VT Deer

[Little Brown Dog]

Explain to me why there are only 3 of these meetings in the whole state, in addition to the fact the locations are HORRIBLE. nothing north of Montpelier... ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.. MOST OF OUR DEER HUNTERS RESIDE IN FRANKLIN COUNTY AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO TRAVEL ALL THE WAY TO MONTPELIER OR CASTLETON. NO EXCUSE AS TO WHY THERE IS NOT A MEETING IN ST.ALBANS OR AT THE VERY LEAST, BURLINGTON. I LIVE IN SWANTON AND WORK IN BURLINGTON, THERE IS NO WAY I COULD MAKE ONE OF THESE MEETINGS. WITH ALL OF THESE DRASTIC CHANGES THE F&W IS PROPOSING, YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD WANT TO DO ANYTHING/EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO DRAW AS MANY HUNTERS AS POSSIBLE. I HAVE LIVED IN THIS STATE MY ENTIRE LIFE AND OTHER THEN THE EARLY 80'S WHEN THE STATE OPENED UP RIFLE SEASON TO SLAUGHTER DOE, THIS IS THE WORSE I HAVE SEEN OUR DEER HERD. I AM ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED WITH OUR F&W DEPT

All of what drastic changes?

This is what the proposal is.

http://www.vtfishandwildlife.com/rules/Background_Information_on_Proposed_Rules/Antlerless_only_deer_muzzleloader_briefing%20memo.pdf

Johnson was north of Montpelier last time I was there.

[wilec]

http://www.vtfishandwildlife.com/library/Reports_and_Documents/Hunting_and_Trapping/Big_game/Historic_Deer_data.pdf
The numbers tell the story really compared to years past with the the exception of that spike in the late 90'sthe last 4 years look pretty good

Deerkill

2003 - 14,528
2004 - 11,889
2005 - 8,546
2006 - 12,682
2007 - 14,516
2008 - 17,046
2009 - 15,237
2010 - 15,675

couldn't find the number on how many hunters killed 3 deer a year the last number i saw from a few years ago was in the low 200's.

What would be the best indicator to compare VT to other states?? how many deer killed per square mile??

[Fish-On-VT]

Proposed changes in a nut-shell:

- Create a 4 day antlerless muzzleloading season the Thursday-Sunday after Columbus day in October
- Increase archery season to the month of October (1st-31st)
- Archery season would be closed during the proposed October muzzleloader season to avoid conflict between the hunting groups
- The December seasons & antlerless-permit allocation system would remain unchanged. If a hunter obtains an antlerless permit for the muzzleloader season, that person would have an additional 4 days in October to fill that permit.

- Create a 7 day special moose archery hunt. (starting the 1st Saturday in October)
- 50 either sex permits would be available via a lottery system

[iceman55]

Theres one more tonite Johnson State College. I talked to one guy he travels to all of them, If they don't listen there go,s the deer heard. I'm not buying any lic. until I here. That land I bought in Maine last year is looking better.

[smartpill]

All of what drastic changes?

This is what the proposal is.

http://www.vtfishandwildlife.com/rules/Background_Information_on_Proposed_Rules/Antlerless_only_deer_muzzleloader_briefing%20memo.pdf

Johnson was north of Montpelier last time I was there.

Yo little brown dog-
I would certainly consider implementing a 4 day Muzzleloader seaon in October a DRASTIC change!!!!!! In addition, I believe the spikehorn's 5 year moratorium is set to expire and be revisited!!! I could me way off track here, but these are certainly issues that seem somewhat significant.. Not sure what u are talking about..

Yes, u are correct Johnson is northeast of Montpelier and it is such an easy place to travel to!!! Again, 3 meetings in the whole state. What are hunters in Brattleboro supposed to do, make the 2 hour dirve to Montpelier. F&W should make every effort to accomodate deer hunters regarding these meetings, IF and that is a big IF, they TRULY have the hunters input at heart, which I really do not think they do.

[DyingBreed]

  Well I was lucky enough to get three deer this year and I am happy with the deer hunting around me, I understand different parts of the state are not as well off as my area,   as for posted land most farmers in VT are in the land trust program and still post there land, now correct me if I am wrong, but I believe is not supposed to happen.  We need someone to start policing this matter, our tax dollars go to these farmers that are "hurting" for money driving around in there new pick ups and 100,000$ tractors posting their land illegally

I'll tell ya right now....People start showing some respect and ethics in the ways they hunt and I'd take them posters down. My grandsons would like to have deer to hunt and any one that shoots a 50 - 80# deer needs a boot in the arse. We have the right to manage the land we own. The state sucks @ it. Haven't shot a deer on the farm in three years. I hunt on public land and score well. You don't breed an animal and then send it to slaughter why do we breed does only to send them to the freezer? THINK PEOPLE.  With out the land trust you wouldn't hunt anyhow......this place would be forever developed and no deer would breed to populate ajoining lands.    Just my oppinion.  High flags to all.

[DyingBreed]

Keep shooting does and button bucks during muzzleloader and it will only get worse.

That's 60# does and button bucks . YOUTH. Learn them what a shootable deer is.

[vermonner]

Good points all but we're missing an important point: HABITAT.  The 150,000 number which John Buck throws out every year is only to keep the out of staters coming in to spend money on ammo/food/camp supplies etc. etc.etc.  Those people are all hunting other states now.  Lot of empty camps up where I hunt, as well as fewer deer.  Kill numbers show a consistent harvest but I don't necessarily believe our herd is as big as is alleged.  I've also wondered if the kill numbers are inflated to paint a rosier picture.  Poaching absolutely carries an impact detrimental to the herd, I wonder if we could see data of reported 'shots at night' or Operation game thief data to see how their data stack up.

On to habitat:  You can't manage what isn't there and I would bet my life that our herd IS dwindling.  I don't believe even one number issued forth by F&W, they're dependent on consumption dollars to exist.  Can't trust them.  The bulk of Vermont forests are mature by forest standards which are proven to be suboptimal habitat for white tailed deer.  We NEED selective cutting initiatives on our state lands to promote seccessional growth for optimal deer habitat.  All the antler restrictions in the world won't protect much if it isn't there.  Build up habitat, build up population.

Doe hunt v. No doe hunt
Ya gotta hunt the does.  I like the plan of doe hunting in October and ALWAYS thought doe hunting in December was STUPID STUPID STUPID.  With Doe to Buck ratios of (some places) 10:1, you gotta hunt the does.  I have also wondered if 15 deer generations of selectively eliminating males has promoted an increased  rate of female births in the deer population <-- no proof, but we can have an impact.

Good luck trying to get a number of everyday joe's to convince F&W to hear these ideas (all of ours) when they're dependent on license sales for their operating revenue.

[DyingBreed]

BINGO.......HABITAT MANAGEMENT......AMEN. This state is TOO far behind on it.WAY too far. Let's all do our part on the parcles we hunt...or HEY...offer that land owner a hand. It would greatly be appreciated. Just maybe you'll get some limited access at the least. Work from there. Enjoy.

[Zorros shack]

I agree with Dave B and Gatornation. A petition would be good idea and I will always hunt VT too, unless I move to far away. (I WONT ever want to) VT deer are elusive and you gotta work to get them, its NOT Iowa with deer with "fake" deer. Because you can have food plots and feed deer there unlike here. We just have to look and scout to find the deer.

[RipSomeLips22]

when did this turn into DeerShanty.com?   hahaahhahahha everyone knows there is a problem with the heard, its not going to change anytime soon, not in my lifetime at least!

[iceman55]

LAZY HUNTERS! I agree. Being a tracker, I can't stand the sight of someone sitting in their truck watching a field WHEN they can get out in the woods...

Or just riding around all day and night

[iceman55]

when did this turn into DeerShanty.com?   hahaahhahahha everyone knows there is a problem with the heard, its not going to change anytime soon, not in my lifetime at least!

My opion the spike law was stating to work until they put the doe permits on line, down hill from there. now back to fishing Tip Up

[mempfree]

I thought if your Land, is under the current use program in Vermont, that it is surpose to be managed by a State Forester?  If that is true, then why isn't there any improvement, in the deer population?  What is it good for?  Just to save the Landowner, from paying higher Property Taxes?  Land here in Vermont, is so expensive now.  Repeal Act 60-68, and you mite see more land open up for hunting.  Also, another problem is, the law enforcement of jacking deer, needs to be a priority, its a joke, in my opinion.  Youth season, should be cut down, to one day.  With less and less land to hunt on, there is now, so much hunting pressure, on a parcel of land.  The nearest Fish and Game, moose and deer mgt meetings, near me, is Johnson State College.  Why there?  Who is making these decisions, of where to have these meetings?  Gee.

[Ronbo]

dont shoot the doe thats all i have to say about that

[iceman55]

HAVE A STORE IN WALLINGFORD VT COREY'S RV SUPPLIES CHECKED IN A TOTAL ALL SEASONS OF 191 DEER UP FROM LAST YEAR. WEIGHT UP AND NICE RACKS.

Was there any particular area that did better than another? I moose hunted in reading and bridgewater saw one deer while scouting started in august didn't see one deer while hunting went every day, my daughter got her moose. I usually get a deer every year not this year I saw a few but couldn't get a shot they were always doing a cool 100 mph lol, but hunted the green mt. and didn't see much sign at all even in the snow no tracks. Went to maine saw a nice one the first day warm no snow. I live in chittenden poaching is really bad up here, they ride around with there crossbows at night I even caught one with a compound try to shoot one after dark he was the passenger the driver keep ed the lights on the deer. I know some people find bolts from crossbows on their lawns, one guy found 6 deer behind his house dead all arrow killed. And we had k2 dirt bags shooting deer in I. If I remember right didn't we have 15000 deer kill back in the day when we only had rifle and bow no mechanical releases? My two cents

[Fish-On-VT]

If I remember right didn't we have 15000 deer kill back in the day when we only had rifle and bow no mechanical releases? My two cents

   

[vermonner]

I would like to see 2 things regarding deer herd management meetings:

1.)  Have 8 of them all over the state, this way we cover all portions of the state, not 3, and they're less jam packed, and people can be heard.

2.) MAKE. THEM. ON. THE. WEEKEND.  After work and family responsibilities, I can't venture off to Johnson from Burlington to sit in on an overcrowded meeting on a weekday.

I swear it's half on purpose.  This type of population sampling is known as 'convenience sampling'.  It IS good that F&W is holding these meetings (and that is proof enough that hunters are dissatisfied with mgmt efforts, which I believe is a direct reflection on the deer herd size), but  they are controlling the volume of input and subsequently, the amount of input they have to respond/react to by being passively less accessible to the public.  This a very defensible position which doesn't require definitive action.  "Well we held meetings and less than 20% of hunters attended them...blah blah blah" as the deer herd continues to dwindle.  The spikehorn measure was knee jerk reaction which can do no harm, so it was safe and produced some minor results and the work burden got shifted to the wardens, who have to now be on the lookout for people shooting spikes.  This is typical bureaucracy. 

I suggest: 1 more round of meetings, develop a plan which includes decreased harvest numbers with Doe hunting BEFORE they're impregnated (read October), Habitat improvement, and adopt a successful (harvest at more than 20% hunter success rate) state's deer herd mgmt plan as a model.  Let's stop the office meetings, emails and phone calls and do some legwork. 

I now step off my soapbox

[whipplebuck]

yea and back in the day we had active timber harvests on just about all of our national forest lands, thus we had a lot more habitat its plane and simple we will NOT see the days that we have that many deer harvested with the current carring capacity of Vermont, and where were all the hunters when the national forest had there 15 year plan meetings 3-4 years ago  NOT AT THE MEETINGS  there were only 3 of us at the meetings in Rutland  SAD......    The Fish and Wildlife ACTIVELY logs and harvests all their WMA and probably 90% of the hunters dont even have a clue..  Paul Hamlin is a full time forester biologist that works for the department and his job is managing these, his salery is even paid by the timber harvests... SO  don't harp on the F&W about lack of Habitat,Coyotes ( season open 24-7 HUNT THEM ),Turkeys( they don't kill Deer yes they eat some nuts )..  get out and work on habitat I know some of you do great, and I had no problem seeing deer this year and my camera's are getting pictures of 8 - 10 doe and fawns at a time...  I know a lot of hunters that are the ones not seeing many deer are hunting the national forest and yes your right there aint crap for deer  we just sold our deer camp that is in chittenden in national forest and we don't hunt there anymore  NO DEER!!!  and until they start logging again its only going to get worser LOL...   But don't hold your breath in this freakin tree huggin state...  But please by all mean feel free to call your local national forest Service and b***h to them  they need it..  ok I am done....    oh one more  if we don't keep the heard down to the level we have with doe harvest we will over browse the lack of deer yards we do have and that results in even a lower carring capacity ...  Brian

[Fish-On-VT]

yea and back in the day we had active timber harvests on just about all of our national forest lands, thus we had a lot more habitat

   

[iceman55]

yea and back in the day we had active timber harvests on just about all of our national forest lands, thus we had a lot more habitat its plane and simple we will NOT see the days that we have that many deer harvested with the current carring capacity of Vermont, and where were all the hunters when the national forest had there 15 year plan meetings 3-4 years ago  NOT AT THE MEETINGS  there were only 3 of us at the meetings in Rutland  SAD......    The Fish and Wildlife ACTIVELY logs and harvests all their WMA and probably 90% of the hunters dont even have a clue..  Paul Hamlin is a full time forester biologist that works for the department and his job is managing these, his salery is even paid by the timber harvests... SO  don't harp on the F&W about lack of Habitat,Coyotes ( season open 24-7 HUNT THEM ),Turkeys( they don't kill Deer yes they eat some nuts )..  get out and work on habitat I know some of you do great, and I had no problem seeing deer this year and my camera's are getting pictures of 8 - 10 doe and fawns at a time...  I know a lot of hunters that are the ones not seeing many deer are hunting the national forest and yes your right there aint crap for deer  we just sold our deer camp that is in chittenden in national forest and we don't hunt there anymore  NO DEER!!!  and until they start logging again its only going to get worser LOL...   But don't hold your breath in this freakin tree huggin state...  But please by all mean feel free to call your local national forest Service and b***h to them  they need it..  ok I am done....    oh one more  if we don't keep the heard down to the level we have with doe harvest we will over browse the lack of deer yards we do have and that results in even a lower carring capacity ...  Brian

There are places in NY that has never been cut and I harvest 1 to 2 bucks a year there. I do believe you have to thin the doe's but not to the point they are now. I try to cut my land for the trees and deer it helps some. but not enough.

[northern nightmare]

My father and i have a large chunk of land in washington county and it is in the current use program. They require a ten year forestry management plan. We do selective cutting to increase browse and bedding areas. In the past 10 years we have been planting food plots and apple trees. This past year we have taken small chunks of timber and cut everything but oak trees to open them up for future growth. We have always tried to to do our own deer management on our property but it is extremely hard when the neighbors kill everything. Now for my opinion. Lots of you have touched on the fact that VT is not what it used to be, less farms, less logging and more posted land. There needs to be doe's harvested but i think it needs to be done differently. I hunt in Addison county during bow season and it is amazing how many does i see and how few bucks are seen. I hunt a farm that up until 3 years ago we could take does, now the farmer doesn't want any does taken ( more does more bucks), sorry doesn't work that way, when you see 20+ doe in one day and no bucks something is wrong. I went to school for wildlife preserve management and worked as a guide in Illinois and ran a 6000acre private club in TN that was under QDMA, now i know that VT and TN are worlds apart in regards to whitetail numbers and habitat but alot of what we did in TN would work here. I think the state is going in the right direction and just needs more input from hunters, having 3 meeting is not enough. They need to have a meeting in the Burlington area. Near my camp in area H1 there are a total of three camps, out of the 3 camps 4 bucks were harvested during rifle, all over 160lbs. 3 other bucks were seen and not taken, during bow season 1 doe was taken. Muzzleloader came around and between the 3 camps there was a total of 10 doe tags, 1 doe was taken.  I think the early 4 day muzzleloader season is a great idea and i have always thought that VT needed an early season and better yet why not do a split season like bow and make your tag either sex, problem is the state will lose $230,000 by not selling doe tags.  Killing does in VT is not the reason our deer hunting is sub-par. They issued 23,000 doe tags last year and only 3000 were filled, by no means is that putting a dent in our herd it's not bringing the doe to buck ratio anywhere close to where it needs to be. Land management,Coyotes, bears and poachers are what is hurting our herd. I am a die hard deer hunter and love this state and will always hunt here, i haven't killed a buck in VT in 7 years and that's ok, i see deer and i could of taken a buck this year but didn't. Everyones input on here is great and maybe somebody from the state will take notice.

[Fish-On-VT]

Wow! What a thread... I am always amazed at how whitetail deer can cause such an uproar 

 Anyways, for those who know me, I am a huge promoter of the F&W and I volunteer with them yearly. However, that does not mean I completely agree with them... As a matter of fact, I write a number of select individuals within the department almost monthly with my thoughts... In any event, I believe we have come to yet another time for change (much like when we pressed for an antler regulation)…
 I agree with alot of the statements on here & with alot of the feedback I heard at Monday nights meeting.  But as much as I don't like comparing VT to other states, because we're not!! These, other states (that will remain nameless) offer public food plots, farm land incentive, unposted property encouragement, and forest management areas. If this is what we as Vermonters are looking for, we need to collectively speak out as a group & inform the State, the F&W, and the Board what our long term expectations are.
The way I see it the state along with the F&W needs to kick it up a notch... the heard population is way off, habitat is declining, farms are closing down, predator populations are rising, more houses are being built, deer yards are depleting, posted property is growing, and a number of other issues all contribute…

My 2 cents

[warwin125]

I'm sorry but I shot everything I see.In MASS as well in VT.

[Augen4Hawgs]

The Doe Killing needs to stop completely for a couple years! Then black powder permits need to be reduced by 50% of what they are now...No October black powder! None !!!thats stupid....and it would be really bad for bow hunters........ I sometimes think that our Vt fish & game thinks the bucks (the male deer) are the ones that have the young...Keep killing off all these does how are We ever going to produce Bucks?...I hunted eight days from the first Sat until the 2nd Sun..I saw five bucks & three does...I hunt hard all day..I shot one of them bucks and two were spikes and the other two I don't want to talk about....the does are not their because we Have killed way to many already...I believe in shooing Does when there are way to many but now is not the time....If anyone thinks VT is good Hunting in the last 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 years their must be another VT or something is wrong. I do belive that alot of it is about $$$$$$$$$$$$$ Find another way .

[Grnmtn]

It really all comes down to how we manage our habitat. I don't think they went far enough with the point restrictions. Really what is the differences between a 1.5 year old spike and a fork horn of the same age. Quality of food they had through out the year. We aren't saving a year class but only letting the less fornate habitat make it so if they make it to 2.5 to then shoot them as a 4 point. The whole deal with the antler restrictions was to make it so older bucks made it closer to maturity to do the breeding, which isn't till they reach 4.5 to 5.5 years old. How many of them do we see in the woods. They are there, but few. I see them on my cameras as well as at some of my clients homes on the edge of towns. Again I say only a few make to that level in this state, becasue of a lot of reasons, like hunting pressure, winter kill issues after the rut, poaching. On the national forest level, these areas need to be managed better to keep the habitat, but these are areas for everyone so a lot of fingers are in the pie.

[DyingBreed]

@ fish-on ....AMEN.      ie: Dyingbreed.

[woodab17]

Couldn't agree with Vermonnner more!

The doe hunts are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.  The real issue is the habitat.  The lack of logging is killing the herd, mature forests offer little to no forage.  There is nothing better for wildlife than new browse and we have a major lack of that.  Because of this the harvesting of does is necessary to keep the herd in balance.  If we didn't harvest any does it would lead to smaller and smaller deer.

2 things:

First off My family owns land in bennington county,  it is VERY RARE that I hunt an entire day and do not see multiple deer.  I had two separate occasions of seeing 10+ deer in a day this season.  I also spent 5 days in the NEK hunting and saw deer almost every day and saw multiple bucks including finding a MONSTER buck that had been dead for a week, (I tracked the guy down that shot him through some phone calls and brought him to the buck).   So if you are not seeing deer I suggest you change your tactics!

Secondly the numbers don't lie.  Look at the harvest numbers posted in this thread, almost the same amount of deer were killed this year as in 2005.  This all with a substantially lower number of hunters in the woods.  So to say it is on the decline holds no water. 



I believe the doe harvest is a necessary tool for our future and I also believe the antler restriction should become even stricter.

But the bottom line is habitat, it's no coincidence that NH is harvesting bigger deer every year than we are here.   THEY LOG!

[woodab17]

Meant 2003, not 2005.

[Augen4Hawgs]

The national forest Needs less management.!!! the count for the bigger mature bucks is climbing every year. Your chances are not as good but they are there....Yes! I do believe that a doe harvest is necessary but only when we have a good healthy doe heard. If Your Hunting on land thats all posted up of coarse Your going to see more Deer especially if their are very few Hunting that posted land. I talked to numerous hunters who had a Black powder Doe tag for k2 and most of them said they never saw a doe to shoot. guys that are great hunter and kill bucks every year !....Change in Tactics ?  For Guys that are so succesfull !!! I don't think so You need to Hunt k2. Some area 's do have a good doe heard but thats because they are not giving out way to many doe tags. I totally agree Fish-on-VT. thats all true..the heard is very much out of balance. sounds like bennington is the place to see doe's....I am not talking about bucks!!!!!!!!!