Jawjackers

[NEZ]

Just wanted to clarify the use of jawjackers or automatic hook setting devices.   I was out on ice on Saturday and did speak with a fish warden.  Jawjackers are not permitted to be used in PA.  You are not permitted to use anything that sets the hook from a biting fish.  This is a rule from approximately 100 years ago.  Harrisburg has instructed the wardens to enforce this rule and some wardens are giving tickets for these devices, luckily I met a really cool warden and he just warned us about them.  Nez

[RuttNutt]

You should have asked him to show you in the regulations........... .

I will be using mine until somebody shows me in the regs where they are illegal! 🙄

[Spider1]

Rutt, unfortunately it isn't up to them to show you. You're supposed to learn the laws on your own. A lot of this stuff is up to interpretation and this may be the way they are interpreting it now. They should clarify their position and let the public know about it.

I just searched around looking for PFBC laws and all I could find was the regulations book which had nothing in it that pertained to this issue. Does anyone else have access to the actual laws?

[Huntindave]

Rutt, unfortunately it isn't up to them to show you. You're supposed to learn the laws on your own.

How does an officer write a citation with out showing on the citation you are accused of violating?  Any time I've asked or questioned, the officers have always quoted the exact statue number.  That is their job to know the statues they are enforcing.

I once had an officer stop by my location and advise me that what I was doing at the time was against the local regulations.  When I asked him to show me the actual regulation, he then discovered that the regulation he was quoting did NOT prohibit my activity.  The officers have to be able to give you the reference number of the law they think you violated.  So YES, they have to "show you" the statue number.

[RuttNutt]

I just searched around looking for PFBC laws and all I could find was the regulations book which had nothing in it that pertained to this issue. Does anyone else have access to the actual laws?

That's what I am saying, SPider! I have not seen anything in the regulations that would prohibit it. SO, I will not blindly take the word of a PF&BC officer that it is illegal.....I want to see it in writing. I have a feeling it is going to take someone to get a citation and then take it to court to fight it, to find out what law they are referencing.

[Spider1]

that's why I'm asking if anyone has maybe a link to the laws. I can't find anything in the regulations but I can't find the actual laws either. I can go to the game commission website and find the actual game laws for hunting, why can't I go to the PFBC site and find the laws pertaining to fishing? Or am I looking in the wrong place?

[Spider1]

That's what I am saying, SPider! I have not seen anything in the regulations that would prohibit it. SO, I will not blindly take the word of a PF&BC officer that it is illegal.....I want to see it in writing. I have a feeling it is going to take someone to get a citation and then take it to court to fight it, to find out what law they are referencing.

The regulations booklet is just a summary, it isn't all the laws. But there should be a place on their website that you can find the actual laws so we could look this stuff up.

[RuttNutt]

I agree Spider! They shouldn't make it this difficult to find the answer...……………...

[NEZ]

I agree that it is difficult for us to follow the rules if we don't know about them.  He did state that it was 63.35 something in the regulation book about self triggering devices are illegal to use.  He stated that some wardens are handing out citations for this and others are just giving out warnings at this time.  Just depends on the warden that catches you. Don't want to have an weekend get worse by getting a ticket.  The only way to get this changed is to write to the executive warden on the "Fishing Hole" website.  This is an old regulation that needs to be updated.  I questioned him how come this was not permitted, but is a boat that trolling hooks the fish is allowed.  We'll see, but as anglers, we need to go and write a concern to them and ask them to relook at this outdated rule.  Nez

[RuttNutt]

I just sent the following e-mail to the PF&BC:

To whom it may concern,

I am an avid ice-fisherman and I have been using JawJackers instead of tip-ups for years now. I was surprised to hear recently that some PF&BC officers were stating they are illegal in Pennsylvania. I looked in the regulations and cannot find anything that prohibit their use. Since they are not an electronic device and essentially function the same as a tip-up, I cannot see why they would be illegal. All they do is bend the rod and when the fish pulls on the line, it releases the stored energy in the rod to set the hook. I have actually found that they are much better than tip ups or dead sticking since 9 out of 10 fish I catch are hooked in the lip and are much easier to release. It does not give the fish a chance to swallow the hook deeply, as is frequently the case with tip ups and dead sticking.

From talking to other fisherman, it seems PF&BC officers have different interpretations of the law and some are saying they are illegal, some are saying they are not, and some are not sure, so they are giving warnings.

Could you please show me the law(if there IS one) that makes these devices illegal? I want to follow the rules, but with all due respect, I will not blindly follow what someone says without seeing the law in writing. Especially since there seems to be so much confusion and interpretation involved.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.

                Respectfully,

                             Perry Hartmann
                             Milford, Pa.

[Huntindave]

The regulations booklet is just a summary, it isn't all the laws. But there should be a place on their website that you can find the actual laws so we could look this stuff up.

Here is a link to the actual PA code;  http://www.pacodeandbulletin.gov/secure/pacode/data/058/chapter63/058_0063.pdf


§ 63.5. Methods of fishing. It is unlawful to use a method for taking fish from the waters of this Commonwealth, including boundary lakes and rivers, unless the use of the method is specifically authorized by law or this part.

§ 63.6. Authorized devices for game fish, baitfish and fishbait. (a) It is unlawful to fish for game fish with more than three lines of any description, whether fished by rod or by hand, at one time except while ice fishing in accordance with § 63.10 (relating to ice fishing). There is not a restriction on the number of hooks used for fishing for game fish, except when fishing in the Pymatuning Reservoir where no more than three hooks shall be attached to each line used in fishing. Rods, lines and hooks shall be under the immediate control of the person using them. A fishing device shall be deemed to be under the immediate control of the person using it if, when the terminal device (hook, bait or lure) is taken by a fish, the person using the device has direct control over it and it is not connected at that point to a casting or depth placement aid such as a casting boat or downrigger. Casting or depth placement aids such as downriggers or small remote controlled boats are not prohibited by this chapter.

§ 63.10. Ice fishing. (a) Ice fishing is fishing through holes in the ice. (b) It is unlawful while ice fishing to use more than five fishing devices, which may consist of rods, hand lines, tip ups or any combination thereof. Each device shall contain a single fishing line. There is not a restriction on the number of hooks that may be used for ice fishing, except when fishing in the Pymatuning Reservoir where no more than three hooks shall be attached to each line used in fishing. (c) Rods, lines and tip-ups used in ice fishing shall be under the immediate control of the person using the same. (d) It is unlawful to fish through holes in the ice that measure more than 10 inches between the farthest points as measured in any direction.

[RuttNutt]

Ok, now I am REALLY confused! This is the response I got:


The Commission has determined that the use of this device, or similar devices by other manufacturers or under different brand names, are NOT authorized for use in the Commonwealth. Although the regulations do not list all unauthorized devices it does state “It is unlawful to use a method of fishing for taking fish from the waters of the Commonwealth, including boundary lakes and rivers, unless the use of the method is specifically authorized by law or regulations set forth in this part.”  The regulations specific to ice fishing state “All rods, lines and tip-ups used by a person engaged in ice fishing shall be under the immediate control of the person using the same.”
 

LtCol Thomas J Burrell

PA Fish & Boat Commission

Bureau of Law Enforcement

717-705-7866

“not under my control?!”    My JawJackers are under my control as much as your tipups or deadsticks!
Somebody please help me understand!

[AGC]

Just wanted to clarify the use of jawjackers or automatic hook setting devices.   I was out on ice on Saturday and did speak with a fish warden.  Jawjackers are not permitted to be used in PA.  You are not permitted to use anything that sets the hook from a biting fish.  This is a rule from approximately 100 years ago.  Harrisburg has instructed the wardens to enforce this rule and some wardens are giving tickets for these devices, luckily I met a really cool warden and he just warned us about them.  Nez

You are not permitted to use anything that SETS THE HOOK from a biting fish.

While HOLDING your jigging rod a fish bites your hook. YOU SET THE HOOK.

When your flag goes up on your tip up, you grab the line to feel if a fish may have your hook in it's mouth. If so YOU SET THE HOOK.

Never fished a jawjacker but I think it goes like this. You place your rod in the device. A fish bites your hook.  Remember ( You are not permitted to use anything that SETS THE HOOK from a biting fish ). A fish bites your hook and the jawjacker (DEVICE) SETS  THE  HOOK, not you.

[RuttNutt]

Where do you see anything about "setting the hook" in the above response from the PF&BC? 

It talks about "being under control"...…………………………………...how are my JawJackers not under my control but my buddy's tip ups ARE?! Or my other buddies using deadsticks?! It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Spider1]

As far as I can see there is no actual rule against using a device like this. As suggested it's basically the same as trolling. I don't see anything about hook setting devices, in fact the Lt Col says  "regulations do not list all unauthorized devices". If I use a tree branch and string to fish with and it's not specifically listed, is it then considered illegal? The jawjacker is in the same amount of immediate control as a tip up. It seems that this is something that is being interpreted in a specific manner and would be a good topic for discussion at a PFBC meeting.

[RuttNutt]

I agree Spider!

[RuttNutt]

You are not permitted to use anything that SETS THE HOOK from a biting fish.

Where do you see this in the PA Regulations?

While HOLDING your jigging rod a fish bites your hook. YOU SET THE HOOK.

Not always! In fact, just yesterday I was re-setting one of my JawJackers when I look over and see my jigging rod pulsating with a fish on the line. Apparently as I was tending to the JawJacker, a trout hit my jig while it was in essence a dead stick in the rod holder. All I had to do was reel him in! 

Never fished a jawjacker but I think it goes like this. You place your rod in the device. A fish bites your hook.  Remember ( You are not permitted to use anything that SETS THE HOOK from a biting fish ). A fish bites your hook and the jawjacker (DEVICE) SETS  THE  HOOK, not you.

Again NOT always!    While setting one of my JawJackers yesterday, I was watching the bait drop down thru the water column and before it could reach the desired depth I see a trout on the flasher and the next thing I know it is stripping line off my spool before I could close the bail. When I closed the bail, it hooked itself! Never even got to SET the device! (or the hook!)

[Spider1]

Not always! In fact, just yesterday I was re-setting one of my JawJackers when I look over and see my jigging rod pulsating with a fish on the line. Apparently as I was tending to the JawJacker, a trout hit my jig while it was in essence a dead stick in the rod holder. All I had to do was reel him in! 

So you're saying you weren't in immediate control of your fishing rod? You can get a ticket for that it would seem.

[RuttNutt]

I know, right?! So apparently dead sticking is illegal too?! 

[jimhaney08]

I don't own any JawJackers or similar products.  But the analogy to the boat setting the hook while trolling is compelling!  The deadstick rod not being attended to would be like a standard tip-up in my mind.  I think the PA FBC should definitely provide an agency wide clarification on the matter.

[ajv5148]

I use the rubber band method on my tip ups and the elasticity sets the hook when the fish runs. Is that illegal now too?

[AGC]

Again NOT always!    While setting one of my JawJackers yesterday, I was watching the bait drop down thru the water column and before it could reach the desired depth I see a trout on the flasher and the next thing I know it is stripping line off my spool before I could close the bail. When I closed the bail, it hooked itself! Never even got to SET the device! (or the hook!)

"When I closed the bail, it hooked itself" while you were in control of your legal device. The action of the jawjacker setting the hook is the problem. When I get clarification from the PFBC I'll report to the ICE Gods.

[RuttNutt]

I don't own any JawJackers or similar products.  But the analogy to the boat setting the hook while trolling is compelling!  The deadstick rod not being attended to would be like a standard tip-up in my mind.  I think the PA FBC should definitely provide an agency wide clarification on the matter.

I agree 100%!

[RuttNutt]

The action of the jawjacker setting the hook is the problem.

Where in the above referenced Pa regulations do you see anything about “hook setting?”

[fatty crusher]

Nah let's just make the rules up as we go or how we feel that day. Laws governing people's freedom should be left up to the opinion of the officer/warden and should be able to change depending on how their day is going... let's get real here. If it isn't in writing I'm going to interpret the way I see most ethical. I agree, be polite and simply enlighten the ones questioning. I completely agree with your letter and maybe it is just the first step for the game commission to adapt to our fast changing sport. They kind of have to have it together if they are going to write tickets because any die hard ice Fisher would take it to court and solve this mess.

[Spider1]

the way to get a problem like this solved or at least seriously considered is to go to a PFBC board meeting and speak to the board. The person to do this would need to have their facts straight and speak respectfully. I've been to game commission meetings where guys took the time to sign up, waited and then started mouthing off to the commission board. Didn't do anyone any good. I saw a guy go up once that was 3 sheets to the wind and try to be a wise guy. Didn't work either. This is the sort of problem that someone needs to step up and speak about or we will all just have to live with it.

I nominate RuttNutt, he's been through some game commission meetings and knows how this game gets played and he is also somewhat vested in it. Go get 'em Rutt 

[RuttNutt]

You're right SPider- and that is in the back of my mind. Just wanted to see if this could be resolved without having to go to a quarterly meeting.

I was hoping maybe Matt from JawJackers would weigh in here with his insight. I e-mailed him with the link to this thread.

Well, I plan to do all I can to get some clarification on this, and if need be try to change the rules.

[Spider1]

It would be a good thing for him to get involved. The PFBC is basically saying his device is no longer legal in PA. I'm betting that will take a chunk of change out of his pocket. But you and I know nothing in PA will ever get done until that wheel starts squeaking... a lot!

[Gunflint]

Just wanted to clarify the use of jawjackers or automatic hook setting devices.   I was out on ice on Saturday and did speak with a fish warden.  Jawjackers are not permitted to be used in PA.  You are not permitted to use anything that sets the hook from a biting fish.  This is a rule from approximately 100 years ago.  Harrisburg has instructed the wardens to enforce this rule and some wardens are giving tickets for these devices, luckily I met a really cool warden and he just warned us about them.  Nez

Nothing new here...they have always been illegal in Minnesota as well. Here it is in the regulations:

What fishing methods are illegal?
• Using explosives, firearms, chemicals (not including a scented bait), spring devices that impale or hook fish, or electricity to take fish

[RuttNutt]

It would be a good thing for him to get involved. The PFBC is basically saying his device is no longer legal in PA. I'm betting that will take a chunk of change out of his pocket. But you and I know nothing in PA will ever get done until that wheel starts squeaking... a lot!

Yep, it worked for the Crossbow Manufacturers at the PGC meetings...…………………………………………..