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IceShanty Main => General Ice Fishing Chit Chat => Topic started by: Cal64 on Aug 12, 2017, 09:13 AM
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Just had to do two carb jobs on lawnmowers due to ethanol in gas. Have been researching,and am finding conflicting info on amounts of ethanol, and even changing amounts in winter vs summer. Found some interesting videos on YouTube about testing for % of ethanol,as well as removal from gas. Has anyone tried this? And did amounts change in winter? Thanks
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Cal64 would this website help? All my small engine gear gets non ethanol gas and Ive not had any problems since I made the switch.
https://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=AB
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Yes,that did help, the station, and the fuel I run was listed on the site as ethanol free. Even the manager of the station didn't know that. The lawn mowers had different gas when they were put Away last fall. Only the good stuff from now on. I will however test it just to see
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So you are making the claim that is was ethanol.....what was wrong any why do you think it was ethanol? I've ran ethanol 10% in all my stuff and have never had a problem. The only problem I have ever had with fuel was with premium fuel having a bunch of water in it, due to not selling since it was some much higher in cost.
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I actually don't know if ethanol was the cause of my problems. What I do know is that I never new how to do a carb job. Now in the past few years I do them regularly. The problem is always after the engine, (usually smaller),sits over the winter. When I open up the carb, the bottom end is full of fuel that smells like varnish, with water in it. I used to burn regular fuel in everything, and never had a problem. Now regular fuel burns fine in everything I own, but after things sit, I do carb jobs. The only thing I know of that has changed is the addition of ethanol . This is by no means a scientific test,but I would be interested to know what else it could be
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So you are making the claim that is was ethanol.....what was wrong any why do you think it was ethanol? I've ran ethanol 10% in all my stuff and have never had a problem. The only problem I have ever had with fuel was with premium fuel having a bunch of water in it, due to not selling since it was some much higher in cost.
It is apparent a newcomer to the thread has consumed a large ration of C2H5OH due to the obvious slurring of words and lack of continuity of thought.
It's times such as this when silence is wiser than a post that proves a fool spoke/typed.
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I actually don't know if ethanol was the cause of my problems. What I do know is that I never new how to do a carb job. Now in the past few years I do them regularly. The problem is always after the engine, (usually smaller),sits over the winter. When I open up the carb, the bottom end is full of fuel that smells like varnish, with water in it. I used to burn regular fuel in everything, and never had a problem. Now regular fuel burns fine in everything I own, but after things sit, I do carb jobs. The only thing I know of that has changed is the addition of ethanol . This is by no means a scientific test,but I would be interested to know what else it could be
I'm not saying it isn't or is ethanol. It just seems everyone who has had a problem with fuel blames it on ethanol, and I never hear what the reasoning is. The only actual problem that I've really ever experienced with fuel was with premium from a gas station having water in it.
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I'm not saying it isn't or is ethanol. It just seems everyone who has had a problem with fuel blames it on ethanol, and I never hear what the reasoning is. The only actual problem that I've really ever experienced with fuel was with premium from a gas station having water in it.
Here's some reading for you....
http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/basics/ethanol-free-fuel/
http://blog.amsoil.com/how-to-fight-ethanol-problems-in-small-engines/
https://www.bellperformance.com/treat-your-engine/small-engines-and-generators
You're best off avoiding ethanol gas if at all possible!!! It's that simple!!!
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Agro, the problem is that Ethanol attracts water. That's why there was water in your higher octane fuel that had the ethanol in it. The water will get into the fuel system and cause oxidation in the tank and in the engine. If enough water gets into the fuel system the engine will run poorly as well. Another problem is that the ethanol will remove old gunk out of an older motor and clog up the fuel system. Another problem is that when water is left in the fuel for too long the gasoline itself will oxidize. That's where the varnish and gum comes from. This too will clog up the fuel system pretty quickly. There really is documented problems with ethanol in small engine fuel systems. With some maintenance they should be minimal but using ethanol free gasoline is better.
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my problem with ethanol fuel is it makes gas lines/gaskets/diaphrams brittle in just a year.it gums carbs up for sure.its good in vehicles because the fuel gets used and fresh put in on a regular basis. but not good in engines that don't get used regularly.ive rebuilt lots of carbs and found it attracts or contains more water than reg gas too.i don't recommend putting ethanol gas in any small engine or a engine that sits for long periods of time.seafoam it if you do.jmo I work on small engines almost ever day.
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Another Ethanol problem is phase separation. Ethanol attracts moisture which separates during storage. Some boat dealers say it is better to store a boat with an empty tank over winter rather than store it with a full tank of ethanol blend. I burn non Ethanol gas in my boats and small engines.
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Agro, the problem is that Ethanol attracts water. That's why there was water in your higher octane fuel that had the ethanol in it. The water will get into the fuel system and cause oxidation in the tank and in the engine. If enough water gets into the fuel system the engine will run poorly as well. Another problem is that the ethanol will remove old gunk out of an older motor and clog up the fuel system. Another problem is that when water is left in the fuel for too long the gasoline itself will oxidize. That's where the varnish and gum comes from. This too will clog up the fuel system pretty quickly. There really is documented problems with ethanol in small engine fuel systems. With some maintenance they should be minimal but using ethanol free gasoline is better.
Premium doesn't have ethanol
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Most stations selling ethanol fuel have it in all three grades!! It will say it right on the pump. If the station you bought your gas that had water in it doesn't sell ethanol blended gas, then you just plain got gas with water in it! The in ground tank was low and the pump picked it up! It been a problem since before ethanol fuel!!
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Here in NY the pumps are labeled E and Non E with the the percentage of E , a few stations here carry Non E-high high test ,
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Here's a little more info on ethanol in premium gas!!
https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/bid/110140/Does-premium-gas-have-ethanol-in-it
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Most stations selling ethanol fuel have it in all three grades!! It will say it right on the pump. If the station you bought your gas that had water in it doesn't sell ethanol blended gas, then you just plain got gas with water in it! The in ground tank was low and the pump picked it up! It been a problem since before ethanol fuel!!
premium is the Non-ethanol fuel at the pumps here/at gas stations in my area. So yes you are correct, there was water in the fuel. yes it has been a problem before ethanol fuel. Yes we have plenty of choices from e85-premium with no ethanol. Each is labeled. Best fuel for the most mileage I found was E-30. Actually got better mileage then the regular non ethanol.
All I'm trying to get at is anytime someone has a problem they seem to blame ethanol. There were small engine and engine issues before ethanol. Are some caused from ethanol, I'm sure some are. However not every problem is due to ethanol like some seem to believe. Maybe we just have better grades of fuel in my area, but I've ran E-10 in everything and haven't had any problems. Anytime you store stuff for a period simple maintenance and storage prep go a long way. I'm guilty of not doing either, but I've never had a problem either.........
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Agronomist could you be a farmer or ethanol producer? The facts are starting to come out on ethanol, such as there is little proof that there is any savings in pollutants one study says it takes a gallon of petrol to produce each gallon of ethanol, It plugs catalytic converters. It also drys out rubber and removes plasticizers from plastic. We have had problems with gasoline since they took lead out and started adding all kinds of chemicals like mt be.
Having been a mechanic for more than 42 years I have seen the damage this garbage does to fuel systems and engines. Always follow the money and you will see why this is in our fuel, IE farm lobby buying their into our fuel instead of our food, taught the other countries how to raise their own grain now have to figure out somewhere to use it. We will get 15% jammed in our tanks because we use less fuel to day than before. Very few small engines
can use it without ill effects including outboards and motorcycles.
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Agronomist could you be a farmer or ethanol producer? The facts are starting to come out on ethanol, such as there is little proof that there is any savings in pollutants one study says it takes a gallon of petrol to produce each gallon of ethanol, It plugs catalytic converters. It also drys out rubber and removes plasticizers from plastic. We have had problems with gasoline since they took lead out and started adding all kinds of chemicals like mt be.
Having been a mechanic for more than 42 years I have seen the damage this garbage does to fuel systems and engines. Always follow the money and you will see why this is in our fuel, IE farm lobby buying their into our fuel instead of our food, taught the other countries how to raise their own grain now have to figure out somewhere to use it. We will get 15% jammed in our tanks because we use less fuel to day than before. Very few small engines
can use it without ill effects including outboards and motorcycles.
Yes I produce ethanol. Yes I sell ethanol. I also raise milk (dairy), cattle (beef), hogs (pork) and row crops. I'm sure you can tell me how every one of those has ruined the American people's lives, by poison or something else. We are use to hearing B.S. like it every day.
The "studies" you talk of call pollutants CO2 and water vapor. If you Don't know those are the two building blocks we need for life. without CO2 and water plants can't make carbon sugar chains. However, they are labeled pollutants. The exact same "pollutants" come from you with every exhaled breath. So If you can't stand to be in a room with others exhaling pollutants.....I can see your point. Ethanol can be spilled and breaks down fast causing nearly zero impact environmentally. We've had rail cars that crashed and leaked in rivers......environmen tal impacted maybe a few drunk fish......Dump a load of gas/disel/crude and it would be environmental disaster.
Early in production with a lot of plants it took 1 unit energy to produce 1.2-1.5 units of energy. It wasn't a great return. Today at my local ethanol plant for every unit we get back 3 units. I'd say that's a pretty good return. 😮 I've had to fill out the paper work for the Europeans so they could show the "green" energy worked. Now besides getting the 3units we also get feed grade ingredients to feed animals to produce food besides energy. nothing goes to waste. Sounds like you don't understand that we are using a bushel of corn to produce energy (ethanol) and have basicly 1/3 of it left after we produce ethanol to feed to livestock. It is a pretty good deal.
Now, I don't disagree there are some issues with using ethanol currently. However it is nothing we can't make some changes to things to fix. Lead pipes for drinking water were also great at one time vs copper or pvc pipes.
What is Ironic is we have figured out how to turn plant material into a cumbustible fuel for energy, which can be used in the combustible engine. We can do this all in less then about 10months...People complain and fight about it because it's not like using the crude oil created from plants that took millions of years to create, which gives of truely toxic pollutants like carbon monoxide and other things. It's not clean like nuclear that leaves toxic residue for millions of years......Yeah CO2 and water vapor (rain) are terrible.
Oh yes the evil "farmers" lobbied into your fuel.....lmao. We found a way to produce energy for Americans while also producing food. We took a bushel of grain and used it produce a few gallons of ethanol and some meat for your table instead of just producing the meat. We became more efficient like we have for the last 60yrs. In fact we have became so efficient that we actually made some money for about 3yrs. Today we have record ethanol production, record food production, and prices so low a lot of us will be working for nothing this year. The few ethanol plants that were owned local and giving money to the communities ended up having a lot of them pushed into forced buyouts buy large petroleum companies with hostile takeovers. Yeah it doesn't work..,that's why big oil is buying them up.
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Thank you for the table fare, illustrious intruder from Iowa.
Be forewarned your product looks to begin the phase-out/death in as little as thirteen years.
The "infernal" combustion engine has been on the chopping block since 1969 and it's days are numbered.
QUOTES FROM THE LINK BELOW:
" In 1969 the California State Senate rejected — by one vote — a bill by then State Senator, later Congressman, Anthony Beilenson, to ban the sale of cars powered by internal combustion engines. Beilenson’s bill, motivated by a conviction that California’s critical air pollution crisis could not be solved by gasoline powered autos, has stood for almost half a century as an example of environmental over-reach. "
" Now technology trends, public insistence, industry investment, and government policy are all signaling that Beilenson’s dream — an end to the burden of a transportation system powered by exploding gasoline or diesel combustion engines — is coming within grasp. "
" Governments all over the world — California, the Netherlands, Britain, Germany among them — are considering outright bans on the sale of internal combustion engines. (A month ago Norway almost implemented its proposed 2025 ban.) More immediately, Germany, South Korea, Sweden and China are aggressively increasing incentives for EV’s. India’s car manufacturers have joined with the government to phase out IC passenger vehicles by 2030. "
See the article HERE (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-pope/the-internal-combustion-e_b_10928278.html)
Enjoy it while you can.
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just one little disagreement. If you dump a bunch of ethanol in a river, the fish don't get drink. They die. It's not like they are hangin at the corner pub or something, they are breathing the stuff not drinking it. A spill like that doesn't have a zero or even near zero environmental impact. Just saying.
Now, I have absolutely nothing against alternative fuels. I just won't bury my head in the sand and pretend there won't be problems along the way to a better fuel. Personally, I don't see ethanol fuels as a good choice though. It really doesn't do anything to solve the problem and only causes more problems.
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Some gas stations in my state still have a 87 octane non-ethanol. I think it is Kum and Go and some Casey's, but not all. I never use ethanol in any small engine.
It's a good way to buy equipment thou. I bought a Honda eu2000 generator from a guy who left ethanol in it, it would not run right, would surge up and down. I paid much less for it than i planned and then took it home and spent 20 minutes cleaning the carb, good as new.
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Just because someone is a farmer doesn't mean that you all like ethanol. I agree with Spider1. I'm for alternatives if they make sense.
Ethanol threw the whole agriculture industry on its ear. Fertilizer, herbicide and inputs increased nearly 3 fold when this was instituted (along with crop prices increasing 3 fold). Everything escalated: land rent prices, equipment, etc. Then it came down.... Idk....
Right now, (in my humble opinion), alternative fuels, energy need to be propped up with govt subsidies to make it affordable and I think if something was good enough, private industry would invest in it without govt intervention. I didn't mean to get political, and now am open to bashing I'm sure.....
And I don't think we need to get bash the guy from Iowa
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just one little disagreement. If you dump a bunch of ethanol in a river, the fish don't get drink. They die. It's not like they are hangin at the corner pub or something, they are breathing the stuff not drinking it. A spill like that doesn't have a zero or even near zero environmental impact. Just saying.
Now, I have absolutely nothing against alternative fuels. I just won't bury my head in the sand and pretend there won't be problems along the way to a better fuel. Personally, I don't see ethanol fuels as a good choice though. It really doesn't do anything to solve the problem and only causes more problems.
Ethanol is an alcohol, if fish absorb it into the blood stream it could intoxicate them. By breathing it through gills in could get into the blood stream. The little impact that would be a possible for a fish kill would be from the concentration smothering fish, other then that the breakdown of the alcohol makes for a pretty non toxic fuel. A couple of ethanol plants even make liquor instead of fuel, that you might have drank yourself. Sounds like pretty toxic stuff.......
I'm not in disagreement that other alternative fuels won't come along, and that there won't be problems. However, the world runs on the combustible engine & will need fuel for quite some time. While the ethanol market won't last forever, other markets will replace it.
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Best fuel for the most mileage I found was E-30. Actually got better mileage then the regular non ethanol.
This thread wasnt started for a MPG discussion in vehicles. It was about small engines and ethanol. Last I checked most small engine owners weren't worried about MPG in their riding lawn mower.
However, the world runs on the combustible engine & will need fuel for quite some time. While the ethanol market won't last forever, other markets will replace it.
Yup just need to get rid of the mandates and subsidies and let ethanol support itself if its such a viable solution.
I have never had any luck with ethanol in any of my small engines. I immediately notice my riding lawn mower runs terrible. Noticeable less power etc. with e10. Put any fuel with no ethanol it and it just purrs and runs fantastic.
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Ethanol is an alcohol, if fish absorb it into the blood stream it could intoxicate them. By breathing it through gills in could get into the blood stream. The little impact that would be a possible for a fish kill would be from the concentration smothering fish, other then that the breakdown of the alcohol makes for a pretty non toxic fuel. A couple of ethanol plants even make liquor instead of fuel, that you might have drank yourself. Sounds like pretty toxic stuff.......
I'm not in disagreement that other alternative fuels won't come along, and that there won't be problems. However, the world runs on the combustible engine & will need fuel for quite some time. While the ethanol market won't last forever, other markets will replace it.
There have been fairly large Ethanol spills along the Mississippi River (Wisconsin) that do not cause fish kills for the exact reasons you're mentioning. It takes a high concentration of ethanol to impact plants and animals with lethal results.
I would wager that the inefficiencies in producing Ethanol are strictly based on producing the fuel - it does not take into account the useful co-products such as corn starch, corn syrup, corn oil, distillers grains, maltodextrins, etc. These co-products are used in nearly everything you consume, buy or own - medicines, cosmetics, rubber products, adhesives, foods, soft drinks, plastics, shoes, coats, fabric dies, inks, cat litter, animal feed, etc. Most Ethanol plants producing food grade product are producing fuel grade Ethanol at extremely high qualities - much higher quality fuel than what a fuel grade gasoline refinery lets leave the door.
For anyone who says "OMG ethanol is terrible in engines" simply don't use it. You can buy non-ethanol fuel, even premixed for 2 stroke use, off the shelf at nearly any walmart.
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There won't be any drunk fish. Any industrial made ethanol is "denatured" meaning it is not fit to consume. Thus no spirits/provisions alcohol taxes have been paid on it. So that could cause the fish toxicity, not sure. The Wiki definition is; "Denatured alcohol, also called methylated spirits or denatured rectified spirit, is ethanol that has additives to make it poisonous, bad tasting, foul smelling or nauseating, to discourage recreational consumption. In some cases it is also dyed"
Regardless, I avoid it in my small engines. My perception is letting it sit around causes the problem. I think it would be fine if you were going to use all the fuel in a short time like we typically do our automobiles.
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There won't be any drunk fish. Any industrial made ethanol is "denatured" meaning it is not fit to consume. Thus no spirits/provisions alcohol taxes have been paid on it. So that could cause the fish toxicity, not sure. The Wiki definition is; "Denatured alcohol, also called methylated spirits or denatured rectified spirit, is ethanol that has additives to make it poisonous, bad tasting, foul smelling or nauseating, to discourage recreational consumption. In some cases it is also dyed"
Regardless, I avoid it in my small engines. My perception is letting it sit around causes the problem. I think it would be fine if you were going to use all the fuel in a short time like we typically do our automobiles.
I can't speak for all ethanol plants, but at our local one they add a small amount of fuel with it to every rail tanker to "denature" it.
The following link talks about how some ethanol plants are producing both. I do get a chuckle about having "organic" grade vodka......I mean nothing like trying to market a "healthy" vodka.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/6699/ethanol-to-drink/
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Yup just need to get rid of the mandates and subsidies and let ethanol support itself if its such a viable solution.
I have never had any luck with ethanol in any of my small engines. I immediately notice my riding lawn mower runs terrible. Noticeable less power etc. with e10. Put any fuel with no ethanol it and it just purrs and runs fantastic.
Um...most of the subsidies have been pulled. There are still some in place for companies and people to upgrade equipment and things to use it. It is a viable solution and works in the market place. If it wasn't then why does Europe buy and import large amounts of it. Why does California import it large amounts of it from Brazil. The mandates were a joke the oil industries used way over the mandate amounts every year, the political Hacks jumped on the wagon upping the mandates to levels lower then what was being used to act like they were pushing something to their base when it was happening regaurdless of the mandate.
If your mower runs like crap and you haven't been able to make ethanol work in a small engine, then you need to find a place with decent fuel. It is no secret that oil companies have been blending the high octane ethanol with poor quality low grade fuel that won't burn correctly in a motor alone. Since the high octane ethanol burns hotter it brings the low octane fuel up to a high enough octane to a level where it will burn and work in a motor. It sounds like your getting a really crappy cheap blend that doesn't have enough octane to burn smoothly.
Hence why e-30 fuel tends to give the best preformance in a lot of motors. The ethanol makes the fuel burn hot enough that it almost burns 100% giving the best fuel efficiency. Normal fuel alone doesn't completly burn. Hence why there are fuel additives on the market that are nothing more then just high octane ethanol to help sluggishly running motors run butter.
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to help sluggishly running motors run butter.
So, does butter lube the top end?
Or are you on the sauce again?
Is everyone aware what octane helps with is preventing "pre-ignition " in high compression engines?
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The thread started out how to test or remove ethanol, and went way off kilter when Agronomist tried to sell us on ethanol like a politician. Let the market decide what we want to use, not what is forced upon us. Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it will pull moisture out of the air. Try a little experiment pour a pint of gas in a shallow pan on a humid day and see what happens, this is why you don't want this crap in your fuel tank on your boat or in your unsealed fuel can in the garage. Agronomist I make less money when people take my advise to avoid ethanol in fuel so I have nothing to gain but more satisfied customers. You on the other hand at every opportunity try to sell us on the benefits of ethanol for your financial gain or to brain wash more sheeple. I have no way of testing the quality of fuel any more than you do, so the only way I can guarantee results is to avoid the things I know create trouble.
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The thread started out how to test or remove ethanol, and went way off kilter when Agronomist tried to sell us on ethanol like a politician. Let the market decide what we want to use, not what is forced upon us. Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it will pull moisture out of the air. Try a little experiment pour a pint of gas in a shallow pan on a humid day and see what happens, this is why you don't want this crap in your fuel tank on your boat or in your unsealed fuel can in the garage. Agronomist I make less money when people take my advise to avoid ethanol in fuel so I have nothing to gain but more satisfied customers. You on the other hand at every opportunity try to sell us on the benefits of ethanol for your financial gain or to brain wash more sheeple. I have no way of testing the quality of fuel any more than you do, so the only way I can guarantee results is to avoid the things I know create trouble.
There are a lot of benefits. Those benefits gain consumers and the environment. It's your choice to choose ignorance towards them. Just because you've had a bad experience with a product and have decided against it doesn't make it a bad product. If you don't want to use it, don't.
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Again a politician answer. In most case consumers dont have a choice, it is forced on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Because it benefits you we are less smart than you. Google ethanol ruined my chainsaw or mower, outboard and see the results. I believe the university of Mich study says the early test results were flawed and pollutants are about the same. We all have our beliefs mine are not steered by money, I have nothing to gain. If I owned a ethanol plant I would have all the answers as it sounds like you have been preaching whats best for us for some time (experienced).
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Again a politician answer. In most case consumers dont have a choice, it is forced on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Because it benefits you we are less smart than you. Google ethanol ruined my chainsaw or mower, outboard and see the results. I believe the university of Mich study says the early test results were flawed and pollutants are about the same. We all have our beliefs mine are not steered by money, I have nothing to gain. If I owned a ethanol plant I would have all the answers as it sounds like you have been preaching whats best for us for some time (experienced).
How is it "forced" on people. Must be different in your area. Just about every gas station in my area has non ethanol fuel avalible for the consumers. I don't understand where you came up with the theory that because I support ethanol and the many benefits it has brought to our nation that it makes you less intelligent then myself. If you took my attempts to try and further education about ethanol in that way, then you took it the wrong way.
I haven't disagreed that when people use the product wrong that issues can happen. Education on using the product can pretty much eliminate issues. I don't have an ethanol plant. I do tend to have a lot of truthful non bias factual data that I've been given to show many of the benefits of ethanol. Do I know it all...no. Nor do I know what's best for you. I would however recommend you use non ethanol fuel because it seems to difficult for you to handle using it correctly.
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Wow. This topic is always a touchy one. From my perspective I see lots of ethanol misinformation and band wagon drum beating. It's funny because everyone of you that have had "motors ruined by ethanol" I have had no such experiences in 30 years.
Erie is right. Where I live we have no choice. It has been forced upon us. I do find ethanol preferable to the MBTE they started with here in SE WI.
Sure, we can get "premium" non-E most places but my big outboard does not do well with higher octane fuel. It runs too cool and THAT gums things up. I have had ZERO trouble with ANY of my small motors and ethanol (regular 87): two mowers, weed whacker, snowblower, two chainsaws and two rototillers. I believe its: A.) I always use a fuel additive (I have had good results with Seafoam, Stabil, Stabil marine, Stabil 360 and Startron to name a few) and B.) I never use old gas. If I don't empty my big cans every month the balance gets poured into something that can take it and use it; truck, car, tractor and it gets burned up. Problem solved. I think it's silly to buy premium gas for a small motor just to get away from ethanol.
Ethanol is proven to be hard on rubber that comes in contact with it. Most late model stuff is made with ethanol resistant fuel lines etc. but older stuff can suffer that degradation with constant use and no maintenance. Take my 1994 120hp Johnny for example. I bought it in 2004 and when the OIL PUMP needed maintenance in 2010 I took the liberty of replacing the original fuel line with E-resistant line before I had issues. I also let ALL of my small motors sit off season with at least a half, if not full tank of E-gas. Season rolls around, pour it out and start with fresh. This keeps carb seals/gaskets from drying out. Sometimes I'll try and start 'em just to see if they will. Most of the time it's surprisingly easy.
I'm no politician. I'm just a regular guy that doesn't have ethanol issues. I must be blessed. Or maybe I've just figured out how to deal with it before something "gets wrecked".
It's not hard guys. Agronomist, I'm in your camp on this one. I refused to be the parrot and buy into the "I don't want it so it's got to be bad" deal.
Besides, I really don't have a choice but to make it work. A little common sense goes a long way. I keep waiting for something bad to happen to one of my little motors. It's been 30 years of ethanol and I ain't gettin' any younger. Maybe not in my lifetime...
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My 2 cents. I have been a mechanic for 41 years. Worked on engines as small as cox 049 and ad big as v12 cat diesels. In that time I have seen what ethanol does to ANY carbureted engine. It ruins the entire fuel system. Anything rubber gets ate. Tygon gets brittle. Fuel pumps are corroded and ruined. Fuel consumption goes up. Power goes down. In fuel injected engines it is o.k except for less power and less mileage. This crap of non ethanol costing more is a huge rippoff. Ethanol is ADDED to refined fuel. Why charge more when you get less? Because you are getting 10% or more gasoline. All of our newer small engines at the shop come with a warning. DO NOT USE ETHANOL FUEL. Some will even void warrantee
There is NO good effects from ethanol. No not even in whiskey or whatever liquor. Not here to argue with anyone. Just to give a little advice. Don't use ethanol fuel in anything with a carburetor. Pay the little extra for ethanol free. And in small motors or 2 strokes it does not need to be premium. Compression is low enough so regular will be fine. Steve
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But that's the issue Steve, in many areas (think the highly industrialized locales surrounding the Great Lakes) it has been Federally mandated to use RFG (Reformulated Gas). The cost is (again) dictated by the Federales. The only non-RFG choice is to pay a premium price for unnecessary (in most cases) premium fuel. It's been that way 'round here since the mid 70's. All in the name of mitigating CO2 pollution.
As far as fuel "additives", every refiner/company has their pet brew of "detergents and cleaners" so you will never get "just gas".
But you really got to the deal. Do your PMs and you should never have issues with ethanol. Is that more labor intensive? Yep. More costly? Definitely yep. Totally out of control and unmanageable? Sorry Champ, not for this cat....
Face it, how much do people neglect their stuff (even on non-ethanol, c'mon man, you've seen it) and depend on it to run and (by the grace of the small motor gods and guys like you) it does. Ethanol is the wrench in the works but not the demon. It can be well managed if you hold up your end of the log.
As far as mileage and power? There's a LOT more to it than that. It is FAR more dependent on the total fuel formulation than just the presence of ethanol or not. I always run 87 ethanol (rarely, rarely have a non-premium choice) in the truck where ever I go. Formulations in the north part of the state get me another 2 (sometimes 3) mpg with the same kind of driving. I've always called "Up North" gas "Rocket Fuel" because often it seems like just that. Never forget that fuel is a fluid recipe (pun intended) based on refiner and region and can vary widely even within an easily travellable geographic region.
Better look for the waders..... it gets deeper. :whistle:
Spoiler alert: I'll call the movement to make ethanol "evil" a ploy of the petroleum industry to regain what they have lost due to reformulation. I'm not much into conspiracy theory but this (to me) is very believable.
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Amen Backwoods, AAI and Esox you guys have figured out how to make it work for youselves, Good for you. But millions of engines tell a different story of ethanol effects. could we avoid some or most of them, probably with enough effort, But do most of us have time or knowledge to stop it, no. Do we auger all our holes with hand augers? Hell no: path of least resistance add power be it gas or electric. Esox you spoke of your older outboard not running on high test fuel. do you realize when you mix oil with gas you lower the octane rating of the fuel and the first outboard made to use ethanol was not brought to market until 2005, read the following link, https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/infographic-411-ethanol-fuel-and-ethanol-treatment. Even though I dont recommend a stabilizer in all cases, for some it is an absolute must. Now look up phase separation and the list goes on and on. Just like most debates they are endless, Backwoods and I both see the effects every day and if you can use ethanol so be it but for a strong economy and market place give us a choice even if higher price I will take ethanol free for less babysitting. My drum is broke you guys can beat yours forever, I have no dog in the fight. When the history is written on ethanol it will show to have been bad for even the farmers also.
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And that history began more than a few years ago. :woot: :roflmao: ;)2
(http://hipspics.freewebspace.com/gas/gas15.jpg)
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Just for the record, if I had a choice, I'd rather drink corn alcohol than have to burn it.... ;)2
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You always have a choice...you can buy non-ethanol gas and have it delivered to your door.
Most denatured alcohol has bitrex added - it has no impact on engines if you were to use bitrex denatured alcohol as a fuel
The TTB controls denaturing standards and nearly all other alcohol standards in the US
Fuel alcohol shipped direct from an ethanol plant to a gasoline facility does not need to be denatured. It is usually about 185-190 proof ethanol if I remember correctly. The remainder of the solution is typically other fermentation hydrocarbons and 1-2% water. This is high grade single pass distilled. Anything over 190 proof is multi pass or multi processed near anhydrous
the model t was designed to run on ethanol
Engines tailored to run on ethanol make more power than those using gasoline
Ethanol is required for synthetic rubber production - synthetic rubbers do not harden when exposed to ethanol - cheaply produced natural rubber doesn't like ethanol
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For years I would keep a gallon of 2 cycle for the season. Now it's just not worth it. the stuff goes stale in no time flat. It will run like crap after a month or so. Trll me. If E is so dam good then why is it not allowed by law to be used in aviation fuel. And here on the Ct. we can not get e free at the pump.
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For years I would keep a gallon of 2 cycle for the season. Now it's just not worth it. the stuff goes stale in no time flat. It will run like crap after a month or so. Trll me. If E is so dam good then why is it not allowed by law to be used in aviation fuel. And here on the Ct. we can not get e free at the pump.
Ethanol is used in aviation fuel. It hasn't been pushed has hard, and a lot of aircraft are older that need upgrades to safely use it. The technology is avalible, and will more then likely replace the lead additive.
http://www.theenergycollective.com/jemiller_ep/235571/draft-why-doesn-t-epa-replace-leaded-aviation-gasoline-renewable-ethanol
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Talked to the mechanics at k.I sawyer airport. Asked about ethanol in av gas. Answer was "NO". Up here with our extreme cold winters it won't work. Ethanol attracts water. Result frozen fuel systems. That is from mechanics who work on them. Every winter I see vehicles towed in from a no start or died going down the road. These get pushed in and put up on hoist. 90% of the time its a frozen fuel filter. A lot of vehicles have filter in tank (very stupid idea) they sit in shop overnight to thaw out. A bottle of dry gas usually does the trick. Maybe they are trying ethanol in av gas. Seems like quite a few planes just fall out if the air lately. Just joking. In bad taste too. From what I read into the story. They want to get rid of the lead in av gas. Lead is mostly a lubricant. Does help valves and valve seats. Think back when we had lead in gas. We would wash our hands with it. Do that with ethanol and it takes all the oil off your skin and makes them sore. I kind of think we are kicking a dead horse here. Those of us who have to fix what it destroys, know its not good in carbureted engines. Those who produce and sell it, have to try to convince otherwise. Use it if you want or have to. Because in the end it makes me money too (sadly). Steve
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Talked to the mechanics at k.I sawyer airport. Asked about ethanol in av gas. Answer was "NO". Up here with our extreme cold winters it won't work. Ethanol attracts water. Result frozen fuel systems. That is from mechanics who work on them. Every winter I see vehicles towed in from a no start or died going down the road. These get pushed in and put up on hoist. 90% of the time its a frozen fuel filter. A lot of vehicles have filter in tank (very stupid idea) they sit in shop overnight to thaw out. A bottle of dry gas usually does the trick. Maybe they are trying ethanol in av gas.
How does dry gas work?
Based on either methanol or isopropyl alcohol, dry gas rids the fuel system of water by binding to the water and then burning it all off in the combustion chamber. Because of alcohol’s extremely low freezing point, it also acts as antifreeze to water-contaminated gasoline.
So the solution to ethanol in the fuel is to add more alcohol? Did I miss something? It all works the same...
I don't get it.
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Talked to the mechanics at k.I sawyer airport. Asked about ethanol in av gas. Answer was "NO". Up here with our extreme cold winters it won't work. Ethanol attracts water. Result frozen fuel systems. That is from mechanics who work on them. Every winter I see vehicles towed in from a no start or died going down the road. These get pushed in and put up on hoist. 90% of the time its a frozen fuel filter. A lot of vehicles have filter in tank (very stupid idea) they sit in shop overnight to thaw out. A bottle of dry gas usually does the trick. Maybe they are trying ethanol in av gas. Seems like quite a few planes just fall out if the air lately. Just joking. In bad taste too. From what I read into the story. They want to get rid of the lead in av gas. Lead is mostly a lubricant. Does help valves and valve seats. Think back when we had lead in gas. We would wash our hands with it. Do that with ethanol and it takes all the oil off your skin and makes them sore. I kind of think we are kicking a dead horse here. Those of us who have to fix what it destroys, know its not good in carbureted engines. Those who produce and sell it, have to try to convince otherwise. Use it if you want or have to. Because in the end it makes me money too (sadly). Steve
That is the part where old aircraft need upgrades. I mean I wouldn't expect an old tube tv to work well with by 3D blue ray player.
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Isopropyl absorbs the water in system. It either evaporates and takes piusture with it or goes through fuel system and is burned in combustion process. . steve
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Alcohol is alcohol. Iso, methanol, ethanol doesn't make a difference. Absorb/attract water all the same.
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That is the part where old aircraft need upgrades. I mean I wouldn't expect an old tube tv to work well with by 3D blue ray player.
I agree, but it will take a lot to get that implemented by the FAA to allow the necessary changes to be made. Rubber lines, O-rings, rubber carburetor-injector parts, gas tank bladders and engines would all have to be addressed. The cost to an aircraft owner could potentially be overwhelming, new engines can cost as much as a luxury automobile.
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I agree, but it will take a lot to get that implemented by the FAA to allow the necessary changes to be made. Rubber lines, O-rings, rubber carburetor-injector parts, gas tank bladders and engines would all have to be addressed. The cost to an aircraft owner could potentially be overwhelming, new engines can cost as much as a luxury automobile.
They have to tear down aircraft after so many hours of flight and go threw them. The "upgrades" can't be that much since some are doing it.
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Alcohol is alcohol. Iso, methanol, ethanol doesn't make a difference. Absorb/attract water all the same.
The usual fix for long-term storage of ethanol fuel is to add a stabilizer, which will contain a high concentration of isopropanol. The main thing that will do is form an azeotropic mixture with water, meaning that its components will evaporate at the same rate, so when the isopropanol evaporates, it takes the water with it. This same mixture, in sufficient concentration, will also burn.
Drygas is just HEET fuel treatment - methanol or iso