Jawjackers

[Spider1]

LMAO!!!!!!! yes... yes it did... 

[esoxnepa]

Here you go, under Title 58.

https://www.pacodeandbulletin.gov/

I'm not a lawyer, and have seen the laws interpreted differently than what I would consider the plain English. 

My guess is that they are using:
63.5.  Methods of fishing.It is unlawful to use a method for taking fish from the waters of this Common-wealth, including boundary lakes and rivers, unless the use of the method is spe-cifically authorized by law or this part.

To claim it's not something specifically allowed, but who the heck knows since they won't specify what law it is.

I just searched around looking for PFBC laws and all I could find was the regulations book which had nothing in it that pertained to this issue. Does anyone else have access to the actual laws?

[RuttNutt]

I asked where, when and who made the determination that these devices were illegal. This is the answer I got:

Mr. Hartman,

The determination was ultimately made by Col. Britcher, Director Bureau of Law Enforcement. I do not know the date/time the determination was made but based on conversations it was prior to 2019 when a similar question was brought up.

Jaw Jackers, by the information available from the manufacturer, are designed to set the hook without angler involvement. Tip ups alert an angler of a fish taking the bait/lure but do not mechanically set the hook.

Hopefully this answers your questions and clarifies the Commission’s position.

LtCol. Thomas Burrell
Pa Fish & Boat Commission
Bureau of Law Enforcement
717-705-7866

[Chris338378]

That determination by Colonel Britcher doesn't make it illegal.  For them to be either approved or prohibited they must be voted on by the board of commissioners at a quarterly meeting and if they're prohibited they must be listed in the section of the law that prohibits them.  Based on what Burrel said would be the same as the Colonel of the State Police saying I think something is illegal and telling the Troopers to go arrest people for it without it passing the state congress and being signed into law.  Further more he can't even give the date that the determination was made.  In order to cite or arrest anyone for violating any law the officer MUST put the Title, section, and subsection for the law that was broken.  If they can't there's no way they can cite or arrest you because without that there's law to be violated.  Also 63.5  of the Pa Bulletin does not list every approved method of fishing.

[Gunflint]

That determination by Colonel Britcher doesn't make it illegal.  For them to be either approved or prohibited they must be voted on by the board of commissioners at a quarterly meeting and if they're prohibited they must be listed in the section of the law that prohibits them.  Based on what Burrel said would be the same as the Colonel of the State Police saying I think something is illegal and telling the Troopers to go arrest people for it without it passing the state congress and being signed into law.  Further more he can't even give the date that the determination was made.  In order to cite or arrest anyone for violating any law the officer MUST put the Title, section, and subsection for the law that was broken.  If they can't there's no way they can cite or arrest you because without that there's law to be violated.  Also 63.5  of the Pa Bulletin does not list every approved method of fishing.

While you may be correct, I can imagine it costing much time and money in attorney's fees to prove your point - and when you are done, they may simply pass a law anyhow to resolve an issue that is now public.

[Chris338378]

Ok so let's say I pull you over while you're driving and I give you a citation for $250 for having the wrong size wiper blades on your car but there's no section of the law filled out.  You ask me what section of the law makes it illegal and I say it's my interpretation and it's illegal and can't give you the specific section of the law that makes it illegal, are you going to just write a check an pay the fine?  Further more the Magistrate's office has to enter the citation and all information such as but not limited to the name of the person cited, the section of the law, and the citation number which without a specific section of the law they can't even enter the citation into the data base.  Also this is a Summary offense and the case would be heard at the Magistrate's office, you don't need to hire a lawyer to represent you unless you want to, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the Commonwealth, and they have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt you actually committed the crime.  Beyond all that you don't have to say anything if you don't want to because you're presumed innocent until proven guilty.

[Gunflint]

Beyond all that you don't have to say anything if you don't want to because you're presumed innocent until proven guilty.

And that will eventually happen unless you spend a lot of money to defend yourself.

[steelhead65]

I guess running a fishing rod on a down rigger is illegal then too, when fish hits lure, rod springs up and sets hook. Sounds like they are making up their own laws without having a clue what they are talking about

[Chris338378]

And that will eventually happen unless you spend a lot of money to defend yourself.

No it doesn't cost a lot of money to defend yourself especially if you go the Prose route meaning you represent yourself which you can do at a Magisterial Hearing.  On the back of the copy of the citation they issue you you sign the line pleading not guilty, write a check or money order for the entire cost of the citation, mail both of them to the Magistrate which is held as collateral for your appearance at the hearing, and they'll have a hearing on the case.  If you're found not guilty that's it, it's over and you get all your money back.  Obviously if you hire a lawyer or if you appeal a guilty verdict to the State Superior or State Supreme court it will cost you more money.  However as I said before if the officer can't enter the Title, Section, and Subsection of the law there's no way for you to be cited or "arrested" for breaking the law.  Without the Title, Section, and Subsection of the law being on the citation the Magistrate's office won't even accept the citation.  As for taking a lot of time the vast majority of hearings at a Magistrate's office are less than a hour long. 

[RuttNutt]

I guess running a fishing rod on a down rigger is illegal then too, when fish hits lure, rod springs up and sets hook.

You would think, right?  But apparently you can use downriggers or even a remote controlled boat to set the hook according to this:

§ 63.6. Authorized devices for game fish, baitfish and fishbait. (a) It is unlawful to fish for game fish with more than three lines of any description, whether fished by rod or by hand, at one time except while ice fishing in accordance with § 63.10 (relating to ice fishing). There is not a restriction on the number of hooks used for fishing for game fish, except when fishing in the Pymatuning Reservoir where no more than three hooks shall be attached to each line used in fishing. Rods, lines and hooks shall be under the immediate control of the person using them. A fishing device shall be deemed to be under the immediate control of the person using it if, when the terminal device (hook, bait or lure) is taken by a fish, the person using the device has direct control over it and it is not connected at that point to a casting or depth placement aid such as a casting boat or downrigger. Casting or depth placement aids such as downriggers or small remote controlled boats are not prohibited by this chapter.

[4seasonfishrman]

Outside of fishing a delayed harvest trout stream I've never had a fish commission officer ever look at my fishing equipment, I'd be willing to bet most of them wouldn't even have a clue what a jaw jacker was.  Maybe I'll pick up a few of them for next season, hopefully we'll get ice next year.

[AGC]

I asked where, when and who made the determination that these devices were illegal. This is the answer I got:

Mr. Hartman,

The determination was ultimately made by Col. Britcher, Director Bureau of Law Enforcement. I do not know the date/time the determination was made but based on conversations it was prior to 2019 when a similar question was brought up.

Jaw Jackers, by the information available from the manufacturer, are designed to set the hook without angler involvement. Tip ups alert an angler of a fish taking the bait/lure but do not mechanically set the hook.

Hopefully this answers your questions and clarifies the Commission’s position.

LtCol. Thomas Burrell
Pa Fish & Boat Commission
Bureau of Law Enforcement
717-705-7866

RN I see it now lol. Sorry I tried to help. Enjoy the rest of the season all be it maybe short lived.

[ajv5148]

.A fishing device shall be deemed to be under the immediate control of the person using it if, when the terminal device (hook, bait or lure) is taken by a fish, the person using the device has direct control over it[/b][/i]

When a flag goes off on a tip up, I'm not in direct control of the device. I need to run over and tend to it. This would mean tip ups are illegal. Wouldn't it?

[Gunflint]

When a flag goes off on a tip up, I'm not in direct control of the device. I need to run over and tend to it. This would mean tip ups are illegal. Wouldn't it?

No.   You are attending them and directly in control of the line and hook. If you don’t do anything the hook is not set and the fish is not caught.

[Chris338378]

If the fish bites the bait and takes off and sets the hook while in the process of tripping the flag wouldn't the tip-up be setting the hook especially if you have the drag adjusted on the heavy side?

[ajv5148]

No.   You are attending them and directly in control of the line and hook. If you don’t do anything the hook is not set and the fish is not caught.

I may be attending them, but I'm not in direct control. Not if I have to walk 30 yards to do anything to it.

[ajv5148]

If the fish bites the bait and takes off and sets the hook while in the process of tripping the flag wouldn't the tip-up be setting the hook especially if you have the drag adjusted on the heavy side?

I use the rubber band trick on my tip ups, which works great for setting the hook after a few wraps of line comes off

[ajv5148]

[Spider1]

§ 63.5. Methods of fishing. It is unlawful to use a method for taking fish from the waters of this Commonwealth, including boundary lakes and rivers, unless the use of the method is specifically authorized by law or this part.

§ 63.6. Authorized devices for game fish, baitfish and fishbait. (a) It is unlawful to fish for game fish with more than three lines of any description, whether fished by rod or by hand, at one time except while ice fishing in accordance with § 63.10 (relating to ice fishing). There is not a restriction on the number of hooks used for fishing for game fish, except when fishing in the Pymatuning Reservoir where no more than three hooks shall be attached to each line used in fishing. Rods, lines and hooks shall be under the immediate control of the person using them. A fishing device shall be deemed to be under the immediate control of the person using it if, when the terminal device (hook, bait or lure) is taken by a fish, the person using the device has direct control over it and it is not connected at that point to a casting or depth placement aid such as a casting boat or downrigger. Casting or depth placement aids such as downriggers or small remote controlled boats are not prohibited by this chapter.

§ 63.10. Ice fishing. (a) Ice fishing is fishing through holes in the ice. (b) It is unlawful while ice fishing to use more than five fishing devices, which may consist of rods, hand lines, tip ups or any combination thereof. Each device shall contain a single fishing line. There is not a restriction on the number of hooks that may be used for ice fishing, except when fishing in the Pymatuning Reservoir where no more than three hooks shall be attached to each line used in fishing. (c) Rods, lines and tip-ups used in ice fishing shall be under the immediate control of the person using the same. (d) It is unlawful to fish through holes in the ice that measure more than 10 inches between the farthest points as measured in any direction.

---------------------------

Guys, why argue? It says "unless the use of the method is specifically authorized by law or this part"

and then it says "(c) Rods, lines and tip-ups used in ice fishing shall be under the immediate control of the person using the same."

so tip ups are authorized. It also says "downriggers or small remote controlled boats are not prohibited by this chapter."

are Jawjackers basically the same as a downrigger. They are pretty much set up and act like one. Downriggers are authorized. Maybe we should ask the manufacturer to rename them "Jawjacker Downriggers".

[RuttNutt]

That's interesting Spider! 

Well, I got an e-mail from Matt at JawJackers. He called the PF&BC yesterday and could not reach Officer Burrell, but did talk to 2 other officers. He found out to get the JawJacker allowed, someone could write a letter to the head of the PF&BC petitioning to allow the JawJacker. The officer also said that that someone would need to show up to 2 PF&BC quarterly meetings to discuss the situation.

Matt was very helpful and offered to help compose a letter to be submitted and offered a few ideas on how to go about it.

Public speaking is not my forte', so I don't know if I am the best person for the job.....if anybody would like to step up and speak at a couple PF&BC meetings, it would be greatly appreciated!    I would do all I can "behind the scenes" to get the letter composed and keep in contact with Matt and discuss strategy and interpretation of the law etc...…………...……………...

So what do you say?! Anybody?

[jimhaney08]

Very interesting topic.  I have relayed some of this to my buddy who uses these a lot.  He's basically going to keep using them unless someone yells at him.  haha.

[Gunflint]

I may be attending them, but I'm not in direct control. Not if I have to walk 30 yards to do anything to it.

That is how Minnesota interprets it. In addition, if you are not close enough to attend it, you could get cited on that point.

[JiggerMan]

I have been in contact with PFBC, and local tackle providers  for the last month trying to get an answer to this.   this is what I got on monday directly face to face at the Harrisburg sports show....

a while back on here there was a thread about if automatic fishing devices such as JAWJACKERS, AUTOMATIC FISHERMAN AND LIKE HOME MADE DEVICES. 

so just passing along the info I personally found out from the fish commission at the Outdoors show in Harrisburg on Monday. 

THEY ARE INFACT ILLEGAL. 

I spent about 20 minutes talking to two officers at the booth and they both said they were illegal.  claiming that they manipulate the rod into a hook setting motion.  they said there was a email sent from Harrisburg in December of last year stating the ruling and reason why.  the one officer pulled it up on his phone and showed it to me, so I can vouch for seeing it and that it is real.   
I told that every mom and pop store and big box store in the state is selling them for use and not telling people they are illegal to use in pa.  the reply I got was that alot of stores also sell things like bait (corn and such), buck shot, and a few other things that are illegal in pa but not in other states. 
I also said that these devices use the same motion as a downrigger and almost identical concept.  they just said that a downrigger does not set the hook for you and more or less said they were legal because they didnt set the hook for you but our ice fishing devices did.

I tried to tell them that there was really no negative impact using these and that they prevented gut hooked fish thus encouraging and enabling more C&R.  they said it didnt matter at this point and were still being considered illegal devices. 

in the end they basically told me or anyone else that feels strongly about these devices to try and get a local representative or legislator involved to try and change it.

[JiggerMan]

all I have used for 6 years are jawjackers so it's a good thing the ice has been crappy cause I got no functional gear.   

I do how ever have about 200 bucks worth of garbage and rod reel  setups for use with them collecting dust. 

[RuttNutt]

in the end they basically told me or anyone else that feels strongly about these devices to try and get a local representative or legislator involved to try and change it.

Interesting..........t hey told Matt we should submit in writing to them(PF&BC ) to petition for the devices to be allowed. And then to attend 2 quarterly meetings to discuss it.  Guess it depends who you talk to at PF&BC.

[RuttNutt]

Was thinking about this the last few days. Guess until this mess gets straightened out, I will use my JawJackers as dead-stick rod holders. If you are not setting the trigger on them and they are not setting the hook on the fish, then they would be legal! 

[PennAngler]

The regulations booklet is just a summary, it isn't all the laws. But there should be a place on their website that you can find the actual laws so we could look this stuff up.

Fishing regulations are found in Title 58, Part II of the Pennsylvania Code. No mention of jawjackers in there 

[JiggerMan]

Was thinking about this the last few days. Guess until this mess gets straightened out, I will use my JawJackers as dead-stick rod holders. If you are not setting the trigger on them and they are not setting the hook on the fish, then they would be legal! 

I asked about this also.  I asked if I could do this exact thing and put a flag system on my rod and they said no.   I then said what if I take the trigger off of the jawjacker and then was told by those particular officers that they would call that legal but it would really depend on the officer.  they said that even though I was taking precautions to make my gear legal there is no guarantee that anybody else is doing the same so they could treat you as they would the others. 

[PennAngler]

Ok so let's say I pull you over while you're driving and I give you a citation for $250 for having the wrong size wiper blades on your car but there's no section of the law filled out.  You ask me what section of the law makes it illegal and I say it's my interpretation and it's illegal and can't give you the specific section of the law that makes it illegal, are you going to just write a check an pay the fine?  Further more the Magistrate's office has to enter the citation and all information such as but not limited to the name of the person cited, the section of the law, and the citation number which without a specific section of the law they can't even enter the citation into the data base.  Also this is a Summary offense and the case would be heard at the Magistrate's office, you don't need to hire a lawyer to represent you unless you want to, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the Commonwealth, and they have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt you actually committed the crime.  Beyond all that you don't have to say anything if you don't want to because you're presumed innocent until proven guilty.

The shorter way of saying this is that you have to due process, i.e. notice and an opportunity to be heard. Without notice of the charges against you have no due process. With that said, there seems to alway be some b.s. catchall statute officers can use when they need to think of something!

[RuttNutt]

I asked about this also.  I asked if I could do this exact thing and put a flag system on my rod and they said no.   I then said what if I take the trigger off of the jawjacker and then was told by those particular officers that they would call that legal but it would really depend on the officer.  they said that even though I was taking precautions to make my gear legal there is no guarantee that anybody else is doing the same so they could treat you as they would the others.

That's crazy! What happened to "presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty?!"  So even though they don't catch me doing anything wrong, they are going to assume I am?! I believe I would fight that...……………………………….