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Author Topic: Beating a dead horse perhaps...but why are FW&P managing Canyon Ferry  (Read 12173 times)

Offline Wenger

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That would great. I have discussed this with them in the past but always the stone wall goes up, ie current policy which is not to introduce any forage. Nothing they try has worked, we all know they have considered walleye as invasive and a threat to the stocked trout to which they reacted to by increasing the size of the stockers. They also have prioritized trying to keep Browns in the river between Toston and the lake. They have stated repeatedly that perch are the only prey species they will consider. None of this is practable biologically or from a sportsman’s point of view. The bottom line is that there is a huge problem that they refuse to address. As a result we are wasting a great resource that is simply turning into a green cesspool each summer due to excess nutrients that could be turned into fish rather algae. I know what they will tell you, Cisco’s MIGHT become a problem below Holter. This is nonsense given we know how peck and Tiber responded. They are indeed stuck in the current thinking rather learning from or considering what we have learned from every reservoir downstream.

Please don’t take any of my comments the wrong way. I am not being contentious just trying to convince! ;D

Offline missoulafish

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Great conversation 👍

Offline Quantoson

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I am certainly willing to bring a solution to the table.  I just do not want it to be a power struggle of people vs FWP.  That will get us or them no where.  We need to evaluate the FWP' bio-ecosystem reasoning and indeed attempt to understand not only our issues but understand the problems or bio science they have to offer.

To make it very transparent, I have no education in any bio sciences.  I would be no more than a moderator or the bullet shield.  We need to have solid reasoning, some actual science of this particular reservoir, not examples of other ecosystems that worked, but why the proposed ecosystem brought forth would work, time frame, and total forecast expenditures.  I deal with kind of stuff in real life, although on a different compass of an industry.

The idea is to not suggest any experiments, but only the solution that works for the group and all other powers that be.  Also, considerations need to be made to the actual budgets allowed for this fishery.  The solution cannot be absorbent or over burden of the fisheries total budget.  This existing budget needs to be defined and see if it fits the estimated expenditures.  If it exceeds the expenditures, then, the obligation of budget shortfall lands on our lap.  Need to be prepared to accommodate the shortfalls and explain sources of additional funds or suggested trade of other services in the current budget to be transferred to this issue if there are no conflicts with other groups and interests.   

When a group attempts to address issues like this one, that group needs to have all the answers for questions that may never even be asked.  Need to assure no other groups or interests will have to make concessions.  That is how you win.
wish you many hook-ups

Offline gramps2321

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For more than 10 years that I know of and probably more there has been a concerted effort by multiple Sportsman groups that have tried to work with the FWP to help improve spawning habitat for the forage fish in CF.  It has been in the FWP UMRMP Management plans as an action item but in reality I haven't seen anything but the Christmas tree project happen.  It has been mentioned to use the Duck Ponds for rearing forage but that also has been met with Zero support from the FWP.  When it was mentioned at one of the meetings recently to add Cisco's it was an immediate NO.  Yes the reservoirs are at the mercy of the Power and Irrigation managers.  Creating a sustainable habitat for forage spawning is quite challenging.  I believe the Christmas trees do help but it's labor intensive and the trees seem to only last a year or two.  It's the best thing we have got going right now.  Introducing Cisco's or any other fish could fill the void but I'll bet the FWP response will be "When Hell Freezes Over"! 

The seems the untold truth of this whole story is that the FWP is trying to Protect the Holy Grail of River Fishing below Holter Dam.  They are worried that the Cisco's and or Walleyes will flush through the system and ruin the Blue Ribbon River fishing.  Why else do they have a No Limit on Walleyes below Holter and the section of river isn't included in the UMRMP?  When the Commissioners voted on changing the regulation to No Limit it was stated that there was No Scientific Reason but they chose to approve anyhow.  Social pressure from a peer group I suspect? 

I am willing to bet a dollar to a doughnut that if the FWP asked for help in funding projects to improve forage habitat there would be groups that would.  Hell I remember a few years ago paying an extra 5 bucks (willingly) on my License to buy a Warm Water Stamp to help pay for a new Hatchery.  I don't remember the Cold Water folks having to do such a thing?  Luckily we worked together and got that fixed.  I do not want this to be a us vs them thing!  We need to work together but it seems that some folks don't want to play.............

Offline Quantoson

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gramps2321,

I will not pretend that there are no other groups that are more powerful funding wise which would translate as political donations to the right committees in Helena.  Not suggesting any wrong doing, just stating facts of political $cience.   There is no way to over come that other than have more political $cience available to distribute which I choose not to be part of.

As I stated, no concessions by other groups should be suggested, so this is one of the issues, " Cisco's and or Walleyes will flush through the system" needs to be address by our group, with solutions or it may never be considered.  This won't turn into a conflict or argument with FWP or other groups if we address every type of question first before attempting to have a forum with FWP.

Another groups "wants" have been paid for and processed.
wish you many hook-ups

Offline gramps2321

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I agree that the issue of flushing should be addressed whole heartedly.  But on the other hand the decisions need to be made on Scientific evidence and not peer pressure from either side.  Like I said before, may of us have been working years on multiple issues and somehow we need to find a way to stick our hands across the fence and shake hands.  I welcome your input and can appreciate that everyone has their own point of view.

Offline Wenger

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As I pointed out before the dirty little secret of the blue ribbon water below holter is that a larger % rainbows in that stretch than anyone is willing to admit are stocked rather wild fish which we always called slipway stockers. It is also how rainbows and walleyes are stocked into the blue ribbon Bighorn. As guides we all knew this to be true. Let’s not overlook the influence of TU, Perkins lives on the Mo now. I guided the national board on super private waters and had to endure a few days of them spouting off about bait chunkers and spin monkeys to the point I refused to take them ever again. The contrails from their private jets heading east was the last I saw of them and the last penny I ever gave. So yes, THE biggest issue is indeed Cisco’s invading that water. The worst case scenario is that the fish right below the dam will get huge just as those below Garrison dam in nd do and also below the afterbay on the horn. It should be noted that these conditions only occur during heavy runoff and as soon as the bait quits coming over the trout revert to the next major food source being the big of the month.

I agree we don’t need a pi**** match but that assumes we get actual consideration rather than the same old out of hand rejection. There are legislative and electoral means to ends as well. Warm water and multi species fishermen I suspect are tired of 6 hour drives each way and are as such a sleeping giant politically if we care to be.

I have been a some big fights with the likes of NRDC as a farmer and against farmers concerning watershed non point source pollution issues and have won so far both as a consultant and lobbyist.  There are ways beyond asking please.

Offline Born Late

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A few thoughts...

I think it’s worth elaborating on your references to success in downstream reservoirs, presumably meaning Sakakawea and Oahe in addition to Peck. Granted, the introduced forage species in the former two is rainbow smelt rather than cisco but both reservoirs have endured roller-coaster forage and walleye populations for years requiring large volume supplemental stocking. While we may think of Oahe as a top notch self-sustaining walleye destination, SDF&G stocked 4.3 million walleye there as recently as 2017 to revive a slumping fishery. Sakakawea, also a recipient of annual stocking, has recently rebounded after a stretch of down years but is nowhere near the quality fishing experienced in the 80s. Over 825,000 walleyes were stocked in Fort Peck in 2018. My point is there is no guarantee that CF wouldn’t also require a substantial investment well beyondt an initial forage fish introduction at a time when hatchery budgets are being slashed. I would caution against believing forage introduction would necessarily result in a stable self-sustaining perch and walleye fishery in CF.

It is incorrect to suggest there are no native fish in CF. Ling/burbot are native and their numbers have steadily declined since the CF walleye explosion years of 1996 and 1997.  That concerns some of us more than any trout vs. walleye debate.

The finned elephant in the room is the existing carp issue. A potentially very expensive and much more aggressive removal process would need to be undertaken if improving preferred species spawning habitat is a goal.

YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline Wenger

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Right on about the carp.

Ling are indeed down in my experience too, though I have not seen any data on that. But the point of increasing the forage base is to take pressure off the perch, ling and other bait. I doubt any walleye stocking would even have to be considered given they spawn very well in CF. I would be thrilled with 50% fewer walleye as long as they were averaging 18 inches again.

The other issue that we have is that most of the walleye move to the south end enmass each spring post spawn to warmer water, but also because as FWP and MSU studies show that were the perch are spawning thus the only food source of note is concentrated. Does not take a genius to understand that an absolute slaughter is taking place. None of this is publicly discussed.


The logistics of planting Cisco would involve capturing a couple hundred thousand in peck, doing some quick disease testing, transport and dump in by the dam.  FWP would have to provide a budget. No doubt there would be some impact study involved and a TU lawsuit filed in Federal court in Missoula with out favorite grizz judge... :-\

Perhaps a legislative directive to require and fund FWP to do such a study and budget would at least be a first step. I will contact my reps to get a reading about supporting this approach. If others do the same "cloakroom" momentum might get it rolling.

Native fish in CF I know of are ling, suckers, white fish and various minnows. That’s about it now. Might have missed one?

Offline lspower

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Whitefish in CF?
Catch and release into bacon grease

Offline Wenger

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Yup. Not many any more.

Offline Born Late

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Does not take a genius to understand that an absolute slaughter is taking place. None of this is publicly discussed.

“A small spawning population in 1996 and 1997 produced very strong year classes that resulted in a well-established Walleye fishery at Canyon Ferry Reservoir. Yellow Perch abundance and angler catch rates have plummeted to historically low levels.”

“The abundance of forage fish, such as White Suckers, has also declined to historically low levels.”

Page 80, https://myfwp.mt.gov/getRepositoryFile?objectID=84931

YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline Wenger

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That paper makes some great points, and I have used it and other studies on CF to formulate my opinions. If we take a look at page 16-17 it states that pelagic forage increases both size/weight and growth rate of walleye. They falsely claim that walleye will not utilize open water habitat. Peck regulars have long known that they do infact feed on Cisco bait balls in open water just as pike, Lakers and salmon do. A great summer tactic when they seem to disappear in such waters as peck is to find bait balls of ciscos in open water on your electronics and deep jig below the bait or as we did last summer troll Alabama rigs around the bait balls. Top predators will develop the most efficient feeding strategy available, walleye included.

I am glad they have documented the ling decline as well. The statement made that trout stocking costs have risen 7 fold could be mitigated by providing alternate forage options that could divert pressure away from trout, ling and perch. Not a certainty but a strong possibility. The other issue not addressed is how much predation pressure on young of the year carp there is or is not.

They admit that 50% of CF anglers five years ago targeted walleye, up from 10%. My guess is that number is much higher now in summer from my observations on the water. One does  not buy a 50k boat for perch or trout fishing, or am I wrong on that?

Then they scold about not respecting the public opinion that is obviously now redundant given the shift in target species. There are old records of walleye stocking above Toston as were posted in this thread, so it is very possible that it was not bucket biology that stocked CF. not that there can be any excuse for anyone to take such actions.

Over all this paper supports my hypothisis that introducing a forage fish such as ciscos would benefit all game fish in CF and greatly benefit the angling public. Thier stated guidelines on decisions to introduce new species would positively support adding ciscos but....We all understand that the concern is the twenty miles of river below Holter.

Given they have stated unequivocally they are only considering perch as the primary feed for walleye the question they must answer is what do they plan to do differently going forward? Same input always results in the same output. This is what it all boils down to for me. They need to make their case to the public rather than simply saying no without even considering the shift in sporting priorities. FWP is responsible to the public after all, if they have valid concerns lets do the studies and make the case one way or another.




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Whats the chances they introduce  ciscos ?

Offline Wenger

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Whats the chances they introduce  ciscos ?

Under current policy, nil. If they consider the pros and cons without bias it should happen given what they are and have done is not working. At least that is my view. :tipup:

Offline Quantoson

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“A small spawning population in 1996 and 1997 produced very strong year classes that resulted in a well-established Walleye fishery at Canyon Ferry Reservoir. Yellow Perch abundance and angler catch rates have plummeted to historically low levels.”

“The abundance of forage fish, such as White Suckers, has also declined to historically low levels.”

Page 80, https://myfwp.mt.gov/getRepositoryFile?objectID=84931

This paper is the works of perch, walleye and pike haters.  Chapter 1 authored by Robert Bramblett and Alexander Zale.  Both do studies only to support native fish.

Invasive Northern Pike are Associated with Range Contractions of Three
Native Cyprinids
Allison Stringer
Montana Cooperative Fishery Research Unit, Montana State University
Robert Bramblett, Alexander Zale 
Pearl Dace Margariscus margarita, Northern Redbelly Dace Chrosomus eos, and Northern Redbelly
Dace C. eos X Finescale Dace C. neogaeus have undergone range contractions in Montana. Nonnative
Northern Pike Esox lucius have expanded from stocked reservoirs to prairie streams that are inhabited by
native cyprinids. Our objectives were to: (1) establish the current distributions of Pearl Dace and
Chrosomus spp., and (2) evaluate the extent to which their current distributions may have been
influenced by the expansion of Northern Pike. We captured Pearl Dace at only 8 of 85 sites in their
historic range and found that they may have been extirpated from 11 of 13 streams. Northern Pike were
captured in 9 of the 11 streams where Pearl Dace were not captured. Of 141 sites in the historic range of
Chrosomus spp., we captured Chrosomus spp. at 43 sites, and Northern Pike at 20 sites. Chrosomus
spp. and Northern Pike co-occurred at only one site. Expansion of Northern Pike may lead to the
extirpation of Pearl Dace from Montana and substantial declines in Chrosomus spp.

Evaluation of Suppression Methods Targeting Non-native Lake Trout
Embryos in Yellowstone Lake
Nathan Thomas 
Montana State University
Christopher Guy, Todd Koel, Alexander Zale 
Non-native Lake Trout Salvelinus namaycush threaten to extirpate native Yellowstone Cutthroat Trout
Oncorhynchus clarkii bouvieri in Yellowstone Lake, Yellowstone National Park. Suppression of Lake Trout
in Yellowstone Lake has been ongoing since 1995, primarily by extensive gillnetting. Bycatch of
Yellowstone Cutthroat Trout is associated with this removal method, which targets adult and subadult
Lake Trout. Alternative methods effective at causing mortality in early Lake Trout life stage(s) could be
used simultaneously with gillnetting to improve suppression effectiveness. Thus, the goal of this study
was to evaluate the efficacy of methods to induce mortality in Lake Trout embryos. In situ experiments
tested the effect of electroshocking, dredging, tarping, and covering spawning substrate with Lake Trout
carcasses on embryo mortality. Tarping had no effect, and dredging caused 27 percent (4.0 SE) mortality.
Electroshocking caused 99 percent (0.6 SE) mortality of embryos at the substrate surface but only 51
percent (20.8 SE) at 20 cm depth in the substrate. Lake Trout carcasses placed on the spawning
substrate caused 99 percent (0.01 SE) mortality of embryos both at the surface and at 20 cm in the
substrate. Lake Trout carcasses placed on Lake Trout spawning substrate may therefore be an effective
alternative suppression method if implemented on a large scale.

Then this class act US Fish and Wildlife Service Wade Fredenberg


Western Lake Trout Woes - Revisited
Wade Fredenberg   
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
In Montana, Lake Trout Salvelinus namaycush are a self-sustaining introduced species established in
over 20 lakes, mostly west of the Continental Divide. Only a few lakes were intentionally stocked and
most of the rest were either illegally stocked or naturally invaded through interconnected waterways. Lake
Trout populations are a detriment to native fish in the majority of Montana waters where they occur,
including large lakes in Glacier National Park as well as Flathead, Swan, Whitefish, Lindbergh and
Yellowstone (Wyoming). In lakes with threatened native Bull Trout S. confluentus, Lake Trout
management runs headlong into the Endangered Species Act. In addition, ongoing Lake Trout expansion
ranks high amongst future threats to Bull Trout in the Clearwater lakes (Salmon, Seeley, Alva, Inez, etc.),
Lake Koocanusa, and others. Lake Trout are long-lived, hardy, resistant to starvation, reproduce liberally,
and prey upon and compete with other native and sport fishes. In systems where abundant invertebrate
food sources are added to the mix, a tipping point has often been exceeded for maintaining a diverse
native ecosystem. A 2009 review of seven western states revealed that agencies were increasingly
implementing strategies aimed toward reducing Lake Trout populations in an attempt to minimize their
growing impact. This presentation is a Montana update, but has broader ramifications, documenting
millions of dollars spent and mixed results in stemming the Lake Trout tide.

Transport-to-Adult Return Rates among Adfluvial Bull Trout Transported as
Juveniles Downstream of Hydroelectric Dams in the Lower Clark Fork River
Eric Oldenburg   
Avista

Paul Kusnierz, Ernest Keeley, Wade Fredenberg 
Avista owns and operates two dams on the Clark Fork River immediately upstream of Lake Pend Oreille:
Noxon Rapids and Cabinet Gorge. Historically, adfluvial Bull Trout Salvelinus confluentus in the lower
Clark Fork River system utilized Montana tributaries for spawning and early rearing before returning to
Lake Pend Oreille. In 2000, Avista initiated a two-way transport program to reestablish connectivity for
adfluvial Bull Trout between Lake Pend Oreille and tributaries. Since this time, juvenile Bull Trout have
been trapped while outmigrating from Montana streams and transported around the dams to Lake Pend
Oreille. Night electrofishing downstream of Cabinet Gorge Dam has been used to capture returning adults
to transport to their natal streams. One goal of this research was to develop an understanding of variables
associated with the likelihood that juvenile transports would subsequently be recaptured as adults.
Multiple logistic regression was used to evaluate the relationships among numerous independent
variables and the binary response variable (i.e., recaptured as an adult or not). The overall transport-to-adult
return rate was 0.055 (i.e., 5.5%). The best-fit reduced model included fish length, month of
transport, and year of transport. Results from this study were used to modify length criteria for juvenile
transports and to eliminate trapping and transport during July and August when the likelihood of transport-to-adult
return approached zero.

Conservation of Bull Trout in the Lower Clark Fork River: Evaluating the
Effects of Passage, Nonnative Trout Suppression, and Habitat Restoration
Douglas Peterson   
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Shana Bernall, Wade Fredenberg, Sean Moran, David Schmetterling 
Populations of Bull Trout Salvelinus confluentus in the lower Clark Fork River, MT, are impaired from a
variety of reasons. Hydroelectric dam mitigation funds have been spent on projects to improve their
survival, but until now there has been no means to rank the relative efficacy of management alternatives.
Using a decade of data, we developed a probabilistic model to evaluate management alternatives for ten
local populations (i.e., patches) of Bull Trout. Under current environmental conditions and management,
the model predicted there were: three patches with a high likelihood (>85%) of a stable or increasing Bull
Trout population (λ of 0.9-1.1 or greater); four with moderate likelihood (>59 to 76%); and three where the
likelihood (48-54%) did not strongly indicate stability. An aggregate model for the eight Bull Trout patches
upstream of Cabinet Gorge Dam predicted only a moderate (59%) likelihood that the metapopulation was
stable or increasing. Management actions that reduced abundance of nonnative trout had the largest
effect on population growth in individual patches and the metapopulation, and upstream transport of
adults captured downstream of Cabinet Gorge Dam was also important. Habitat restoration had little
effect unless coupled with other interventions. The model and its outputs are best described as testable
hypotheses, but results suggest a greater intensity and more targeted interventions may be needed to
achieve management objectives.   

Then backed by the money player  Avista Corporation Paul Kusinerz, Eric Oldenburg as in the studies above.

They are all members of certain societies that are advocates for Bull and Cutthroat.  Just how they play with the funding behind them, with a lot of bull and cutthroat practices.

I have not finished the paper but pretty bogus leaning so far with the players involved who are said to be "experts"

What is confusing is that Walleye Unlimited gives donations to these people and to their organizations, Walleye Unlimited sponsored the Westernslope Cutthroat Trout seminar for American Fisheries Society Western Division among other sponsorships they provide to deplete pike, perch, and walleye.

When the wolf in sheep's clothing is in your flock, how will you actually succeed?
wish you many hook-ups

Offline Quantoson

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It should also be of concern that the only type of tournaments and derbies are mainly to deplete a species. Lake Trout, Pike, Perch, Walleye, Bass, Rainbow.  One allows Cutthroat in the tournament.

These tournaments please the powers that be.  We assist in their management plan without even knowing, while they giggle.
wish you many hook-ups

Offline Born Late

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You left out contrails and Bigfoot.
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline Quantoson

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You left out contrails and Bigfoot.

I hit your sore spot there. 
wish you many hook-ups

Offline Born Late

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con·jec·ture
/kənˈjekCHər/
noun
1. an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline Quantoson

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con·jec·ture
/kənˈjekCHər/
noun
1. an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

You forgot this also

con·jec·ture
/kənˈjekCHər/
noun
c : a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved
wish you many hook-ups

Offline PerchPounderMT

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Out of staters come here to fly fish = BIG$ for the F&G.(and their outfitter buddies)
+ Nobody comes here to fish for walleye = 0$ for the F&G (and nothing for their outfitter buddies)
______________________ ______________________ ______________________ _________
= the only science being used to manage our fisheries is MATH
Dont ask

Offline Wenger

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As an ex outfitter I have to take issue with your claim, at least about FWP being "buddies" with outfitters.  Please do not confuse or conflate the Board of Outfitters with FWP. And please understand how the system works before posting. Also "out of staters" are our fellow Americans, and you and I both have the right to fish in any other state we choose also.

Firstly guides and outfitters pay out of pocket (to the Labor Board not FWP) for licensing just as any barber or plumber does.

Then they each pay 100 bucks to use fishing access sites or boat ramps.  They pay for the upkeep and their use, and that of the angling public.

Then we have the issue of restrictions on river use days, which is really about restricting the opportunities of fellow anglers be they from MT (which is a far bigger demographic than you know) or simply fellow Americans and fellow sportsmen who can't or do not care to row themselves down a river...or troll for a walleye in any of our lakes, and yes they do come from a long way to fish Peck and use to to fish CF. Just ask the several outfitters on Peck how good their business is and just how welcome that income is up in that part of the state.

You also do not seem to get that guides and outfitters are monitored on the waters, get checked far more often than the general public. On the Bighorn one FWP warden harassed us and our clients to the point that he was fired.  This resulted in all sorts of bogus fines and lawyer fees for many outfitters. Any little ding like not having enough bandaids left in a first aid kit was referred to the Board of Outfitters for action.

As for the $$ fishing and hunting brings into our economy, why anyone would resent that is beyond me.  Those dollars are multiplied many many times over and benefit the economy as a whole. This is Econ 101.

Outfitters and their clients care greatly about our resources just as any rancher does about the land. I can recount at least six years that my clients and I took about two hours out of our day picking up and netting beer cans and bottles out of the Yellowstone River off of gravel bars that had been used for camping following the annual "boat float". Not mention that guides and outfitters dedicate days on many a river each spring picking up literally tons of trash and junk from old car frames and tires to empty oil jugs.

Let's not split sportsmen apart over simple jealousy, misconstruing, conflating or not understanding the issue. Lets all work together the get CF working as a fishery together.  I can assure you outfitters have the same sentiments as we do on that issue....besides, they love going below Holter or the Afterbay after work to pound on a few walleyes! :tipup:

Offline PerchPounderMT

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My Uncle sat on the commission for years and still advises,I can tell you exactly how many of them have friends/relatives that make a living outfitting in MT.For years the president of the MT outfitters accoc. was a legislator that introduced and voted on bills having a direct effect on outfitting in MT.Get your head out of the sand,this is a financially run Fish and Game Dept,nothing more.
https://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/outfitters-on-opposite-side-of-assistants-bill/article_bc09ff96-0946-5fb2-9cc8-8430b8d9ae56.htmlhttp:/billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/recreation/outfitters-on-opposite-side-of-assistants-bill/article_bc09ff96-0946-5fb2-9cc8-8430b8d9ae56.html
https://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/outfitter-legislator-pulls-bill-that-challenged-initiative/article_1b4c1beb-32d2-581e-80fc-b41add9e7441.html
https://helenair.com/news/state-and-regional/amendments-to-free-elk-license-bill-kill-measure/article_085c12e0-8776-5b91-aeae-e72711150d0f.html
http://www.montanaotg.com/blog-native/2017/1/12/bill-mash-up-could-increase-pay-for-block-management-landowners
If you dont think outfitters are shaping the hunting/fishing landscape in MT you are out of the loop.
Dont ask

Offline Wenger

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It seems you have an issue with Flynn and elk hunting. leasing and for some reason the apprentice guide program...same as FOAM and most fishing outfitters do. Like many most all of the ranches I used to hunt are leased up now, it sucks but that's life in MT where property rights are sacred. If were lucky enough to own 20,000 acres of elk habitat I would also want the right to do as please with it.  What Flyn has been said to be up to though with hazing elk etc is certainly wrong and illegal. If you read the articles you posted which I am aware of, they mostly support my position given FOAM and other sportsmen's groups  opposed him on. Flynn is not on any Board, he is on a committee, we must not conflate the entities being the legislature, FWP, Labor Board and Board of Outfitters.  Flynn IMO has done nothing for outfitters other than himself and perhaps a more reasonable candidate should run against him?

 Why not address the points I made if you contest them? I hardly have my head in the sand having dealt with the Board Of Outfitters for twenty plus years as well as FWP and the Legislature. I also know a past member of the Commision and there was never any pro quid pro on any issue that I was aware of. If you could tell us which issues your uncle or whomever who was on the Commision did private or public favors for outfitters either as a group or as individuals, especially any that have impacted you personally or the public at large please be specific. I pointed out several actions which have been a detriment to outfitting such as the Bighole and Beaverhead and now the Madison regs that are about to greatly impact the town of Ennis if passed. Lets keep it factual rather than emotional please. :)

But all this has nothing to do with getting CF back to where it should and could be. Let's keep it focused please, I assume you are from around Townsend so your input on CF management would be appreciated.  As I said, work together not divide.

Offline Jpaull4

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New guy

Offline gramps2321

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I am having hard time trying to understand part of the newspaper article that appeared in the GF and other papers after the Public Comment meetings. Ms. Ryce was"Directed to make cuts to cause pain" so anglers would speak up and comment.  Granted we need more public comments but is this the way to go about it? Am I missing something here?  I'd like to know what the 1000+ survey results stated?  Hopefully the crew will share that data! 

I know that Eric, Adam and Ms. Ryce do an outstanding job gathering all the netting info and compiling the numbers and they DO Deserve a pat on the back for doing so!   I just have a different opinion on the path we need to move forward with here.  Show me some options for improving habitat.  Show me some options for allowing some 10" fish to make it to 15" fish!  Show me some options to reduce the number of juvenile Walleyes!  How do we deal with budget cuts for stocking the Rainbows!  Like I said I am not about taking away someone else opportunity just don't take away mine.  I think its called Working Together!

Offline Wenger

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I am having hard time trying to understand part of the newspaper article that appeared in the GF and other papers after the Public Comment meetings. Ms. Ryce was"Directed to make cuts to cause pain" so anglers would speak up and comment.  Granted we need more public comments but is this the way to go about it? Am I missing something here?  I'd like to know what the 1000+ survey results stated?  Hopefully the crew will share that data! 

I know that Eric, Adam and Ms. Ryce do an outstanding job gathering all the netting info and compiling the numbers and they DO Deserve a pat on the back for doing so!   I just have a different opinion on the path we need to move forward with here.  Show me some options for improving habitat.  Show me some options for allowing some 10" fish to make it to 15" fish!  Show me some options to reduce the number of juvenile Walleyes!  How do we deal with budget cuts for stocking the Rainbows!  Like I said I am not about taking away someone else opportunity just don't take away mine.  I think its called Working Together!

I agree 100 % to an extent, we sure do have to to work together .  Here are the options I have been putting forward with my justification. If you have others please state them, the complete picture and a wide variety of input is far better than the limited amount we have now. What FWP and every CF angler can agree with is that forage is the problem and reducing predator numbers does not work. :)

We have shown over the years that perch have a very hard time reproducing in CF due to the massive water level changes.  They do best in drought cycles because that is when CF is not drawn down as far in anticipation of the need to retain big a snow pack and providing the ability to manage downstream reservoirs. The results of the Christmas tree project are not very encouraging as we know. Here is some data and info out of volumes online and at the MSU library http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=44300 ) Another study conducted by MSU post grad students showed that most all of the perch spawning occurs in the delta mouth and thus they get slaughtered by the spring concentration of walleyes in the south end.  No way that the B of Rec is going to eliminate the fluctuations in water levels for fish or recreation. The habitat is what it is. Sadly the current plan, including Adam has arbitrarily rejected any other proposal to introduce forage. Perch as both forage and sportfish is the only option they say they will consider, yet no new ideas are presented.  This stinks of both internal politics and external pressure.

We also know that CF is perfect for walleye reproduction and never will require stocking, and certainly reduction in numbers which has been unsuccessfully tried by netting spawning females and of course the high limits which are rarely achieved according to creel checks. Therefore removal of walleyes is undoable just as removal of carp would be as a solution. The wallyes need to be fed, period.

The basic problem is lack of feed for walleyes which force them to feed on trout and perch. This why FWP has spent 7 times more per trout to stock 8 inchers that will be able to evade smaller walleyes.  Suckers are nearly gone, as are burbot and walleye do not it seems feed on young carp for some reason. Thus the solution is to utilize the deeper water habitat by introducing plankton feeders such as ciscos which are proven to be preferred walleye forage, taking away pressure on both perch and trout as prey, while also providing food for those desirable sport fish at the same time allowing walleye to grow past 12 inches. 

There is a massive issue with ag nutrients coming into the river from potato and other intensive non point source pollution sources all the way up to Belgrade. These nutrients are not being utilized by plankton feeders in CF to a great extent, so they simply feed the algae which now plagues the lake each summer. This issue could be mitigated to at least some extent by utilizing plankton feeders such as ciscos to convert them into fish rather than slime.

My problem with FWP is their intransigence in even considering ciscos as a possible solution to all these problems. Instead the keep banging our heads against the wall, mostly because the powers that be are worried about the effect of ciscos going over Holter and presumably feeding the trout below which also are stocked over the dam, and perhaps being scared that walleye and perhaps pike populations below Holter might be bolstered by flushed out ciscos...but evidence in places such as below Garrison Dam in ND show that smelt that come over and  through the dam creates an unbelievable fishery for huge trout, big walleye, salmon and even ten pound plus ling.

Some other path needs to be followed. FWP needs to listen to the public as a whole, not just the interests below Holter Dam including TU by adhuring like super glue to current trends in fishery management which is vehemently anti introduction of any species not native to the system.  The hearings are a joke sadly as one side is presented, the FWP side and any challenge by the public is fought  against. As such no real consideration of alternatives are presented fairly.

We have a potentially great  resource in crisis, with a massive ecological void that if filled would help fix the problem and beyond IMO , and the obvious solutions are being not just ignored but rejected out of hand.  GF needs to be managed in the same proven manner that reservoirs from Peck on down have been for decades with great success.

Offline bigsky

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Wenger, I appreciate your thoughtful non-biased posts.

Offline mtoutdoorsman

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This is a total wild question and a bit off topic but is about CF and Missouri
Are paddlefish in upper part of the missouri river possible or maybe was before dams and such
Like if they were to plant Paddlefish in CF would survive and maybe run up stream like they do from Peck?
I was pondering this last year when Paddlefishing...
 
 
Formerly youngoutdoorsmans but wouldn't you know, I got older

 



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