Whats up with the Hell Creek Marina?

[fishin7]

Not calling you a liar ice troll nor am I saying you have not found elk carcases on a frozen peck.   I'm just not agreeing with your comment,

 "Three Coyotes can easily kill a bull elk on that ice under the right conditions. They simply run the animal to exhaustion and then pick away until fatigue and blood loss takes its toll".

Your right about border collies and Australian shepherds herding cattle.  You have to remember herding domesticated animals has been bred into those dogs for hundreds of years.  Coyotes are not herders.  They are a stalk and ambush predator.  Usually hunting by themselves or with a mate, occasionally you will see a group of coyotes together but not very often.  Not saying coyotes don't chase deer, antilope and maybe the occasional sick, young or hurt elk on to the ice to kill them but I just don't see a mature bull elk being scared enough from a couple of little yotes to run themselves to exhaustion or blindly onto the ice.  Have you ever watched how long it takes a pack of wolves to take down a mature bull elk?  Its a battle to the end and were talking about 5, 6, or more 100 to 130 lbs wolves doing the work not three 25 to 40 lbs coyotes. 

[IceTroll]

I really do understand what your trying to say but we are talking about polished ice here. Not bare ground or the deap snow that Wolves usually hunt in. So maybe its 4 Coyotes or 5 Coyotes. Doesnt really matter how many but a Coyote can make up for his size disadvantage by running an animal onto polished ice. I also strongly disagree with you that an animal as intelligent as a Coyote or Wolf doesnt learn to herd if that is the technique that serves them the best. Many animals are capable of adapting to their environment and learning new methods that best fit their needs. Wild predators learning to herd is nothing new. Killer Whales and Porpoises are a perfect example. If Coyotes did not have the ability to adapt so perfectly well, they would have been extinct centuries ago. Fifty or sixty yeras ago mankind made many attempts to wipe K9 predators from the face of the earth in the lower 48 and with Wolves they succeeded in many places. Not so with the Coyote. Not only did the Coyote species survive that onslaught but they thrived in its wake and are found in more places in the lower 48 than any other time in our history. They did that because of their ability to adapt. Adapting a hunting technique that minimizes their expended energy, especially in winter, is the ultimate form of adaptation.

[fishin7]

Ice troll have you actually witnessed this act of coyotes herding elk on to the ice and killing them?  Because if you say you have actually seen it then I will eat crow.  I hate to beat a dead horse and not to mention argue with you about this because I think your a stand up guy and a hell of an ice fisherman, but just because you find a elk carcase on the ice, it does not make it an "easy kill" for some coyotes.  There are a lot of factors that could have come into play with that dead elk.  It could have been severely injured from a hunting wound.  It could have been week, sick and dying anyways.  Your spot on about how amazing coyotes are in adapting to their environment to survive, but I don't think them pursuing healthy, mature elk as a food source would be a wise decision for the coyote.  All I'm trying to say is I don't agree with your statement that "Three Coyotes can easily kill a bull elk on that ice under the right conditions. They simply run the animal to exhaustion and then pick away until fatigue and blood loss takes its toll".  There would have to be a lot of factors that would have to come into play for few coyotes to kill an elk on polished ice or anywhere for that matter.   Cool thing is I'm going to be down at hell creek around the same time you are, so maybe we can discuss this in more detail in person over an ice cold beer or a hot cup of coffee!   

[Krakkon]

Elk and deer can slip on ice and not be able to get up... They are probably dead or near dead when predators find them in elk cases anyway..

[IceTroll]

I have never seen the Coyotes make a kill on the ice. Would love to witness it. The evidence is certainly there and you are correct in the statement about the possibility of others factor being present, I agree 100%. That being said, its hard to argue with the fact that a K9 would have a distinct advantage on ice over a hoofed ungalate. I would also agree that the term "easily" was probably a poor choice of words or even putting an exact number to it. Maybe its 5 Coyotes or 7 or even 10. Point is that they are doing it. I will stick to my guns though because I have seen too many carcasses to convince me otherwise. In my line of work, I tend to draw conclusions, that are usually accurate, from evidence  . I spoke to a trapper once that routinely flies Ft. Peck and even does some arial gunning in the area. He told me on one such flights he counted over 75 carcasses of deer, elk and antelope on the ice between the UL Bend and somewhere around Gilbert Bay. Granted that is probably a 100 miles or more of lake but you have to admit, that many kill sites is pretty strong evidence that the Coyote population has learned a little trick that they have gotten pretty good at over the generations. I am quite certain that the adults probably teach the pups how to hunt in this manner as well.

Would love to get together if your on the ice at the same time as me. You cant miss me. I will either be in the campground or I will be camped out on the ice in front of the boat ramp if there is enough ice to support my rig. You cant miss it. Its a Dodge pickup that is camo from top to bottom with a big ATV carrier rack mounted in the bed. Very distinct to say the least. My partner just called me and stated he may not be able to make the trip because of a planned change of ownership in the store he is working (Long story but part of the Sportsmans warehouse re-buy of some of the stores they sold years ago). If he cant make the trip I will be on my own so any company would be welcome.