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Vermont => Ice Fishing Vermont => Topic started by: buckshot464 on Mar 04, 2010, 02:46 PM
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I know that this is a fishing board but I think that many of you hunt. With the Antler restriction experiment being over. The fish and game with Wayne Laroche in charge is trying to make our state into a trophy deer hunting only area. He wants to make it three points on one side threw the whole state. That will be the end to many people tracking bucks as it is nearly impossible to count points on a running deer. This will change the way Vermonters have hunted for generations. Think about he kids trying to havest a deer and the presure of not shooting anything for three or four years because they don't have a trophy buck walk up to them. That is the end of there hunting in Vermont. Many would rather play Xbox or just stay home then spend countless hours in the woods for nothing. I know its not all about killing but shooting a deer is what its all about and thats when the real fun comes in weather your shooting a doe, a spike or a ten pointer.
Unless everyone want wants to be a trophy hunter you better voice your opinoions to the vermont fish and game and the Vermont deer board.
On the Hunters and anglers and trappers board is a messsage board where a few Vermont game board members frequent and you can voice your oppinions there.
Here is the link
http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php
http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php (http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php)
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Buckshot,
There are sooo many people that i know that are really sick of what Sir Wayne has done to the hunting in this state. My son hardly hunted at all this year. When I would get home from hunting he would ask me how the Hiking was. He used to hunt back when there was still some deer left in the woods. Everybody I know is ranting about how bad the hunting sucks, but nobody is organizing any type of resistance to this guys policies. I have hunted in Vermont only my whole life, and I am 53 years old. This year will mark the first time in my life that I have bought an out of state licsense. That is courtesy of Mr. Laroche. The hunting this past year reminded me of back in the late seventies and early eighties when you were happy if you saw a deer. That was after 2-3 years of rifle doe hunting. That is also the time frame when most of the out of state hunters said goodby. Laroche has been watching too many of the trophy buck shows on tv, and he thinks he can make Vermont like the tv shows. We simply have too much hunting pressure for that ever to happen. Hopefully us sportsmen in this state will organize and throw this guy out on his can........
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I am all for point restriction. I have seen more deer in the past couple years then ever. I would like to think it is because I am just becoming a better hunter, but I doubt it. If you want to shoot something besides a "trophy buck" then buy a bow, and shoot a doe. I know it actually takes skill to shoot one, but there are options besides running down deer.
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SSinVT
Were you hunting in this state back in 1990's. That is when we had a lot of deer. The group I hunt with would all tag out back then, and all with nice deer. Then the does tags started coming around during black powder season. We had 2 rough winters in 2000-2001, and they still gave out doe tags. Back then I used to pack the wife and kids in the truck and ride around before deer season filming some beautiful bucks. You can drive through that same area now night after night and be lucky if you even see a deer. I don't know where you are hunting but it must be someplace different then everybody else I talk to.
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I'm not sure where everyone is riding around but i ride around just about every friday night. I usually see at least 5 bucks in any given night. Since the point restriction i watch on average 5 bucks coming in to my food plot.
I agree i think the 3 point restriction might be a bit much but since the restriction i have seen alot of nice bucks.
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the way i see it is the people who want the 3 point rule don't hunt to feed there family more for the horns i for one hunt to feed my family i think we should keep the rule we have why up it to 3 points then after 5 years they will want to up it again after awhile they will want us to shoot only odd pointed deer lol we just dont have what canada and all these other states have to grow boone and crocket bucks like they do and i think they should out law these hunting shows how many of you have ben able to watch a buck here in vt walk in to your stand and watch him for 10-15 minutes trying to deside on if you are going to shoot him i know when i get the first clean shot i take it
hunter13
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the food plot is probably the reason why. i hope your not hunting out of these food plots as it is illegal.
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the food plot is probably the reason why. i hope your not hunting out of these food plots as it is illegal.
WHAT! Get the facts straight,plots are legal, bait is not.Get a new law book or at least one that is only a couple of years old.That being said the deer team and turkey team in Vermont should just swop .one group says we have 50000 turk the othe says 125000 deer.BB
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the food plot is probably the reason why. i hope your not hunting out of these food plots as it is illegal.
Umm, no hunting out of a food plot is not illegal. Hunting over a baited area is. Big difference. The state encourages food plots. In my opinion if the state wants to fix things they need to manage the land better. By making a lot more food plots for deer. I don't think it is a point restriction, so much as land management.
On another note, Yes I was hunting around here in the 90's. I have been hunting Vermont for over 20 years. Last year was my best season. 120lbs doe (bow - Mathews Monster) , and a 145lbs 8 pointer- Rifle.
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I to agree the 3 point rule is a bit to much, if you have ever hunted in pa you will see alot of bucks that did'nt make the cut just rotting because people shot first and ask questions later in my mind a waste, dont want to that in vt. And as far as the plot thing is concerned dont mind people planting them i my self do this but hunting on the edge of them is another not much woodmanship to sit there and have them come in..I hunt the areas around the plot in the woods bout 500 yard away or so more sport in my mind just my opion, again nothing wrong with that it is legal.
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hunt the areas around the plot in the woods bout 500 yard away or so more sport in my mind just my opion, again nothing wrong with that it is legal.
What the difference shoot them on the way or shoot at the plot?
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This state will not ever become a trophy state. As much as Laroche has a dream of this happening I just do not believe it ever will. First hand experience; checking a deer in the second year with antler restrictions. we had what should be called a legal four pointer. the guy checking it says wow thats a eight, due to the small bumps in the antler beam (not a legal one inch). just so the overall harvest report would say its producing bigger bucks.
biologist spent some time up north around my camp this winter. our neighbors who are there year around spend everday up in the woods (retired, older). they run into these biologist and the guy tells them how this area is full of moose and deer, there everywhere. my neighbors ask, how many did you see? the biologist responds, none, just saw some tracks. well my neighbors have seen throughout the winter 3 moose, and 6 deer who yard in the area and now this biologist is going back and report how this certain area is a wintering yard full of wildlife, all kinds of moose and deer....
my point.. i think that state is continuing to lie to the public, and frabrigate numbers to justify their needs. in the long run it all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. how many tags can they sell. how can they market the states deer herd.
not only is the state talking about going to 3 points on one side, buck opening up a muzzle season for does before rifle. as far as im concerned thats the best week of hunting in our area (NH experience) with rutting buck activity, now your going to arm all these hunters and put them in the woods. how many bucks will be shot by people during this doe season? i feel like its asking for trouble. theres a reason why vt season is when it is, to let some does be bred.
i just think the state of vermont and their deer management is so far out of whack. the doe to buck ratio is estimated at 2.75-3.25. if this doe season is introduced before rifle, and the extra doe tag for archery is implemented. whats the next few years going to look like?
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not much, again only personal option....like the idea off scouting to find the best trails to the plot and finding the best spot to hang a stand...not saying no work has to be done to do the same on the plot again personal option.
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the thing i dont get we cant bait deer because it draws all the deer to one spot to feed and the state says it would be a bigger chance of decese well what does a food plot do i have seen it i hunt 300 acers of concervancey land which borders private property and they have food plots well what i have seen with my scouting camera mounted on a cow path of a deer trail on the border of this private property and the deer seem to come on to the concervance after dark and are going back onto the private property way befor daylight
so it is keeping the deer off of the concervance land during shooting light thats what i dont like about the food plots because if your stuck hunting state or concervance land you cant put food plots in
hunter13
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not much, again only personal option....like the idea off scouting to find the best trails to the plot and finding the best spot to hang a stand...not saying no work has to be done to do the same on the plot again personal option.
I am not against it either way, just wondered.I sit on a small log road plot ,and on the trails to the corn and bean feilds.BB
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Why would you put out 23,000 doe permits if you want a heard to grow? Only reason is money. I can see putting permits out for those areas who's population need s to be controlled to make sure there is enough food to sustain the herd, but other areas where there is plenty of food
and not enough deer
Totally agreed!! at the end of the day, this is all a financial problem, and nothing more... :'(
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/NickF_519/FY06-Money.jpg)
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holy sh$t did this post draw some fire!!!whoooo hoooo!!! now if only everyone that put that same energy into protesting and organizing,some serious crap would go down. personally, i bow hunt,rifle,muzzleload...if theres a season i'm out there.and this past year SUCKED.i think the dept of F &W fudges the numbers on herd numbers to get people to buy tags.am i crazy...maybe.but i spend on average 300 days in the woods.from tapping trees to helping friends on trap lines to coyote hunting around deer yards.i hike all summer long and keep tabs on certain areas and i can say that from barre area to vershire to groton and the whole central vt area the deer are gone.when a friend has a food plot and game camera only photographs 10 deer (8 doe...2 bucks) from sept to dec when the year before it was so many he couldnt keep track....thats a sign that something isint right.also, in groton i came across 2 doe side by side that had been taken down by coyotes the same night.there stomachs were full and what was left looked like strong healthy deer.think about that, coyotes taking down healthy strong deer....shoot every god damned coyote you come across.then write to F&W and pitch your b***h.numbers count and this is still a democracy......right?
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there is a bigger coyote problem around vermont than anyone wants to lead on. I was bowhunting, and watched two mature dogs running a spike horn, circling trying to get that deer. during rifle season three different occasions, coyotes running does! this is crazy. we need to shoot every coyote we see. between myself and a neighbor, weve taken over 30 coyotes in the past few years, and there just seems to be no end to the sob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I'm not from Vermont,but Pa. They started this AR(antler restriction) in 02 3Pt's per side,and some areas 4 Pt's per side and a huge HR (herd reduction)Two weeks of doe season ( w/rifle),plus almost 1,000,000,000 hunters,the deer herd in Pa. is not pretty,they almost force you to become a DOE hunter,it's bad here and I hope they change so laws to beef the herd up,I hope Vermont sees the light to,young hunters are loosing interest also,it's tough to take a young hunter out and see nothing.
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I had to chime in here as I joined to get updates on ice conditions, but I am more of a deer hunter than a fisherman. I don't know if anybody mentioned it, because I did not read every single post, but did anybody take the time to actually read the the deer management plan produced by the state? It says nothing about implimenting a 3 point rule on one side at a state wide level. It only mentions it as a possibility if and only if such backing by Vermont sportmen/women was present. To many of you who do not see many deer anymore in certain areas that used to hold many deer, you must remember that whitetails are ungulates. They are a herd species and travel like a herd and move to the most apporpriate habitate that will sustain the herd. Fortunately, I hunt in an area were the deer are only getting bigger in body size every year and in antler size every year and most of us in the area DO NOT shoot the dogs out there. Why? Because they kill the weak deer which ends up improving herd health. 15 years ago a good deer in my area would be a 6 pointer at 150 lbs with a 10 inch spread. Now, there are 170lb 4 pointers with 14 inch spreads and 8 pointers galore with 16-18 inch spreads up to 200 lbs. Plain and simple, if you are not seeing deer, find another location to hunt.
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I say lets get back to hunting and less trophy hunting!
Vermont will never be Iowa or Ohio! There is a small section of Vermonts interior where farming is still quite prevalent so hunting there probably shows better possitive effects than in the other 90 percent of the state.
I vote NO to trophy hunting, leave it to the proffesionals on the sportman channel that hunt in elevated blinds in texas. What a joke! Is that the dirrection that Vermont wants to go? The guys with the most land and the most money shoot the biggest bucks! Us regular Joes end up with crap! And our kids end up not interested in hunting because we can't afford a canned hunt for them.
Thanks AR's for ruining our Vermont deer hunting heritage!
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I know that this is a fishing board but I think that many of you hunt. With the Antler restriction experiment being over. The fish and game with Wayne Laroche in charge is trying to make our state into a trophy deer hunting only area. He wants to make it three points on one side threw the whole state. That will be the end to many people tracking bucks as it is nearly impossible to count points on a running deer. This will change the way Vermonters have hunted for generations. Think about he kids trying to havest a deer and the presure of not shooting anything for three or four years because they don't have a trophy buck walk up to them. That is the end of there hunting in Vermont. Many would rather play Xbox or just stay home then spend countless hours in the woods for nothing. I know its not all about killing but shooting a deer is what its all about and thats when the real fun comes in weather your shooting a doe, a spike or a ten pointer.
Unless everyone want wants to be a trophy hunter you better voice your opinoions to the vermont fish and game and the Vermont deer board.
On the Hunters and anglers and trappers board is a messsage board where a few Vermont game board members frequent and you can voice your oppinions there.
Here is the link
http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php
http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php (http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php)
I agree with this statement 100% Very well said... If you want to hunt trophy buck then go to Canada... I have been hunting in this state my entire life and over half the deer I have harvested have been spikehorns. I deer hunt because I enjoy the sport and I FEED MY FAMILY.. I generally hunt dark to dark in any type of weather, and after hunting two solid weeks in a foot of snow in 20 degree weather, I have to pass up on a spikehorn on the last day.. I don't think so.. Imagine all the young kids starting to hunt, how discouraging it is for them to have to pass on shooting what used to be a legal buck. They are jaded for life and will probaly have no interest in hunting again.
In addition to all the posted property we have in this state and hunters shooting other hunter's and people's pet's... The integrity of this sport has suffered considerably.. I'm not going to lie, sure it would be nice to shoot a "tropy buck" but that it NOT WHAT THE SPORT IS ALL ABOUT NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN ABOUT TROPHY BUCKS.. I am disgusted with the way our current Commissioner is managing our deer herd and I'm not looking forward to the day my son and daughter are old enough to hunt
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Guy, lets face it. We are not going to change anything unless we get organized. I have hunted in Vermont my whole life and hunt all three seasons. This upcoming season will be the first time in my life I buy an out of state license. I am not going to buy a bow tag, not going to buy a muzzleloader tag, and not going to apply for their stupid doe lottery. I am doing so in hopes that if enough people follow suit and don't purchase tags this year maybe that will be enough to get Laroche fired from his job. It's all about tag sales, and if they drop enough, hopefully he will be gone. It sucks to give up hunting for a year, but it's the price I will have to pay to make things better. After what I saw in the woods last year I will not be missing much. In this state we have been hunting deer for a long time. It's funny that we never really had any controversy before this new program. Now look how the sportsmen in this state have been divided. He is working in the same method that the anti-hunters use to make their gains.
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Whether or not you support the idea of going to 3 points on one side, it is absolutely absurd to say the restrictions put into place a few years ago are having no effect.
I grew up in Arlington on a good peice of posted property. We have food plots and try to take care of our herd. When the antler restrictions went into place I had a long talk with my father and the other individuals that hunt our land to discuss putting a bigger restriction on our deer than the state has mandated. The last two years I have seen an explosion of bigger antlered deer. It is rare when I don't see a deer on any given day(I know i am hunting a prime peice.) But I spent a lot of time in Sugarloaf, ME and in Norton, VT with RAWRIGHT over the past few years. The deer you see hunting on public land comes down to nothing more than snowfall. The reason you aren't seeing as many deer is because you don't have a white background behind them, this season was a perfect example as I spent the whole season in Sugarloaf. I saw 3 deer (all together) over the course of the entire season. Then before the last saturday we get snow and wouldn't you know it.....myself and my buddy both see good bucks that very first day with snow on the ground. The deer are there you just aren't seeing them as they blend in to their surroundings.
As for killing does. The idea behind this is the simple fact all the herd is competing for the same food source. If you cull some does that will inevitably leave more food for the young bucks. RAW, you don't want the doe muzzle season to be before rifle season?!? I will give two reasons I feel very strongly this is the best time for that. 1.) First and foremost it would give the youngsters a great chance to get out and shoot A deer, buck or doe before the deer have been spooked to all the human pressure. 2.) The does harvested will not at this time be carrying a possible future trophy in their bellies.
In the original post you said people wouldn't track anymore because they don't know what is going to be at the end of the track. I think that is completely wrong. Tracking is probably the most successful way to target BIG BUCKS!!!!!!!! Tracking if anything should get a boost from antler restrictions. If you don't have enough time to tell if the deer is legal while it runs away you probably don't have time to take a safe kill shot anyways.
I am all for the restrictions. I would like it to be restricted even more. One guy said they don't want to see what happened in Penn happen here. ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? They are killing bigger and better deer, no questions asked. And I don't care what that guy from Penn says. Facts are Facts. One person said people will leave deer in the woods to rot because they don't meet the requirements. Well those people shouldn't be in the woods in the first place and under the current system they probably still would shoot a spike and leave it. Under the old system they would probably shoot a doe and leave it. So this will be no different.
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Everyone keeps talking about trophy bucks......the sport SHOULD BE about taking mature animals and allowing the younger ones to grow, no different than catch and release. I feel no sympathy for the guys mad because they can't shoot a spikehorn anymore. You shouldn't shoot a spike horn ANYTIME OF THE SEASON!!!!!!!!
If you need the meat that bad you can come down to my house and I will harvest a doe for you to eat.
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I see one trend for sure. The people with access to posted land love this rule. They are the ones that can afford to have the food plots, and large tracts of land with undisturbed deer. Try hunting a whole season on public land and see how you feel. I drove Lincoln Hill rd and Hinesburg Hollow rd the last weekend of muzzleloader season this year, and saw at least 25 pickups parked. I hunted in there earlier in the week on snow. I hunted about 6 miles in there and only saw 2 deer tracks. I hunted earlier in the week on snow behind my house in Williston. I covered every nook and cranie in that piece of wood, and never saw a single deer track. That is just sad as those areas used to be good hunting. Do you think my two boys want to do that same thing? Nope. They have stopped hunting. When I come home from the woods they ask me how the HIKING was. They used to enjoy it, but they also used to see a deer once in a while.....Keep giving out those doe tags. Vermont HAS become a trophy deer state, because now if you get a deer it is a trophy.... Thanks Wayne.
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I see one trend for sure. The people with access to posted land love this rule. They are the ones that can afford to have the food plots, and large tracts of land with undisturbed deer. Try hunting a whole season on public land and see how you feel. I drove Lincoln Hill rd and Hinesburg Hollow rd the last weekend of muzzleloader season this year, and saw at least 25 pickups parked. I hunted in there earlier in the week on snow. I hunted about 6 miles in there and only saw 2 deer tracks. I hunted earlier in the week on snow behind my house in Williston. I covered every nook and cranie in that piece of wood, and never saw a single deer track. That is just sad as those areas used to be good hunting. Do you think my two boys want to do that same thing? Nope. They have stopped hunting. When I come home from the woods they ask me how the HIKING was. They used to enjoy it, but they also used to see a deer once in a while.....Keep giving out those doe tags. Vermont HAS become a trophy deer state, because now if you get a deer it is a trophy.... Thanks Wayne.
I just want to say that yes my family does own private land. But I prefer to hunt on large tracks of public land and have done so for the past three years, and I LOVE THIS RULE!!!!! It has nothing to do with private land and everything to do with BETTERING our deer heard as a whole, the best ways to do this are harvest more does, and restrict the young bucks killed. The fact you are hiking all day and seeing only 2 deer tracks tells me you better find a new spot. Just because it USED to be a good spot doesn't mean the deer will always be there. I have found tons of tracks in Sugarloaf, ME (where people told me repeatedly there were only moose up there.) and in Norton. And these are big woods!!!!
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This is a complex issue! I agree with woodab17 on most of what he says, I have practiced a 3 pt rule on my own for over 10 yrs. While I have eaten plenty of tags because of it I have not gone without venison, if you put in the time(not just hunting but scouting also)you should be successful also. But there are many valid points made throughout thread.Coyote problem is huge, population estimates and ratios are a joke, I was told by a wildlife board member some of the deer and turkey #s are based on what people saw driving to and from work! WHAT?? Habitat,winter yards, lack of hunter effort and available hunting ground all are issues the State have no money to address. The restrictions would be better if the plan were implemented differently but being such a controversial issue it only went half way with the hopes of gaining approval (remember the original moose hunt uproar) You do have to remove does to make up for the decrease in 1 1/2 old kill or habitat will suffer! But it needs to occur much earlier in the season, Sept muzzy possibly. All that being said, I ended this season wondering what the hell is going on. I too am a dark to dark hunter with the whole season off hunting prime land and considered a good hunter, I'm just not coming across the 3 1/2 to 4 1/2's would expect to see at this point in the plan. I also don't believe we've totally recovered from the 01& 02 winters. Maybe we are not ready for the 3pt rule yet but we should not give up on QDM. There really is no challenge to taking 1 1/2 yo deer, dumbest creatures in the woods! OK w/youth exception though.
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it doesn't make alot of sense to me but i used to see 3 or 4 spike bucks every rifle season untill the 3 point rule was introduced. now i have'nt seen a spike in 3 years..... has anyone else noticed this?
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(http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy300/carmifisher/Mobile%20Uploads/1267391594-1.jpg)
Shot in the Enosburg Town Forest. I jumped him up on the forest, tracked him, he went across a road, I kept tracking him and two doe he was chasing. They went back up a steep hil into a swamp, I waited for 45 minutes where I could see a bottle neck, shot him at a full run 80 yds away. I got off the beaten path and saw six deer that day. By the way this 4-pointer dressed out at 150lbs and had a 15 inch spread. Public land buck...
I do not agree with increasing the antler restrictions at all, because a lot of areas have a very high possibility of just poor genetics, where a deer fully matures his rack as a 5-6 pointer. Allowing them to grow past a spike does allow them to gain more weight and I'll bet the winter kill is less now. Don't worry guys, I'm going to do a double major I think in forestry and wildlife biology so I'll be dealing with these issues in the future...
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:(Yes , I have only been hunting for 48 years now, mostly public land ! Private land too but we won't go there ! I thought I would see bunches of spikes every year lately because they were 60 % of the kill before! Haven't seen one all year and neither have my brothers. They must be all bunched up on those food plots that the majority of us dont have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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:(Yes , I have only been hunting for 48 years now, mostly public land ! Private land too but we won't go there ! I thought I would see bunches of spikes every year lately because they were 60 % of the kill before! Haven't seen one all year and neither have my brothers. They must be all bunched up on those food plots that the majority of us dont have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You may be on to something here. On my land the last few years we have seen on average 4-5 different spikes horns all pre-season, all bow-season, and all rifle season. But if that is the case you shouldn't be mad about it. Because these spikes will grow up and most will move away from the private land because only one will dominate. Where will they go? Possibly to other nearby private land, but more probable would be to public land. Moreover they will carry better antlers and more weight from eating well.
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it doesn't make alot of sense to me but i used to see 3 or 4 spike bucks every rifle season untill the 3 point rule was introduced. now i have'nt seen a spike in 3 years..... has anyone else noticed this?
Not really, I saw a number of spikes this year. But lets also acknowledge the rule was implemented to save 1 1/2 yo deer and that they come in the form of 6pt & even 8pt as well as spikes. I have let 5pts, 6pts walk because they were only 1 1/2 even though they meet my 3pt rule. But I can honestly say that I have not gone a year when I didn't have an opportunity to take a legal buck under the current rules. I find it hard to believe that with a little effort people dont have the opportunity to kill a legal buck in their area also. I don't think the ills of the deer herd is a result of antler restrictions.
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I hunt rifle and muzzle up in waterville, VT and I think the spike horn ban has had some positive effects but I'd oppose the 3 to a side.
The last two season's I've seen the most deer in the woods than ever before. It could be that I'm just getting to be a better hunter (been hunting now 8 years..24yrs old). The problem is that I can't find the bucks. This season I probably saw 80 deer in the woods and only saw one buck....guess what...it was a spike. And boy did it want to get shot. Saw him two days in a row and he just walked all around with my scope on him. At one point he was 15 yards away.
Anyways....where da buck at?
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dont anyone take this the wrong way. but a majority of the older generation go and hunt their spot, because thats where theyve always gone, someone ( or them) shot a nice deer there once. whitetails habitat change. the forest changes, logging occurs. just because that spot was once a good whitetail habitat does not mean it always will be. my father and his friends are the same way, they complain they do not see sny deer. well things change, and the deer move, my god most bucks have a home a range of at least a few miles, what are the odds there going to be on that one little knob when you are? i understand thats not the entire reason why people do not see deer, but i think its a major reason. obviously hunting pressure reflects deer movement. but lets keep in mind, this last deer season was rediculously warm. 50-60 degree temperatures all over the state, those bucks were not moving like they usually would and do. futhermore the best two weeks to hunt in vermont according to the "rut phase" were the first two weeks of november, which we cant hunt anyway! i dont agree with the state that there is the number of deer here, but keep in mind these factors too when our season sucked so bad.
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I HAVE SHOT DEER FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS IN A ROW IN VERMONT AND SEEMS TO BE MANY MORE DEER AROUND .... FROM NORTH ABOVE BURLINGTON TO SOUTH OF RUTLAND I SEE MORE DEER ... BUT I DO NOT THINK 3 ON ONE SIDE IS A GOOD IDEA .
I HUNT IN PA EVERYYEAR AND IT WORKS GREAT BECAUSE THERE IS MORE FARMS AND MORE DEER , THERE IS MUCH BIGGER BUCKS BEING SHOT AND IT HAS BEEN A HUGE SUCCESS FOR THEM , PEOPLE HERE I BELIEVE WOULD STOP BUYING A LISCENCE ALL TOGETHER WHICH WOULD HUURT REVENUE FOR THE STATE ... ITS A BAD IDEA
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I had a bad season last year.Too busy to get out with the bow. I blame the bad year on the weather. Muzzle doe b4 rifle? Bad idea.Use the bow. Coy dogs, killem all. 3 points one side? No friggen way. Poachers, hang em. There the main reason people post their land.(Like it matters to a poacher.) I'm with the Nuge. Strap assassin not bone collector!
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I threw together a quick online poll, this should be very interesting. :blink:
Please feel free to promote the poll to as many VT outdoors enthusiasts as possible.
http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/476191 (http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/476191)
Thanks ~ Fish-on-VT
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I HAVE SHOT DEER FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS IN A ROW IN VERMONT AND SEEMS TO BE MANY MORE DEER AROUND .... FROM NORTH ABOVE BURLINGTON TO SOUTH OF RUTLAND I SEE MORE DEER ... BUT I DO NOT THINK 3 ON ONE SIDE IS A GOOD IDEA .
I HUNT IN PA EVERYYEAR AND IT WORKS GREAT BECAUSE THERE IS MORE FARMS AND MORE DEER , THERE IS MUCH BIGGER BUCKS BEING SHOT AND IT HAS BEEN A HUGE SUCCESS FOR THEM , PEOPLE HERE I BELIEVE WOULD STOP BUYING A LISCENCE ALL TOGETHER WHICH WOULD HUURT REVENUE FOR THE STATE ... ITS A BAD IDEA
I live/hunt/fish in SE PA, but I grew up in northern NH and remember how the winter's are really what determine the amount of deer available for taking. Our winters aren't anywhere near as severe as in Northern VT/NH, even the one we had this year. Now if you had food plots as big as our family farms (the ones that are left anyway), you'd have more and bigger deer. My wife's uncle had alfalfa planted for years, and we always had shooting. One of the cousins decided to plow under the alfalfa and plant christmas trees, and pretty much killed our success. Even so, I remember walking around a lot hunting deer as a kid (in NH), and if I saw one I'd better shoot because I wouldn't be likely to see another that year. Now I sit up in a treestand and wait-huntable land is hard to come by down here-but if I'm patient I get meat. Usually a doe, but I don't mind. I do know that there is public land next to mine, and every year since I moved here to this part of PA I've watched the deer run around the borders of the public land. They know not to go there! I guess I'm saying that there is a variety of reasons you guys may not be seeing deer, but until you get good food sources to sustain through your long winters there really isn't any hope. Oh, we hate the coyotes down here too. Little pukes have even been hit by cars in Philadelphia city limits, wish more would get that treatment!
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We definetly need better browse in most areas for winter feed. Personaly I'd like to see the effect of the last reg. for a few more years...say 3....the deer here in the surrounding farms/valley have finally shown some come back in weight. With all the farms out of dairying the numbers and weight went way down, which in turn, pressure went down in our small woods. Seeing some good sighn in the woods now, still very low but it is a possitive dirrection from a few years back. Just an observation from around the "BOW". Whether it be from lack of pressure or the regs.....can't say yet.
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On another note...why are we shooting BRED DOES in muzzle loader season???? Go to all this trouble to improve herd quality then shoot the program in the foot like that. :cookoo:
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i think one of the main problems with the deer herd is the shooting that is going on at night. there is rumors of two differnt crews in rutland county who are shooting deer from sept to december at night; several a night and pick some up and leave the others. a couple of months of this and more deer are killed than by coyotes or doe permits. people talk about it but don't have the guts to get involved with law enforcement to put a hurtin on these guys. i'd rat out my grandmother if i thought she was killing deer at night. a friend of a friend heard that one of these crews goes out three or four nights a week and they loose count of how many deer they shoot at and can 't remember where they shot at the deer and don't look for them. people need to get some guts and help keep the deer safe from the poachers.
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In my opinion the deer herd is really getting a pounding at night by "hunters" and no one has the guts to get involved with law enforcement to stop it. There are at least two crews in rutland county who are shooting up to 3 or 4 deer a night from september to december a few nights a week. These guys are killing more deer than the coyotes and doe permits and it is sickening. One of my friends is related to someone in one of the above crews and they lose track of how many deer they snipe at night and they can't find them all and if they do find them and can't find someone to tag them the deer gets dumped somewhere if they even bother to look for it after shooting it. No one wants to help law enforcement only complain about the deer herd. Two or three guys shooting three or four deer a night in Mt. Holly or Shrewsbury is going to add up fast!!! If people took the time to get involved these guys could be seriously smacked down and the deer herd would be in much better shape. Get involved and call the state police or game wardens and don't be afraid to get involved is what i say. I am not a big fan of the wardens and state cops, but i am a big fan of deer and deer hunting and am giong to do what i can to help stop this nonsense so me and my family can hunt a buck that we scouted all summer and fall instead of a "ghost" that these wastes shot a 2 am in the morning the night before deer season. Call, give a statement, get involved!!!
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BUSTERLINES: Well said. Get involved. This isn't TV people. When a bullet takes out someone in your family while you're in your house at nite, you will, so why not step up now befor others lose a friend/animal/loved one? It does happen. This is not the example that the public needs to hear/see. All these types do is give more ammo to those who want more regs. inacted. Personaly, the boys here think these types are worth about, no, they are worth less than a PILE OF BULL SNOTT. IDIOTS. :%$#!: :callcops:
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I agree arrest the offenders and put there ass in jail for a month or more, Get in a car and drink and you will go to jail so why not for endangering sleeping citezens with high powered rifles probably when they drunk.
I call every time I hear a shot, personaly I have been involved in two arrests of poachers and I am proud of it. I have many friends who are afraid to get involved, they think the offenders will come and do something to them or there propery. I say don't be affraid. If eveyone gets involved they will be the ones afraid.
I know the amount of deer shot illeagaly in Vermont is just astounding, from spike horns being left in the woods to just blatent shooting of does during every season.
People need to realize that taking one for the freezer is old school. People will not starve if they don't have venison, they have food pantries and other places for food besides raping our wildlife. Maybe get a job!
Also people love to do it with turkeys, I think there should be one fine for all big game. Maybe there is Im not sure. Jail time would certainly stop the problem. Taking someones licence that doesn't give a crap isn't going to matter.
If our fish and game department spent more time on these issues and less time worring about how many points a deer has it would be better off and so would we!
I say go back to the 3 inches of anter law!
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Loss of you gun, vehicle, license, along with a $1000 per animal fine & 30 days time ;D
~ Fish-on-VT
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3 points a side isn't a trophy regulation. Do not confuse AR's with QDM. Its another tool to improve b/d ratio and male age structure in VT.
Further antler restrictions will IMPROVE the chance of a youth shooting a smaller buck as AR does not apply to them.
2008 harvest report confrims 2pt AR has worked in VT for the most part.
Many trackers can tell a big buck from a small one before they even see the animal.
Any addition to the AR rule must be accomapnied by habitat work.
There is the option to doe hunt if you are in it for the meat.
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On another note...why are we shooting BRED DOES in muzzle loader season???? Go to all this trouble to improve herd quality then shoot the program in the foot like that. :cookoo:
Good question!!!!
We are shooting doe during muzzleloader that could potentially be carrying 2 possibly 3 fawn. I have always questioned this, why wouldn't we move muzzleloader up before the breeding season. I believe NH has an early muzzleloading season
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I think we should start only havesting mature trout and pan fish, anything less than 5 years old has to be released , better yet lets throw all our fish back so that in five years there is tons of them and then no body has to work hard at all to catch fish. Just drop a line in and bam!
Better yet lets not shoot any turkeys with less than 2 inch spurs and no more jakes. Ah hell lets just stop hunting and fishing for four or five years and then just think of all the good stuff we will have! muaa ha ha ha
I stoll this of another forum and thought it was hillarious but so scary! Where does it stop!!!!
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someone told me that the idea behind the no spike horns was that they want them to be bigger bucks to breed the does to improve the genes' of the herd. this doesn't make any sense to me because if you don't shoot the spikes' then you will be out there longer and have more of a chance of shoting the bigger buck. then the spikes will out number the bigger bucks and would be breeding the does themselves.
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Just for fun someday, ask a farmer why he doesn't kill off his healty bred cows to improve the quality of his herd. I think you would get a look that would last a lifetime.......
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Let me start by saying that I have only been in the state for three years, 2 deer seasons. The antler restriction is fine the way it is and has a positive impact on the deer populations and quality. I hunt every second, every minute, every hour, every day that I can get out. I put my time in scouting, I don't have any food plots, I don't bait deer, and I only hunt 3 areas, 2 public lands and 1 private notposted land. Total acreage of each ~<200 acres each none are adjoining. The first year I only hunted public and got this 7pt
(http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/cobra9812/VtDeer/VT7pt.jpg)
I have not seen a single spike horn. This past year I had an 8pt come almost to bow range in early bow, and then I blew a chance at a 10pt. So like someone said just because there used to be deer there doesn't mean there is or even should be deer there now. Have you analyzed the changes in the landscape? Maybe there just isn't the food there used to be. I bet the area that used to have a ton of deer had been logged or clearcut within 2 decades prior to when you stopped seeing deer. If this is true then you had a ton of deer because logging thins the forest and promotes a ton of undergrowth which deer eat, once 20 years or less goes by most of the undergrowth is gone and so are the deer. So if this hits the nail on the head and your favorite spot is your property or privately owned not state land then take a chainsaw and fell a few large trees to open the canopy and if possible leave the tree attached to the stump so it too will continue to bud and leaf out. If I'm wrong show me your old prime spot and I will tell you why you don't see any deer.
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Good question!!!!
We are shooting doe during muzzleloader that could potentially be carrying 2 possibly 3 fawn. I have always questioned this, why wouldn't we move muzzleloader up before the breeding season. I believe NH has an early muzzleloading season
The most important reason to have an early muzzy season is habitat preservation, why let deer you plan to remove from the herd eat a month or two of the food supply. On the breed doe end of it, it doesn't matter when you kill it, early or late the end result the next spring is that it will not bear any fawns. Taking does is a must and an earlier muzzy would appeal to those who still hate the thought of killing bred doe. But to be sure F&W needs to do a better job identifing the areas of that need rebuilding of the herd and issue fewer permits.
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Just for fun someday, ask a farmer why he doesn't kill off his healty bred cows to improve the quality of his herd. I think you would get a look that would last a lifetime.......
This quote has no relevance to the topic! The farmer controls how many if any of his cows get bred, and if he is a dairy frmr ask what happens to the calf if it is a bull. While you may care about the deer,comparing apples to oranges will not help the situation.
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Have been reading this thread with interest. I agree wholeheartedly with many of the "habitat changes, so must I" philosophies. We had some good hunting where I was in the NEK and 15 years later, it has slowed down significantly. Habitat Changes and Deer will move to find more suitable habitat. Therefore, so must I--or I can sit around the woodstove in a barren deer camp and beeyotch/pi$$ and moan with the rest of them and continue to not see deer. The 2009 season was a dud for me and my crew for a variety of reasons: 1.) We had a REAL Vermont winter in 2008-2009 with prolonged below zero and significant snow depth 2.) it was hotter than hell 3.) we were hunting a new spot and I didn't get to scout. I firmly believe that I have to play amateur biologist and find habitat that holds deer and I also have to put in my time scouting.
Lastly, any Vermont Deer herd official who alleges our deer herd numbers six figures is truly full of crap. That is all about ca$h, nothing more.
These numbers are like snowfall reports from ski resorts--not believable.
happy hunting all
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It seems that quite a few of the people responding to this thread are doing so in a positive vain. That to me is strange as everybody that I speak with (and that's a lot cause I love to talk hunting) had a miserable year last year. A large portion of those folks are talking about hunting elsewhere next year. Many of those people have never hunted out of state before. They never needed to, but now feel they have to. I feel bad for the local merchants as they will be the ones to suffer. If things are so positive, how come sales of tags keep dropping, and the actual kill keeps going down. Wait till you see the figures for lost licence revenue this upcoming season. I remember when the state used to post the buck kill, now they post the total deer kill because the buck kill figures are a joke. Like I said before they want this state to become a trophy deer hunting state, and they have done that well because if you get a buck in this state it is a trophy...
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I am CERTAINLY not saying that deer hunting in Vermont is rosy. I'll be the first to say it sucks. That being said, it is no worse than when I started hunting in the 80's and deer were then few and far between. Then the population cycled up, deer huntiong got good and now they have cycled down again. It's always easiest to blame management tactics and ring the alarm bells (this is why I no longer subscribe to F&S or OL--just one alarmist article after another), but I'm not going to start shrieking like a maniac about gov't wrongdoings, mismanagement, etc etc etc. Here are a few decades worth of hunting experince: Deer populations move as habitat changes. Populations fluctuate from busts to boom and back again. Winter severity affects a deer herd negatively. EVERY severe winter following a number of mild winters, results in the hunting sucking for 3 years. Having seen this occur 3-4 times in my life, I'm not so freaked out about it. Hunter success percentage remains around 10-13% for the state, as it traditionally has for 4 decades and that is not a statisic driven by number of licenses or number of hunters in the woods, it's a precentage. I'm not saying that I have the right opinion or anyone has the wrong opinion, but let's put down the alarm bells. Lastly, it's been my experience that the people who do the MOST complaining, put in the LEAST effort--this is why I nbo longer hunt the camp I hunted in for a looooooong time
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Vermonner,
If you started hunting in the 1980's then you started right after 2-3 years of RIFLE doe hunting. You are correct back then you were lucky to have gotten a deer and happy to see any at all. They stopped butchering off the herd, and it grew back very well. Then the hunting was very good. I just think that they have removed way too many animals from the landscape. They have given out doe tags during black powder season every year, even after the winters of 2000-2001. Both those winters were devestating to the herd, and other local states adjusted what they were doing. Not the revenue strapped Fish and Game Department here though they just kept giving them out. I talked to a warden this year and he was telling me about a few families he was watching. He told me one family has taken over 30 deer last summer and fall that he knew of. That was in one town. Armed with that knowledge there was still a ton of doe tags given out for that zone. I just want you to know that I hunt as hard as anybody, and have taken over 50 deer in Vermont alone. i am not new to this and have seen the trends as well. The problem is our wildlife department does not adapt to the changes well. A lot of people talk about habitat. We need the woods in this state logged, so we can get some second growth going. The woods are just too mature to hold the good deer numbers they used to. That's where the focus needs to be. the state is puhing for people to grow foodplots. Well I have grown a number of them over the last few years, and they hardly get touched. They do get hit hard in the spring though when the deer seem to need it most. That is why I plant them, but it gets frustrating when you spend that much effort to help keep deer alive, then between the poachers and the coyotes and the doe tags the numbers keep dropping in the area I frequent. Kinda Sucks I might add
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(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg139/kvporter10/DSCN2080.jpg)
Here is a buck from Maine shot in 2006. It was the smallest of three taken from our camp that year. Out of 7 hunters 6 filled tags. Don't feel too bad about Vermont's deer heard right now ... this year the camp was skunked and I don't think anyone even saw a racked buck! They have some serious problems now and many factors to blame .... snow, predators, too many doe tags are some of the popular targets.
From a biology standpoint I agree, pretty much every animal population goes up and down depending on many factors. The trick is getting it to stay at a level that the land can support while maintaining a healthy deer heard. As hunters we want to see a few 200+ boys with some nice mass.
I would like to see the state help more with public land as well as landowners to plant crops (food plots, apple trees, standing corn) and manage their land for maximum forage for our game species.
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OK my two cents. I'm 55 yrs. old been a vermonter, hunter all my life. Back in the day the old timers never shot anything under a 8 pt. If you did you got ragged on . I was the only one that bow hunted that I knew except for a few flatlanders, no mechanical releases. bow hunting rifle that was it. saw herds of 20 or more every where you went. Now you got Bow, all month and after rifle one week then youth week end then rifle then muzzleloader witch I have the first state record. Now they want more, First YOU DON"T NEED DOE HUNTING, POACHER are taking care of that, then rd. kill. Now I'm not totally against youth hunting but one free deer an that's it. the problem with youths today everything is handed to them. ZONE hunting that works really good, RIGHT! That's like a free for all go where you want. Then put all the doe permits on line till there all gone WHAT THE HELL!!!! Hunting to me is being in the outdoors enjoying nature NOT KILLING SOMETHING. DON"T get me wrong I like getting a deer . I taught my self too hunt no youth day in my time and turned out to be a successful hunter , get a deer just about every year on PUBLIC LAND no food plots ,bait or what ever. This state can put out trophies if you give it a chance. Antler restriction is good for me and I"m a meat hunter. SO GET OUT of your trucks and road hunting and you may get a deer. FOR the people shooting and look after stay the HELL OUT OF THE WOODS your nothing but a poacher and NOT A HUNTER. Ask that guy that killed his son spring turkey hunting BEARDED turkeys ONLY. ???
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OK my two cents. I'm 55 yrs. old been a vermonter, hunter all my life. Back in the day the old timers never shot anything under a 8 pt. If you did you got ragged on . I was the only one that bow hunted that I knew except for a few flatlanders, no mechanical releases. bow hunting rifle that was it. saw herds of 20 or more every where you went. Now you got Bow, all month and after rifle one week then youth week end then rifle then muzzleloader witch I have the first state record. Now they want more, First YOU DON"T NEED DOE HUNTING, POACHER are taking care of that, then rd. kill. Now I'm not totally against youth hunting but one free deer an that's it. the problem with youths today everything is handed to them. ZONE hunting that works really good, RIGHT! That's like a free for all go where you want. Then put all the doe permits on line till there all gone WHAT THE HELL!!!! Hunting to me is being in the outdoors enjoying nature NOT KILLING SOMETHING. DON"T get me wrong I like getting a deer . I taught my self too hunt no youth day in my time and turned out to be a successful hunter , get a deer just about every year on PUBLIC LAND no food plots ,bait or what ever. This state can put out trophies if you give it a chance. Antler restriction is good for me and I"m a meat hunter. SO GET OUT of your trucks and road hunting and you may get a deer. FOR the people shooting and look after stay the HELL OUT OF THE WOODS your nothing but a poacher and NOT A HUNTER. Ask that guy that killed his son spring turkey hunting BEARDED turkeys ONLY. ???
Why is there no longer bounty's on Coyotes. Why not offer guys incentives to kill off some coyotes. A good friend of mine set up a trail cam outside of a coyote den here in Chittenden County last summer. From May to September that trail cam recorded the mother coyote bring back 17 different fawn to the den. that's right 17 fawn!!!! I have hunted VT my entire life and have never seen the coyote population as healthy as it is now. I hunt the Southern part of the state and the deer herd is the worse I have ever seen it, and I blame it solely on coyotes. I have shot deer on this particular piece of property for the last 12 years and there have been instances when I have shot deer toward dark and within 10 minutes, I have seen coyotes on these dead deer. Coyotes are everywhere in Windham county. COYOTES AR NOTHING BUT PREDATORS and no I don't want hear that coyotes are part of the natural evolution and we need them. We don't need them.. In addition to a severe winter, they will decimate the deer herd
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Holy Crap, 17 fawns!!! That stinks.... wanted to say that I know a kid who hit a nice buck during bow season and thought that his shot was a little far back. Decided to leave it alone until the morning, let it bed down and die. Came back the next morning and found what was left of the deer only 150 yds from where he hit it. All that the coyotes left was the head and antlers....
I think that I'm tracking anything I hit all night if I have too. No more leaving it for the night and giving the dogs a feast.
LM
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smartpill- same scenario here in windsor county. over the course of the end of winter early spring, one coyote 21 deer. that is just stupid. i shoot around ten a year and those *****s just seem to keep growing in population. i stated this earlier, but ive seen coyotes running deer during bow and last years rifle season.
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first of all this is for all you wine asses that dont like the youth season, maybe we should give you a senior citizen day! and all of you selfesh hunters that would rather shoot some scrub spike horn than see a kid go out a weekend before you and kill your deer. i would much rather have a kid shoot there first deer on youth day it is a great thing that the state has done and others are doing by giving the future of hunting a chance before all of the rest of us get out, and by the way we do all have a chance at hunting before the youth's get in the woods maybe those who are whining about youth day should pick up a bow! i do every year, and try to harvest a doe for a meat deer. that doe may be the only one i connect with but i have seen alot bigger and better bucks in this state since the spike law and would be all for a 3pt on a side. i also agree that the state should do a number of clearcutting on state lands to improve the deer habitat instead of leaving it mature forrest land, cleat cut it and you will have a deer buffett for years to come. the state could bennifit from the logging income and turn that around and put it back into the wildlife systems for stocking walleye in every pond in the state insead of this crappy trout stocking program! i wish! jsut my veiws on this topic.
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Wow, Honker! too bad you couldn't be a little more respectful to the others on the board with slightly different opinions. Totally for youth season myself, just not for the guy who pushes his kids at 6 years old though hunter safety then fills his wife's, mother, and the little ones tags every year. I believe it happens a lot.
-WA
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There are few things us Vermonter deer hunters get fired up more about than the condition of the states deer herd. It's interesting to me to go to the meetings around the state and see very miled, soft spoken people get so upset. We all agree that everyone is welcome to their opinion, and everyone will have a different view on certain topics. To get thousands of people to agree 100% on anything will be impossible............ ever try to order a pizza that will be agreable to more than three people. With that being said, it would be a mistake to manage our deer herd on opinions, REAL science needs to be used...REAL data, what your friends brother inlaw's exwifes new boyfriends coworker who has hunted deer in Vermont since Moby Dick was a minnow thinks really is not the kind of data I can get behind. And the data the state biologist use, I know first hand is, well.......maybe a bit less than reliable on some accounts.
Here is my wish list.
1. State Biologist that have the over all health of the deer population as thier top priority. No guess work and keep the politics out of it.
2. A more agressive approach to eliminate unlawfull hunting, poaching and more sever penelties to those who violate.
3. Habbitat management and improvements to foster a healthy deer population.
4. Protection for land owners aginst lawsuit if someone is hurt while hunting on thier property. As well as incentives to land owners who make thier land open to hunting.
5. More education for new hunters on deer management so that they can make thier own fact based decisions on what seasons they want to hunt and what deer they wish to harvast.
Thats it!!! Thanks guys!
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Handload - that's a great wish list.... just too bad it will remain a WISH under the current F&W management :'(
~ Fish-on-VT
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Handload, 1/2 of one of your wishes is reality. There is a law on the books protecting landowners from lawsuit.
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Well said Handload ;) I like the Pizza analogy! You are very right. seems like making hunting violations stiffer may be one of the easier ones to address. Us as hunters can wright our local FW board member.
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i agree smartpill. why not offer some sort of incentive to hunters to try an deminish the coyote population. whether they say it or not, everyone knows that vermont not only has a serious coyote problem but a problem with deer herd management. if we could only get every hunter to kill 4 or 5 of these things a year (or maybe more) you would see a slight difference in the deer herd. i.e more fawns. therefore more deer in general. i myself hunt with a crew of over 15 people during the winter chasing coyotes with hounds. this year we have shot over 30 yotes just in southern vermont alone. now if we could only get more people to do the same thing. as for the 3pt law....i say go for it. i have already seen a substantial change in the deer where i hunt. not only more bucks, but bigger bucks. in the past 2 years i have seen more racked bucks than i ever have in years past.for those of you who do not agree with the 3pt law or even the 2pt law, take a look at the weight differences and antler points from this year and compare to years past and you will see what exactly the 2pt law has done for vermont. just my 2 cents worth
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i've heard of dog hunting coyotes. how do you train a dog to run them, and what breed do you use? i would like to try this if someone could give me a lead.
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a lot of people use blue ticks, fox hounds, rhodesian ridgebacks or walkers. the easiest way to train a coyote hound is to run them with other hounds and eventually they will pick it up. start them out when a pup on a coyote hide and let em tear it up. just dont start running them till they are big enough. if you run a small pup with other hounds, they usually fall behind and thats a very good way to get your pup killed by a coyote. if you dont have that option with other hounds, your best bet would be to get em out in the woods as much as you can on coyote tracks, or even send the pup to a coyote hound trainer in canada
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a lot of people use blue ticks, fox hounds, rhodesian ridgebacks or walkers. the easiest way to train a coyote hound is to run them with other hounds and eventually they will pick it up. start them out when a pup on a coyote hide and let em tear it up. just dont start running them till they are big enough. if you run a small pup with other hounds, they usually fall behind and thats a very good way to get your pup killed by a coyote. if you dont have that option with other hounds, your best bet would be to get em out in the woods as much as you can on coyote tracks, or even send the pup to a coyote hound trainer in canada
Freaknasty7,
I'm glad to hear that you and the "boys" are killing off some coyotes. Not sure how much of an impact it will have on the deer herd, but it is certainly a good start. One of my co-workers has shot several coyotes this past winter out of his bedroom window. And he lives in a fairly populated area, which tells me the herd is healthy.
Am I mistaken or did there used to be a bounty on coyotes?? But because of the anti-hunters and bad "press" it received, it was eliminated??? For those anti-hunters who think killing coyotes is a bad idea. I would welcome you to watch a helpless fawn or a mature doe in the middle of the winter being "terrorized" by a pack of coyotes. It is not a pretty sight as I have witnessed it first hand. It was a horrible, horrible event. I think this may change some minds about a "coyote bounty"
On another note, fished St. Albans Bay this past weekend. Caught half dozen pike and two largemouth at just about 5 lbs. out of the same hole. sold about $30 worth of Perch. All and all a good day. WOrk all week like most of you guys, so only get to fish on the weekends. Would like to get one more in, but it may not happen. It's going to be tough to give it up for the year??
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im not sure if there was was a bounty on coyotes. ive only been hunting for about 12 years now. being 23, i wasnt around that long ago to know if there was a bounty. but there should be without a doubt. have the state even give 10-20 bucks a coyote. add it up over the course of a year and you could have some money on your hands. glad to hear about your fishing trip. ive been done for probably a month or so now due to sugaring. i would like to get out maybe at least once more this year. have to see how the conditions are.
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If you have an interest in Vermont's white-tailed deer you will want to attend one of the five annual public meetings being held in March by the Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department to discuss the deer herd. The meetings begin March 23rd in Springfield and Orleans.
Wildlife biologists will share information on 2009 hunting season results as well as data gathered at biological check stations on antler measurements, ages and weights of deer taken. Winter severity data also will be reviewed.
Anyone interested is urged to attend one of the following meetings, all beginning at 7:00 p.m. and ending at 8:30 p.m.
Date Town Location
March 23 Springfield Riverside Jr. High School,
13 Fairground Rd.
March 23 Orleans Lake Region Union H.S.,
317 Lake Region Rd.
March 24 Castleton Kehoe Conservation Camp Education Ctr., 636 Point of Pines Rd
March 25 St Albans St Albans Town Educational Ctr., 169 S. Main
March 29 Montpelier Pavilion Auditorium, 109 State Street
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2009 Harvest Report is here:
http://www.vtfishandwildlife.com/library/Reports_and_Documents/Hunting_and_Trapping/Harvest_Reports/2009_White-tailed_Deer_Harvest_Report.pdf (http://www.vtfishandwildlife.com/library/Reports_and_Documents/Hunting_and_Trapping/Harvest_Reports/2009_White-tailed_Deer_Harvest_Report.pdf)
Also, I've had a great turn out on my survey, 335 votes!! Please continue to spread the word.
http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/476191 (http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/476191)
Thanks ~ Fish-on-VT
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im not sure if there was was a bounty on coyotes. ive only been hunting for about 12 years now. being 23, i wasnt around that long ago to know if there was a bounty. but there should be without a doubt. have the state even give 10-20 bucks a coyote. add it up over the course of a year and you could have some money on your hands. glad to hear about your fishing trip. ive been done for probably a month or so now due to sugaring. i would like to get out maybe at least once more this year. have to see how the conditions are.
I don't think the state could spare that much money, but I think that local weigh in stations should have a type of buck pool sort of thing for coyotes. I also think that if there was more of a fur trading base in the state hunting and trapping of coyotes would become more popular. I know there's quite a few in Franklin and around my house in Enosburg, the neighbors have lost a few chickens and turkeys to them...
On a side note I've never gotten into hunting them, don't even know where to start. Any tips? Don't mean to jack the thread, but maybe some of you more experienced coyote hunters could share some helpful info to get more of us into it.
-carm
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to start yourself you could invest in a few coyote calls. they have howlers and squeelers and all sorts of calls. for the beginner- try a sqeeler. anything that sounds like a dying rodent, will attract the attention of any predetor, being a coyote bobcat or fox. if you really want to get into it carmifisher, you should get ahold of me on e-mail or pm. i could take you out and show you the ropes. probly only have another week or two of running coyotes with the hounds. if not we could to some calling. let me know
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i ve been calling coyotes all winter , we dont have as many as they do in southern vt but we ve been doing our part ;)
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Why is there no longer bounty's on Coyotes. Why not offer guys incentives to kill off some coyotes. A good friend of mine set up a trail cam outside of a coyote den here in Chittenden County last summer. From May to September that trail cam recorded the mother coyote bring back 17 different fawn to the den. that's right 17 fawn!!!! I have hunted VT my entire life and have never seen the coyote population as healthy as it is now. I hunt the Southern part of the state and the deer herd is the worse I have ever seen it, and I blame it solely on coyotes. I have shot deer on this particular piece of property for the last 12 years and there have been instances when I have shot deer toward dark and within 10 minutes, I have seen coyotes on these dead deer. Coyotes are everywhere in Windham county. COYOTES AR NOTHING BUT PREDATORS and no I don't want hear that coyotes are part of the natural evolution and we need them. We don't need them.. In addition to a severe winter, they will decimate the deer herd
I would like to see that video/I would bet the F&G would also.Post it up. I don't think there ever was a bounty here.BB
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I would like to see that video/I would bet the F&G would also.Post it up. I don't think there ever was a bounty here.BB
X2 would love to see those pics !
a bounty would be great but i know the state would never wont to part with the money
i have been sending emails to F & G and boards members about possibly makeing it legal to use lights for predators during the winter but have yet to get a response !
i think the problem is only getting worse and am glad it s so fun to hunt em but think we should be able to use lights as there are other states in the northeast that allow it and theres no way you could ever OVER hunt them !
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i don't think there was ever a bounty on them but an old timer told me there was one on porcupines years ago
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Yup, you would bring in their ears to the town clerks office .... think it was something like 50 cents a piece.
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I cannot agree with FISHANDBEER more. Wayne really needs to stop thinking that VT is a trophy state or ever will be (unless he has us continue to stop hunting until the bucks are already a trophy). He needs to focus on managing our land with the other two state agencies(forest and parts, and ornamental conservation) who are within throwing distance from his own office. We do not have the correct land mass and feed to produce these animals and never have. He has made hunting very difficult for most of the hunting population. The deer herd has been hurt by the muzzleloader doe permits and will continue to be. It appears the god almighty $$$ has hit the VT Fish and Wildlife dept. Buy the way did bag a 7point 170 lb buck but still the season was very dim overall. We shot and killed more big bucks when they were more to hunt then we have since the new regs. One for thing we need not to forget: HUNTING--was originated for the meat not the antler mass or size of the antler. It's the joy of the hunt no matter how big or small the animal is--That's what we are told by fish and wildlife to teach our children. I don't belong to any other forum but had to sign up for this one!
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Madriver i couldn't agree with you more, concentrating on the habbitat is where its at, not on the antler size!
Anyone who thinks a three point on a side rule is even remotly feasable is not in touch with hunting in Vermont. Just shooting any deer in Vermont is a trophy.
Saying that the AR's are for the health of the heard is a crock! I never saw any sick deer running around the woods. So a few more spike bucks running around how does that make them healthier? ha
Check out this site Madriver and anyone intersted, Go to the Vermont section, lots of talk on deer hunting and deer managment.
http://www.huntingchat.net/forum/index.php (http://www.huntingchat.net/forum/index.php)
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Buckshot we are on the same page. I've hunted since I was 10 years old and I'm 47. We shot alot of good bucks and we are not doing better now but worse since they changed the regs--they don't even curb the doe permits on a real bad winter--2000-2001. As I would have thought the spikes are the only ones left for breeding, while before someone who would have shot that spike has to wait now and shoot a mature buck which could have been left for breeding--just the opposite what F&W thought. Also there areas are too large to dictate for the whole area. I have yet to see lying in the woods starving since the bad winters in the early 2000, yet we say they are not healthy. If they are not healthy its not because of the winter but the overall habitat and food throughout the entire year. Wayne is on a mission and his staff will not "buck" him or they will be looking for another job-wether he is right or wrong. My question How much time do they spend in the woods--including his warden staff!
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Buckshot,
I checked out the link you posted for the other chat room. Interesting reading... I was wondering if BruceBruce1957 is really Wayne Laroche. That guy is a piece of work. Is there anything about deer or deer hunting that he doesn't know? If I am reading those entries correctly, it looks like their little 5 year experiment didn't work quite like they thought. They didn't take into account the hunting pressure in this state when they proposed these regs. Who would of thought that a 1.5 year old deer that grew a nice set of horns, is a deer you want to keep in the herd? They turned us loose on those deer, and the big boys as well. That allows the little scrawny spike bucks with terrible genetics to get in on the lovin. That to me just never made sense. It will be interesting to see what new experiment they have in mind for us.....
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Buckshot brings up a good point about letting the genetics of spikes go on. Are we shooting our 1 1/2 old basket racks and thus eliminating some of the better genes of our deer herd?
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Research shows that at 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 yrs you wouldn't be able to tell which bucks were spikes and which had little baskets. They just need time to mature. I also wouldn't be too concerned about spikes breeding all the does, its not like they are the only bucks left to breed.
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I have realized after much closer examination that buckshot and fishandbeer are correct. As I thought!The data involved is bull! They make it look like they want to support their theires. Look at the site buckshot has offered us all to look at. The data is more real and logical. How do they come up yearling fawn success rate's(Births) Do they follow all the does in the state in every zone?? How do they attribute to coyote kills ?(which we know are high) At one point about 15 years ago they(F&WL) said coyotes have no impact on the deer herd. As another said- how to shoot a running buck with 3 points on a side? Someone else said not to shoot at a running buck-well I bet I've shot more buck running then he has shot in his life. (not Boasting but had to be said) That's big woods VT hunting! You shoot running bucks. This is not a video of a Illinois or Kansas hunt. The reality is we need a serious change and Wayne and the boys are going backwards .This site is mostly for venting-which thank you I've done!--LETS DO SOMETHING!
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If everyone would take a second and fill out the poll on the other hunting site I posted. Maybe we could get things changed back to the way it used to be. And bring back the quality of our hunting heritage and not worry so much about there antlers.
here is the link again. It is in the Vermont section. AR's poll.
http://www.huntingchat.net/forum/index.php (http://www.huntingchat.net/forum/index.php)
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Harsh winters, decreasing forage (farms shutting down) and coyotes, plus longer seasons all take their toll, and every one of these are cumulative..... BTW, we have more Turkeys in this state than people willing to work!
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VT has a quite a bit of deer but the state does not have to end up as the trophy deer state. The kids what to shoot a spike horn they can or a 23 pointer. The state should have a min. antler size but no it has to be a trophy law.