IceShanty.com's Ice Fishing Community
IceShanty Main => General Ice Fishing Chit Chat => Topic started by: mdeutsch on Dec 31, 2010, 10:52 PM
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So the safety guy in me made me curious. Does my Mr. Buddy heater really shut down if a low oxygen level exists, and if so, at what point?
First a little background regarding oxygen levels and the effects on the human body:
20.9 percent: Percentage of oxygen found in normal air. No effect.
15-19 percent: Decreased ability to work strenuously. May
impair coordination and may induce early symptoms with individuals
that have coronary, pulmonary, or circulatory problems.
12-15 percent: Respiration and pulse increase; impaired
coordination, perception, and judgment occurs.
10-12 percent: Respiration further increases in rate and depth;
poor judgment and bluish lips occur.
8-10 percent: Symptoms include mental failure, fainting,
unconsciousness, an ash-colored-face, blue lips, nausea, and vomiting.
6-8 percent: 8 minutes - 100 percent fatal; 6 minutes - 50
percent fatal; 4-5 minutes - recovery with treatment.
4-6 percent: Coma in 40 seconds, convulsions, respiration
ceases - death
My concern was, does the Mr. Buddy shutdown before I am going to become so incapacitated that I can't escape from my shack? So, I put my safety committee guys to work. I gave them my trusted Mr. Buddy, a full tank of propane, a fifty-five gallon drum and a four-gas (LEL, O2, CO, H2S) air monitor. They lit the heater, placed it inside of a sealed drum and monitored the air with the monitor. In 90 seconds the oxygen level fell to 16% and Mr. Buddy shutdown. They repeated the experiment two more times with nearly identical results.
So in summary, the folks at Mr. Buddy did their homework and as I expected/hoped, put the proper safeguards in place to help keep their customers, my fellow ice fishing fanatics and myself alive.
Sorry for the really long post, but keep those shacks vented and let's make sure everyone has a great, safe season.
Happy New Year! :thumbsup:
Matt
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Thanks Matt I have always felt safe with my Mr. Buddy and that just reasures me.
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Nice to know. If I understand right the buddies have a low Ox sensor but doesnt do anything for C.O. and for well sealed shanties a Battery operated C.O. detector should be used. Is that correct ?
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Never had a problem man, the only way you have that kind of problem is if you have absolutely no ventilation in your shack at all. Every shack I've ever been in has plenty of vents. Unless you have a LOT of back pressure you have nothing to worry about.
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Thanks Matt, I feel reassured too. I have never doubted that it works. It has shut off numerous times while fishing with no noticeable effects. I just open up the shanty to get a big rush of fresh air and turn it on again. My concern is if the safety shutoff fails. I am not sure how the mechanisn works, and if it is fail-proof or not.
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There is no O2 sensor and the safety shut off is undeniably simple. When O2 levels lower there is a cooresponding shrinkage in the size of the pilot flame. When the flame shrinks down to a certain level, the thermocouple(temperature sensitive switch) deactivates, shutting off the fuel supply to the heater. Not enough O2 = no fuel to burn.
Don't Mess with the thermocouple! Mods made to the unit may just make it lethal.
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CopperJohn,
Thanks for the explanation. I wondered how that system worked, since any quality oxygen sensor I've ever seen costs several times the cost of the entire Mr. Buddy. Great advice about avoiding modifications to the thermocouple. Matt
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Excellent post sir. Now do your "boys" test flashers, augers and shacks? :tipup:
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GambOOler,
I caught enough grief for dragging the Mr Buddy into my office and doing what I did. I just told everyone it was in the name of personal safety for our employees. I don't know if I could make a similar case for a flasher! Maybe for an auger though because of the extremely dangerous sharp, rotating parts? Work just might be fun after all!
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Great post and thanks for the insight. Just another reason to visit IS every day.
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I know what you went thru! lol wife looked at me crazy as I calibrated my meter to check it out a few yrs ago One thing people on this site you will see modifications people made moving the thermocouple or making the guard to block the wind this changes the way the flame impinges on the thermocouple thus it is going to change the results defeating the sensor from a past post of mine:
if you move the thermocouple closer to the flame I in my own opinion changes the angle and may allow for a change in the operation of the ods
"It relies on the shift of a pilot flame away from a nozzle as the oxygen content of the combustion air decreases. A thermocouple is positioned so as to be in the flame during combustion at acceptable oxygen levels and in the unburned zone when the oxygen content is below an acceptable level."
Heater Safety (http://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=119639.0)
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Mainehazmt,
I assumed you had already put this to the test. I told my wife about what we did at work and she thought I was a geek. I told her "it was better to be a geek than be dead, now go do some laundry"
That last part might have just been in my head. Matt
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not a geek lol it is good practical training use care and calibration of the meters in industry they really dont get to see the full potential of the meters and what they can and will do what you did is excelent training and hopefully you documented that training by doing it your thinking outside of the box and can be helpful in meeting the required training I see meter usage confined space training just to name 2 subjects that could add to the required refresher training debrief on the results documentation heck theres 2 hrs right there
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Very nice post, I have a buddy and just assumed it was safe....now I'm re-assured. Thankyou. Smitty
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how does altitude affect the pilot burn? I fish at 4-6k ft. and was so unimpressed that I sold both units and am now using the sun flower. good post thank you.
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So what will kill you first, lack of O2 or CO poisoning? That's a good experiment for your safety guys.
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Dead is dead in my book. Probably more likely to get sick from CO poisoning over the course of a day though.
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Thanks a lot for sharing that man. I was not sure about this whole thing but understand it now. Before I just swung the door open a couple of times to get some fresh air.
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:tipup: ;D
Good Stuff..........thanks for the science experiment !!! so cool
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Dead is dead in my book. Probably more likely to get sick from CO poisoning over the course of a day though.
What I'm wondering is if you will be killed by CO poisoning before the O2 gets too low. If that's the case then there's a false sense of safety being propagated by this thread. That's why I suggested the experiment.
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get a digital co detector they are cheap now you can watch the numbers and apply it
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get a digital co detector they are cheap now you can watch the numbers and apply it
I was really surprised to see that some of the residential CO monitors don't alarm until around 300 ppm. In homes, many of these units are mounted out of direct line of sight and the readout isn't usually watched. Investing in of these units for in-shack use would be an excellent idea.
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How bout bringing a canary with you? ;D Nah he'd probably freeze first,..
Anyway I'm really sensitive to fumes. I use the Mr buddy heater but hate the smell from any combustion heater (not talking about low O2 or CO here)
For a while I thought about setting up a Zodi heater outside my Shapple but never got to do it and it probably would eat up a lot of fuel and have to be protected from wind. I purchased one and started on that project but never finished a set up,..
And then there is all the stuff I haul out to fish,..a game warden once said that he never saw a single guy that had so much stuff hauled onto the ice. (on my modified sled)
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How bout bringing a canary with you? ;D Nah he'd probably freeze first,..
And then there is all the stuff I haul out to fish,..a game warden once said that he never saw a single guy that had so much stuff hauled onto the ice. (on my modified sled)
dont feel alone I have wayyyy tooo much with me all the time lucky you could find one of those!!!
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I have my own personal monitor for work, after reading this thread I think I'll take it in the shanty with me the next time I fish.
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great to know! and a great heater I might add!
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Thats why I will bring a a CO det anyway at least for an overnighter. Better to have it an not need it than need it and not have it.