IceShanty.com's Ice Fishing Community
Pennsylvania => Ice Fishing Pennsylvania => Topic started by: Hardwater75 on Feb 05, 2019, 08:11 PM
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I was sight-fishing through my shanty at a lake in NEPA this past weekend. I had caught one big perch and a couple small slime rockets when the biggest pickerel I have ever seen came under my shack. I dropped down a live shiner and he crunched it. He made a solid run then bit me off leaving me heart broken. About an hour later I hooked another giant pickerel, but he also bit me off. I was using 4lb mono (my panfish rod) to a circle hook. How do you guys prevent biteoffs? I was thinking about using thin wire or heavy mono the next time I go out, but I'm worried the fish will see the line and turn away. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks and tight lines.
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In my experience, members of the esox family (Muskies, pike & pickerel) are not very line shy. You could go with a heavier monofilament line specifically for pickerel or you could simply add a fluorocarbon leader. Fluoro is very tough and super clear.
Even with a leader, you should really consider using a heavier main line if you are targeting pickerel. 4 lb line is very thin and will take a terrible beating from even a small pickerel. Further, you’ll need to play a big fish a long time with light line which really stresses them badly. Keep in mind, big fish = old fish so the stress alone from a lengthy fight can kill them. If you intend to release the fish, you need to keep the fight as short as possible. Land the fish quickly and release it quickly while it’s still angry. To do this, you need heavier line.
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If you're after toothy fish you could have a spare rod set with heavier leader to drop down for them to chomp on. On my tip-ups I use 20 pound Spider Wire EZBraid because it has 6 pound diameter for a leader and have yet to have a pickerel bite through it and that's what I'd use for leader on the spare rod.
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Obviously if you have pike, pickerel or muskies in the area where you jig then there is no sense trying to figure out how to land one on 4# test mono on a panfish jig rod. Either have another rod ready that is equipped for toothy critters or just laugh at the experience and tie on another jig. When I open water fish Ontario every year I lose 10-15 jigs with plastics in a week to pike bite offs. I don't like steel leaders as I'm primarily fishing for smallmouth so I just take it with grain of salt, jigs are cheap. I fish 8# mono on a 7' spinning rod and sometimes it's really funny - you're jigging and without even a hit felt you raise your rod to lift the jig and, gonzo.............no weight on the other end, pike literally bit it off clean without any feel of a strike. If you've never been around the toothy critter fish family it's a new experience. If you're reeling lures you may experience a bite off without a steel leader now and then but if you're fishing a slower approach with plastic worms, jig w/twister tail, etc. they are going to bite off their fair share!
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If you're after toothy fish you could have a spare rod set with heavier leader to drop down for them to chomp on. On my tip-ups I use 20 pound Spider Wire EZBraid because it has 6 pound diameter for a leader and have yet to have a pickerel bite through it and that's what I'd use for leader on the spare rod.
braid is the worse thing to use for toothy fish. plus its visible. If you dont care about the visibility than go with wire, if visibility is a concern go with heavier flouro leader.
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I was sight-fishing through my shanty at a lake in NEPA this past weekend. I had caught one big perch and a couple small slime rockets when the biggest pickerel I have ever seen came under my shack. I dropped down a live shiner and he crunched it. He made a solid run then bit me off leaving me heart broken. About an hour later I hooked another giant pickerel, but he also bit me off. I was using 4lb mono (my panfish rod) to a circle hook. How do you guys prevent biteoffs? I was thinking about using thin wire or heavy mono the next time I go out, but I'm worried the fish will see the line and turn away. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks and tight lines.
I always liked 10-15lb flouro leaders while targeting pickerel.
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braid is the worse thing to use for toothy fish. plus its visible. If you dont care about the visibility than go with wire, if visibility is a concern go with heavier flouro leader.
That's funny considering I've been using this set up for the past fifteen years and have caught God only knows how many pickerel on it without any bite offs. I've also caught bass and perch on it also. As for the issue of it being visible yeah it is but so is steel leaders and over the years millions of toothy fish have been caught on them so I don't see where leaders being visible is such a major issue for toothy fish.
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If yer setting up a jigging rod for toothy critters, to fish without worry, you need at least a medium power jigging rod. Atleast 8lb mono ice or flouro ice, but most importantly a light wire leader, like Toothy Critter, or any light wire leaders you can find in 6" pr 12"....they don't care about seeing the line or leader. Good luck
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yeeah... it happens. I lost a couple of my favorite jigs yesterday to pickerel. I found that you get far less bite offs with pickerel if you use "longer" jigs and don't try to horse them around. I got a couple 23" pickerel the other day on 3# mono. Tons of fun. When I say longer I mean like spoons, maybe with a chain and hook or a chandelier jig. Something that will let them get hooked but still keep the line from getting to close to them chompers. I also have some 6" wire leaders for my tip ups when I target pickerel and honestly it doesn't seem to put off the perch and bass either.
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I use the hooks they sell for blue fish. A big baitholder hook with 8" steel leader attached o a barrel swivel. Pickerel dont seem to be afraid of it, they just see the struggling bait and eat it. I also land the occasional pickerel on a little jig with a waxie. And I get my share of bite offs as well.
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I been using 2 lb Fluoro and have landed quite a few decent size pickerel while fishing for panfish. A good gaff and proper drag is just as important as the line. Definitely don’t horse them when you feel em thrashing their heads. Let them tire themselves out. Granted I have lost a few jigs, but I have also saved my fair share of $5 jigs. Also after having a pickerel fight, I rip off 2 feet of line and re-tie.
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I use fluro anywhere from 10lb and up. You can turn your hooks out (offset from the hook shank) even on circle hooks to make the hook turn on a strike and hook the fish in the lip, outside of the teeth, or corner of the mouth. I do this with my jigs even when targeting panfish. Works great.
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Good thought about the hooks and line being outside the fishes mouth. I use the Hali drop chains when jigging for panfish so that also gives me an advantage keeping the line outside the fishes mouth.
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Guys, this is an old thread, but thank you for the advise! Your info from experience on this site is a huge part to feeding my addiction to the sport. It can be hard to learn this stuff Especially as a newer guy without many outdoorsmen buddies. Searching youtube and online is useless.
Got my game plan now. Cant wait to get out this weekend! Thanks again :tipup: :tipup:
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If you're getting cut off with an incidental catch while panfishing it is pretty much collateral damage. If you're actually targeting pike, muskies, pickerel I'd disagree with about 80% of the info in this thread.
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XTM,
Okay, now I'm not so sure... I'm planning first pike/pickerel trip. For the tip-ups how does this sound? 25# mason braid with a 2' long 15# florocarbon leader.
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Nice thin titanium leaders are fairly inconspicuous and strong as leaders...
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XTM,
Okay, now I'm not so sure... I'm planning first pike/pickerel trip. For the tip-ups how does this sound? 25# mason braid with a 2' long 15# florocarbon leader.
Big discussion, long story short: No braid as a leader. I don't care what anyone says. No.
Fluorocarbon in open water (no weeds, wood or other obstructions) my sources but not my experiences say you can do 20# but you gotta know how to handle a fish. Use leader material, NOT something made to spool on a reel. My preference, long standing here, is wire. I've used a stranded uncoated wire for decades in 18 - 20# test with great results. Never been significantly outfished by others fishing with me using fluoro. It may be an advantage but I think there are other variables that enter into the "attractiveness equation" other than "invisibility". Current go to is a 17# nylon coated 7 x 7 wire that you can tie a knot in. Very thin, more flexible than 20# fluoro and (I believe) pretty low profile.
That said, I'm still playing with fluoro (just to prove/disprove to myself) and I'm using exclusively hybrid light fluoro/wire leaders for dead bait until proven flawed (new for 2021).
Titanium offers almost zero advantages over wire only in the fact it does not kink/curl. Still visible as steel, hard to work with and expensive. I'm out on that.
So for you? If you're not in heavy cover go to 20# fluoro and be prepared to baby those fish to the hole. After all, isn't that half the fun ;)2? If you're not adept at babying hooked fish get some 49 strand Surflon in 20# test and rock it. You will find that the wire is MORE flexible, easier to tie and about the same cost as fluoro. Plus you get the added insurance of bite off protection.
Do as you want. This is just my two cent based on the experiences I've had. Others experiences differ and they are as entitled to their opinions as I am.
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I agree with most of what XTM says.
However, I don't think it's fair to say titanium doesn't offer more than steel. You can tie titanium using knots. As XTM said, titanium does not kink. And the most important factor is that it's almost half the diameter of steel per given poundage. Does this matter with pike and pickerel? Most days probably not, but some days it might make the difference between a couple hammer handles and a big mama. It is certainly expensive though.
From Bass Pro:
Knot 2 Kinky Nickel-Titanium Leader Wire - 25 lbs. - .014''
AFW Surflon Nylon-Coated Leader Wire - 20 lbs. - 024"
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about the only way to keep from getting bit off with 4# line is longer hook shank. even that isn't a guarantee. if you use light line you will just get bit off. cant pick what fish eats your bait. at least not yet in the electronics world. close though! trout guys here have that same problem. they set there with 2# test after huge gills and wham a trout flies threw and breaks them off. lol
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OK. This thread was put to bed in 2019 only to be resurrected by OhhDam in 2021. His concerns are different than the OP and my replies are directed at that.
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Actually the AFW product I referred to was their 7 x 7 (49 strand) Surflon Micro Supreme. Certainly it is pricier than the 1 x 7 basic Surflon product but it is much thinner, .015", even more flexible than the 1 x 7, resists kinking/curling and is also easily tieable with conventional knots. I've also been a big user of the 1 x 7 uncoated wire which is even thinner than Ti is the same pound test (.011" for 20#). Plus is is easy to work with, no special tools necessary and dirt cheap so damaged leaders can simply be swapped out, scavenged for swivel, hook(s) or other hardware and discarded. Here's a look at the connection you can make with uncoated wire, no crimps, just twist/tied:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yZF0MLH/Crimpless-Connectsm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
By comparison Ti is not as flexible and, at least for me, more difficult to get a decent knot into. I only know this because it's been my actual experience in comparing leader materials. My other knock on Ti is it's reliability. One of it's properties is that it stretches, and not just a little, quite a bit. Stretchy metal, try it. It's actually kinda fun. Take a length you'd use for a leader, tie on your terminal stuff, get a good grip (use a tool on the hook end) and pull. It's like a rubber band, well sort of. The issue is every time it stretches the metal fatigues. You can see damage with steel or plastic (mono/fluoro) but not so with Ti. It just stretches over and over and over and at some point... Snap! It breaks without warning. How long does that take in a fishing situation? Can't say for sure but I'm just not willing to risk that.
I know, Ti and fluoro are the latest, greatest, super sexy stuff while steel is old school and pedestrian by comparison. That's just the marketing and I tend to take all that with a grain or more of salt.
This seems to be one of those topics that rages forever. Everyone has their opinions, favorites and beliefs. Seems like wire guys are on the outside a lot but that's just the way it is. I always give the latest, greatest a shot because I don't want to miss any advantage. Thing is, for the most part I usually come back to wire. I'll also not say anyone has to, I just think it's fair to make a reasonable case based on my experiences trying the different options.
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XTM, I appreciate your research and I'm always open to cheaper options. Thanks for some new ideas...
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try 2 lb dia fireline
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17 lb. fluorocarbon tied to a treble hook works pretty well for pickerel. I really don't have any issues losing fish.
JG
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I def think even pike can get line shy. Was fishing the UP a number of years ago and kept having a problem with bite offs on my tip ups that I had primarily set for walter, but where pike were also known to frequent. I switched to a wire (albeit not anything like the ones being discussed here recently) thinking - I'll at least get my pike for the day and all of a sudden they turned off. The owner of the place I was staying at happened down and we were chatting & tell him what's happening - he ends up giving me a couple fluro leaders that he uses for snook when he goes to FL ... I changed things out and started landing fish through the same holes.
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Eh I don't do as much fishing for pike and pickerel as I did when I started out and used primarily tip ups, but there are times when they can be line shy, especially when I was using steel leaders. When I switched to a heavier fluorocarbon, number of bites definitely seemed to increase. Had a very insignificant number of bite offs, but IMO, it was a small price to pay.
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Lots of great advise! This is exactly the kind of discussion I needed. You guys are really generous to share the expertise for free. So I'ma go and spend the money on a few of the tried and true methods you all brought up.
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XTM, is that a haywire twist? Or what knot do you use? Looks clean.
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60lb flouro single hook
30lb titanium single hook
30lb titanium quick strike
(https://i.postimg.cc/9RRyJwTT/PXL-20210114-144837899-MP-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9RRyJwTT)
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Actually the AFW product I referred to was their 7 x 7 (49 strand) Surflon Micro Supreme. Certainly it is pricier than the 1 x 7 basic Surflon product but it is much thinner, .015", even more flexible than the 1 x 7, resists kinking/curling and is also easily tieable with conventional knots. I've also been a big user of the 1 x 7 uncoated wire which is even thinner than Ti is the same pound test (.011" for 20#). Plus is is easy to work with, no special tools necessary and dirt cheap so damaged leaders can simply be swapped out, scavenged for swivel, hook(s) or other hardware and discarded. Here's a look at the connection you can make with uncoated wire, no crimps, just twist/tied:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yZF0MLH/Crimpless-Connectsm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
By comparison Ti is not as flexible and, at least for me, more difficult to get a decent knot into. I only know this because it's been my actual experience in comparing leader materials. My other knock on Ti is it's reliability. One of it's properties is that it stretches, and not just a little, quite a bit. Stretchy metal, try it. It's actually kinda fun. Take a length you'd use for a leader, tie on your terminal stuff, get a good grip (use a tool on the hook end) and pull. It's like a rubber band, well sort of. The issue is every time it stretches the metal fatigues. You can see damage with steel or plastic (mono/fluoro) but not so with Ti. It just stretches over and over and over and at some point... Snap! It breaks without warning. How long does that take in a fishing situation? Can't say for sure but I'm just not willing to risk that.
I know, Ti and fluoro are the latest, greatest, super sexy stuff while steel is old school and pedestrian by comparison. That's just the marketing and I tend to take all that with a grain or more of salt.
This seems to be one of those topics that rages forever. Everyone has their opinions, favorites and beliefs. Seems like wire guys are on the outside a lot but that's just the way it is. I always give the latest, greatest a shot because I don't want to miss any advantage. Thing is, for the most part I usually come back to wire. I'll also not say anyone has to, I just think it's fair to make a reasonable case based on my experiences trying the different options.
You can catch a black tip with that single strand LOL Rio Wire Bite Fly Tippet, supple, tieable, don't have to worry about Haywire or crimping anything. Using a quick strike like Jaeger posted is going to prevent the fish from choking on the bait. I actually like to put two trebles on the same loop like the Clam Zero Rig, this allows both hooks to slide into the corner, preventing choking down the bait and scraping against the teeth so lighter fluro can be used. This is more designed for pike fishing though, for pickerel I land them on jigging raps with 4lb, nothing you can do when they zoom in and slam a tungsten gill jig, crap happens.
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I get the last laugh here ddsgt7. The wire in the pic is not single strand. It's a 1 x 7 strand uncoated wire and compared to you RIO in 20# is .005" thinner. The connection you see is what I call a "twist-tie". No crimps, no special tools though there is a very simple tool to to facilitate easier tying and makes it look neater. The basic connection is twice through the eye and simply wrap the tag up the standing line 5 - 7 times. Done. I usually heat the very end of the wire to remove the temper there so it finishes easily and neatly.
That single hook is my go to for most stuff. It's a #10 so it's a good bit smaller than most guys use. I still set pretty quickly. If there's line going I'm pulling. Don't miss very many. As for Q/S rigs? Big believer for big bait. That's live over 5" and anything dead. Same uncoated wire, same connection, same hooks for live bait, #6s for deads. All hooks are wide gap, round bend short shank and 3 or 4x strong.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMzZXhqc/Q-S-Rigs-6-10sm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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I get the last laugh here ddsgt7. The wire in the pic is not single strand. It's a 1 x 7 strand uncoated wire and compared to you RIO in 20# is .005" thinner. The connection you see is what I call a "twist-tie". No crimps, no special tools though there is a very simple tool to to facilitate easier tying and makes it look neater. The basic connection is twice through the eye and simply wrap the tag up the standing line 5 - 7 times. Done. I usually heat the very end of the wire to remove the temper there so it finishes easily and neatly.
That single hook is my go to for most stuff. It's a #10 so it's a good bit smaller than most guys use. I still set pretty quickly. If there's line going I'm pulling. Don't miss very many. As for Q/S rigs? Big believer for big bait. That's live over 5" and anything dead. Same uncoated wire, same connection, same hooks for live bait, #6s for deads. All hooks are wide gap, round bend short shank and 3 or 4x strong.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMzZXhqc/Q-S-Rigs-6-10sm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The wire in the first pic (single hook) is the same as the second pic (double hook)? Diameters look different that first stuff looks thick! Wasn't laughing at you, I'd use heavier gear if I was fishing Wisconsin as well. Big lively or fresh (dead) is key, I refuse to use those diseased store kept 3" shiners. 5-6" live chubby chub
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Actually the first pic is 20# wire and the Q/S rigs were made with 30#. Same manufacturer. The first pic was pretty close up so everything looks huge. I'm good with your comments, I was just responding to your "LOL" about the blacktip ;D
I'm not sure Wisconsin is necessarily the "Land of Giants". Most of our pike here are pretty pedestrian with fish over 30" pretty uncommon except for some waters managed for bigger fish or Green Bay. I also like good lively live bait but I also swing deads frequently. Used to be smelt, then bloater chubs now it's what ever I can get my hands on: lake herring (almost too big), big suckers that went belly up, or fun stuff I find at the Asian grocery.
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Thanks to all for great advise. Your pointers helped me & my 6 y.o. son land this baby. That is both of our first ever pickerel!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yj7FPNH7/Pickerel.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Yj7FPNH7)
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Actually the first pic is 20# wire and the Q/S rigs were made with 30#. Same manufacturer. The first pic was pretty close up so everything looks huge. I'm good with your comments, I was just responding to your "LOL" about the blacktip ;D
I'm not sure Wisconsin is necessarily the "Land of Giants". Most of our pike here are pretty pedestrian with fish over 30" pretty uncommon except for some waters managed for bigger fish or Green Bay. I also like good lively live bait but I also swing deads frequently. Used to be smelt, then bloater chubs now it's what ever I can get my hands on: lake herring (almost too big), big suckers that went belly up, or fun stuff I find at the Asian grocery.
Ever have any success dying dead baits? I got some Pautze fire dye that gives extra scent as well, it's chartreuse dye, gonna try to hang some green dead chubbies :)
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In my opinion, a heavy fluoro leader is the best way to go to prevent toothy fish biting you off.
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In my opinion, a heavy fluoro leader is the best way to go to prevent toothy fish biting you off.
I agree.
JG
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In my opinion, a heavy fluoro leader is the best way to go to prevent toothy fish biting you off.
I agree.
JG
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South Bend In-visa leader smallest steel leader comes in 12 lb. , 18 lb. 27lb.,and up the 12 lb. is about the size of 6lb mono. even the 27 lb. is about like 10lb mon. and nothing is gonna bite it off. I've had pickerel bite off spider wire, and that stuff you can't cut with a clipper.
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Ever have any success dying dead baits? I got some Pautze fire dye that gives extra scent as well, it's chartreuse dye, gonna try to hang some green dead chubbies :)
I've used color on both live and dead bait. DK's Magic Powder, food coloring, various blingy additions have all entered in at some point. The Magic Powder is easy to use and can be applied to live bait as well as dead. Pink seems to be a good color for some reason. Also the addition of some red flashabou works well with both live and dead bait, particularly if the dead is bobbing gently under a wind tipup.
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I've used color on both live and dead bait. DK's Magic Powder, food coloring, various blingy additions have all entered in at some point. The Magic Powder is easy to use and can be applied to live bait as well as dead. Pink seems to be a good color for some reason. Also the addition of some red flashabou works well with both live and dead bait, particularly if the dead is bobbing gently under a wind tipup.
Do you tie that onto a hook like you would a fly???
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I've been using a 2 ft. 15lb fluoro hybrid leader off a swivel for pickeral. I put the leader at the end of my 4, 3, and even 2 lb test mono and it works fine on meat/dead pole. Works fine for perch also. For jigging I take my chances with 4 and 6lb mono...of course some breakoffs but not as many as you would think...
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Paternity,
Is the hybrid leader you use made by Yozuri?
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Jaeger,
It is.
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That's really good stuff. I use it for leader on my walleye jigging rod.
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this stuff?
https://www.fishusa.com/Yo-Zuri-Hybrid-Ice-Line
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That's the stuff, but I don't use the ice version.
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Awesome, thanks
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Same as Jaeger...I don't use the "ice" version of it.