Lake Carmi pollution

[dbldnii]

is it safe to eat the fish out of lake carmi?  I am just now reading articles on algae blooms there that caused the lake to be shut down last year.  been keeping the perch I catch there and was wondering if they are safe to eat in winter.

[ice fiend]

Eat at your own risk I don’t know if I’d eat anything from there after the die off this past fall

[jonny jigger]

I hunted ducks in there this fall after seeing that nasty water I wouldn’t eat any fish out of there.the ducks wouldn’t eat them either lol

[lowaccord66]

From google...

"Is it safe to eat fish from lakes that have toxic algae?

The toxins have been found in the liver, intestines and pancreas of fish. Most information to date indicates that toxins do not accumulate significantly in fish tissue, which is the meat that most people eat. It is likely that the portions of the fish that are normally consumed would not contain these toxins. However, it is ultimately up to the public to decide whether they want to take the risk, even if it is slight. Anglers may want to practice catch and release at lakes containing toxic algae."

With that in mind, if you eat a pop tart you put more chemicals in your body than a filet. 

[thefishingweatherman]

I heard on VPR a couple months back that there was someone at UVM doing a study on this issue on fish taken from St. Albs Bay, which also gets big blooms of the algae. Might be worth contacting this person. Can't recall their name unfortunately, but they were wanting to talk to fishermen.

[benblock]

I'd contact Natalie Flores at UVM (Rubenstein Ecosystem Science Lab). She is the PhD student working on this topic and could provide some insight.

[jbritch]

I was in graduate (statistics) school at UVM right after the first big die off and was given a set of data regarding the state's efforts to measure the damage.  My data only pertained to walleyes in Lake Carmi (I lived on the shores for many years).

My multivariate analysis showed conclusively that there were three separate strata of fish; for simplicity let's call them small, medium and big. 

The small ones died in large numbers because what manure and weed killer they ate killed them.

The big ones died because they ate up the little ones as soon as they could.

But the medium ones, which predominately fell into the keeper "slot", survived because they didn't eat the dead little ones, presumably, and didn't accumulate (relatively) enough toxins.

The local Girl Scouts picked up the dead fish from the north beach by the bowling alley (a small dumpster full) and the next day all 7 were in the St. Albans hospital with infections the doctors did not recognize.  My daughter stayed in the hospital for nearly a week with an incredible fever and we were terrified the entire time.  We're sure she has some permanent liver damage.

It was my home but I don't fish there anymore.  You wouldn't either if you saw all those little girls' faces in the hospital.

[Crayfish2]

Wow, that's terrible, jbritch.  Hope your daughter didn't suffer any long-term affects from handling those fish.  We love fishing Carmi in May and June, but may have to find other spots to fish now. 

[dbldnii]

thanks for the info- I had no idea that there was pollution until after my family and I ate perch from there on two separate occasions.  no illness as of yet but it might not be worth the risk.  Some of the fish had white grubs in their flesh but other than that seemed very healthy.  probably not worth the risk but the perch are being sold to local markets.  I guess its ok as long as there are no reported illnesses and I agree with the guy who said pop tarts contain way more chemicals.

[aquarium234]

was there a accident that led to more weed killer and manure into the lake last year? I don't remember Carmi having these problems in the past?

[thefishingweatherman]

Yikes, that is a crazy story jbritch. Sorry to hear about your daughter, and the other 6 girls - that's horrible. Guess I will be crossing Carmi off my list for places to eat fish from. That, and any other small lakes with similar blooms. It's a shame to think that is happening all for the sake of making a little more milk, delivered to an oversupplied market. I can sympathize with dairy farmers struggling to make end's meet, but there's got to be a way that our lakes and our farms can co-exist... Hopefully these run-off rules that were recently passed will help, but I am skeptical they will make much difference, at least on Champ. I am more hopefully Carmi will eventually recover.

[jbritch]

Aquarium: it was no accident.  The one farm in particular that I had the most information on was Andrew Rainville's, the farm at the sharp corner of Star Route near the intersection with the Rice Hill Road.  His farm is no longer in operation and so I don't think Andy was involved but his cousin next door does the crops there, I think.  Being on a steep slope to the lake with only a few hundred yards of swamp between his tillage and the lake shore, the State of Vermont mandates that he only spread liquid manure after the ground thaws.  The cows won't eat it if you spread it on the hay too late before mowing so that only gives all the farmers a narrow window or two during the season in which to spread the manure.  The weather is not allowed to be a factor but it should have been.  The liquid manure was spread right after mowing and just before a protracted rain event and it all washed to the lake.

To make matters worse, after the hay was taken, they sprayed grass killer for no-till corn planting and it also ran to the lake.  I witnessed parts of this story in person.  This was not last year so I can't speak confidently about that.

You know with perch being such a fast growing fish that maybe they don't accumulate the amount of toxins that walleyes do.  That seems to be the case with the mercury doesn't it?  Even though the beach at the north end was covered (literally) from end to end with several layers of dead fish, I don't remember there being lots of perch there, just mostly suckers and big walleyes and pike.

I think we can do better to protect our water and sometimes feel the state of Vermont is part of the problem.  I still can't get Shawn Goode to release the perch harvest data for the last 3 years!

[Honest_John]

Try Jud Kratzer, Shawn Good is down in Rutland. Jud works up north. He was very helpful with explaining the new Clyde river regs to me when I reached out to Shawn. If anyone is curious about those, shoot me a note.

[email protected]

[Honest_John]

You know with perch being such a fast growing fish that maybe they don't accumulate the amount of toxins that walleyes do.  That seems to be the case with the mercury doesn't it?  Even though the beach at the north end was covered (literally) from end to end with several layers of dead fish, I don't remember there being lots of perch there, just mostly suckers and big walleyes and pike.

From what I understand Mercury has to be ingested by one fish, and then that fish has to be eaten by a predator for the mercury to then enter the meat of said predator. This is why there are no warnings about eating many meals of panfish every month, but there are warnings about eating say lake trout more than just one meal per month.

[thefishingweatherman]

From what I understand Mercury has to be ingested by one fish, and then that fish has to be eaten by a predator for the mercury to then enter the meat of said predator. This is why there are no warnings about eating many meals of panfish every month, but there are warnings about eating say lake trout more than just one meal per month.

Mercury bio-accumulates up the food chain like you said, with predator fish getting more of it. I would also add that the age of the fish comes into play. The older it is, the more mercury it has. Let it be known to anyone eating big old pike, walleye, bass, or really big lakers frequently. I did read a while ago that mercury levels in fish have been dropping in the northeast substantially since some clean air laws were put in place, forcing coal power plants to filter mercury. Let's see if that trend continues with Pruitt as the head of the EPA... Not holding my breath.

[Registered Kayak]

was there a accident that led to more weed killer and manure into the lake last year? I don't remember Carmi having these problems in the past?

Don't forget we had that 2 week period of nearly no wind at all in the summer. It made the water temp spike in Carmi to 81 in some spots, made the algae bloom grow exponentially. I think thats what separated this algae bloom from the ones prior. The perfect algae bloom.

[aquarium234]

The Mercury gets into the Plankton which is still eaten by the perch but since there's lower on the food chain I just don't accumulate as much as a larger fish which is why you don't see as many warnings about them cuz they're not old enough to have built up high levels

[ice fiend]

You couldn’t pay me enough to eat fish out of thAt lake

[vtcountrychamp]

was there a accident that led to more weed killer and manure into the lake last year? I don't remember Carmi having these problems in the past?

High levels algae blooms last years was due to large amount of rain, causing run-off into the lake, and the above normal temperatures following it. Algae strives off the sun. Because of recent climate changes, farmers are now using more than normal pesticides on the crops which also contribute to it. 

[aquarium234]

In ny if a farmer causes fish to die they are fined which the amount is  partly on fish count that died

[ice fiend]

You’ll never see that happen in Vermont farmers have wayy too much power.

[fishy1]

on lake champlain united there was a post where there was cows in the water in champlain and also dumpings near a stream in champlain and i think they were fined in vt.

[aquarium234]

So there worried about bait possibly making fish sick in Vermont even though birds fly lake to lake able to carry the diseases anyway......but dumping in raw manure waste and pesticides is ok....good thing they clamped down on bait, otherwise that might have killed a few fish... Seriously though, thanks for the update, I had not realized what was going on up at Carmi, sad to hear, and scary about the girl scouts getting sick, hope all are recovered and well now.

[lingcod]

Verysorry to hear about your daughter and the other girls, jbritch.  Vermont, of all states, needs to fix this problem (as much as possible). I am almost always pro-farming, but a compromise needs to be reached...

[lowaccord66]

CT's largest pike lake has seen the same issue with blooms.  Not a stich of farming nearby.  The desire for green grass shot those lakeside homeowners in the foot.