IceShanty.com's Ice Fishing Community
Montana => Ice Fishing Montana => Topic started by: tdbarstow on Dec 20, 2015, 09:09 PM
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Everyone is talking about the walleyes in Swan Lake. Does anyone know what kind of size and population there is?
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They netted two fish. No established population likely.
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Kinda what I thought thanks.
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As of December 10th, you are required by law to kill any walleye you catch out of Swan Lake or the Swan River. Secondly, the catch must be reported to Montana FWP, and the dead fish must be submitted to FWP within 10 days of its initial harvest. In the event you catch a walleye in the aforementioned locations and don't follow these steps, you can be fined up to $500 and have your hunting, fishing and trapping privileges revoked.
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I've read a lot of articles about the mandatory kill and none have mentioned losing privelages of any sort for not reporting a walleye out of Swan lake.
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http://helenair.com/news/state-and-regional/fwp-commission-approves-mandatory-walleye-kill/article_5cab6bc0-17f1-528d-a087-e3b3d35dd632.html
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Weird, that's the only article I've seen that days that. Wonder if it's true....
Thanks Chris.
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I've read a lot of articles about the mandatory kill and none have mentioned losing privelages of any sort for not reporting a walleye out of Swan lake.
Yep for sure says loss of privelages. Third paragraph down. Crazy.
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Speaking of mandatory, Captain Anderson should be required to repeat Public Relations training if he thinks that's the way to encourage public cooperation.
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OK, allow me a rant please... ;D
Remember about 3 years ago when they came out with the "Statewide fisheries management plan? Well they laid out ALL these options in the case of an "illegal introduction"...I remember at the time, after I got the final decision notice which included ALL 70 comments received about the plan...most of those comments (about 40 percent) were from GROUPS such as Forest Service, Glacier Park, TU, BLM, et al. I remember thinking that out of the quarter million or so licensed anglers, 70 comments was a pretty lame number.
But THIS is how these laws get passed, right under our noses. This was one of the options, in fact, except for an outright "eradication at all costs", it was the most extreme and I knew, when and if it got used, people would exclaim "its not fair, they can't do this".
Well they can, and they did. ...if even ONE PERCENT of the licensed anglers had spoken out, it would have been hard for them to say "The majority of the comments were for this rule of law"...(which they most certainly will when questioned) Think about that the next time you let a comment period come and go.
Rant mode OFF
Mike
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mike I remember 3 yrs back when you were askin everybody to stand up...I know flathead is your livliehood...but walleye in the swan...smallies in the lake,,,and now pike in lmr....its just sad....not that i'm a big MFAW life guy...whoever dumped those pike in lmr should pay a price..pike in lmr is just sickening..
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It sure seems odd to me that some guy caught the pike out of LMR? And not one but two! I know of probably 50 or more perch fisherman that fish this body of water all year around and they would know if they were ever bit off by a northern. You cant tell me that one guy can go out and fish it and catch more than one northern in one day, and no one else ever catches another! It is a crock and it is simply a way of funding more fish and wildlife jobs for netting! So Swan lake... do I need to go there. FWP has been netting and slaughtering the fish in this lake for many years. Now all of a sudden they catch once again not one but two mature walleye! So we wait for the ear bone DNA results, and yes each and everyone of us own the right to these results. But here we are just waiting, media and clubs are pointing fingers before anyone knows where they came from or where the picture of the walleyes in the bottom of the boat actually came from. In the mean time, why doesn't some one care about how many salmon or bull trout are caught in these nets daily!! The numbers are amazing. Also there is an exact money amount of what one planted bull trout or salmon is worth, why does no one care about the money being spent on the rehabilitation of bull trout and then the same people who planted them are catching them in nets? might be me, but this seems odd....
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good points....I was wonderin bout some of the same things....without getting in to some conspiracy theories...I agree...it is indeed rather odd....
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I am active in a few different outdoor and fishing clubs and I hate the word conspiracy! It just really seems odd. I have seen first hand the FWP try and pull a few fast ones on some of the local non profit clubs. One interesting fact is that the retired region 1 fish biologist is now the president of a local non profit organization called Flathead Wildlife! My best advice would be to join one of the local clubs that constantly battle with this sort of stuff. I have a really hard time with the FWP paying for all the studies and hours of netting fish then have the couth to ask a non profit fishing to donate rods because they just don't have the budget! Well my advise is hold a bake sale or something that's what we did you earn the money we have!
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this might be way of topic but it just kills me. So in the greater flathead (region 1) name two lakes you can go to and catch a nice size NATIVE species. ok name five lakes you can go and catch nice size NON Native species. Did you do it? Now do a little research and see how many tax dollars are going to FWP grants and studies on Native fish. It is truly a mess. If I want to catch a trout I have to buy a very expensive reservation license and drive over 200 miles round trip to maybe not be blown off the lake! It makes no sense. look at the money in license sales alone on McWinneger slough, smith lake, Lower Stillwater and lake mary ronan!!! What if they made it free to fish for non native fish? oh no don't go there!! A fish becomes a resident of that body of water after ten years of catch rates noted by FWP. I could go on forever about these little rants, truth is they will get us nowhere except back on one of my local lakes fishing for more non native fish that taste delicious and make my kids smile all day long! Now to me that makes sense....
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ATTENTION:
Blue Light special- Buy one roll and get the second roll of tin foil free…
:cookoo: :cookoo:
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ATTENTION:
Blue Light special- Buy one roll and get the second roll of tin foil free…
:cookoo: :cookoo:
And this is what a retired carp cop offers 2 the thread. Thanks.
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I think there are less illegal fish stockings than what the Fish, Wildlife and Parks want the general public to believe. Their own records indicate they stocked 500,000 walleye in Lake Helena in 1951 so anything from Hauser down stream was stocked by them and this would include up river to the old Canyon Ferry Dam. As construction on the new dam ended in 1954 that chunk of river in between had Walleye in it. On 06/27/1996 they stocked 10,800 1.6 inch Walleye from the Miles City Fish Hatchery in the Missouri River in Region 3 in Broadwater County. In their fish stocking records I have found that they have been stocking Walleye in the Missouri River in Region 4 since 1933
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walleye in the swan...smallies in the lake,,,and now pike in lmr....its just sad....not that i'm a big MFAW life guy...whoever dumped those pike in lmr should pay a price..pike in lmr is just sickening..
Agreed. The mandatory kill requirement could be a useful tool there and elsewhere...Canyon Ferry pike come to mind. My issue is with the warden's "DROP AND GIVE ME 20" bombast. That pretty well shifted the focus away from the reward being offered for information regarding the Swan scumbucketbiologist(s).
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“conspiracy theories...” = tin foil hat = good buy on foil… :unsure:
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The Swan river and Swan lake are amazingly scenic mediocre fisheries. I can't imagine walleye doing well there (cold deep lake, limited nutrient input), but maybe they'll establish another mediocre (walleye) fishery in the system.
So what's the worst thing that could possibly happen?
The Swan river system is nationally important to bull trout recovery. Yes there are already pike in the system, but walleye are one more nail in the bull trout coffin. So when USFWS gets hit with another lawsuit by environmental groups in 3-5 years to upgrade bull trout status from threatened to endangered, they'll have to account for the additional non-natives in the Swan lake and Clark fork drainages in addition to everything else.
That's really hard to do, because the enviros only have to show the possibility of an impact that wasn't considered last time, USFWS will have to try to show that there is no impact. It's not easy to prove that in court. The feds and the 5 states involved will do anything they can to prevent that change in status (think sage chickens), and there's no telling what kind of protective measures they might adopt in a court settlement to prevent the change in listing status.
But a short list might include elimination of the recreational bull trout fishery (That's a no brainer, it was fun while it lasted), year round fishing closures for nursery/headwater streams (Monture creek, n. fork Blackfoot, S. fork Flathead, Fish creek, etc. come to mind), elimination of bait fishing in any water body with bull trout, further restrictions on roads and logging in those drainages, etc., etc.
For what? The chance of a mediocre at best walleye fishery in a state full of outstanding walleye fisheries.
Really does not seem like it would be a good deal for most anglers in Montana. These are obviously worst case scenarios, but no one knows what will happen. Which is reason enough to avoid moving fish around the state.
It's a shame ice shanty doesn't have the steaming pile of **** emoticon available, because it would be really useful here. :(
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There was a FWP fisheries manager (now retired) who said the way to stop bucket biologists was to make it illegal for anyone to fish for illegally introduced species planted into a fishery by a bucket biologist. The rule on walleyes from Swan Lake appears to be FWP putting that idea into action. I have to give FWP credit for taking action instead of sitting there wringing their hands.
Something else to note is that they really don't plan on fining anyone or taking away their fishing privileges. How are they going to know someone caught a walleye in Swan Lake unless a warden checks their boat while on the water or coming off of the water? At that point, the warden cannot fine the fisherman because he has 10 days to turn the walleye over to FWP. Isn't everyone going to turn over the walleye rather that take the punishment?
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What about the walleye that are netted yearly in the flathead river sloughs, like fennon, church and half moon? Or maybe lake 5 for that matter ive even heard claims of them coming out of the Stillwater river as well as tally lake. I agree there is a time and a place for walleye. Not all lakes are ideal. Fact is, FWP claims noxon res. was all bucket biology. Well around 1981 the FWP stocked walleye fingerlings on accident when the ponds at the Miles City fish hatchery flooded due to a levy that broke. Just when they thought they were only planting bass, they actually dumped thousands of walleye into the system! Because of this, they now hand cull fish before planting!!
Moral of this rant, there are more little bachelor groups of walleye in local waters then most would ever admit. Also there are plenty of people who catch these fish and release them nice and quietly. Its hard for sportsman to trust the FWP and do what ever they ask (turn in walleye caught) I would bet money that if and I emphasize they word "if" someone caught a walleye out of swan lake they would either eat the fish or release it in hopes of one more fish that may spawn and hopefully someday put another bend in their rod!
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You all are saying what i say every day.
1) Lmr two Pike caught in the same day. Fwp net 5000+ perch Sunnys and bass and put in gravel pit. Now I talk to fishermen and women regularly that fish Lmr they have never heard of pike being caught sense.Now Fwp has never let the public know if they found Pike.
2) Now we have walleye in Swan lake according to Fwp. Wow two walleye where caught in the nets in Swan, now we only see one in the picture and no background in the picture. :o .
3) now they are playing the Government game P.R.S. Problem Reaction Solution 1. Problem walleye in swan lake 2. Reaction use the media to to get the public into an outrage either pro or con.3 Solution massive fines, loss of fishing & hunting rights or 3yrs. prision sentence for targeting walleye if caught and not turned in to them. ???
4)Now what they have done is unconstitutional The laws need to be passed by the legislature. This is a policy and not a law. >:(
Now remember 911 and Bush got the Patriot Act passed and when they said we needed to give up some of our freedoms for security.
This is to fishy to me and to many coincidences for my book. enough said. :o
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Where can I find info on FWP putting 5,000 fish into a pit? Only interested in reading up on it myself as well is all.
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You can go to the FWP office and get the full EIS for any lake they have netted. This proposal will tell you in it what the plan is for the fish that are netted. LMR is a certified disease free lake, meaning that the perch have been selected and tested for disease. For years the FWP has netted close to 10,000 yellow perch out of LMR, that's not counting bass, trout or sunfish. In this proposal it claims they will be disposed of properly. There is no criteria on what the "proper" means to a non native fish. The fish were disposed of in a local gravel pit in proctor mt.
there is a local club that offered to pay for the transplant of these yellow perch to waters such as lake Francis, Fresno res. and or tiber res. Instead they just killed them all. In the early 90's the FWP used to transplant a few fish over to some eastern waters, I believe it was bailey res. near Havre.
The answers are all there and they are all available.
My advice is join one of the local fishing organizations and you will be surprised what actually goes on.
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“4)Now what they have done is unconstitutional The laws need to be passed by the legislature. This is a policy and not a law. ”
I do believe that you are incorrect…
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/2/4/2-4-102.htm
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/87/1/87-1-201.htm
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/87/1/87-1-301.htm
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I just have to ask....... what the heck is a Carp Cop? Great name!
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[qoute/]
there is a local club that offered to pay for the transplant of these yellow perch to waters such as lake Francis, Fresno res. and or tiber res. Instead they just killed them all. In the early 90's the FWP used to transplant a few fish over to some eastern waters, I believe it was bailey res. near Havre.
[/quote]
You realize when they net them they die. That's kinda unavoidable with kill nets. It's not like they're dumping a bunch of live fish into a pit just out of spite. I imagine they also collect otoliths for aging and population structure, that also kills them pretty dead.
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“…what the heck is a Carp Cop?...”
One of the terms of endearment that I and all Wild Resource Law Enforcement Officers are referred to at some time or another in our careers…
Among other common names…
Moose Marshall, Prairie Pig, Forrest Fuzz…and many others that I cannot include in this post due to Site rules and policies and common decency… Ó¿Ò...è¿è...
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I have to just chime in here and say that people who honestly think that there is some conspiracy theory going on within FWP to 'trick the public into thinking introductions are happening' are probably not well-grounded in reality. Those types of conspiracy theories are not healthy to any debate and are completely off-base and disrespectful.
Most people who are overly critical of FWP biologists don't really understand the position well and don't realize that these folks are being pulled in 10 different directions by 10 different groups of people many of whom are diametrically opposed to one-another. There is simply no way they can please everyone, or really even hardly please anyone given the constraints under which they operate. They are mandated by a litany of laws and policies to do many of the things that they do, and often the local biologists don't personally agree with the required actions they must take, but like any job, sometime you have to do things you disagree with on a personal level. Overall they put in long hours, countless amounts of grief and almost zero appreciation while doing an excellent job of managing our fisheries.
I didn't see a long line of support voiced when FWP came out against CSKT gill netting Flathead Lake? Also don't hear much support when they do actively manage a non-native fishery for public recreational value. Maybe those who so readily point fingers at decisions they disagree with should also voice support and appreciation when FWP supports positions that they do agree with?
I like to fish for perch, walleye and crappie as much as the next guy (I never even fish for trout), but there are so few in-tact bull trout fisheries left in the state that managing some of them for these species is warrented, imo. "Bucket biology" happens a lot, whether it is a direct result of actively dumping fish, or an indirect route of previously dumped fish finding their way into a new system, it is increadibly common and almost every water in the state has been impacted by it. I still hear guys actively support bucket biology and I've personally heard multiple people say that "LMR would be a much better perch fishery if there were northerns in the lake". Fact is nobody knows the impact new introductions will have on a fishery until it happens and most often the intended result isn't achieved.
On a personal level, I do support managing noxon for a warm water sport fishery, but I also support managing the swan as an intact bull trout fishery. We all have different opinion on things and sometimes decisions go our way and other times they don't but that doesn't diminish the fact that overall FWP and it's biologists work hard every day for sportsmen and shouldn't be accused of actively undertaking treason against us.
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“…what the heck is a Carp Cop?...”
One of the terms of endearment that I and all Wild Resource Law Enforcement Officers are referred to at some time or another in our careers…
Among other common names…
Moose Marshall, Prairie Pig, Forrest Fuzz…and many others that I cannot include in this post due to Site rules and policies and common decency… Ó¿Ò...è¿è...
I haven't heard these before. Pretty funny and you picked the best one. Maybe meet you on the ice some day. Christmas blessings........
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Wingnutty: Very wise and concisely written. I concur.
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Thank you Carp Cop for that info.
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Why do I see a padlock in the future of this string??????? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well said, Wingnutty.
I still hear guys actively support bucket biology...
Yup, while simultaneously hearing that all sportsmen/women need to stick together no matter what. Sorry, bucket biologists, but I have far more trust in FWP than I do in you.
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After reading through this entire thread PerchAssualt (Mike), MT_btagger, and Wingnutty all provide logical sound input in their posts, and even Whiptail’s posts are based on something….not something I believe but to each their own!
Fishermanj,
While some of your points may warrant concern, much of what you say on here is completely unfounded and inaccurate.
So Swan lake... do I need to go there. FWP has been netting and slaughtering the fish in this lake for many years.
Yes, if by fish, you mean invasive species such as lake trout. Netting has been conducted by the USFWS not FWP for years in order to preserve one of the last bull trout strongholds.
The numbers are amazing. Also there is an exact money amount of what one planted bull trout or salmon is worth, why does no one care about the money being spent on the rehabilitation of bull trout and then the same people who planted them are catching them in nets?
Surely then, you have gone out on the boat and pulled the nets right? If you had, you would know that the by-catch is minimal and acceptable. Secondly, the nets are sinking gill nets placed on the BOTTOM typically in the 100-foot+ ranges to target lake trout that are SPAWNING. Therefore, Kokanee by-catch is minimal due to the fact that they are stratified in the water column feeding on daphnia. Oftentimes, a significant amount of the bull trout captured in the nets can be released due to the short time frame in which a full netting evolution takes place in order to minimize mortality rates.
In addition, bull trout don't need to be planted Swan because they are NATIVE, and the kokanee would be totally gone from Swan had the USFWS not been aggressively pursuing lake trout to significantly minimize the numbers. Cut open any lake trout that comes out of Swan and it will be filled with those high dollar planted kokanee you are referring to, maybe you should send the lake trout a bill for reimbursement.
this might be way of topic but it just kills me. So in the greater flathead (region 1) name two lakes you can go to and catch a nice size NATIVE species.
How about:
1. Swan Lake (My avatar is of a 12LB Bull Trout I caught and released ice fishing out there last year, not to mention that you can have double digit days catching bull trout all of which are over 20" and fight like hell).
2. Rogers Lake Arctic grayling are a unique fish because remnant populations were native to only two of the lower 48 states-Michigan and Montana. Grayling were apparently isolated in both of these areas by the last period of glaciers, which ended 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. Michigan's grayling were extinct by 1936, but Montana populations continue to persist in a fraction of their historic range.
If I want to catch a trout I have to buy a very expensive reservation license and drive over 200 miles round trip to maybe not be blown off the lake! It makes no sense.
If you're looking to catch trout there are more than ample opportunities in Region 1.
What if they made it free to fish for non-native fish?
It would work great for about a year and then there would be no money to maintain any of the state fishing access sites, boat ramps, campgrounds, etc.
What about the walleye that are netted yearly in the flathead river sloughs, like fennon, church and half moon? Or maybe lake 5 for that matter ive even heard claims of them coming out of the Stillwater river as well as tally lake.
Have you ever read anything about the 1989 Environmental Assessment that was completed by Montana FWP? They voted for a policy mandating NO stocking of walleye west of the divide citing biological and social concerns, right???? Therefore, there are supposed to be NO walleye west of the divide.
In 2004, FWP agreed to hear a proposal to stock sterile walleye in closed-basin lakes west of the continental divide. The proposal was strongly opposed by several conservation and sportsman’s groups including Trout Unlimited and the Montana Chapter of the American Fisheries Society, reinforcing the 1989 decision.
Noxon Rapids Reservoir is the only exception, and in my opinion it shouldn't be.
Moral of this rant, there are more little bachelor groups of walleye in local waters then most would ever admit. Also there are plenty of people who catch these fish and release them nice and quietly. Its hard for sportsman to trust the FWP and do what ever they ask (turn in walleye caught) I would bet money that if and I emphasize they word "if" someone caught a walleye out of swan lake they would either eat the fish or release it in hopes of one more fish that may spawn and hopefully someday put another bend in their rod!
Again, there are no walleye that have been planted west of the divide, so these fictional "bachelor groups" you are referring to could only have originated from illegal introductions.
Secondly, by releasing any walleye you catch in Swan you would be relegating yourself to stiff punishment, and contributing to the demise of native fish in hopes of a poor walleye fishery after they eat everything in the lake. Sure you will have your rod bending for the first 3 years when they explode and are eating well, and then you will witness a trophic cascade. The fisheries will crash because there isn't the minnow base or nutrients (also noted by MT_btagger) in Swan to support a thriving walleye fishery, and you will end up with a lake full of scrawny 13" walleye that are topped out....definitely worth it right?????
I can't possibly address all of the misinformation that you have presented in your posts, if you are going to be spreading the garbage you call information all over this forum then you may want to know what you are talking about or at least have some semblance of the issues at hand.
@Whiptail (Pete) Man, you need to move to Alaska if there is really this many government conspiracies going....you do make some damn good tackle though!
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I was talking to someone the other day who is very thrilled with the proliferation of crappie in our local waters. What this person doesn't understand is that in a relatively short time we'll all have the opportunity to go out and catch a bucket of 6" crappie! Yippie, stunted crappie! Add that to the countless local lakes that are full of stunted 5" perch :-\.
Surely most of us are smart enough to realize that the proliferation of crappie in our waters is a direct result of bucket biology >:( This kind of crap is getting old, but there is simply no way to stop it. At the very least true sportsmen of Montana should actively discourage this type of stupidity. Shamefully, there are still a lot of folks out there who not only support bucket biology, but openly support it and will tell you so (usually after looking over their shoulder to make sure nobody else is within earshot). As fishermen we can disagree on a lot of issues, but we should be united in our stance against bucket biology and our support for FWP doing everything they can to prevent it and hold those responsible accountable.
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I am definitely opposed to bucket biology, and in the case of Swan lake it is truly a tragedy. I'd rather see fwp put their efforts into finding whoever put lakers in there.
It isn't a good lake for Walleye to thrive, not very fertile and a fairly small forage base. It will be interesting to see if they even establish a population there.
The lake trout occupy a similar niche as bull trout and will out compete Bullys every time. Swan was one of the Bull trout strongholds, probably the only water in the state with a healthy population of Bulls. Healthy enough that you could not only target them, but even keep one a day if you chose to previous to the appearance of lake trout. FWP should offer a bounty on lakers if they really want to make a difference in that watershed. It really makes me wonder about why they make a bigger deal about two Walleye than a growing population of lakers, all the while planting and protecting non-native rainbows and brown trout...
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BK_fisherman what have I said that is inaccurate? maybe we have met for I sit in on most meetings and public hearings that envolve these subjects?
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Maybe when the MT F&G takes responsibility and stops blaming "bucket biologists" for the eyes in CF/Hauser and Holter people will give their efforts more a bit more credibility.I think blaming the fisherman of MT for the introduction of a "nonnative" species "BS" that was planted by the MT F&G qualifies as a conspiracy.
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After reading all the posts on Swan lake and noxon 2 things come to mind. #1 who determines what the by catch rate is and what is acceptable? killing one bull trout while trying to save them doesn't make sense, has anyone seen how many have been killed while netting Swan for the last 5 years? Not a conspiracy theory but coincidence that they were at the end of their netting survey and now they have a reason to leave the nets in and probably more money to continue. As for Noxon and fishermen standing up and saying something, 1700 surveys were turned into the FWP 1696 for managing as a warm water fishery and 4 against. It didn't change anything.
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Bucket biologists, arm chair coaches, what's the difference? Individuals that think they know more than those educated and trained. FWP, let the ignorant screw it up for all and save a ton of license dollars trying to fix things. In the end we'll have a bunch of screwed up fisheries, stunted walleye, few perch, and yet there will be know-it-all fishermen that say FWP are the ones at fault. There will always be half that want something different and are willing to screw it up for the other half. That is the way society is going...self serving. I love to catch and eat walleye but will kill every reproductive female walleye I am legally allowed to help keep the system in balance...Montana waters just can't feed all those mouths. If you think otherwise, try taking some fisheries courses and quit listening to your beer buddies.
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for me personally this has been an educating thread....while I stand by my disgust of certain species introduced to western waters by self motivated..selfish.... individuals that think they know more and better than a trained biologist ....I don't always agree with mfwp...but do have respect for them and the jobs they do....like wingnutty..I have also heard the occasional bb talk from the likes of average joes to business owners....so I do think that bb may be more common than some might think....what I don't understand...and without getting into "conspiracy theories" is MWWP's attitude about going after these infractors....you'd think that they could easily get a shout out on the nightly news..saying there is a 10 g reward for info leading to the dumpage of such and such...we have all seen the media campaign for TIP MONT....so why aren't they using the same type of media to catch the individuals that dumped fish into so called waters???? people are loose lipped..especially with a few g's on the line.....putting aside what I believe about certain fish in certain waters and how they got there aside.....I think it is very odd on the way MFWP is going after the so called infractors....maybe they think it would be so hard to prove....but you know damn well...if you were privy to any other violation...fish and game would be there in a heartbeat....I am so confused... :-\btw....I did enjoy that 15 pound pike I caught out of the flathead river this summer....and that 5 gallon bucket of 13" crappie out of Blanchard..as well as the occasional 13 inch hog perch out of...not tellin....but there are still streams and lakes where the cuts and bulls run.. please folk that think that f it...there are no more riparian fisheries so screw it...STOP....there are still native fisheries left....please respect that before they are all gone...
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Here is what I am going to tell you about illegal walleyes. They are there to stay and the only way to get rid of them is to kill the whole lake and start over. Don't think that's going to happen so now you have another species to fish for. Just saying! It happens all over the country and hasn't ruined a lake yet..... ;)
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well I guess I always loved walleye....guess our grankids will be catching the world record outta flathead lake in a decade or so from now....sigh.... :(...can you imagine the walleye going into the shallows of east bay and elmo..with water temps pushing 80 in the summer....its all over.... :'(
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Here is what I am going to tell you about illegal walleyes. They are there to stay and the only way to get rid of them is to kill the whole lake and start over. Don't think that's going to happen so now you have another species to fish for. Just saying! It happens all over the country and hasn't ruined a lake yet..... ;)
I'm not sure I understand you comment about not ruining a lake yet? Most certainly bucket biology has significantly harmed fisheries. I also agree that there is no way to get rid of them at this point. So either FWP pours $ into continual gill netting, or live with a severely compromised system. Problem is that giving in just entitles the bucket biologists more and spending $ reducing numbers comes out of already tight budgets. Super frustrating and I"m sure if one were to evaluate the fisheries budgets it would be pretty eye opening at how tight of financial margins they are required to operate within.
Problem with enforcement of bucket biology is that it is almost impossible to prevent unless you actually catch someone in the act. Even turning someone is isn't gonna do anything unless you have verifiable proof. Someone takes a cooler of walleye and dumps them in a lake and unless you have video or photo evidence, how are you ever going to prove that they did it? You can't, there is just no way that anyone can be held accountable, which is why nobody ever is. It is very likely that even FWP is probably aware of people who have or still are doing bucket biology, but you just can't stop them unless you watch them 24/7.
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agree wingnutty....I was thinking it must be so hard to prove...but still...I think the nearer the time of inception...the better chance they might have....do agree totally with ya ..just cause things are messed up..doesn't mean that people can do whatever they want....transporting fish from bodies of water is illegal and whether the chances of getting caught is slim....you know damn well the MFWP is looking for a scapegoat.. even if many have done it before ...as an example if you get caught.. you will almost certainly be looking at a multi thousand dollar fine and a decade of privliges lost..
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it wasn't bucket biologist that put Mysis shrimp in Flathead or stocked Rainbows, lake trout, brown trout, brook trout ,golden trout, lake whitefish, kokanee, large and small mouth bass, northern pike, black bullheads and walleyes throughout the state. Just because you can name genus and species for a million plants and animals doesn't mean you are going to make smart decisions on application, only that you can identify 9 out of 10 species.
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once again..good point albo...you don't need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows......you spieled off my frustrations and acceptances of MFWP in a nutshell....but I am just saying just cause the situation is such...don't let the average yahoo do whatever...
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So its ok when the Montana Fish and Game transplant the species and completely ruins the fishery but when somebody else does it it's unacceptable?
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So its ok when the Montana Fish and Game transplant the species and completely ruins the fishery but when somebody else does it it's unacceptable?
Yeah it sucks that mismanagement has messed up fisheries, but I also think that almost all of those mistakes were made in the distant past and that FWP has learned from their mistakes and you don't see a lot of introductions happen today. Things that are done nowadays undergo a lot more scrutiny. In fact, I'd say its almost gone too far the other way, where FWP is afraid to to introductions for fear of the unknown. Not to say mistakes won't happen in the future, because they most certainly will, what when humans are involved and all, but we also shouldn't let fear of mistakes prevent any action (the current state of...fisheries mgt, forestry mgt, ...pick your field and/or issue because this situation is very pervasive within society and government now).
it wasn't bucket biologist that put Mysis shrimp in Flathead or stocked Rainbows, lake trout, brown trout, brook trout ,golden trout, lake whitefish, kokanee, large and small mouth bass, northern pike, black bullheads and walleyes throughout the state. Just because you can name genus and species for a million plants and animals doesn't mean you are going to make smart decisions on application, only that you can identify 9 out of 10 species.
Yup, very true. Sometimes no matter how much something is studied and analyzed, the affects can't truly be known...sucks, but such is life. I will say I'd trust the judgement of a decent fisheries biologist over that of a fisherman ~95% of the time, but a degree and title doesn't make anyone right 100% of the time...in fact, I always say that given almost any situation or issue in life, hindsight will show that even a knowledagble person makes the correct decision only 70-80% of the time, as humans we just simply cannot foretell future implications with certainty...yet ;)
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What it boils down to is the current Montana Fish and Game agenda revolves around trout and they aren't going to endorse or condone any species that isn't on their agenda. They go on and on about walleye and pike in Canyon ferry Holter Hauser and lower Missouri and how destructive they are but it's still one of the best trout fisheries in the state.
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The catch rate for bull trout in nets in swan lake are 1 to 10. This came straight from Fraleys mouth in an interview on the radio about a year ago. It has also been stated by Fraleys that they net 4 or 5 walleye out of Fennon slough every year.
Why would the FWP ever release the information about these 2 walleye ever being netted? There is no reason to except for the fact that it is considered bucket biology and can be used to access funds need to continue to net the lake.
The walleye caught in Fennon are never talked about! I can go to the river near Fennon slough and catch bulls all winter and spring.
I have also caught many 6-12 lbs. bull trout in flathead lake up to 160' deep!
I have also sat on the ice on swan lake and have had 10 fish days fishing for Bulls.
There also is written proof about accidentally stocking walleye in Nixon.
According to bk_fisherman I am full of lies and misconceptions. Truth is I am active in our local fishing community, I am also a fisherman in the fact that I love to go and catch fish. As long as my wife or kids can catch a fish, I am happy. I don't have to only fish walleyes or only fish cutties I love fish that's all. I will gladly compare mounts and pictures of size and species. The fish are there so go catch them and have fun.
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Right on fishermanJ couldn't have said it better, follow the DOLLAR!
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Why would the FWP ever release the information about these 2 walleye ever being netted? There is no reason to except for the fact that it is considered bucket biology and can be used to access funds need to continue to net the lake.
No reason? You provided another reason in your question. It makes sense that FWP would want to hit hard when the walleye numbers are low and there's at least a chance of eliminating or limiting the spread of an illegal introduction.
I don't believe FWP is a perfect agency nor do I see anyone else here suggesting that they are. Some decisions we now consider poor only because we have the benefit of hindsight. And, I have little doubt that over the years stocked fish ended up in waters where stocking was not intended. However, I have to call BS on the suggestion that FWP is using bucket biology as an excuse to access funds. Bucket biology depletes funds and that's on the bucketheads, not FWP.
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40 to 50 years ago the fish and game drove around eastern mt. and dumped 50 gallon cans of pike, bass, perch, walleyes in any impoundment they came across. They also took fish from the hatcheries and placed them in lakes, streams and reservoirs with no separation of species. Noxon reservoir received truck loads of bass, from the Miles City hatchery the same year it flooded the cause ways. No culling was done in regards to species before they were dumped and Walleyes were right there with the Bass. If you ask the FWP if that happened they will say its possible, but will they tell you even if Noxon isn't an "Illegal transplant by bucket biologists" it is an unauthorized transplant, and they must be eliminated.
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Fishermanj, you spout false facts, if you are going to make claims on here make sure they are accurate. You are wrong, 4 or 5 walleye are not netted out of the sloughs every year. A female was caught multiple years back, and no walleye have been caught out of Lake Five for multiple years. And as for bull trout bycatch in swan, there is a difference between bycatch and bycatch mortality. I can't even possibly cover all of your inaccuracies claimed throughout this whole thread, I just hope noone on here is ignorant enough to believe you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but do not just make up facts to support your opinion.
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FishermanJ, can you provide documentation that 4-5 walleyes are netted out of the sloughs each year? Just curious?
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The Fennon slough walleye came straight from Jon Fraleys mouth.
The large hen caught years ago,was netted in church slough.
Lake five was hit hard by the old region one fish biologist. I agree they got them all out. I fish it often and have for many years.
so riddle me this please, they place nets deep like 60-100' deep right? This is done to try and catch only lake trout right? I understand that bull trout will and do live in these depths as they love to eat salmon, why on gods great earth would a walleye be that deep? The water is not that warm in swan lake, there are plenty of natural break lines that hold forage for a walleye! I do know the habits of a walleye for I live to fish for them. What I don't know is why a walleye in a lake like swan would be hanging out that deep, I also don't know if it would even survive that deep! Oh yeah and by catch or by catch mortality? Really! So a bull trout can be caught in water around 100' deep and survive? They are awesome fish, I love to catch them, but they are weak and they simply can not take the pressure change that a lake trout can, if you fish for them you will know this.
I agree some of my statements are hear say, but so is this argument over walleyes in swan! I could send out a hundred walleye pictures with no background, hell I take pride in no background pictures, it can give away a lot of information!
We are all entitled to our opinions, my opinion is, it is a lie, if the FWP wanted to get rid of walleye in swan lake they would shock them in the spring when the water temps hit 40 and the fish Are spawning. My other opinion is that this whole scheme is over funding for 10 or more years of gill netting the lake! For better or for worse, time will tell.
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so hard to figure out what is what................ju st exhausting at times,
I'll just go fish, and hunt for whatever I can find!
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Aren't they betting macs in the fall when they come up shallow to spawn?
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Him not sure if they net in the fall or not, I know they net all summer cause I see them. They also park their boats behind the old mercantile.
I also have just learned to adapt to what is available and make the best of it. It is truly a sad time. I can't believe someone wouldntakenthe time energy and money to transport fish illegally! Especially with the watercraft check points.
Did you know that there has never been a conviction of any sort with bucket biology!
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Walleye suspend above and below prey species just like other pred. fish. My son caught a nice pike from Swan while jigging for salmon last year. It was suspended out in the middle of the lake near the salmon. I have gill netted commercially in Alaska and gill nets are set just to catch deep fish but ensnare many others. Depending on what is used, the curtain will usually suspend from 50 to 100 feet and will snare anything that can't pass through the given mesh size. While fishing king salmon we often caught diving birds, steelhead, and trash fish along with the salmon. It's very easy to see how a couple walleye or any other species can end up in a gill operation. Do you guys actually believe that FWP would jeopardize their jobs, department funding, reputations, or risk prosecution by promoting false information?? Good grief gentlemen, get over the conspiracy complex and get on with enjoying what we have for sport fishing in this country. There will always be plenty of buttholes around trying to "Improve" things to meet their vision of the way it should be. Transporting live game fish is illegal and yes, I'm confident someone would risk it. I have made many trips over east to walleye fish and have never hit a boat inspection station when it was open while traveling that direction. My guess is it would be pretty easily accomplished after dark. It's best just to face the fact, cooperate with the Commission approved program, and move on.
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During August, juvenile lake trout are netted in deeper waters (>20 m), then in October adults are netted on shallower spawning grounds typically < 15 m in depth. The majority of adult bull trout are caught during spawner netting post spawn after the bull trout have returned to the lake. Approximately 40% of handled bull trout (this includes juveniles or subadults from depths greater than 20 m which make up the majority of the bycatch and bycatch mortality) were known mortality and an approximate 13% more were estimated mortalities based on the condition of fish upon release. This was from years 2007-2011. That is the kind of information that you should supply if you are going to make claims based on facts fishermanj.
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my opinion trout taste like crap, yes you can catch a cold water trout and eat a couple of them. but they don't compare to a good old fish fry of walleye, pike,and perch. there sure aren't to many fishing derbys that rely on 100% trout and the limits are so low who the hell wants to take the kids out were you can only catch 1 fish. we have plenty of cold water rivers that are perfect for cuts, bows and brookies. we also have a ton of so called warm water weedy lakes that they have planted tens of thousands of trout in, well they don't exactly thrive. why the heck keep beating a dead horse. there is plenty of room for walleye in the flathead. if you just go by what the native species should be in each body of water there would be no diversity. diversity is what every govt agency preaches to us, why don't they practice what they preach and let the folks on the west side have some walleye.
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If they practice their native species BS there wouldnt be 35 million trout planeted every year in the state in water they were never native in. Just a bunch of trout loving biologist that want to keep all the water the way they like to fish. I'm sure the wall I are there to stay enjoy them.
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The number of places that are suitable for Bull trout in the lower 48 will only continue to decline. Swan River & lake is one of the best that is left.. It is unfortunate to read so many posts by folks who support this kind of invasive species introduction. Government agency conspiracy theories, "US vs. THEM" arguments, and lies presented as facts are poor disguises for how one really feels, and acts.
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If they practice their native species BS there wouldnt be 35 million trout planeted every year in the state in water they were never native in. Just a bunch of trout loving biologist that want to keep all the water the way they like to fish. I'm sure the wall I are there to stay enjoy them.
You do make a good point, such as some species of trout they plant are not native. However I would much rather have a brook or rainbow in a body of water with native trout in it, rather than a pike, bass, walleye or any other predator fish. But before long we won't even be discussing this topic. Before you know it people will dump walleye all over the flathead just like all the pike here. Your correct, the walleye are here to stay. Cant poison them out, cant net them out.
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this page has had lots of info come up and everyone has put there two cents in pros and cons we all like to fish but for the most part catch so we fight a up hill battle. I would rather catch a westslope or a brown than a bull trout and return It for the next person, as for a walleye or pike the fish is most likely coming home for dinner!!
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Again, the issues with Swan Lake walleye, assuming they're there, and assuming they become established goes way beyond Swan Lake.
There are fairly large, well organized and funded groups of people in this country who would love to shut down every consumptive use of the outdoors, from mining to picking wildflowers, and put it all off limits. These people suffer from a delusion that we are somehow not part of the rest of the planet, and that keeping us out of the woods will somehow protect it. If we do go in the woods, we'll have to wear bunny slippers and kiddie gloves so we don't hurt anything.
This is despite plenty of evidence that people can ruin a perfectly good forest (or fishery) from thousands of miles away without ever stepping in it, as well as ignoring evidence that actively managing a forest in poor shape through timber harvest can restore it. But these people don't care, because they have their Beliefs, their Money, and their Lawyers.
Right now, every other year some of these people target trapping in Montana. For now they are careful to separate out hunting and fishing. But that's because it's a step wise process and they have patience and time. In the meantime, they actively and successfully use existing regulations like the ESA to achieve the same ends through species like lynx and bull trout. And I'm not saying these species don't need protection, but that people have figured out how to use these laws for their own agendas.
Every time some idiot dumps a bunch of fish in a lake illegally, poaches a lion, or lays donuts in a farmer's field, our voice as sportsmen, as conservationists, becomes a little dimmer and less believable. And their ability to influence the people who don't currently have an opinion becomes stronger. This sort of BS plays right into their hand.
Cecil the lion is a good example. Lion hunting and African sport hunting in general has generated millions of dollars of revenue which funded everything from drinking wells to lion research to replacing cattle killed by lions. One guy with a poached lion pretty much ruined the whole thing, and has changed it for ever.
Again, no one knows. But I'm certain that the 1% or less of so-called sportsmen committing these crimes are stealing from the rest of us. To be clear¸ these people are criminals. They're stealing funds that could be better used for other projects, they're stealing recreation and economic opportunities, and they're stealing our voice as sportsmen.
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Sounds like a bunch of hackling Gals on this thread
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key board cowboys!! went and fished swan this summer, wasnt good at all the water sking sure was, ahahahaha!
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Well put MT_bagger!! I completely agree.
Swan lake is an amazing fishery as well as the swan river.
I simply have have a hard time with the concept of ridding the walleye. I do not think it is possible. As we sit here and debate, some jerk some where is ready with his next cooler full of spawners. I love walleye, but I also love to fish. I fish for them all and I fish for them all over the United States and Canada.
The Canyon Ferry tournament is a prime example of how a fishery can generate an amazing amount of revenue for the local economy! There are also local bars and eateries that have capitalized on this. look at the McGregor lake ice tournament or the fisher river fire department tourney. I am willing to bet it makes those bars over half of there years income on those two weekends.
It seems to me as I travel around and fish tournaments all over the States and Canada, when I pull in to town with my diesel truck on empty, fuel my boat, my belly and beer appetite that this is what keeps the world going around! Not pointing fingers at clubs or usernames on iceshanty.com.
Bucket biology is a problem, but at the same time so are the so called college graduates that ask for millions of dollars to study a weed or why a fish isn't spawning or how many squares of toilet paper the average human uses per movement!!
I guess I am just rambling on, long nights at work. I hope they figure it out. I really don't see FWP winning, the walleye are here to stay whether it is swan or noxon or who knows what is next.
All I want to know is what the ear bone sample comes back as and who actually did the sample?
Thanks
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Who are they going to blame if they find out those fish came out of the Columbia basin?
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I have obviously been keeping out of this thread, but I have just this one comment...supposedly, two pike were caught in LMR...we never saw them and have not heard of another since...I and dozens of others put in hundreds if not thousands of angler days on LMR targeting Perch, Bass, Kokanee and Rainbows...I don't know of a single person that has hooked, or even been bit off by a pike...ever, in LMR...so maybe those two WERE it...I certainly HOPE so...
In Swan, two Walleye were "netted"...and none have been caught or found since...it's early, sure but hopefully, that's the only two EVER found there...
I really don't see that we have a "walleye" issue in Swan at this point, other than that they "somehow" got in there...and just happened to end up in lake trout spawning territory...and ended up in the nets...
We obviously DO have a problem with illegal introductions, environmental sabotage or bucket biology, whatever you want to call it...I'll wait for the next stage before I get too worked up either way.... this story ( and more just like it) isn't going to go away...the pity is, it COULD, if whoever is doing this would just STOP...
Just my 2 cents...
Have a Happy New Year everyone...
Mike
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Walleye were in CF since the late 50s,people didnt start catching them till the early 80s.
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http://m.dailyinterlake.com/members/swan-lake-netting-yields-no-new-walleye/article_49dec3f8-b514-11e6-a09c-db09e1f6e6ba.html?mode=jqm
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Did they ever release the origin of the Swan lake eyes?
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prolly not. I like a good conspiracy......so it was made up to get more funding to continue netting.
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Wouldnt be the first time
;)
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This thread is going Better than the one I started a couple years ago ,I asked about the walleye in Noxon , it got pretty bad , it's a touchy subject,
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Take away message from this thread for FWP: Stop studying and trying to stop illegal introductions. We get what we get and only have each other to blame. Meanwhile, budgets will be flush and fishing poles can be provided to all of the school kids without having to ask for donations.
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To my knowledge the otoliths of the two walleye that were captured in gill nets in Swan Lake don't match the chemical profile of walleye out of Lake Francis or Noxon Reservoir. However, the chemical profile analysis of the otoliths does provide conclusive evidence that the two walleye captured in Swan didn't originate there. Again, there are many bodies of water that don't have existing water chemistry profiles and the investigation is ongoing. The fish didn't "magically" appear there, but those who are firmly rooted in their conspiracy theory beliefs are entitled to do so.
Unfortunately, the illegal introduction of walleye in Swan Lake is only one instance of a larger problem facing anglers in Montana. The illegal introduction of pike and smallmouth bass in various waters has been an issue many years prior to the situation currently unfolding on Swan Lake. I don't want this to turn into a "Trout Vs. Walleye" debate as it would solve very little. Personally, I wouldn't ever consider introducing ANY species of fish in ANY lake based purely on my own desires. Quite frankly, it's a selfish way of going about things and I would like to believe that ALL anglers can agree on this one point.
As PerchAssualt noted, illegal introductions are under our control, and they need to stop.
12BHNTN, so let me get this straight.....we should do away with all fisheries biologists and everyone should just put what they want, where they want, (no penalties or fines/everything is a legal introduction)....and everything will be great?
For anyone who is interested in reading about the otolith analysis of the walleye captured in Swan here are a couple of good articles:
http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2016/swanlake.htm#.WEjLR7IrKM8 (http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2016/swanlake.htm#.WEjLR7IrKM8)
http://flatheadbeacon.com/2016/02/16/swan-lake-walleye-were-introduced/ (http://flatheadbeacon.com/2016/02/16/swan-lake-walleye-were-introduced/)
https://www.nwcouncil.org/news/blog/swan-lake-walleye/ (https://www.nwcouncil.org/news/blog/swan-lake-walleye/)
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Thanks for the links BK!!
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No problem Missoulafish! :icefish:
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BK - You read way too much into my sarcasm. That said, illegal introductions have been reported as FWP Region 1's number one fisheries expense, yet people are never happy with FWP does or doesn't do about it...which is very evident in this thread. At what point do they stop trying and let people just live with the consequences of their actions?
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The beauty of living in Montana as Sportsmen and Women is the opportunity to pursue a variety of fish and game both native and non-native. My wife and I enjoy taking horses into remote headwater streams in central Montana in the summer to fly fish for native Cutthroat. During the winter we ice fish for perch in local reservoirs. It is up to FWP to maintain a balance in keeping NATIVE fish where they have traditionally been and also to provide opportunity for non-native fish where appropriate. I would encourage all anglers to be thoughtful and try to understand diversity of ecosystems within Montana.
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A "Huge" problem has been the legal introduction of the invasive Rainbow Trout. Through cross-breeding they have been diluting out the pure strain cutthroats.
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A "Huge" problem has been the legal introduction of the invasive Rainbow Trout. Through cross-breeding they have been diluting out the pure strain cutthroats.
Indeed,lets get rid of all those invasive rainbows and browns and start all over...
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12BHNTN, apparently I missed the sarcasm in your post, and I definitely agree with you that no matter what FWP does there are going to be unhappy people that feel resources are being managed inadequately. It's extremely tough to do what the "majority" of the public want.
My main point is that FWP has made plenty of mistakes over the years with the Flathead Lake mysis catastrophe at the top of the list. However, science is constantly evolving and in my estimation many of the decisions made can chalked up as good initiative but bad judgment. I do believe they have the best intentions of the general public at heart, but there have been many unforeseen consequences and obstacles.