Vermont Deer Season

[ICE_HOOK]

 :(Yes , I have only been hunting for 48 years now, mostly public land ! Private land too but we won't go there ! I thought I would see bunches of spikes every year lately because they were 60 % of the kill before! Haven't seen one all year and neither have my brothers. They must be all bunched up on those food plots that the majority of us dont have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[woodab17]

:(Yes , I have only been hunting for 48 years now, mostly public land ! Private land too but we won't go there ! I thought I would see bunches of spikes every year lately because they were 60 % of the kill before! Haven't seen one all year and neither have my brothers. They must be all bunched up on those food plots that the majority of us dont have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You may be on to something here.  On my land the last few years we have seen on average 4-5 different spikes horns all pre-season, all bow-season, and all rifle season.  But if that is the case you shouldn't be mad about it.  Because these spikes will grow up and most will move away from the private land because only one will dominate.  Where will they go?  Possibly to other nearby private land, but more probable would be to public land.  Moreover they will carry better antlers and more weight from eating well.

[Weedmaster]

it doesn't make alot of sense to me but i used to see 3 or 4 spike bucks every rifle season untill the 3 point rule was introduced. now i have'nt seen a spike in 3 years..... has anyone else noticed this?

Not really, I saw a number of spikes this year. But lets also acknowledge the rule was implemented to save 1 1/2 yo deer and that they come in the form of 6pt & even 8pt as well as spikes. I have let  5pts, 6pts walk because they were only 1 1/2 even though they meet my 3pt rule. But I can honestly say that I have not gone a year when I didn't have an opportunity to take a legal buck under the current rules. I find it hard to believe that with a little effort people dont have the opportunity to kill a legal buck in their area also. I don't think the ills of the deer herd is a result of antler restrictions.

[ZMoney]

I hunt rifle and muzzle up in waterville, VT and I think the spike horn ban has had some positive effects but I'd oppose the 3 to a side. 

The last two season's I've seen the most deer in the woods than ever before.  It could be that I'm just getting to be a better hunter (been hunting now 8 years..24yrs old).   The problem is that I can't find the bucks.  This season I probably saw 80 deer in the woods and only saw one buck....guess what...it was a spike.  And boy did it want to get shot.  Saw him two days in a row and he just walked all around with my scope on him.  At one point he was 15 yards away.

Anyways....where da buck at?

[rawrightII]

dont anyone take this the wrong way. but a majority of the older generation go and hunt their spot, because thats where theyve always gone, someone ( or them) shot a nice deer there once.  whitetails habitat change. the forest changes, logging occurs. just because that spot was once a good whitetail habitat does not mean it always will be.  my father and his friends are the same way, they complain they do not see sny deer. well things change, and the deer move, my god most bucks have a home a range of at least a few miles, what are the odds there going to be on that one little knob when you are? i understand thats not the entire reason why people do not see deer, but i think its a major reason. obviously hunting pressure reflects deer movement. but lets keep in mind, this last deer season was rediculously warm. 50-60 degree temperatures all over the state, those bucks were not moving like they usually would and do.  futhermore the best two weeks to hunt in vermont according to the "rut phase" were the first two weeks of november, which we cant hunt anyway! i dont agree with the state that there is the number of deer here, but keep in mind these factors too when our season sucked so bad.

[nicerack802]

I HAVE SHOT DEER FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS IN A ROW IN VERMONT AND SEEMS TO BE MANY MORE DEER AROUND .... FROM NORTH ABOVE BURLINGTON TO SOUTH OF RUTLAND I SEE MORE DEER  ... BUT I DO NOT THINK 3 ON ONE SIDE IS A GOOD IDEA .
I HUNT IN PA EVERYYEAR AND IT WORKS GREAT BECAUSE THERE IS MORE FARMS AND MORE DEER , THERE IS MUCH BIGGER BUCKS BEING SHOT AND IT HAS BEEN A HUGE SUCCESS FOR THEM , PEOPLE HERE I BELIEVE WOULD STOP BUYING A LISCENCE ALL TOGETHER WHICH WOULD HUURT REVENUE FOR THE STATE ... ITS A BAD IDEA

[ice dog Jack]

I had a bad season last year.Too busy to get out with the bow. I blame the bad year on the weather. Muzzle doe b4 rifle? Bad idea.Use the bow. Coy dogs, killem all. 3 points one side? No friggen way. Poachers, hang em. There the main reason people post their land.(Like it matters to a poacher.) I'm with the Nuge. Strap assassin not bone collector!

[Fish-On-VT]

I threw together a quick online poll, this should be very interesting. 
Please feel free to promote the poll to as many VT outdoors enthusiasts as possible.

http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/476191

Thanks ~ Fish-on-VT

[battalion75]

I HAVE SHOT DEER FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS IN A ROW IN VERMONT AND SEEMS TO BE MANY MORE DEER AROUND .... FROM NORTH ABOVE BURLINGTON TO SOUTH OF RUTLAND I SEE MORE DEER  ... BUT I DO NOT THINK 3 ON ONE SIDE IS A GOOD IDEA .
I HUNT IN PA EVERYYEAR AND IT WORKS GREAT BECAUSE THERE IS MORE FARMS AND MORE DEER , THERE IS MUCH BIGGER BUCKS BEING SHOT AND IT HAS BEEN A HUGE SUCCESS FOR THEM , PEOPLE HERE I BELIEVE WOULD STOP BUYING A LISCENCE ALL TOGETHER WHICH WOULD HUURT REVENUE FOR THE STATE ... ITS A BAD IDEA

I live/hunt/fish in SE PA, but I grew up in northern NH and remember how the winter's are really what determine the amount of deer available for taking.  Our winters aren't anywhere near as severe as in Northern VT/NH, even the one we had this year.  Now if you had food plots as big as our family farms (the ones that are left anyway), you'd have more and bigger deer.  My wife's uncle had alfalfa planted for years, and we always had shooting.  One of the cousins decided to plow under the alfalfa and plant christmas trees, and pretty much killed our success.  Even so, I remember walking around a lot hunting deer as a kid (in NH), and if I saw one I'd better shoot because I wouldn't be likely to see another that year.  Now I sit up in a treestand and wait-huntable land is hard to come by down here-but if I'm patient I get meat.  Usually a doe, but I don't mind.  I do know that there is public land next to mine, and every year since I moved here to this part of PA I've watched the deer run around the borders of the public land.  They know not to go there!  I guess I'm saying that there is a variety of reasons you guys may not be seeing deer, but until you get good food sources to sustain through your long winters there really isn't any hope.  Oh, we hate the coyotes down here too.  Little pukes have even been hit by cars in Philadelphia city limits, wish more would get that treatment!

[DyingBreed]

We definetly need better browse in most areas for winter feed. Personaly I'd like to see the effect of the last reg. for a few more years...say 3....the deer here in the surrounding farms/valley have finally shown some come back in weight. With all the farms out of dairying the numbers and weight went way down, which in turn, pressure went down in our small woods. Seeing some good sighn in the woods now, still very low but it is a possitive dirrection from a few years back. Just an observation from around the "BOW". Whether it be from lack of pressure or the regs.....can't say yet.

[DyingBreed]

On another note...why are we shooting BRED DOES in muzzle loader season? Go to all this trouble to improve herd quality then shoot the program in the foot like that. 

[BUSTERLINES]

i think one of the main problems with the deer herd is the shooting that is going on at night.  there is rumors of two differnt crews in rutland county who are shooting deer from sept to december at night; several a night and pick some up and leave the others.  a couple of months of this and more deer are killed than by coyotes or doe permits.  people talk about it but don't have the guts to get involved with law enforcement to put a hurtin on these guys.  i'd rat out my grandmother if i thought she was killing deer at night.  a friend of a friend heard that one of these crews goes out three or four nights a week and they loose count of how many deer they shoot at and can 't remember where they shot at the deer and don't look for them.  people need to get some guts and help keep the deer safe from the poachers. 

[BUSTERLINES]

In my opinion the deer herd is really getting a pounding at night by "hunters" and no one has the guts to get involved with law enforcement to stop it.  There are at least two crews in rutland county who are shooting up to 3 or 4 deer a night from september to december a few nights a week.  These guys are killing more deer than the coyotes and doe permits and it is sickening.  One of my friends is related to someone in one of the above crews and they lose track of how many deer they snipe at night and they can't find them all and if they do find them and can't find someone to tag them the deer gets dumped somewhere if they even bother to look for it after shooting it.  No one wants to help law enforcement only complain about the deer herd.  Two or three guys shooting three or four deer a night in Mt. Holly or Shrewsbury is going to add up fast!!!  If people took the time to get involved these guys could be seriously smacked down and the deer herd would be in much better shape.  Get involved and call the state police or game wardens and don't be afraid to get involved is what i say.  I am not a big fan of the wardens and state cops, but i am a big fan of deer and deer hunting and am giong to do what i can to help stop this nonsense so me and my family can hunt a buck that we scouted all summer and fall instead of a "ghost" that these wastes shot a 2 am in the morning the night before deer season.  Call, give a statement, get involved!!!

[DyingBreed]

BUSTERLINES: Well said. Get involved. This isn't TV people. When a bullet takes out someone in your family while you're in your house at nite, you will, so why not step up now befor others lose a friend/animal/loved one? It does happen. This is not the example that the public needs to hear/see. All these types do is give more ammo to those who want more regs. inacted. Personaly, the boys here think these types are worth about, no, they are worth less than a PILE OF BULL SNOTT. IDIOTS.

[buckshot464]

I agree arrest the offenders and put there ass in jail for a month or more,  Get in a car and drink and you will go to jail so why not for endangering sleeping citezens with high powered rifles probably when they drunk.
  I call every time I hear a shot,  personaly I have been involved in two arrests of poachers and I am proud of it.  I have many friends who are afraid to get involved,  they think the offenders will come and do something to them or there propery.  I say don't be affraid.  If eveyone gets involved they will be the ones afraid. 
 I know the amount of deer shot illeagaly in Vermont is just astounding,  from spike horns being left in the woods to just blatent shooting of does during every season.   
  People need to realize that taking one for the freezer is old school.  People will not starve if they don't have venison,  they have food pantries and other places for food besides raping our wildlife.  Maybe get a job!
  Also people love to do it with turkeys, I think there should be one fine for all big game. Maybe there is Im not sure.  Jail time would certainly stop the problem.  Taking someones licence that doesn't give a crap isn't going to matter. 
  If our fish and game department spent more time on these issues and less time worring about how many points a deer has it would be better off and so would we!
  I say go back to the 3 inches of anter law! 

[Fish-On-VT]

Loss of you gun, vehicle, license, along with a $1000 per animal fine & 30 days time   

~ Fish-on-VT

[jf5]

3 points a side isn't a trophy regulation. Do not confuse AR's with QDM. Its another tool to improve  b/d ratio and male age structure in VT.

Further antler restrictions will IMPROVE the chance of a youth shooting a smaller buck as AR does not apply to them.

2008 harvest report confrims 2pt AR has worked in VT for the most part.

Many trackers can tell a big buck from a small one before they even see the animal.

Any addition to the AR rule must be accomapnied by habitat work.

There is the option to doe hunt if you are in it for the meat.

[smartpill]

On another note...why are we shooting BRED DOES in muzzle loader season? Go to all this trouble to improve herd quality then shoot the program in the foot like that. 

Good question!!!!
We are shooting doe during muzzleloader that could potentially be carrying 2 possibly 3 fawn. I have always questioned this, why wouldn't we move muzzleloader up before the breeding season. I believe NH has an early muzzleloading season

[buckshot464]

I think we should start only havesting mature trout and pan fish,  anything less than 5 years old has to be released , better yet lets throw all our fish back so that in five years there is tons of them and then no body has to work hard at all to catch fish.  Just drop a line in and bam!   
 Better yet lets not shoot any turkeys with less than 2 inch spurs and no more jakes.  Ah hell lets just stop hunting and fishing for four or five years and then just think of all the good stuff we will have! muaa ha ha ha
I stoll this of another forum and thought it was hillarious but so scary!  Where does it stop!!!!

[finlessbrown]

someone told me that the idea behind the no spike horns was that they want them to be bigger bucks to breed the does to improve the genes' of the herd. this doesn't make any sense to me because if you don't shoot the spikes' then you will be out there longer and have more of a chance of shoting the bigger buck. then the spikes will out number the bigger bucks and would be breeding the does themselves.

[fishandbeer]

Just for fun someday, ask a farmer why he doesn't kill off his healty bred cows to improve the quality of his herd. I think you would get a look that would last a lifetime.......

[FishinIsLife]

Let me start by saying that I have only been in the state for three years, 2 deer seasons. The antler restriction is fine the way it is and has a positive impact on the deer populations and quality. I hunt every second, every minute, every hour, every day that I can get out. I put my time in scouting, I don't have any food plots, I don't bait deer, and I only hunt 3 areas, 2 public lands and 1 private notposted land. Total acreage of each ~<200 acres each none are adjoining. The first year I only hunted public and got this 7pt

I have not seen a single spike horn. This past year I had an 8pt come almost to bow range in early bow, and then I blew a chance at a 10pt. So like someone said just because there used to be deer there doesn't mean there is or even should be deer there now. Have you analyzed the changes in the landscape? Maybe there just isn't the food there used to be. I bet the area that used to have a ton of deer had been logged or clearcut within 2 decades prior to when you stopped seeing deer. If this is true then you had a ton of deer because logging thins the forest and promotes a ton of undergrowth which deer eat, once 20 years or less goes by most of the undergrowth is gone and so are the deer. So if this hits the nail on the head and your favorite spot is your property or privately owned not state land then take a chainsaw and fell a few large trees to open the canopy and if possible leave the tree attached to the stump so it too will continue to bud and leaf out. If I'm wrong show me your old prime spot and I will tell you why you don't see any deer.

[Weedmaster]

Good question!!!!
We are shooting doe during muzzleloader that could potentially be carrying 2 possibly 3 fawn. I have always questioned this, why wouldn't we move muzzleloader up before the breeding season. I believe NH has an early muzzleloading season

The most important reason to have an early muzzy season is habitat preservation, why let deer you plan to remove from the herd eat a month or two of the food supply. On the breed doe end of it, it doesn't matter when you kill it, early or late the end result the next spring is that it will not bear any fawns. Taking does is a must and an earlier muzzy would appeal to those who still hate the thought of killing bred doe. But to be sure F&W needs to do a better job identifing the areas of that need rebuilding of the herd and issue fewer permits.

[Weedmaster]

Just for fun someday, ask a farmer why he doesn't kill off his healty bred cows to improve the quality of his herd. I think you would get a look that would last a lifetime.......

This quote has no relevance to the topic! The farmer controls how many if any of his cows get bred, and if he is a dairy frmr ask what happens to the calf if it is a bull. While you may care about the deer,comparing apples to oranges will not help the situation.

[vermonner]

Have been reading this thread with interest.  I agree wholeheartedly with many of the "habitat changes, so must I" philosophies.  We had some good hunting where I was in the NEK and 15 years later, it has slowed down significantly.  Habitat Changes and Deer will move to find more suitable habitat.  Therefore, so must I--or I can sit around the woodstove in a barren deer camp and beeyotch/pi$$ and moan with the rest of them and continue to not see deer.  The 2009 season was a dud for me and my crew for a variety of reasons: 1.)  We had a REAL Vermont winter in 2008-2009 with prolonged below zero and significant snow depth 2.) it was hotter than hell 3.) we were hunting a new spot and I didn't get to scout.  I firmly believe that I have to play amateur biologist and find habitat that holds deer and I also have to put in my time scouting. 

Lastly, any Vermont Deer herd official who alleges our deer herd numbers six figures is truly full of crap.  That is all about ca$h, nothing more. 
These numbers are like snowfall reports  from ski resorts--not believable.
happy hunting all

[fishandbeer]

It seems that quite a few of the people responding to this thread are doing so in a positive vain. That to me is strange as everybody that I speak with  (and that's a lot cause I love to talk hunting) had a miserable year last year. A large portion of those folks are talking about hunting elsewhere next year. Many of those people have never hunted out of state before. They never needed to, but now feel they have to. I feel bad for the local merchants as they will be the ones to suffer. If things are so positive, how come sales of tags keep dropping, and the actual kill keeps going down. Wait till you see the figures for lost licence revenue this upcoming season. I remember when the state used to post the buck kill, now they post the total deer kill because the buck kill figures are a joke. Like I said before they want this state to become a trophy deer hunting state, and they have done that well because if you get a buck in this state it is a trophy...

[vermonner]

I am CERTAINLY not saying that deer hunting in Vermont is rosy.  I'll be the first to say it sucks.  That being said, it is no worse than when I started hunting in the 80's and deer were then few and far between.  Then the population cycled up, deer huntiong got good and now they have cycled down again.  It's always easiest to blame management tactics and ring the alarm bells (this is why I no longer subscribe to F&S or OL--just one alarmist article after another), but I'm not going to start shrieking like a maniac about gov't wrongdoings, mismanagement, etc etc etc.  Here are a few decades worth of hunting experince:  Deer populations move as habitat changes.  Populations fluctuate from busts to boom and back again.  Winter severity affects a deer herd negatively.  EVERY severe winter following a number of mild winters, results in the hunting sucking for 3 years.   Having seen this occur 3-4 times in my life, I'm not so freaked out about it.  Hunter success percentage remains around 10-13% for the state, as it traditionally has for 4 decades and that is not a statisic driven by number of licenses or number of hunters in the woods, it's a precentage.  I'm not saying that I have the right opinion or anyone has the wrong opinion, but let's put down the alarm bells.  Lastly, it's been my experience that the people who do the MOST complaining, put in the LEAST effort--this is why I nbo longer hunt the camp I hunted in for a looooooong time

[fishandbeer]

Vermonner,
If you started hunting in the 1980's then you started right after 2-3 years of RIFLE doe hunting. You are correct back then you were lucky to have gotten a deer and happy to see any at all. They stopped butchering off the herd, and it grew back very well. Then the hunting was very good. I just think that they have removed way too many animals from the landscape. They have given out doe tags during black powder season every year, even after the winters of 2000-2001. Both those winters were devestating to the herd, and other local states adjusted what they were doing. Not the revenue strapped Fish and Game Department here though they just kept giving them out. I talked to a warden this year and he was telling me about a few families he was watching. He told me one family has taken over 30 deer last summer and fall that he knew of. That was in one town. Armed with that knowledge there was still a ton of doe tags given out for that zone. I just want you to know that I hunt as hard as anybody, and have taken over 50 deer in Vermont alone. i am not new to this and have seen the trends as well. The problem is our wildlife department does not adapt to the changes well. A lot of people talk about habitat. We need the woods in this state logged, so we can get some second growth going. The woods are just too mature to hold the good deer numbers they used to. That's where the focus needs to be. the state is puhing for people to grow foodplots. Well I have grown a number of them over the last few years, and they hardly get touched. They do get hit hard in the spring though when the deer seem to need it most. That is why I plant them, but it gets frustrating when you spend that much effort to help keep deer alive, then between the poachers and the coyotes and the doe tags the numbers keep dropping in the area I frequent. Kinda Sucks I might add         

[Leafmountain10]

Here is a buck from Maine shot in 2006.  It was the smallest of three taken from our camp that year.  Out of 7 hunters 6 filled tags.  Don't feel too bad about Vermont's deer heard right now ... this year the camp was skunked and I don't think anyone even saw a racked buck!  They have some serious problems now and many factors to blame .... snow, predators, too many doe tags are some of the popular targets.

From a biology standpoint I agree,  pretty much every animal population goes up and down depending on many factors.  The trick is getting it to stay at a level that the land can support while maintaining a healthy deer heard.  As hunters we want to see a few 200+ boys with some nice mass.

I would like to see the state help more with public land as well as landowners to plant crops (food plots, apple trees, standing corn) and manage their land for maximum forage for our game species. 

[iceman55]

OK my two cents. I'm 55 yrs. old been a vermonter, hunter all my life. Back in the day the old timers never shot anything under a 8 pt. If you did you got ragged on . I was the only one that bow hunted that I knew except for a few flatlanders, no mechanical releases. bow hunting rifle that was it. saw herds of 20 or more every where you went. Now you got Bow, all month and after rifle one week then youth week end then rifle then muzzleloader witch I have the first state record. Now they want more, First YOU DON"T NEED DOE HUNTING, POACHER are taking care of that, then rd. kill. Now I'm not totally against youth hunting but one free deer an that's it. the problem with youths today everything is handed to them. ZONE hunting that works really good, RIGHT! That's like a free for all go where you want. Then put all the doe permits on line till there all gone WHAT THE HELL!!!! Hunting to me is being in the outdoors enjoying nature NOT KILLING SOMETHING. DON"T get me wrong I like getting a deer . I taught my self too hunt no youth day in my time and turned out to be a successful hunter , get a deer just about every year on PUBLIC LAND no food plots ,bait or what ever. This state can put out trophies if you give it a chance. Antler restriction is good for me and I"m a meat hunter. SO GET OUT of your trucks and road hunting and you may get a deer. FOR the people shooting and look after stay the HELL OUT OF THE WOODS your nothing but a poacher and NOT A HUNTER. Ask that guy that killed his son spring turkey hunting BEARDED turkeys ONLY.