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Author Topic: Quit Waters Iniiative  (Read 19088 times)

Offline lundin-loading

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #120 on: Jan 12, 2017, 11:54 AM »
JHC, FWP is intent on making this look as bad as possible. That was a mistake that would be fixed if it was implemented.

I'd say this whole proposal was a mistake that could easily be fixed by dropping it in the trash where it belongs. 

On a side note, and just to be a D!ck I propose the Quiet Frontage Road Initiative, no more shuttle traffic on rural roads!

Offline Born Late

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Re: Quiet Waters Initiative
« Reply #121 on: Jan 12, 2017, 12:22 PM »
I've been a BHA member for several years and I disagree with the initiative as is as well as the approach BHA took.  Hopefully there have been some lessons learned regarding when you should collaborate with your own membership and other interested folks in relation to when you submit a proposal to FWP. 

Regarding the comments of FlynIcefish (is it Ms. Fielder?), your cred sinks right to the bottom of the manure pit any time you attempt to play the Green Decoy card. 
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline d_smith84

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #122 on: Jan 12, 2017, 12:23 PM »

BHA--If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it just may be a duck.

BHA primary donors have extensive ties to environmental activist organizations.

In 2011 and 2012, 28 percent and 33 percent of the BHA’s total revenue came from the radical environmentalist-funded Western Conservation Foundation. However, BHA elected to omit Schedule B—the reporting of major donations—from its own tax returns for these years, in apparent violation of IRS rules.
Backcountry Hunters & Anglers purports to be a voice for sportsmen, but its funding indicates it is simply a mouthpiece for left-wing environmentalists. All told, 60 percent of BHA’s revenue in 2012 came from three Big Green sources: Western Conservation Foundation, Wilburforce Foundation, and Hewlett Foundation—a fact BHA apparently doesn’t want the public to know.

Western Conservation Foundation--$278,423
WCF has given handsomely over the years to notorious environmentalists and animal rights activists, including the Natural Resources Defense Council, the Audubon Society, Earthjustice (the self-proclaimed “law firm of the environment”), and Climate Solutions, a major proponent of “global warming.” It has also contributed large sums to the Tides Center, funder of all things leftist. It’s hard to imagine Western Conservation Foundation would donate over a quarter of a million dollars to Backcountry Hunters and Anglers if it wasn’t an organization that shared those same ideological beliefs.

Wilburforce Foundation--$110,000
Wilburforce Foundation gives heavily to other notorious environmentalists, including the Environmental Law Institute, the Sierra Foundation, and the Union of Concerned Scientists. Wilburforce’s executive director, Tim Greyhavens, previously worked for the Humane Society of the United States, a vegan activist organization with a PETA-like agenda.

Hewlett Foundation--$100,000
Pew Charitable Trusts--$69,000
New Venture Fund ($30,000 total)
Conservation Lands Foundation ($26,000 total)
Lazar Foundation ($25,000 total)
The Brainerd Foundation ($8,000 total). 

Sources:
http://www.brainerd.org/grantee-profile.php
https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/backcountry-hunters-and-anglers/
http://www.ammoland.com/2014/08/irs-complaint-targets-backcountry-hunters-anglers/#axzz4VZQlSfhK



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Offline njoy

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #123 on: Jan 12, 2017, 01:23 PM »
[
JHC, FWP is intent on making this look as bad as possible. That was a mistake that would be fixed if it was implemented.
Who would change that?? and how would it read after the change?? I did not think FWP tried to make it look bad, they just read the rivers and what was proposed for that river. Who took the time to come up with all of this, was it members of BCHA or the directors, or did they have outside influence? Lunden has the best idea, just trash it and lets all go back to fishing and enjoying the day and not worry how the other guy does it.

Offline FlynIcefish

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #124 on: Jan 12, 2017, 02:21 PM »
It is sad to see somebody trying to take the outdoors away from me and my family

Offline Ize

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #125 on: Jan 12, 2017, 03:47 PM »
After reading all this, it appears the "do it our way or else" groups keep getting larger and wealthier, the only two groups I know with any size that are really about protecting freedom rather than taking it are the NRA and the Wild Turkey Federation guys.  If you really look at it the bowhunting groups even caused the any weapon seasons to shorten.  Be careful who you send your money to.  We have all these other groups hosing us rednecks (DU, RMEF, TRCP, BHA, not to mention the undisguised extremest ones like TNC, WWF, PETA, NRDC, SC >:(  I would like to start a group called RALF "Rednecks Against Liberal Freedomtakers".  Our mission would be of course "conservation" conserving our right to tick them off doing it our way instead of theirs!  ;D

Half of you probably already waste your money on one of those groups who will eventually block you from a freedom you enjoy......so watch out!

Let me know if anyone has any interest in RALF.  I am sure I will have a few southern members.
If ya dont find em at least you can eat ur minnows!

Offline Ize

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #126 on: Jan 12, 2017, 04:25 PM »
BHA--If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it just may be a duck.

BHA primary donors have extensive ties to environmental activist organizations.

In 2011 and 2012, 28 percent and 33 percent of the BHA’s total revenue came from the radical environmentalist-funded Western Conservation Foundation. However, BHA elected to omit Schedule B—the reporting of major donations—from its own tax returns for these years, in apparent violation of IRS rules.
Backcountry Hunters & Anglers purports to be a voice for sportsmen, but its funding indicates it is simply a mouthpiece for left-wing environmentalists. All told, 60 percent of BHA’s revenue in 2012 came from three Big Green sources: Western Conservation Foundation, Wilburforce Foundation, and Hewlett Foundation—a fact BHA apparently doesn’t want the public to know.

Western Conservation Foundation--$278,423
WCF has given handsomely over the years to notorious environmentalists and animal rights activists, including the Natural Resources Defense Council, the Audubon Society, Earthjustice (the self-proclaimed “law firm of the environment”), and Climate Solutions, a major proponent of “global warming.” It has also contributed large sums to the Tides Center, funder of all things leftist. It’s hard to imagine Western Conservation Foundation would donate over a quarter of a million dollars to Backcountry Hunters and Anglers if it wasn’t an organization that shared those same ideological beliefs.

Wilburforce Foundation--$110,000
Wilburforce Foundation gives heavily to other notorious environmentalists, including the Environmental Law Institute, the Sierra Foundation, and the Union of Concerned Scientists. Wilburforce’s executive director, Tim Greyhavens, previously worked for the Humane Society of the United States, a vegan activist organization with a PETA-like agenda.

Hewlett Foundation--$100,000
Pew Charitable Trusts--$69,000
New Venture Fund ($30,000 total)
Conservation Lands Foundation ($26,000 total)
Lazar Foundation ($25,000 total)
The Brainerd Foundation ($8,000 total). 

Sources:
http://www.brainerd.org/grantee-profile.php
https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/backcountry-hunters-and-anglers/
http://www.ammoland.com/2014/08/irs-complaint-targets-backcountry-hunters-anglers/#axzz4VZQlSfhK



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Thanks for exposing this!  Not a surprise to us but may be to some.  Maybe even someone that wasted their money on BHA.
If ya dont find em at least you can eat ur minnows!

Offline vicster

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #127 on: Jan 12, 2017, 07:38 PM »
I also don't agree with everything the BHA does...  but they also opposed the anti-trapping bill, opposed the land transfer giving the durfee hills to the Wilks brothers, and opposes the mine on the Smith river, and promoted protecting the Front from oil and gas development.  These all protect our way of life and the quality of the habitat for the animals we pursue.  On the whole I think BHA is doing good things, but this initiative is not one of them.  I think the public response is proof of that, but writing a organization off because of one issue would be a mistake.  Do your own research, be involved, and make your own decisions based on that. 

Offline lundin-loading

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #128 on: Jan 12, 2017, 11:28 PM »

Well, therein lies the problem. They didn't read what was proposed. They lumped all the current regulations in with the proposed regulations so it looked like BHA was proposing massive changes when in fact most (not all) were just small additions. Myself and several other people wrote FWP leadership and I know BHA leadership talked to them about it, but the (aforementioned angry lady) paralegal running the meetings said it was too late to make changes. So basically take all the crap that was said at the meeting, divide it by 5 or so and that is the proposal. People still have problem with the proposal and that is fine, but many are flipping out about stuff that isn't even in the proposal.

I thought the packet was very clear, the current regulations were printed plain, the proposed changes were underlined or specifically titled as "New Rule". I am only "flipping out" about stuff that is proposed to be changed, IE eliminating motor boats and HP restrictions below Holter, and HP restrictions on the Marias and the Yellowstone, among other things. I have no issue with the current regulations.
To justify these changes under the guise of safety based on the very few incidents that do occur is like banning cars because some people get drunk and cause accidents.
There is already a boaters regulation book that outlines the laws of watercraft usage in MT, irresponsible/wreckless operation is illegal. What more do you want?

Offline FlynIcefish

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #129 on: Jan 13, 2017, 01:01 AM »
My "play(ing) of the green decoy card". Also, I do not doubt that there are members of BHA who are really are great people that love the outdoors and intend on protecting our rights. Sadly they are giving money to the people trying to take away their rights. The BHA leaders, chairmen, execs.. are what is concerning. Their actions do not align with their claimed intentions. I almost supported this group fully, but their true intentions emerged with the "quiet waters act", which has led to much more digging into this group. This proposal has left a sour taste in mouth of most of Montana based on the hearings.

Offline Quantoson

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #130 on: Jan 13, 2017, 03:50 AM »
If this Initiative does pass, I know where I'll be fishing with my 9HP motor boat everyday.  Up them spots and I bet there will be several others daily in these areas with our 2 cycle motor boats. ;D  I might use my planner boards.

This is just like the Lake Trout netting in the Flathead.  It happened even with a consensus against it.  No matter what the public wanted a small group got their way.  Used to be we could drive close to hunting spots, make camp and walk in from there for the hunt.  Now the gates are closed and foot or horse back only.  The gates are open all summer long and through most if not all of bow season.

I should buy me a couple of oxen and break them in for hunting season.  I'll leave a couple down by the gates so those who don't own horses or oxen, can use them as needed or even run a rickshaw service.  Bottom pic related..




wish you many hook-ups

Offline Born Late

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #131 on: Jan 13, 2017, 09:33 AM »
My "play(ing) of the green decoy card".

I would love to sit down and have a discussion with the Green Decoys organization. I can't. They don't exist.  GD is a subset of the Environmental Policy Alliance, which is a subset of The Center for Organizational Research and Education, none of which are actual organizations and all of which share an address with and are the inventions of the for-profit PR firm Berman and Associates. Their publicizing of already publicly available lists of BHA donors is particularly disingenuous considering they don't disclose the names of the corporations and organizations funding their smear business. So, to the copy-and-paste cowboys bent on drive-by mass distribution of misinformation, knock yourselves out but be aware that your "facts" (read "opinions) are those of a for-profit D.C.-based lobbying firm.

As I said earlier, I don't agree with BHA's approach on the QWI and I don't believe there was adequate collaboration prior to submittal of the proposal to FWP. I can understand the desire to stay ahead of technology that can lead to user conflicts but in my opinion the watercraft discussion is very different from the drone discussion. I found the proposal itself problematic in that it was described as a "modest proposal" but was presented in a 26-page document. The proposed changes were buried (not hidden, just buried) within existing restrictions leading to confusion for some of those who actually read the entire document. Also problematic for me was the use of the phrase "reports of conflict" without actually including supporting evidence.
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline lundin-loading

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #132 on: Jan 13, 2017, 10:06 AM »
Also problematic for me was the use of the phrase "reports of conflict" without actually including supporting evidence.


The warden officiating the meeting in Helena stated that there were 3 recorded safety incidents involving motorized device and a non motorized floatation device  from 1999 to present.

Offline Rat Fink

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #133 on: Jan 13, 2017, 10:26 AM »
Born Late is right about the Green Decoy's garbage. It was a smear campaign fueled by the gas and oil industry to try and get a growing voice discredited and out of the public lands takeover plan that is still working it's way through the system as we speak.

Although not a member, I am generally supportive of BHA and what they stand for on public lands, access issues, and better habitat and game management. But I HATE the quiet waters initiative and will fight it til it is dead.

Offline SLIMMETT

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #134 on: Jan 13, 2017, 05:53 PM »
Following this thread has been interesting, good intelligent conversation for and against this initiative.  I prefer to fish and hunt in remote areas far from motorized use so I am not for or against.
Here is something to take into consideration concerning this issue.  The advancement in technology in regards to personal watercraft, atvs, utvs, etc. has come a long ways in the last twenty years.  "Sportsmen" are able to access "Recreation" and get into areas they couldn't before, mostly legally sometimes not.  There is a lack of law enforcement to make sure everyone follows the rules. 

Offline Born Late

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #135 on: Jan 13, 2017, 10:53 PM »
I'd recommend re-reading my posts. I can't tell you BHA's thought process behind the initiative since I wasn't part of the process. And why would I defend an initiative when I don't agree with it? 

I suspect you and I have pretty different interpretations of "green" but the idea of conservation-minded philanthropists providing financial support to a conservation organization doesn't strike me as odd. I also suspect you've made up your mind that BHA is a liberal extremist group. I disagree but I don't see the point of butting heads when neither of our positions is likely to change.

Regarding the tax filing impropriety accusation, please share with us 1) proof that the IRS actually received the complaint letter from CORE, 2) how the IRS acted upon the complaint if they received it, and 3) what if any penalty BHA received.
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline d_smith84

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #136 on: Jan 13, 2017, 11:53 PM »
I believe everyone wants to protect and preserve our mountains, streams, lakes, and rivers that we all love and is part of our heritage but I believe we can do this without shutting everything off except to a few. I've read your posts and understand you do not support this initiative as written but I also understand you support a group that seems to mislead people under the pretense that this will be good for everyone. I have spent countless hours trying to work with groups such as BHA and it seems to always end the same way-they get what they want and every one else gets screwed. Again I ask, what about the handicapped, the people with medical conditions that don't allow them to do physical work, or the grandparent who wants to take their grandchildren out so they can enjoy these things?
I don't know if BHA is a "liberal extremist group" or not and I truly believe that there are a large number of folks who are members that belong because of what BHA represents but I also know people don't always know what is going only within such groups.
As to your request regarding the tax forms and the complaint, I asked first, let's have some of these folks who are supporting this initiative provide some data to support, or refute, some of the issues raised. As for BHA, they did this once before on the Clearwater, using the same arguements except they were successful the first time. All I can hope is they are not this time.

Offline vicster

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #137 on: Jan 14, 2017, 01:43 PM »
I know this is a issue that people feel very strongly about, but if you have a personal issue with someone please PM them and keep the thread on subject.  There has been some good discussion on here, some of it may even be productive;)

Offline Quantoson

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #138 on: Jan 14, 2017, 07:27 PM »
My opinion is just that.  The Great State of Montana should mail out ballets to all fishing licensed Montana holders and have a ballet vote. If the State chooses not to mail votes, and let one group decide what happens, then we should all boycott paying for license renewal March1 and keep on fishing.  Since the State will not follow the majority, then let the State suffer the loses of funds and those that have the convenience of State sponsorship/endorsement pay the till.

Those that will boycott fishing license renewal if this Initiative passes, say "I"

"I"!  I'm First!  If the FWP needs my info, please PM me and I will be happy to forward my ALS info to the requesting party.
wish you many hook-ups

Offline njoy

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #139 on: Jan 14, 2017, 10:06 PM »
I did not have trouble understanding the regulations that are now in place and what is being proposed. I'm upset with the proposal. As to the spawning habitat notion, I see no mention of walk and wade. Also seems strange there are only western waters involved. Lots of good "grownup" opinions on here. 

Offline lundin-loading

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #140 on: Jan 14, 2017, 10:47 PM »
I did not find the amended laws clear, but if others did that's fine. I'm not sure how you could know if you didn't read the actual petition. The actual BHA petition is the most readable document on what BHA wants.

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/publicNotices/rules/pn_0218.html
Halfway down this page are 4 links to PDF files. The top link is the petition as proposed from BHA. The second link is the rule proposal per fwp. It is the description of current regulations and proposed changes. Clearly underlined are the proposed changes, as well as the proposed new rules. You'll see that contrary to your statement earlier on in this discussion, the majority of the document is newly proposed laws or changes/additions to current laws. The third link is a map of each river and tributary in question with a description of the proposed rule changes and additions in a legend format on each map.
At the bottom of the main fwp page with the links is a text box where you can fill out and submit a comment.

Offline adkRoy

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #141 on: Jan 15, 2017, 07:18 AM »
Hey folks, I know this is an important topic for you guys. I just ask that you keep the discussion to the topic. If you have a problem with a specific member, send them a PM, don' t air it out on the board. Thank you and I wish you all, and good luck this ice fishing season.
New York State Ranger School Alumni 1994[

Offline FlynIcefish

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #142 on: Jan 16, 2017, 01:20 AM »
"I"

Offline whiptail

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #143 on: Jan 16, 2017, 10:30 PM »
I
Whiptail
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Offline Strippnthedream

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #144 on: Jan 17, 2017, 07:27 AM »
"I"
Luv2strip

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Offline whiptail

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #145 on: Mar 06, 2017, 07:19 AM »
any more word out there on Quite Waters.
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Offline d_smith84

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #146 on: Apr 07, 2017, 07:47 PM »
MAY 4, 2017, 6:00 p.m.
QUIET WATER PROPOSAL. WE NEED SUPPORT TO FIGHT THIS PROPOSAL. The Quiet Waters meeting is May 4th in Helena at the Montana Wild. They are taking public comments at that time. Please make plans to attend.


UPDATE:  The public comment period and extension is over, we are processing the public comments we received. The final commission meeting for Quiet Waters will be on May 4th. The commission will make a final decision on the petition at that time. It is a public meeting as well so the public can attend.

Offline d_smith84

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #147 on: May 09, 2017, 10:54 AM »
The Montana Fish and Wildlife Commission will take action on the Quiet Waters administrative rule proposal on May 26 at 8:30 a.m.  The agenda has been attached.

 

The Commission will hold a work session on May 25 at 4 p.m. at FWP Headquarters in Helena for an overview of the Quiet Waters rule proposal.  The work session will be audio streamed live online at www.fwp.mt.gov.

 

On May 26 at 8:30 a.m., the Commission will reconvene at Montana WILD in Helena to take public comment and make a final decision.  The meeting will be streamed live via video conferencing at all FWP regional offices and the public may attend and provide comment at any regional office or Montana WILD.  To listen to the meeting, but not participate, a live audio stream of the meeting will also be available at www.fwp.mt.gov.

 

The commission initiated rulemaking last spring on a petition submitted by Backcountry Hunters and Anglers titled the Quiet Waters Initiative.  Public hearings on the proposed rules were held throughout Montana in January and extensive public comment was received.  The proposed rules included language restricting motorized boating on a variety of rivers and streams across the state.  The administrative rule proposal and other documents associated with the proposal, can be found on FWP’s website at http://fwp.mt.gov/news/publicNotices/rules/pn_0218.html.

Offline missoulafish

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Re: Quit Waters Iniiative
« Reply #149 on: May 26, 2017, 06:01 PM »

 



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