on a more positive note it is going to be GORGEOUS this weekend for trout and bass opener, good luck to everyone heading out!!
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Keith the State has been getting data from buyers since 1998 until 3 years ago they never used it.
From a biological stand point Keith shouldn't you be more worried about total harvest not just Commercial harvest after all it is total harvest that matters. We could be like Ontario OR Ohio where they limit recreational harvest to 50 fish or less but give the commercial fishery HUGE quotas.
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same thing with northeast salt water ground fish. they can still drag but recreational fishing is limited so much it is not worth going.