SAWBELLIES

[watkin]

I was wondering if anyone knew where i could order sawbellies on line.

[bigfish1556]

Can they actually ship those things?  The seem to turn belly up when I look at them wrong

[IceGeek]

I doubt they would make any kind of journey...maybe put a dozen in a tank the size of a swimming pool and half of them might be alive when you get them...Anyways to answer your question I doubt it!

[fishingking]

I guess there are a couple of baitshops that sell them near the NYC res's theres one in Phenicia NY (spelling) near the Alcove Res I believe (whichever res that the Esopus Creek runs into or out of) I know that guy has them saw the sign there once when i went by going to the city
But they are like trout need cold water and plenty of Oxygen to survive

[crappieslayer22]

if u look a sawbellies rong they die  i use them over at kucka lake in the summer for smallies and big trout

[JeffreyKrow]

What exactly is a sawbelly? Never heard of them. Is there a picture??
                                                                                            JK

[IceGeek]

another name for them are alewives....

[JeffreyKrow]

Arent they the mainstay of the big fish on lake ontario?? I would think that there would be a lot available, but now that I think about it, I never saw them advertised as bait. Whenever we are trolling the lake and come across a bait ball on the finder, we always figure Alewives. Got to be a super bait.
                                                                                                              JK

[fishingking]

[bwalleye]

According to some reports I've read, the big fish that eat them are under-nourished because the alewives lack certain nutrients...or something like that.

[fishingking]

Yeah that was my theory that the bigger fish that have big heads and are skinny  is because for one they are old and two because they are mainly eating just alewives as their diet which IMO have a lack of good nurishment for the fish.

[dwayne]

I guess there are a couple of baitshops that sell them near the NYC res's theres one in Phenicia NY (spelling) near the Alcove Res I believe (whichever res that the Esopus Creek runs into or out of) I know that guy has them saw the sign there once when i went by going to the city
But they are like trout need cold water and plenty of Oxygen to survive

Ashoken reservoir is the one your talking about..

[FISHON-2]

According to d.e.c. they have released alot of walleye in otsego to delete the alwive(sawbelly)population.Apparently they use alot of oxygen when there are large numbers of them.It is the main source of food for the salmon & lakers in there,and the lakers are far from under nourished they are FAT.
                                                                       CLAY

[bigfish1556]

Sawbellies, aka Alewife, provide excellent forage for many species including salmonids and walleye in the great lakes, finger lakes and elsewhere.  The problem is they have high levels of thiaminase (an enzyme that breaks down one of the "B" vitamins).  This doesn't do much in the way of harm to the adult fish that eat them, but does cause a problem leading to declines in successful natural reproduction, aka early mortality syndrome.  Because of this enzyme in the sawbellies, the fishes' eggs do not have enough thiamine (vitamin B), and the fish larvae die within days of hatching.  This problem is alleviated in the hatcheries (e.g. Altmar) by bathing the eggs in a thiamine bath prior to incubation. Unfortunately the trout/salmon don't get this option when spawning naturally in the streams    I only know this is true for salmonids, not sure about walleye etc.

Still make great bait if you can keep them lively - try putting a small amount of sea salt in your bait bucket (i.e. a pinch) and keep them aerated to make them last longer.

[JJ]

While they may make good bait, please  DO NOT USE THEM in lakes where they don't already exist as they are considered an "invasive species."  They have recently been discovered in Lake Champlain and major changes in that fishery are expected as a result; mostly perch and smelt will be affected, there won't be anymore.

Currently, Alewives have been singled out by many groups concerned with Lake George, including the LGA and the Lake George Fishing Alliance.  We definately do not want to see them spread south from Champlain, and the only way this can happen is from an irresponsible or malicious person introducing them.  If this ever happens, the excellent perch fishery will be lost, along with the natural lake trout population.

[JJ]

John,
That information came from a DEC fisheries biologist, and while we might see bigger perch, the numbers will decrease significantly.  Irregardless, they will do way more harm than good and we do not want them introduced at all costs, remember the term "invasive species."

[IceGeek]

The finger lakes have good populations of perch, and they coexist with alewives....maybe there would be more perch without the alewives but the size would definately decrease.  Although invasive species are just that "invasive" sometimes they actually may do more good than harm.  The round goby which was touted as the worst thing to happen to lake erie may in fact turn out to be a good thing.  They feed on zebra mussles, a species which is thought to have more mpact on the biomass of the lakes than the goby.  In the end no one really knows how the introduction of certain species will play out....there are way too many factors involved

[JJ]

Exactly my point, the good news is that the importance of the fishery has been recognized by groups like Lake George Park Commission and the LGA.  Formerly they had targeted eurasian milfoil and zebra mussels as threats to the ecology of the lake, they have recently added alewives to that list.

[fish boy]

Will they really affect the perch fishing that much JJ?  In the one reservoir(Cannonsville a NYC supply) there were huge numbers of alewifes but it was also a great perch fishery with many fish up to 15" and lots of small ones too.  They seemed to coexist nicely there and it seemed to help produce larger perch.  I know they will damage walleye fisheries from what I've read in Walleye Insider.  I think the alewifes will eat the walleye fry or their eggs

You are correct on the Alewives eating walleye fry. They make it very difficult to stock walleye fry in lakes that have them,  Otisco for instance, Thats why lakes with alewives don't generally get stocked with fry they get stocked with pond fings or advanced fings, both much larger products.

[stringer]

caught a laker from otsego tuesday far from starving or thin tape measure around belly 22inches 36in length 18 pounds on the scale!!!

[Retired ECO]

 Fellow sports: That's why I enjoy this "web-site" so much !!!!  At times the good information like cream raises to the top. IceGeek, right on about the Fingerlakes and the great perch populations along with alewifes, the primary forage for said Fingerlakes. Also, Capt JJ and Bigfish 1556 have some great information !!!! Most lakes that alewifes are in, the smelt population has declined but the zebra mussels have contributed to the smelt decline. It is interesting and sometimes sad that nothing seems to remain the same !!!!!!

[marshrat]

This should be of some help to explain it to you if not send me a PM and i will try to explain it better

Link Between Lake Trout Reproductive Failure and Thiamine
By Christopher Neal

The great lakes are known for their phenomenal lake trout fishing are currently under investigation for a drastic decrease in population. Could this be due in part to the over abundance of invasive species? Maybe, maybe not. Through the course of this speech, I will explain what researchers at the Northern Appalachian Research Laboratory in Wellsboro have found to be the link to the decrease in the population of lake trout. Current studies reveal that we may not see drastic population changes in our lifetime but future generations may not be so lucky. Imagine fishing on one of the great lakes and not catching a prized lake trout.
   
In the great lakes, lake trout primarily feed on alewives, better known as sawbellys. From this forage fish, the lake trout receive an essential nutrient called Thiamine. Thiamine is a form of vitamin B. It is needed to metabolize carbohydrates as well as being responsible for transmission of high-speed nerve impulses. Because thiamine is a water-soluble vitamin, it is essential that it is consumed daily.
This may sound good for the lake trout but in reality the overabundance of this invasive species could mean the end to their population. Let me explain.  The alewife also contains a substance known as thiaminase, an anti-thiamine compound.  Because the alewife is one of the most common forage fish found in the great lakes, the consumption of the alewife also destroys the thiamine relayed to the lake trout.
This phenomenon means an immediate thiamine deficiency in the offspring known as Early Mortality Syndrome or EMS.  The adult fish will produce thiamine deficient eggs. EMS has been detected in the sac fry and fry populations. Symptoms of EMS directly caused by the deficiency of thiamine are the loss of equilibrium, swimming in a spiral pattern even death.  Lake trout is not the only species in the great lakes known to be suffering from EMS. Brown trout, salmon, and steelhead also suffer from this.

 Researchers have found that the anti-thiamine compound, thiaminase induces EMS and impairs reproductive success. They have found no connection with hatchery practices, animal genetics, or pathogens.  EMS is not caused by a contaminant.
  It is also know that Thiaminase is carried in other forage fish like smelt and perch.  The outcome of prey containing the thiaminase leads to a population of thiamine deficient predators, our sports fish of trout, salmon and steelhead. Thiamine deficiency is also known to affect reproduction.  It reduces their disease resistance and immune response to pathogens which can lead to death. 

The Thiamine Concentration has to be at a certain level to be classified as having EMS in Fry mortality, it is more then 1.5 nmol/g (nano moles (this is 1millionth of a gram). Secondly it affects occurrences where it is less then 4 nmol/g.

Efforts are being made to help combat this situation. The most promising solution is to try to reduce the alewife population by stocking Chinook salmon, which would feed upon alewives or increase the popularity of commercial fishing for alewives. Currently in Lake Huron the alewife population has crashed and the lake trout are reproducing naturally!!   
 
The population of lake trout reproduction has drastically decreased over the last 10 years due to the lack of thiamine in their diets. The Thiamine deficiency known to cause EMS leads to mortality in fry and adult lake trout. Major lakes of concern are Lake Michigan and Lake Ontario. Fifty percent of the fry from the lake trout taken from these lakes die from EMS.

[watkin]

wow I'm impressed all i asked for is where i could purchase saw bellies and i got a lesson in marine biology.

[marshrat]

wow I'm impressed all i asked for is where i could purchase saw bellies and i got a lesson in marine biology.

LOL we here at IS tend to out do are selfs

[Ray4852]

Watkin you are not going to find sawbillies this time of year. Use another bait, smelt or shiners. Sawbellies are too deep right now. I’m glad the smelt are starting to die out. The smelt has done more harm to the natural reproduction of lake trout. Some day the sawbelly is going to die out too. The gobies are the up and coming new bait fish. I would rather see a lake full of ciscoes then these sawbellies.

[marshrat]

Watkin you are not going to find sawbillies this time of year. Use another bait, smelt or shiners. Sawbellies are too deep right now. I’m glad the smelt are starting to die out. The smelt has done more harm to the natural reproduction of lake trout. Some day the sawbelly is going to die out too. The gobies are the up and coming new bait fish. I would rather see a lake full of ciscoes then these sawbellies.

You don't know what your talking about. If you did any research on it you would know that the sawbellies are the problem with the reproduction in lake trout and the sawbellies will die out sooner then the smelt because there are going to be programs put in to eliminate them

[camo_fish]

  I know they will damage walleye fisheries from what I've read in Walleye Insider.  I think the alewifes will eat the walleye fry or their eggs

Smelt do too  that is eat the walleye fry and eggs.  that is way there aren't many left in Lake Pleasant and Sacandaga Lake up in Speculator.  Someone years ago dumped out there bait bucket of smelt in the lake over the years there became a hugh population in smelt and decrease population in walleye. DEC was pissed.  ME TOO.
But, that is why they stopped stocking walleye several years ago and started stocking more rainbows, and LL salmon, and still browns. That is to try and controll the smelt population.
But, there are still a few hardy walleyes left. 

[gone]

I LIKE EATING SMELT IM GOING NEXT WEEKEND   

[Ray4852]

Smelt eat the lake trout fry and eggs. Ems is a vitamin deficiency that slows the growth of the trout. It doesn’t make the trout sterile. Lake trout in all the great lakes have ems and they’re reproducing. Get rid of the sawbellies and the ems problem will go away. A lake full of ciscoes will have healthy trout. Go do some reading on ciscoes and let me know what you come up with. Any fish that eats sawbellies will have a very fishy taste. With the die off of smelt on Seneca Lake we have about 70 percent wild lakers in this lake. These fish have ems and how come they are reproducing. We have a lot to learn about ems. We still can’t cure the common and your worrying about ems.

[Retired ECO]

 This could rage on for years !!!! Most of you are targeting one species of forage. No one mentioned perch, in the fall perch move deep and will be loaded with lake trout eggs. As far as Senecaand Keuka lakes, my first 10 + years as a ECO, both these lakes were void of smelt, again it is assumed that they were interduced via the bait bucket. Both Seneca and Keuka lakes have good natural production of lake trout now, which is a change from 40 years ago. The primary food sources in Seneca lake and Keuka lake are alewifes, along with ciscoes and in Seneca lake trout feed also on sculpin. If it were just smelt, alewifes and perch there still would be good natural reproduction. What all of you are forgetting is that when natural reproduction was non-existent the above mentioned lakes were loaded with DDT. These lakes are surrounded by vineyards and DDT was the pesticide of choice. When DDT was banned many of these farms buried much left over DDT in there farm dumps, usually in a gully. I assisted on this study for years even after I retired. The reason that myself and several other retired ECO's did so was because we had knowledge of some of these dumps. Now that I have bored you with all this, the great news is that natural reproduction is BACK !!!!!!!