Kicked off safe ice by State Trooper

[lowaccord66]

I hear yah man, but i akin this to arguing with your wife. Even if you are right, your wrong.. And will most like pay for it for a long time 

You make a point to an extent. Fishermen as a whole will pay a much dearer price if we don't fight against these situations.  Here's another example.  Take your family to Lake Garfield in June and try to fish from shore at the only public access.  Good luck! 

[Ice Scratcher]

In Michigan, one of those guys would be illegal, and it wasn't the one ice fishing...

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Here's the law that we have...

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_37141-120726--,00.html

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[Kinkyline]

Here's the law that we have...

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_37141-120726--,00.html

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That is a cool law. The patrol has better things to do than screw with sportsmen and women. Tax dollars going down the s****er.

[Serveert]

can we get back to the smaller picture? what was the body of water...I suspect spot pond if the staties got involved.  there's an old thread I took part of where we all discussed fishing there..in short the dcr flat out confirmed to me that fishing there is legal and they were working to educate the staties that they would be wrong to kick people off.  on i side note, I was fishing swains pond in melrose a few weeks ago, had a nice crew out including several kids..busy bodies called the cops on us and fortunately the officer was a family friend and realized we wouldn't be putting our kids at risk (8-10 inches of black ice at the time)...in these cases I feel the staties are no different from the bored nosey mother driving by..damned if you're going to have fun!

[taxi1]

I have relatives, friends, and customers that are police officers and state troopers. All the ones I know are great people. Unfortunately I have run into a few out there that get their jollies out of being Mr. tough guy and lording it over people. Not many but a few. I've been warned by them that there is a new C.O. in my area that is so cocky he actually struts when he walks. Can't wait to meet him if he ever comes to my shop. 

When I was studying to be an RN there was a guy in my class that had been in law enforcement that bragged that was the main reason he was in law enforcement to give people a hard time. I'm guessing that must have been why he was changing his profession. He must have gone too far at some point.

[fishingeek]

Couple of years ago me and my buddies were kicked off of Plugs Pond in Haverhill by the local police, firefighter, and even the Harbormaster! I remember that season we had a good stretch of cold temps that locked everything up followed by a stretch of warm temps and rain that made everything sketchy afterward. Apparently, the beach side of the pond opened up but we found safe ice on the opposite end of the pond in the cove that had 12" of ice. After setting up shop with our shacks and drilling our holes, the local cop pulled up in his cruiser and used his radio intercom telling us to get off. We ignored him and he left after a few minutes. He came back and threatened to arrest us if we didn't get off. My buddy walked over and talked to him. He was actually really nice and didn't care that we were fishing. He was just doing his job and had to respond to the numerous complaints from the pond residents. (I guess the residents didn't like us fishing too close to their waterfront hockey rink.) After he left, somehow the fire department and harbormaster came and actually approached us on a hovercraft coming from the open water side. Talk about overreacting. The harbormaster came on the ice and said the it is not safe and that we need to get off. I asked if he had checked the ice and told him you are standing on 12" of ice. We were far from the open water area and knew we were not at risk.

 To make it short, we didn't want to escalate anything further and packed up for the day. You have to pick your battle depending on the situation and this  was not a battle that we wanted to win when all three local departments gang up on you even though I was in the right.

[fishsluggos]

There are good cops and bad as in any profession. I've dealt with both. But in all fairness to LEO's if they get a call they have to respond that's their job. And most likely he would probably be the the first one in the water to try and pull you out if you went in. That aside the problem has to be dealt with from the source.

For example groups such as the Massachusetts Sportsman Council http://masportsmen.org/ has to be made aware of these situations to help protect Sportsmen rights. If possible put legal pressure on the local and state legislatures to pass a useful law that holds the people accountable for making crank complaints to the state and local police. If the officer reports to the scene and he confirms that there is no emergency situation he should be able to go to the callers home and issue a citation to the offending caller for making a false report with a hefty fine attached.

Just my .02

[esox_xtm]

I keep this in my wallet, have not needed it yet

Despite much of the language here this part is troubling:

(7) enter or remain upon public lands or upon private lands without the permission of the owner or his agent, with intent to violate this section.

I'd read that as a State trooper, technically an "agent of the State" has every right to do as they wish regardless of the reason, right wrong or indifferent. The letter law is weird that way. Don't know where that came from but that's the way it reads to me.

Definitely not agreeing with what happened or trying to stir the pot. Just supposin' where he got his "authority".

[moosehunter]

if the fish wernt biting, what the heck.

[esox slayer]

Yeah, that’s what I want to read...just how mean and awfully inconsiderate the police are, especially when it comes to ice fishing. I just love the comments by KillerFish and how to “handle” them. There are many ways to handle a situation diplomatically, and many reasons why the trooper acted the way he did. Carrying the regulations with you is a very good start.
Oh by the way, we just had our third officer killed in the line of duty in a little over a month. Somehow getting kicked off the ice seems trivial in comparison.
We all don’t like it whenever our “rights” appear to be violated, but there are other avenues to resolve these issues, like contacting the troopers supervisor and educating him. NO officer is “subhuman.” Just my opinion.

P.S.

Exactly.

Last year there was very sketchy ice at the launches around here, and yet nobody had whining hissy fits when the VFD's shut down access at those very same launches, even though (if you knew what you were doing, and many did NOT) there was good ice to be found out on the bay....

[lowaccord66]

Exactly.

Last year there was very sketchy ice at the launches around here, and yet nobody had whining hissy fits when the VFD's shut down access at those very same launches, even though (if you knew what you were doing, and many did NOT) there was good ice to be found out on the bay....

Not relevant to this thread though...the OP is not suggesting he was on sketchy ice...your comment would work great in a socialist enviornment though where a few feel the need to protect the "many who did not know". 

[esox slayer]

Not relevant to this thread though...the OP is not suggesting he was on sketchy ice...your comment would work great in a socialist enviornment though where a few feel the need to protect the "many who did not know".

I can see where you'd fail to make the correlation between the two instances.

Lemme try and help:

State Trooper-Paid State employees-Makes judgement call (right or wrong, makes no matter)

Volunteer Fire Department-Volunteers, NOT State employees-makes judgement call, right or wrong.

Hope that helps simplify for ya.

[Ice Scratcher]

Technically they took away your rights to feed your family...

IMO, pretty dang serious if you think about it like that...

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[dickbaker]

Mako Just curious?  Were you walking or driving? Public access or private?
Dick

[lowaccord66]

Technically they took away your rights to feed your family...

IMO, pretty dang serious if you think about it like that...

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Some choose to ignore that fact and rather pick apart posts than speak to the topic.  We even have some that don't fish in mass chirping anecdotals on unrelated bodies of water with unrelated first responders...

[Rangerboats391]

principle, this is our right's, unfortunately, people will take the path of least resistance, by doing so it will make it more common place and accepted, to lose your right to engage in a lawful practice

[BFD5]

I can see where you'd fail to make the correlation between the two instances.

Lemme try and help:

State Trooper-Paid State employees-Makes judgement call (right or wrong, makes no matter)

Volunteer Fire Department-Volunteers, NOT State employees-makes judgement call, right or wrong.

Hope that helps simplify for ya.

In MA there is no such thing as a "volunteer firefighter."  In order to work in the fire service field you need to be town employed, to be covered by the town's insurance.  No town employee is going to ever, in their opinion, claim that ice conditions are safe.  If someone ever fell through after this was said, there would be an obvious lawsuit.  A town or state police officer is the only one who can ask or force you to leave the ice.  A fire dept. or harbor master can say, in their opinion, the ice is not safe, and in the event it is not and you go through, they will rescue you. They cannot force you off the ice, that is the police or EPO's job.  Right or wrong, we all know who wins in a pissing match with the police. 

[manitron2]

principle, this is our right's, unfortunately, people will take the path of least resistance, by doing so it will make it more common place and accepted, to lose your right to engage in a lawful practice

Exactly

[23mako]

I keep this in my wallet, have not needed it yet

I printed it out yesterday and will keep it with my license not very optimistic it will actually work If it happens again. It would have been nice to have an actual discussion on the safety of ice/ situation I was fishing a tiny mud hole of a pond that is only 5 feet deep and maybe 30yrd wide by no means was it an unsaved situation just a young officer with a chip on his shoulder

[BaitBucket]

just a young officer with a chip on his shoulder

Yup, and almost every night on the news we see a case where these situations get out of hand. IMO, Ice fishing isnt worth the risk..

[23mako]

can we get back to the smaller picture? what was the body of water...I suspect spot pond if the staties got involved.  there's an old thread I took part of where we all discussed fishing there..in short the dcr flat out confirmed to me that fishing there is legal and they were working to educate the staties that they would be wrong to kick people off.  on i side note, I was fishing swains pond in melrose a few weeks ago, had a nice crew out including several kids..busy bodies called the cops on us and fortunately the officer was a family friend and realized we wouldn't be putting our kids at risk (8-10 inches of black ice at the time)...in these cases I feel the staties are no different from the bored nosey mother driving by..damned if you're going to have fun!

1/4 mile pond just before spot

[lowaccord66]

It works.  If its a police officer I will always ask for a supervisor and any on duty EPO to be present.  I am always polite even under threats of arrest because I am fishing legally and they would struggle to get a charge to stick and have struggled to in my experience.  They will try to get you with disobeying a lawful order but asking you to get off the ice is not a lawful order.

[23mako]

Mako Just curious?  Were you walking or driving? Public access or private?
Dick

I was at 1/4 mile pond  public access...  It is part of the Fells where ice fishing is allowed but not appreciated.

[flounder pounder]

Just happened last weekend in Methuen Ma. Cop came and said it's 40 degrees out and the chief wants everyone off the ice.

[mboss13]

You need to move to a state that appreciates ice fishing, here in MN I have yet to see an officer come out to the lake....ever. But yes, this is border line, you should have taken the cops badge # and call local DNR. They have no authority on determining ice/temperature on public lands. If they feel that rule needs to be enacted they need to get the local DNR to put it in their fishing rules no? I think I'd contact the chief of that police station and have a chat about them determining the rights of citizens to fish based on the temperature outside. If they are so concerned for folks maybe they need to fight real crime. They need to follow the rules, not make them up as they go! The question is, and it wouldn't shock me, is there something in MA fishing regulations/public land/lake laws that allows them to do this if they wish?

[taxi1]

Some choose to ignore that fact and rather pick apart posts than speak to the topic.  We even have some that don't fish in mass chirping anecdotals on unrelated bodies of water with unrelated first responders...

I do fish in Mass but not that often. But I see your point.

[lowaccord66]

I do fish in Mass but not that often. But I see your point.

I thought other than the point above we were having a decent discussion.  No need to make things convoluted with details from unrelated events in other states.  I take this stuff seriously and will be sticking my neck out by calling the Medford barricks and trying to educate so 23mako and others can peacefully enjoy a sport I love so much.  I deeply appreciate the people who do what I consider a difficult and thankless job but I have to be a professional at work and they do too!

[Serveert]

when you contact the barracks you can relay this....from a prior thread on spot pond which would apply to 1/4 mile as well....

Just a follow-up as the captain/ranger got back to me.  Long story short, my take is that 1) Ice Fishing is legal there, 2) the DCR has been communicating this to the Staties, but 3) not everyone is in the loop and the law also says you have to listen to them even if they're "wrong".  As to why a Ranger kicked you off Mike thinks it maybe wasn't one of of his guys, just someone dispatched who wouldn't have known not to.  Here's the reposne I got below:

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The rules with regard to on-ice activity on Spot Pond have changed a few times over the years. For most of the last 100+ years, going on the pond (a backup drinking water supply) for any reason was prohibited… It was only in the last 15 years that recreation on the pond has been allowed (i.e. fishing, boating with designated Spot Pond boats, etc.). But it has only been in the last 5+ years or so that on-ice activity has not been prohibited (though the activity is still strongly discouraged in the regulation language, and the regulation leaves the door open for outright prohibition at individual sites by way of posting signage).

Further confusion is added by the fact that the water is owned by MWRA, but managed by DCR. MWRA has very strict rules prohibiting activities that could affect the quality of the drinking water; the nearby MWRA High Service Reservoir has strict rules of No Trespassing even within the land surrounding the water – which until 15 years ago applied to both bodies of water… However, the MOU between DCR and MWRA allows for fishing in Spot Pond, but does not cover whether people are allowed on the ice (or any mention of using motorized ice augers, etc), because going on the ice was strictly prohibited at the time of the MOU. But there is a rule that bodily contact with the water is strictly prohibited – so I can also see how someone might interpret contact with the ice as being the same thing as contact with the water… When in doubt about the rule, an officer might assume that if ice fishing is not prohibited for the sake of safety, it’s probably prohibited for the sake of water quality.

Because of the confusing history, the State Police and DCR often gets calls from the public when someone is on the ice and is visible from Woodland Rd. Members of the public report that someone is “violating the park rules” and “putting themselves and others in danger”. So if the officer/dispatcher who takes the call, or who responds, is unfamiliar with the latest developments in the ongoing rule changes – then it’s possible you would be asked to leave the ice… That said, we have had multiple conversations with the State Police this year as this topic has come up again and again - by phone, email, and in person – and they should be aware that ice fishing is presently allowed on Spot Pond. (Whether this information has trickled down to every officer on the force, I can’t say.)However, you should be aware that it is in the regulations that “All persons must adhere to any and all reasonable requests or directions of DCR personnel or law enforcement officials.” If an officer or DCR official feels that it is not safe for you to be on the ice, OR that your presence on the ice is causing a safety issue by way of giving others the impression that the ice is safe across the entire pond, and drawing kids or other onlookers out onto unsafe ice, he or she could ask you to pack up - and that would be considered a reasonable request.

Sorry for the long convoluted response. Just wanted to explain all of the gray areas and reasons for concern and confusion. I guess I would suggest that if you choose to ice fish on Spot Pond, try to do so in an area that is relatively less conspicuous so as not to generate calls from passersby, and if you are still approached and asked to pack up and leave, at least you have some understanding of why.

Best,

Capt. Mike Nelson
Regional Park Ranger
MassParks, North Region
Department of Conservation and Recreation
Office: (617)727-1199, ext. 410
Fax: (617)727-6450

[manitron2]

Thank you for the clarification.

[PikeKing23]

I think there are a lot of people missing the point here. It doesn't matter if the ice was "safe" or not. It also doesn't matter who had the opinion of whether it was safe or not. As a holder of a valid fishing licence, I have a right to fish public water and that right is protected by the law. Anybody (including local or state police) that try to strong arm, intimidate, or threaten me to stop this legal practice is actually the one who is breaking the law.  Both CT and MA law is very clear on this (I live in CT but also hold a MA license).

I don't even think that posting signs for "unsafe ice" are legal when it comes to fishing.  I understand trying to inform the general public who just walk out onto ice with no education or even a valid way to check the ice and want to inform them that there may be dangers.  In this case, if I choose to take that risk and need to be rescued, I should be liable for the cost.  However,  that does not give a town official the right to tell me I cannot use the resources that I pay to maintain.

As others have said, if we allow this to take place, we will loose our rights as Americans and forgo the freedoms that we have fought for.  Look throughout history.  The only way to affect change when you are being persecuted is to stand up to the perpetrators.  Even if they are the cops.  If we all roll over and show our bellies because it is "easier" or "less of a hassle" how much longer do you think we will be allowed to practice this great sport?