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Nebraska => Ice Fishing Nebraska => Topic started by: outdoorsman81 on Jan 28, 2013, 04:05 PM
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Planning a trip to valentine NWR, its been a while since I have fished there, was up this weekend and did not catch a thing, would like to get the kids on some pan fish, any help?
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Where did you fish this last weekend? Hackberry was alright, some decent gills and perch early in the morning. I also fished duck, kinda slow.
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It may take me awhile to get a report up, but we fished the Valentine Refuge last Saturday and did well, panfish and pike.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/ (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/)
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dont know if fish 98s post is true but if it is i would like an answer as well
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Pelican, Hackberry, and Duck are not a joke. Hack is a new renovation that has survived enormous pressure the last couple years and the other two have given up great fish this year. There are too many fisherman for those lakes to just keep pumping out lb. gills for everyone. Watts lost its big fish this year because its so low. I would wager Dewey has given up more two pound gills over the last 5 years than any public lake in the state. They are just low in number and most people who fish it have tip ups out.
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We were up at Dewey in late Sept what ever federal warden that we talked to to said eventually the goal was to drain all the lakes starting with pulling the boards at Dewey will cause the rest of the lakes to drain. His reason was no funds to maintain the lakes and somehow asian carp were introduced into clear lake .South Dakota was pulling gills out of Pelican for the past 10 yrs I have talked to there so called bioloigists taking eggs and shocking fish off the beds. And caught several gills with gps locators in them.There is a lot of BS going on at the Refuge.Why are they tearing down the main head quarters at Hackberry.What is going on at Big Alkali. Why have they cut all the trees down at Dewey,Hackberry,Pelican,Watts? For what reason to get rid of the Raptors?
?????????
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Not sure about the level of the lakes at the refuge but did fish other lakes in the area and they were all very low. I hope the state is not "trying anything" at the refuge. Lord knows they have messed up most other projects. I knew it wasn't good when the roads up there were improved. Figured it was the beginning of the end. To NGPC - just keep playing in the mud holes in the southeastern part of the state and stay out of the sandhills. This is God's country - leave it to him.
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Daryl can you explain why they took all the boards out at Dewey this fall and now all the lakes are so low?What is the reason behind this?Why has South Dakota been up at Pelican, Hackberry, Dewey , Duck, watts ,collecting bluegills perch, bass and pike for the past 10 years? Eggs and fry? All those lakes were great fisheries now they are a joke.
The biggest reason the sandhill lakes are low, including the lakes on the Valentine National Wildlife Refuge is lack of precipitation!
That was some limited water level manipulation last year for boat ramp improvements on several of the lakes.
South Dakota State University has been conducting fisheries research on the Valentine refuge lakes for a long time now. That research has included the collection of a variety of sizes and species of fish but there have been no eggs or fry removed. We have learned a lot through that research, our sandhill lakes and the fish communities in them are unique and special. One thing we have learned, again, is that fish populations are dynamic, always changing, there are big year-classes of fish produced and then small year-classes, fishing opportunities and success will always vary from year to year, and the current low water conditions are not helping any of the fish in those lakes. But . . . to characterize "all those lakes were great fisheries now they are a joke." is just plain BALONEY. Some of the best fishing in Nebraska and some of the best ice-fishing in the country is still found on those waters.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/ (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/)
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http://www.in-fisherman.com/2012/12/07/top-ice-fishing-panfish-spots/
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http://www.in-fisherman.com/2012/12/07/top-ice-fishing-panfish-spots/
Boom.
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We were up at Dewey in late Sept what ever federal warden that we talked to to said eventually the goal was to drain all the lakes starting with pulling the boards at Dewey will cause the rest of the lakes to drain. His reason was no funds to maintain the lakes and somehow asian carp were introduced into clear lake .South Dakota was pulling gills out of Pelican for the past 10 yrs I have talked to there so called bioloigists taking eggs and shocking fish off the beds. And caught several gills with gps locators in them.There is a lot of BS going on at the Refuge.Why are they tearing down the main head quarters at Hackberry.What is going on at Big Alkali. Why have they cut all the trees down at Dewey,Hackberry,Pelican,Watts? For what reason to get rid of the Raptors?
Again, a bunch more BALONEY!
I already told you the reasoning for some water level manipulations this past year, and there are plans to look at water level manipulations and renovations on a refuge wide basis in the future. But, there are no plans to drain the Valentine refuge lakes because of some lack of funding. You all know that Hackberry was recently renovated and other lakes may be renovated in the future, but there are no renovations planned right now and certainly no conspiracy to drain all the lakes.
Asian carp???? Again, BALONEY! Or at least that is BALONEY unless you consider common carp to be "Asian carp". Common carp have had a presence on the Valentine refuge longer than any of us have been around. The management of common carp has been a priority on the Valentine refuge for a long, long time, and will continue to be for a lot longer. Additional ability to manipulate water levels and perform rotenone renovations when needed will continue to maintain excellent water quality, habitat and fishing on the refuge for years to come and we are working with the U.S. Fish & Wildlife refuge staff to accomplish that.
Again, as I said before, South Dakota State University (SDSU) has been conducting fisheries research on the Valentine refuge lakes for the past several years. They have evaluated spawning habitat, reproduction and recruitment of bluegills and yellow perch and we know more about that in those sandhill lakes than we ever knew before. We know some of the mechanisms and factors that impact bluegill and perch recruitment and as is true with all research have come up with a bunch more questions. One thing I can tell you is that the recruitment of those species in Pelican Lake in recent years has NOT been lacking. There has been no taking of eggs or fry or removal of fish off their spawn beds; there has been sampling of those fish from early life stages, but no one is out there removing fish, eggs or fry. And even if there had been the recruitment of those fish in recent years has certainly not been impacted.
Likewise nobody put any "gps locators" in any bluegills. Several years ago there were some radio transmitters placed in Pelican Lake bluegills, but those had nothing to do with GPS technology. To locate the bluegills with those radio transmitters, SDSU researchers had to spend hours on the lake listening for the radio transmissions and then pinpointing the location of those fish. That research taught us a lot about the movement of those fish in Pelican Lake and specifically what spawning habitats they used. We learned that there was not a lack of spawning habitat.
Some of the rest of your questions would be best asked of the refuge staff. I would encourage you to pursue that, you can find contact information here, http://www.fws.gov/valentine/contactus.html (http://www.fws.gov/valentine/contactus.html) . I am not sure what renovations or rehabilitations might be in progress at the Hackberry Lake sub-headquarters. I do believe I heard something about some new headquarters or building over at the Pony Lake sub-headquarters.
Big Alkali is NOT part of the Valentine National Wildlife Refuge. Big Alkali is a Nebraska Game & Parks Commission wildlife area, what do you want to know about what is going on there?
Again you will have to ask the federal refuge staff about the tree clearing. I have no idea. But I do know that they have some specific wildlife management and habitat management objectives for the Valentine refuge and the removal of some of those trees are probably part of that. It may be to reduce the number of places where raptors can perch and then pick off upland birds, waterfowl or other wildlife, but again I would encourage you to talk that over with the refuge staff.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/ (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/)
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Not sure about the level of the lakes at the refuge but did fish other lakes in the area and they were all very low. I hope the state is not "trying anything" at the refuge. Lord knows they have messed up most other projects. I knew it wasn't good when the roads up there were improved. Figured it was the beginning of the end. To NGPC - just keep playing in the mud holes in the southeastern part of the state and stay out of the sandhills. This is God's country - leave it to him.
So, you would rather we did not help in sampling of the Valentine refuge lakes? Research? Regulation? Rotenone renovations and the subsequent fantastic fishing? Fish stocking? I ain't saying we are perfect, but we ain't messing up everything either.
I absolutely agree with you it is "God's country", but it is our responsibility to be good stewards of all of the state's fisheries resources, not just those in the more populated southeastern part of the state. And, by the way, those resources belong to all of us.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/ (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/)
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BAM!
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How bout them Huskers :cookoo:
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Just have to remember without them we wouldnt have much. You might not agree with everything they do but can you imagine if we didnt have them?
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Hate to tell ya but without the state & fed boys you ain't having much of a fishery at any V. Refuge lake or most Sandhill Lakes in general. Carp are the enemy and will decimate a lake if not controlled. Want to know why we caught huge gills and pike on Pelican in the late 80's, early 90's. It's because the state / feds got together and renovated it, killing the carp, allowing vegetation growth, and big fish were the result. Mother Nature also helped with some wet years about then as well.
Like this quote.
You all know that Hackberry was recently renovated and other lakes may be renovated in the future.
Personally I would rather see a complete renovation of several refuge lakes than a one lake at a time approach that allows carp to travel between water bodies during periods of high water. Maybe the feds manipulating water levels might have something to do with preventing carp movement in the future. ;) That would be a good thing for all of us.
It is a free country and we have the right to agree or disagree with whomever we so may choose. I've been ice fishing state and federal fisheries over the last 2 months in this part of the Sandhills and believe the NE G&P is greatly responsible for my success. Wish they had additional funding for other much needed renovations during these low water years where carp kills are most effective.
dc
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Hell your so smart, I think you ought to run for President.
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I think anytime the government comes in to make things better..it get's worse.
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Well beings we have fished together who the heck are you or at least a hint like where you are from.
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fish98, we certainly agree on a couple of things including carp are here to stay.
I've only heard stories of the V. Refuge pre 80's. One thing is for sure, access is not near the adventure it once was. Can't imagine what the bounce was like 40 + years ago. :)
My opinion is based on personal experience and obviously so is yours. Interested to hear of any solutions you have other than lake renovation for controlling common carp in Sandhill lakes.
dc
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Now I understand. Exploitation of accessible V. Refuge lakes has changed fish dynamics within the system. And I would agree with that.
Would you be in favor of total C&R on the Valentine Refuge if it meant catching fish like back in the 70's?
dc
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.Goes to show you how over educated idiots that think they know everything from books don't know s%^&*.
Yup
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Now I understand. Exploitation of accessible V. Refuge lakes has changed fish dynamics within the system. And I would agree with that.
Would you be in favor of total C&R on the Valentine Refuge if it meant catching fish like back in the 70's?
dc
Couldn't agree more and would love to see 100% c&r on the refuge. If u feel the need to eat some panfish hit the interstate ponds that are very much accessible...nothing wrong with fillets off a 6-7" gill or perch other than not much there but nobody is going complain if dragging limits out of those lakes. Not to mention they are much easier for G & P to manage due to their location. I'm also in favor of slot/size limits on pannies on all the Nebraska waters and C&R only on the federal refuges! If we had large natural lakes like other states I would feel differently but our small few hundred acre lakes just can't handle the fishing pressure put on them with the current regs! I am convinced that our precious sandhill lakes are only going to decrease in quality and quantity of panfish...regardless of what the controlling authorities doif there isn't some serious changes in possession limits and the sizes of those fish harvested. This whole subject matter saddens me and pi$$es me off. I really wish there was a way we could convince the ones in control to see the problems that are present!! If anybody has some intelligent suggestions I'm all ears.
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I'd love to see a slot limit to make some trophy panfishing opportunities. One gill over 9 and one perch over 12 inches... Mmmmmmm sweet dreams of the elusive 2 pounders!!!
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Dude. Maybe they didnt kill ALL the pike and carp on hack. But i personally find it hard to argue the success of the renovation. Ive probly only fished it two or three times.since the reno. But when you go out there and have to park behind the dozens of rigs and you know its getting hit hard dang near every day if ice on. You know they must have got something right. You also blame ngfp for exploitative ion and advertising? Look at the times. The industry is booming with new products like flashers cameras gps augers andhuts and more bells and whistles than most people know what to do with. Ice fishing is advertised more than everbefore. And way easier for most. Do you think john and joan at the raine motel or many other retailers here in vtown dont love the recreational dollars spent here. Hate to say it as there are things the gfp do that cause me to wonder but id.be for.a.complete.reno oit there
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I am with ryno and phish on this one as well, I know that I have been told by biolagists that all lakes in nebraska are put and take fisheries, they simply are expected to stock them so that they can be harvested. If this is the case they are lacking doing so in some or one off the most desirable places to fish in our state . If you look at all the stocking reports it seems as though the more populated eastern half of the state receives most of this attention yet these guys from down there would prefer to drive five hours to come out here. There was an individule that renovated and or stocked several lakes out west here 5 to 7 years ago and are allready getting pounded out in a short period of time.
I would like an explanation on these things here , are the vnwr lakes in a cycle where its not been there turn to be stocked ?
are there not enough fish to put in these lakes ? are they simply spending to much money on needless things such as docks and boat ramps and smooth roads ? ( seems to me that we did just fine with out those things back in the day ) are we going to have nice bathrooms in the near future ?
If so who will be there to use these things if you cant catch fish there ?
Please feel free to comment Daryl, or who ever may have the answer's to these questions .
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I would love for some of the refuge lakes to be turned into trophy fisheries. Put size restrictions on several species to grow monster panfish.
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The idea of Trophy lake would be nice. It could be possible if people make a grass roots effort to promote the idea. What are the chances Darrel?
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Well guys just my two cents I have been fishing the nvwr for many years and it started out that you only seen and couple people well times have changed and now many people ice fishing is not as hard core as it used to be with shacks elec and modern tools so back to the question if a bunch of people fish a lake and keep fishing it hard all winter and take there limit and sometime they take more what do you think is going to happen hell I am suprised them lake held up for as long as they did
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In order to recruit more people to the great outdoors accessibility has been marked as one of the key factors. I may not have been fishing the refuge as long as many of you but in my short 15 years of being up there the accessibility of the lakes as drastically changed. 15 years ago 4 wheel drive was needed. Now we see vans and cars back in the there all the time. Thus increasing the amount of people using the resource. There have always been articles about the refuge lakes. Go back through old Nebraskaland magazines and you will see the evidence. One of the biggest contributors to the spread of information are internet forums such as this one. There will always be people exploitng the resource and this issue is just going to get worse. I am in favor of a slot or total catch and release for the refuge lakes or even cycle the lakes as catch and release for two years on one lake then change.
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I've been fishing the refuge since the 80s, and one of the first years (appr 85?) we got there about sunup, and there were already 50 vehicle sitting in the parking lot, with plates from every state bordering as well as Ne. Can't even imagine the number of gills over 1 lb I've caught, and I was lucky enough to see a 2 lb 13 oz gill one day. I've missed the last couple years, and will agree with most that the fishing success has diminished, but the last trip up there, we caught 12 - 13 inch perch, and numerous 1 lb gills, along with pike just as we've done every year we've traveled up there. Caught fish on Dewey, Pelican, Watts, Hackberry, Duck, and West Long. It's been a great fishery, and it's seen pressure, as long as I know. I've never caught a carp in all those years, but I've only fished on the ice, if that makes a difference. It would be hard to imagine that there aren't any in there? I'm for whatever works, and in what is close to 30 years now, seems as though it's been working. Actually enjoy hearing how poor the fishing is up there, because that means empty parking lots!
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Actually enjoy hearing how poor the fishing is up there, because that means empty parking lots!
x2
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The thought of C & R or slot limits is putting a smile on my face. :) :) I've been to the refuge lakes 8 times this winter. I go to get away from work, phones and computers. I like to catch big fish. I don't care to bring any home to eat. I prefer the taste of beef. I enjoy supporting our ranchers and farmers. I was there from first ice and there 1 week ago. During 5 of those trips I witnessed the same group of people (5 or 6) catching their limits of bluegill once or twice a day. I think that we are in a sad state of affairs if that is our attitude toward such a precious fishing resource. I really question their respect and integrity towards the sport of fishing. I've fished the refuge lakes for the past 45 years. My fishing has been as good as ever during the past 3 years. It seems to me that the more fish I release the more I catch. A successful fishing trip isn't measured by numbers as much as by the quality of just one good fish. Pictures last a lifetime. Great discussion here. I like what I'm hearing.
jscott
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Wow, again I am amazed and saddened. I suppose I should just let some things go, but there are more things that need to be said. So, let me try, again . . . .
More B.S from the state and feds that try to run things. I have fished on the Valentine refuge for 45 yrs and I know a lot of GP people and feds that work up there and thru the years. I was the on pelican when SDSU was shocking bluegills to take back to there state10 or 12 yrs ago.I was on hackberry when 4 yrs ago when the state was shocking fish to put in blue lake and was told by the bioligists that thats where the were going.What about the dumb ass fed biologistyears ago that put the 28 inch and under limit on pike and he was gone the next year.Before all the lakes up there had a huge amount of trophy pike now you are lucky to see one.Drought my ass they the feds purposly pulled the boards this fall to drain those lakes I was there this weekend and they finally put some boards in they are 2 o 3 short from the top but Dewey at the east end is a pathitic mud hole at best.Why cut all the trees down?
You can call me a liar. You would not be the first and I don't care. All I got to say is BALONEY!
I have fished the Valentine refuge lakes for darned near as long as you claim, have worked for the Nebraska Game & Parks Commission for going on 25 years and have been familiar with the South Dakota State University research conducted on our Nebraska sandhill lakes since it started.
There have been no bluegills shocked from the refuge lakes and taken back to South Dakota.
We did renovate Hackberry back in 2004 and some fish may have been salvaged from there prior to that chemical renovation. However none of those fish went to Blue Lake, we did not own Blue Lake at that time and it was not until 2008 when it was renovated and re-stocked.
The 28-inch maximum length limit on northern pike on the Valentine NWR has been in effect for going on 20 years now. If it was such a "dumb ass" idea it would have been removed a long time ago. That regulation has been in place because some of the SDSU research has shown that northern pike can be effective at controlling carp numbers. That control occurs when the carp are less than 1-year of age, but even then because the carp grow so rapidly, relatively large pike, fish 28 inches and larger, are needed to eat those young carp. Research has also indicated that most of that carp predation occurs in the fall and under the ice.
I already told you the story about water levels on the Valentine refuge this year. Again, call me a liar. I don't care.
Likewise, I told you that I know nothing about wildlife or land management on the refuge, you contact the refuge staff and ask them why they are removing the trees. I will tell you though, and you can go off on this too, that they have their reasons, might not be good enough for you, but they have their reasons.
Daryl since you work at the NE GP what is going to happen to big Alkali are the cabins coming out who is going to run it now that Andy is gone? To me the state has screwed up every good lake in this state. You shock fish during the spawn that has to have an effect on them. You move fish from great fisheries to lakes back east. The state leases lakes stocks them then advertises them to be over run and then the land owners shut them down. Way to run the game and parks. All it takes is common sense not what taught in college.I can't wait to see how the will continue to mess up Big Mac.
The camp at Big Alkali has always been run by private individuals. I do not know who might be operating it now. If there needs to be a new owner/operator spread the word, perhaps someone out there would take it on.
The only "shocking" of fish during the spawn that I can think of would be some collection of male walleyes while we are collecting walleye eggs that we need for stocking walleyes around the state. That shocking has no impact on the walleye populations in the waters in which we collect those fish, and even if it did, we stock walleyes back into all of those waters. Other than that, we do hardly any sampling of any species of fish with any gear while those fish are actively spawning.
The only moving of fish we do would be what I have already mentioned--the movement of some fish salvaged from waters that are to be renovated. When that is done we do not haul those fish any farther than we have to. There are no fish that are hauled from "out west", back "east". Well that is no fish are hauled from "out west" to "back east" unless you count the millions of fish from Nebraska State Fish Hatcheries that are transported and stocked all around the state.
I have always said that in Nebraska we need every bit of water possible to be available for our anglers to fish. We have and will continue to take advantage of opportunities to acquire ownership or access to new waters and develop quality fisheries on those waters. Yes, we will advertise those opportunities because we work for, are paid by, ALL Nebraska anglers. It would not be right for us to develop new fisheries on waters and then let only a few select anglers like yourself know about them. In this day and age, that is a moot point because with the internet and cell phones there are no secrets anyway. If there is a hot bite, people will be there. "Build it, and they will come"--Field of Dreams.
I will agree with you, successful fisheries management takes a lot of common sense as well as some college edumacation. Fortunately, we have a whole bunch of fisheries professionals in Nebraska that have a huge dose of both. Nevertheless, I look forward to hearing from you how we can keep from messing up McConaughy. Do you know some way to guarantee lots of water for McConaughy, every year?
sand billy in the 70s all the lakes were full of huge pike, bass , bluegill , perch, crappie with eyes as big as bottle caps , sacramento perch, trout, flatheads, bullheads , huge snapping turtles, bull frogs, ducks, geese ,swans,any bird that you can imagine. Most are long gone. But now the whole refuge is a mess because of a few people that think they know whats best for something they are not qualified to even be in charge of.They are always renovating the lakes up there to get rid of the carp and they never will it is a waste of money they did Hackberry and said all the carp and pike were gone last spring I caught a 12 pound pike and 2 carp over 15 on worms for perch. Pike and carp will survive most rotenone kills.So tak`e it for what you will but the state and feds are full of s$%# they have federal funds to spend and thats what they do they will never get rid of carp they were introduced into the American water ways by the govt in the 1800s to feed the masses and the are here to stay.
There actually is some truth in what you said. Common carp were introduced by lots of well-meaning officials hundreds of years ago because they thought they could feed the masses. That was the state of the science back at that time, but you are right, we will never be rid of common carp. So, we will always have to manage them and one of the most effective means of doing that is periodic rotenone renovations. Rotenone renovations on sandhill lakes can be a challenge because of all of the connected marshes, ditches, and wet meadows. In addition, the high accumulation of organic material in some areas can impact the effectiveness of the chemical. However, just because we may not eliminate every common carp from the face of the earth does not mean that a rotenone renovation has not been successful. We can knock back carp numbers significantly and develop dozens of years of excellent water quality, habitat conditions and fishing by knocking the carp back from time to time. That has been a successful management strategy and it will continue to be implemented.
Yep, proof of what I just said is the re-invasion of a few carp back into Hackberry Lake after it was last renovated. We have had some periods of high water since that renovation and when water levels are high in the sandhills, there can be a lot of connections to wet meadows, marshes and other lakes and you better believe fish like common carp are on the move under those habitat conditions. The pike in Hackberry now may have got there the same way, or we may have had some stinkin' bucket biologist illegally introduce those fish for us. Regardless, current fish population sampling on Hackberry indicates that the pike and a healthy population of largemouth bass are keeping carp numbers in check for now.
I see some discussion of special regulations for the refuge lakes for the purpose of trophy panfish management. Personally, as one pointy-headed fisheries biologist, I would be all for it and I have argued for that for a long time. Just understand that I am just one biologist and that you are just one group of anglers. We also hear from anglers who think the regulations we have now are too restrictive. So, what do we do? Most of the time we try to keep everyone happy and that is how we end up with regulations like we have now. If you want that changed, speak up and keep speaking up. It also does not hurt to keep spreading the word about catch & release/selective harvest and trying to change angler attitudes. The less folks in the "catch all you can and can all you catch" crowd the more likely we can implement some special regulations and manage for more than just bucket-fulls of panfish going home in the back of people's pickups.
I am with ryno and phish on this one as well, I know that I have been told by biolagists that all lakes in nebraska are put and take fisheries, they simply are expected to stock them so that they can be harvested. If this is the case they are lacking doing so in some or one off the most desirable places to fish in our state . If you look at all the stocking reports it seems as though the more populated eastern half of the state receives most of this attention yet these guys from down there would prefer to drive five hours to come out here. There was an individule that renovated and or stocked several lakes out west here 5 to 7 years ago and are allready getting pounded out in a short period of time.
I would like an explanation on these things here , are the vnwr lakes in a cycle where its not been there turn to be stocked ?
are there not enough fish to put in these lakes ? are they simply spending to much money on needless things such as docks and boat ramps and smooth roads ? ( seems to me that we did just fine with out those things back in the day ) are we going to have nice bathrooms in the near future ?
If so who will be there to use these things if you cant catch fish there ?
Please feel free to comment Daryl, or who ever may have the answer's to these questions .
Do any fish reproduce on their own?
Again I do not know which "biolagists" told you that all lakes in Nebraska are put-and-take fisheries, but that is simply BALONEY. Some species like largemouth bass and bluegill are very capable of maintaining their populations according to what the habitat can produce. Other than introductory stockings, we do very little stocking of largemouth bass or bluegills on any waters in the state. Likewise the northern pike on the Valentine Refuge lakes are very capable of maintaining their populations by natural reproduction and in fact the densities of northern pike in Nebraska's sandhill lakes have been documented to be as high or higher than any other pike waters on the planet. So, we do not need to stock pike there either. Yellow perch are also very capable of maintaining populations by natural reproduction and most of the perch stocking we do is introductory stocking into new waters or waters that have recently been renovated. However, we occasionally stock yellow perch even into sandhill lakes, even Valentine Refuge lakes when we believe those populations might need a little boost.
We stocked millions of fish in Nebraska waters last year from one corner of the state to the other. We are blessed to have five state fish hatcheries with crack staffs that most years produce every fish our fisheries managers request for stocking. There is not one part of the state nor one water body that has been neglected nor overlooked because we do not have enough fish to stock. Stocking strategies are determined according to management objectives based on water quality, water quantity, habitat conditions, fish communities, angler desires, some politics and a whole lot more. If we need to stock more fish on the Valentine Refuge we will stock more fish.
Personally I would rather see a complete renovation of several refuge lakes than a one lake at a time approach that allows carp to travel between water bodies during periods of high water. Maybe the feds manipulating water levels might have something to do with preventing carp movement in the future. That would be a good thing for all of us.
I wanted to use this quote last, because that is a great idea and one in which all of us stupid biologists at the Game & Parks and U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service are working towards. There has been recent research and surveys on the Valentine refuge in order to better understand water flow and connections between the lakes. That information will be used to perhaps install some different water control structures and fish barriers. That also should allow for more effective rotenone renovations and better management of common carp on the entire refuge. It may take some time to implement all of that, but we are excited about the future.
I have ice-fished the Valentine refuge lakes since I can remember, http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/2010/03/home-water/ (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/2010/03/home-water/), that has been a darned long time, going on 40 years now (yes, that means I am getting old). I have seen lots of fantastic, unbelievable fishing in that time. As is true with any fishery, any fish populations, have seen lots of ups and downs over those years too. Sure, some years have been better than others, the years following a string of renovations back in the 80's were unbelievable. Through it all, I have seen lots and lots of other anglers enjoying those resources. Yes, some of you won't believe it, but even back in the day of poor roads and "no advertising" there were still hundreds of anglers who somehow knew about the great fishing and were there to take advantage of it. Still are, and those waters are still some of the best ice-fishing in the entire country. We will continue to manage those waters to produce that kind of quality fishing and I believe in the future we will have that and maybe even better!
That is unless we mess it all up. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Whatever,
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes// (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes//)
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Nicely said "again" Daryl!
JScott I'll give you my phone number, and you can call me, and I'll call the authorities when you see that going on out there.
Go back twice a day, and if they're there every time you're there, they're there more than that!
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The thought of C & R or slot limits is putting a smile on my face. :) :) I've been to the refuge lakes 8 times this winter. I go to get away from work, phones and computers. I like to catch big fish. I don't care to bring any home to eat. I prefer the taste of beef. I enjoy supporting our ranchers and farmers. I was there from first ice and there 1 week ago. During 5 of those trips I witnessed the same group of people (5 or 6) catching their limits of bluegill once or twice a day. I think that we are in a sad state of affairs if that is our attitude toward such a precious fishing resource. I really question their respect and integrity towards the sport of fishing. I've fished the refuge lakes for the past 45 years. My fishing has been as good as ever during the past 3 years. It seems to me that the more fish I release the more I catch. A successful fishing trip isn't measured by numbers as much as by the quality of just one good fish. Pictures last a lifetime. Great discussion here. I like what I'm hearing.
jscott
Good fist post. Keep it up! :) :thumbsup:
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Like I mentioned before I really hope to see them switch a couple to trophy fisheries but before that happens I guess I will wish for heavy spring rains.
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This has been one interesting and at the same time pretty sad subject. I can add my list to those who have fished the Refuge lakes for decades. Called Cork Thornton on the phone at his bait shop to get idea of where to go on Pelican to ice fish. Said anywhere but try the east end. Had a riot catching my first master angler bluegill, perch, and pike. And there were hundreds of fisherman on the lake. All were catching fish. I also remember some of the tougher years when the water quality and clarity was poor, which I believe was caused by those carp and some low water years due to drought. I just can't believe so many people feel they have all the answers on what they think needs to be done. We will all fish lakes that are productive. Happened 40 years ago and now. And then to blast our public officials with all the conjecture and innuendo as if what you are saying is based in fact. The refuge lakes have low water levels due to removing boards. Really? Have you been to any of the other lakes like Frye, Smith, etc that also have low water levels. We are in a drought. Duh. While we may not have the fishing the Dakotas and other states offer, it is like comparing apples to grapefruit. We should feel privileged and I do with the type of fishing Nebraska has to offer. Some tough days and some great days. Heck, I even went to Devils Lake in ND last winter in February and did not do well on a guided trip. Had better luck back home in these terribly managed state waters. Daryl, thanks for you passion in reading and responding to these forums. To you common sense experts, put your application in at G&P and bail us out of this mess.
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How many other lakes on the refuge hold fish that we are not allowed to access? There has to be a few. I wonder what it would be like if they would open up some of those other lakes to fishing and shut down other lakes for a couple years to get the pressure off them. Just cycle in and out lakes on a rotation. Shut down Pelican for 3 years, bring a new lake in and go through the list cycling in and out lakes. Just an idea. I still love going up there, it's still great fishing, and you can't beat them time you GET to spend with your family doing things you love together.
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How many other lakes on the refuge hold fish that we are not allowed to access? There has to be a few. I wonder what it would be like if they would open up some of those other lakes to fishing and shut down other lakes for a couple years to get the pressure off them. Just cycle in and out lakes on a rotation. Shut down Pelican for 3 years, bring a new lake in and go through the list cycling in and out lakes. Just an idea. I still love going up there, it's still great fishing, and you can't beat them time you GET to spend with your family doing things you love together.
There are a number of lakes on the Valentine National Wildlife Refuge that are not open to fishing. I would love it if we could fish more waters there, but keep in mind that it is a U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, Federal wildlife refuge and their management goals for the refuge are something different than providing the most fishing opportunity on the most lakes. In our communications with the refuge staff, something we do every year, we often suggest the opening of more waters for fishing, even if it was just ice fishing, but that does not fit with the current management objectives of the refuge.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes// (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes//)
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Thanks for the feedback Daryl and PLEASE KEEP PUSHING FOR THAT!! Even if it was just for ice fishing that would be great.
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Thanks for the feedback Daryl and PLEASE KEEP PUSHING FOR THAT!! Even if it was just for ice fishing that would be great.
x2
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Like I mentioned before I really hope to see them switch a couple to trophy fisheries but before that happens I guess I will wish for heavy spring rains.
Save up and buy your own lake. Or long term lease.
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Save up and buy your own lake. Or long term lease.
Been saving money to buy Mule Lake
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The only people I ever see screwing up the Valentine refuge or any other Nebraska Lake for that matter, are the guys keeping buckets of big panfish every day and any bass even close to 21". Of course they throw the little ones back. I think the Game and Parks/Feds do a great job of renovating lakes. Until you get the trophy MEAT hunters to change there is no hope of ANY lake in this state to preserve a trophy panfish fishery. It's easy to deflect blame onto the State but some of you guys should look in the mirror next time you cast blame. I've seen those lakes punished when the fish are biting and empty when they are not. These forums and fishing reports wouldn't be hurting the lakes would they? Human greed and bragging rights are the real killers here.
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Anyone want to go in on buying Middle Marsh Lake (cherry co) with me? I believe I can take that lake unsuitable for fish and make it the trophy lake we all want. May have to tap into groundwater to make sure it doesn't get too low.
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Here is what ice fishing could be without renovation. Rat/Beaver This year. Not even close to all we landed.
I am sure the refuge lakes would be no better off without the feds and Game and Parks
(http://www.nefga.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=38885&d=1360117988)
(http://www.nefga.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=38886&d=1360117990)
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Personally I have never caught a pike of any size with a carp in its belly, I've caught them with pocket gophers , snapping turtles ,black birds , perch , bluegill,snakes,grasshoppers,but never a carp. So what ever sdsu is using is B.S
Wow. A little over the top here. I have seen large pike eat baby ducks from the surface and have also had 20+ lb gators come up and smash 20" walleye at the boat. They are top notch predators. It is very plausible that they would eat smaller carp. To say that SDSU's research is "B.S" is a little ridiculous. Just because you have never caught one with a digested carp in it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
O wait there are no huge pike there never mind.
No large pike in Merritt? I beg to differ. I bet there are others who would say the same thing.
When we loaded up they the sdsu had transport trucks at the west ramp full of pan fish.so dont give me the B.S.
Is this before or after the spaceship landed and took them to another galaxy to start a new population of panfish there? ;D Ha just kidding. The NGPC have a tough job, give them a break. Guys like Daryl and other biologists work very hard and to say their work is "B.S" is kind of shallow. Lets give 'em a break.
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I've read some of the studies on the valentine refuge and they are very in-depth and informative research papers. Absolutely not BS studies!
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Ferg still own Rat and Beaver?
It has public access. Is it privately owned? I know Blaine owns the ground on the east side. Feds, north side. Lady that lives far away, west side. Cabin? don't know.
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I am pretty sure the State has obtained the lake and a small portion of the land for a boat ramp. Original owners are out of the picture. It is scheduled for chemical renovation Sept 2013 as far as I've heard.
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Next time Daryl I will get name and photos for you.The board were pulled this fall at Dewey all the lakes drain thru there to Ballards marsh. Personally I have never caught a pike of any size with a carp in its belly, I've caught them with pocket gophers , snapping turtles ,black birds , perch , bluegill,snakes,grasshoppers,but never a carp. So what ever sdsu is using is B.S you cannot find any where on any lake that a 28 inch limit has worked. Look at merit O wait there are no huge pike there never mind.We were on pelican fishing and followed the shock boats so we left because the fish dont bite when they are being shocked. When we loaded up they the sdsu had transport trucks at the west ramp full of pan fish.so dont give me the B.S. I thought the G.P were in charge of Big Akili so they should know who is going to run it or when its torn down.
I mentioned before that some of the research and high-tech surveying being done on the Valentine refuge is being done to better understand water movement. When the water is high enough, and I must emphasize that, there are not necessarily all of these connections unless water levels are high, it water flows from Dewey to Clear, and from Clear to Willow. From Willow it flows out eventually towards Big Alkali. I do not believe any of that connects to Ballard's Marsh and if it does it does so only when water levels are very high.
I said before and will say it again here for emphasis, that the research we have, most of it done by SDSU, indicates that most of the YOY carp predation occurs in the fall and winter under the ice. I am betting that was based on a sample of more fish than you caught. Research also indicates that the 28-inch maximum has been successful in helping to manage carp populations on the Valentine refuge. If you want citations on all of that I can give it to you.
We can compare sandhill lakes to Merritt if you want. Just remember in those comparisons that we are talking about comparing relatively shallow natural lakes and a relatively large, relatively deep, fluctuating, man-made, irrigation reservoir. Keeping those fundamental differences in mind to begin with, fire away, make all the comparisons you want.
Electrofishing immobilizes fish for a short period of time. Once they are out of the electrical field they quickly recover and "carry on". I have caught fish on hook & line right after the shocking boat went through and in fact have found it can be an excellent time to fish because the predator fish take advantage of the "stunned" prey fish.
I told you what I know about Big Alkali. I believe the concession is available if anyone wants to take that on. If you do, let me know and I can provide contact information.
As I said before, you can call me a liar, whatever. Maybe it would help if you had names and photos.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes// (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes//)
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Anyone want to go in on buying Middle Marsh Lake (cherry co) with me? I believe I can take that lake unsuitable for fish and make it the trophy lake we all want. May have to tap into groundwater to make sure it doesn't get too low.
I would pitch in with you, but it wouldn't do any good. The Marsh lakes, all of them are on the Valentine National Wildlife Refuge and I am pretty sure they ain't for sale.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes// (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes//)
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I am pretty sure the State has obtained the lake and a small portion of the land for a boat ramp. Original owners are out of the picture. It is scheduled for chemical renovation Sept 2013 as far as I've heard.
What he said!
There is public access to Rat & Beaver provided at the boat ramp and parking lot on the east end of the lake. Other than that the rest of the land between the road and the lake is privately-owned, stay off.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes// (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes//)
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Thanks for all your info Daryl, very interesting how you explain everything. there will probably never come a day that everyone will be satisfied , I ask the questions only out of curiousity. Knowing that the fishing will allways change on every body of water makes it fishing not catching if we went out every day and knew we were going to limit out and fill the freezers why would we think that was fun ? It wouldnt be !!!!! Yes we all need to practice more catch and release at times and the most valuable thing about fishing is learning and being in the outdoors no matter where it may be. I havent personally thought that the refuge has changed as far as fishing goes, we have been catching fair numbers of panfish since thats all we normally target through the ice. yes low water doesnt help matters but we have no controll over that mother nature is the ruller of that along with most everything in our lives , improvements will allways be invisioned by all of us to areas that need it we just cant stand still and let things get run down and if nothing was being done we would think that all you guys were out fishing instead of working LOL !!!!!! . Again thank you and good luck fishing
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Unless you know someone who knows someone then you can come in fromt the west ;D
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Ok Daryl most of the lakes on the refuge are fin lakes supplied from under ground or seepage.Gordon creek feeds partly to watts and hackberry that in turn feeds to dewey,whitewater feeds into dewey from the souththen dewey goes into clear to willow then north to schlagel creek past trout and red deer lake splits to ballards to the east and north to Big Alkali mule then east to bens lake and noth to the Niobrara.Plenty of places for carp to infest
I said earlier that when water levels are high, there are a lot of connections and fish are on the move. Obviously groundwater is an important source of water for Nebraska's sandhill lakes, but in most areas there are low-grade drainages that can connect bodies of water under high water conditions. When water levels are high, carp have plenty of places to hide and move to and from plenty of places. That is why we have been using high-tech surveying techniques including aerial surveying on the Valentine refuge in order to better understand water flows. That information will allow better water level management and better carp management in the future.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes// (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes//)
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Ok Daryl when water levels are high the carp move around.But we spend millions in tax payer money to remove these carp for how many years? How many lakes and how many times have they have been renovated. And they are never removed might as well throw the money down a hole . But when they the feds pull the boards out at Dewey in the middle of a huge drought in turn drains most of the lakes on the refuge it shows how common sense and the goverment work so well and shows any one can be a fisheries or a bird bioloigist for the state of Nebraska or the federal goverment.
You might want to sit down for this. . . . the reality is we will never get rid of all the common carp. Unless you invent a time machine and we go back over a hundred years and prevent the introduction of common carp to North America, we will never get rid of them. Furthermore, we completely expect that when we do some rotenone renovations that the common carp will eventually re-invade. Does that mean those fisheries management activities are a waste of time and money? Does that mean we are throwing money down a hole? NO, NOT AT ALL. We are managing carp populations, and when we do a rotenone renovation, even if the common carp eventually re-invade, we will produce several years of improved water quality, improved habitat conditions, improved fish populations and improved fishing. That ain't throwing money down a hole.
I have told you that water levels on the Valentine Refuge lakes were manipulated this summer in order to do boat ramp work on several of the lakes. The ramps on those lakes are now better than ever. But the biggest reason water levels are low right now is that 2012 was one of the driest single years we have ever had. We have not control over the weather.
What do you do for a living? How often are you told that you should be fired or that you are worthless in your job? It happens to me several times a week. Thank you.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes// (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes//)
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You might want to sit down for this. . . . the reality is we will never get rid of all the common carp. Unless you invent a time machine and we go back over a hundred years and prevent the introduction of common carp to North America, we will never get rid of them. Furthermore, we completely expect that when we do some rotenone renovations that the common carp will eventually re-invade. Does that mean those fisheries management activities are a waste of time and money? Does that mean we are throwing money down a hole? NO, NOT AT ALL. We are managing carp populations, and when we do a rotenone renovation, even if the common carp eventually re-invade, we will produce several years of improved water quality, improved habitat conditions, improved fish populations and improved fishing. That ain't throwing money down a hole.
I have told you that water levels on the Valentine Refuge lakes were manipulated this summer in order to do boat ramp work on several of the lakes. The ramps on those lakes are now better than ever. But the biggest reason water levels are low right now is that 2012 was one of the driest single years we have ever had. We have not control over the weather.
What do you do for a living? How often are you told that you should be fired or that you are worthless in your job? It happens to me several times a week. Thank you.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes// (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes//)
I hope you're aware that there are (and I'm guessing probably 100 or more to 1) a lot of people in this state and in the fishing community in particular that appreciate your work (and that of other NGPC fisheries staff). You have a gift for clear communication and teaching that is uncommon, you have a contagious enthusiasm for all things outdoors, and your writing (to say nothing of other things you do, which I'm sure are also very valuable) certainly has helped many an angler, both in and out of Nebraska. I for one have gotten my kids out fishing a lot more often in a lot more seasons (and had more success too), encouraged by some of the pieces you've written.
OK - back to the Refuge Lakes...
Nate
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I hope you're aware that there are (and I'm guessing probably 100 or more to 1) a lot of people in this state and in the fishing community in particular that appreciate your work (and that of other NGPC fisheries staff). You have a gift for clear communication and teaching that is uncommon, you have a contagious enthusiasm for all things outdoors, and your writing (to say nothing of other things you do, which I'm sure are also very valuable) certainly has helped many an angler, both in and out of Nebraska. I for one have gotten my kids out fishing a lot more often in a lot more seasons (and had more success too), encouraged by some of the pieces you've written.
OK - back to the Refuge Lakes...
Nate
Nate,
Thank you.
I didn't say what I did to fish for sympathy, but some of it does get old at times.
Again, I hope everyone understands that they do not have to agree with me or the Nebraska Game & Parks Commission all the time. If you have complaints, I want to hear about it. But I also hope that folks understand that this internet thingy is free speech at its finest, and I am going to exercise my right to speak freely here too.
And what makes it all worthwhile is folks like yourself!
GO FISH!
Daryl B.
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Jeesh Daryl a little thin skinned.Did you read my post I know that we cant get rid of the carp.I never said anyone should be fired.When I was in my teens in the late 70's early 80's I worked at the game and parks in North platte banding ducks and helping at the spawning ponds so I do know a little about what B.S goes on.I t gets old watching what is done to the lakes and fisheries in this state and being fed a line of B.S about what the agenda is.What boat ramps did they have do drain the lakes down Pelican at the east end,Dewey dosent control Pelican.The east end of Hackberry Iwas there the days they were working on it and all the boards were in Dewey then.BLAH BLAH BLAH Go fish I'll see you out there remember catch and release.
Now wait a minute. You have been telling me that water levels on all the refuge lakes are connected/related, but now you say that dropping levels on one lake would not necessarily reduce levels on the other. I keep telling you what I know, you either ain't listening or don't want to hear. Water levels were low last summer on the Valentine Refuge lakes because of the drought. Period. Water levels were also manipulated for boat ramp work on Pelican, Dewey, Hackberry and Clear.
Thin skinned? Believe me, if I were thin-skinned I would have given up on discussions like this a long, long time ago. You have intimated again and again that I do not have a clue what I am doing, that myself and other fisheries biologists are not doing our jobs. I know that I will never convince someone like yourself that has all the answers, but you keep pitching 'em, I will keep hitting 'em. There are lots of other folks out there reading, and learning. ;)
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
[email protected]
http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/ (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/category/barbs-and-backlashes/)
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Those ear mosquitoes are annoying. Keep up the good work Daryl.
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I think we can write a book on this thread already fish98!!!! Nice job Daryl I want a copy when this is all through with, LOL :clap: Only bad part is the broken record sound coming from it !!!! :cookoo:
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Keep swingin' Daryl, most of the people pitchin' are off base, but we appreciate what YOU do for our sport. Happy trails. D Hutt
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http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/2013/02/blinded-science-february-25-2013/ (http://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/blogs/2013/02/blinded-science-february-25-2013/)
Daryl B.
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That pic at the end of the blog post is off the charts!