How do ya'll feel about wolves

[WesternSlopeFlyNIce]

So evidently, in my county (moffatt) there have been confirmed sightings of 6 grey wolves, and one black wolf by walden.

I already run into lots of wildlife during the warmer seasons(bears, crap loads of deer and the occasional lion ( i know where their dens are) .. i cary a 357. Mag when i'm fishing the deep woods on the river...

Does bear spray work on wolves? i imagine it does.. but... ive seen "the gray" and i'm not trying to run into them.


thoughts?

[meandcuznalfy]

You won't soon be seeing much other game around, and there'll be more wolves as the pack grows.

[Gunflint]

So evidently, in my county (moffatt) there have been confirmed sightings of 6 grey wolves, and one black wolf by walden.

I already run into lots of wildlife during the warmer seasons(bears, crap loads of deer and the occasional lion ( i know where their dens are) .. i cary a 357. Mag when i'm fishing the deep woods on the river...

Does bear spray work on wolves? i imagine it does.. but... ive seen "the gray" and i'm not trying to run into them.


thoughts?

We have lots of wolves in MN. They usually avoid humans and cars so not seen much. I hear their howling more than see them.

Unless they are being "tamed" by the presence of humans you should be very safe.  While a wolf in concept is scary because they are such an effective predator, they are safer than a bear with cubs and other animals. Oddly, we had a no-cub black bear attack and kill a 60 year old woman last summer in MN. Very odd. I think that there are more people injured or killed by moose than wolves.

[Gunflint]

That’s a misconception that you won’t see any game around anymore.  You may not see sick or weak game any longer, but the wolves won’t completely decimate the game populations.  The wolves have not wiped out the elk and bison of Yellowstone.  They’ve made the populations healthier, though.

I’m for it.  Reintroduce the sh*t out of them.

That depends, they have had a huge impact on deer and moose populations in northern Minnesota. There is even talk of opening a hunting season on wolves.

I would assume it is a density thing, but wolves certainly control the population of Isle Royal moose.

[SLAYERFISH]

Hopefully they'll eat some of the Tourons-

[meandcuznalfy]

They make a huge impact on game populations. I agree they don't decimate game population, but do drastically reduce the game in the area and not totally by depredation, but game moves to areas the wolves aren't in. I've seen areas where wolves have moved into go from game rich areas to desert's devoid of game.

[TimK]

The issue is far more complex than any one persons view point. 

The yellowstone example is not an apples to apples comparison with the "real world".  Yellowstone is GREAT place for wolves exist.  Its a park, a science experiment, its an idea(l).  It is also not at all a true representation of the diversity of public interest mountain west. 

The reality outside of Yellowstone is that wolves come into conflict with human interest (ranching, hunting, private land ownership, etc).  Whether you personally like hunting or not is irrelevant, many western communities rely on the revenue that comes during hunting season.  Wolves conflict with that.  Many towns are centered around the ranching community, wolves come into conflict with that.  Forced reintroduction of wolves via referrendum also infringes upon the rights of private land owners in western colorado.

The greater population of the front range has no respect or understanding of the culture and heritage of the rural portions of Colorado. cows are bad, ranching is archaic and the political rift needs no explanation.  The wolf issue is merely one more front in the battle of liberal vs. conservative, front range vs west slope. 

Theyre already established in the browns park/irish caynon area of NW CO outside craig, just north of the target reintroduction area.  So its only inevitable that they make there way into the proposed area organically.   How about we just continue to let that occur naturally and manage it in a way that benefits all involved interests, instead of shoving each others ideology down the other sides throat?   

One side wants no wolves anywhere ever, the other side wants wolves to saturate the area (where they dont live).  The best option lies somewhere inbetween.

[skifisher]

2 points IMO ...
First: If a pack of wolves have already been identified and are present in Colorado, why the need to reintroduce them?
Second: If folks are so concerned about wolves decimating wild game, just look at what development and growth has done to the elk population in Aspen and Vail. It is estimated their herds have been reduced by 50% since about the year 2000! Who are the responsible predator/s?

[TimK]

2 points IMO ...
First: If a pack of wolves have already been identified and are present in Colorado, why the need to reintroduce them?
Second: If folks are so concerned about wolves decimating wild game, just look at what development and growth has done to the elk population in Aspen and Vail. It is estimated their herds have been reduced by 50% since about the year 2000! Who are the responsible predator/s?

Your second point is an EXCELLENT argument.  Deer and elk populations within the state face a number of man made challenges/limiting factors including man made impdements to migration cooridors.  The vail area is a prime example.  I70 and the towns of vail, Edwards, Avon and Eagle divide the north facing summer range (south of I70) from the south facing winter range (north of I70).    This is why the yellowstone example holds no water.  Between the over population of bears and mountain loins as well as human destruction of migration cooridors, the elk in COs high peaks area do not need anymore limiting factors.  The extreme western portion of the state can sustain a small wolf population but the high peaks area (steamboat to leadville) cannot.

[Lets fish]

Plenty up here in Wyoming! Yes they are hard on elk they target feedgrounds and kill to kill. Shoot ,shovel,shutup!

[Adironzach]

2 points IMO ...
First: If a pack of wolves have already been identified and are present in Colorado, why the need to reintroduce them?
Second: If folks are so concerned about wolves decimating wild game, just look at what development and growth has done to the elk population in Aspen and Vail. It is estimated their herds have been reduced by 50% since about the year 2000! Who are the responsible predator/s?

There's actually a really good study done in 2012 out of the University of Alberta. They looked at the effect of human disturbances on elk populations and it is much much greater than most think. "The research data showed that starting with a rate of just one vehicle passing by an elk herd every two hours, the animals became disturbed and more vigilant. In this state the elk consume less food, which can affect their health and possibly their calving success." I am not from Colorado however Vail and Aspen are very popular places. As they grow in population, that will result in an equally negative effect the elk population in that area. Yes wolves will have some impact on the big game species in the habitats they coexist, however it is the human effect on wild game populations that is often much more distributive. People dont like to admit that people are bad for the game species we target. Much easier to blame the wolves.

[Bigassbassman]

Good info, guys — and great stuff, Tim!  Sounds like you’ve done your homework!

For me, I’m just arguing against the knee-jerk reaction where people instantly say, “well, kiss the game goodbye”.  There goes the Neighboorhood, and whatever.

It’s obviously a complex issue, and the ecosystems in question are obviously not identical to Yellowstone.  But game populations had for millions of years reached balances with wolves in multitudes if ecosystems.  Nothing to say it can’t happen again here in Colorado.  And yeah, a lottery for wolf tags would probably be required to keep them in check.

IMHO, I think the benefits of wolves for naturally selecting out the sick and dying would only serve to strengthen the game populations.  Natural selection in action.  Think about hunting — often the biggest, prize bulls are taken.  This would be a selective pressure from the bottom of the pyramid.  Weeding out the sick and the runts. Think of it like cleaning out a perch population of dinks!  That lake would come back stronger with more jumbos!

Is it perfect?  No. There are drawbacks, too.  We’d have to adapt to the changes, just like the game populations would need to adapt. But nature knows what it’s doing.

[stinkyfingers]

Great discussion of a complex and emotional issue. My old buddy who lives in West Yellowstone and has been guiding tourists around the park for 40 years is certainly of the shoot,

shovel, and shut up school of thinking. He's on the front lines every day and has witnessed the dramatic decimation on the Yellowstone herds. I don't know if we can extrapolate the

Yellowstone model and understand how the Colorado herds will be affected. There may be a parallel to the years of poorly understood forest management in Yellowstone that

resulted in the catastrophic fires of recent memory. Perhaps that ecosystem is just balancing itself. The jury's still out.

[TimK]

Theyve found that wolves do not always key in on sick or old members of the population.  In fact,  wolves in yellowstone are known for targeting mature ("trophy") bulls.  Two reasons, 1) bulls tend to become very solitary animals after the fall rut and into the winter, making them an easy target.  The wolves target these solo bulls because 2) the bulls are often wore down from the competition of the rut and cannot flee or put up much of a fight.  Here is an article in regards to the evolution of when elk shed their antlers based on wolf predation

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180905113232.htm

[Gunflint]

I know nothing about elk but live with moose and deer. There is a massive correlation between wolves and those populations.

One point to consider, at least as relating to this site, wolves in my experience do not ice fish or feed on ice fishermen.

[TimK]

I know nothing about elk but live with moose and deer. There is a massive correlation between wolves and those populations.

One point to consider, at least as relating to this site, wolves in my experience do not ice fish or feed on ice fishermen.

This is a recent subject of much news and press coverage lately in our state.  Im sure the minnesota boards have better content for you.

[mtnhillbilly]

The wolf reintroduction will Have an adverse effect on wild animal and livestock populations!  Bear and mt lions are already taking more than just the sick and weak!

Another key aspect is the threat they will impose once they migrate south! Arizona spent a lot of time reintroducing a smaller desert  wolf ( can’t remember exact name) and the biologists predict that these smaller wolves will be killed off !

Yellowstone has no comparison as it isn’t hunted! Drop wolves in Rocky Mountain national park where there’s too many elk and deer! Kidding that would be to close to home for front rangers! 
Seriously though the knee jerk reaction of those front ranger who will be voting on it won’t take the time to understand the real time effects! Funny because many are the same babies crying about Bear mt lion and coyotes in their backyards taking their pets!

[Bigassbassman]

Well, I don’t think I’ll stoop to name calling like you.  Also, this is an ice fishing forum, I don’t want to get too heavily into politics.  But the topic is about the outdoors, and it’s about Colorado, so it’s been a fun (civil) discussion until this point.

But I wonder how much someone named “mountain hillbilly” really know about the complex ecological aspects of this issue?

I guess I’m a “front range crybaby”, but I know a thing or two about ecology and population biology.  I’m not crying in my bran flakes about bears and mountain lions, but I do keep up on management issues.

When I received my Masters Degree in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at CU Boulder, I studied under Emeritus Professor Marc Bekoff, who knows a bit about wolves.  He’s on the Scientific Advisory Committee for the issue, and he’s a proponent of Ethical Rewilding here in Colorado.  This would require extensive study of game corridors, population dynamics, and animal-human interaction in order to justify reintroduction - without harm to game populations, and of course, the wolf pack(s) that would be introduced.  Prof. Bekoff argues that the wolves should never need to be killed if they are introduced (i.e. culling the pack).  Cause no harm.  So that can be difficult to achieve here in Colorado.  Use the google machine and see what Prof. Bekoff has to say.

At this point, we may not have all the necessary data to support reintroduction.  But who’s to say it shouldn’t happen in the near future if we have a solid plan in place.  I’m not saying I’m for it.  Just trying to combat stereotypes about those that may consider it (even here on the front range) and knee-jerk reactions.

Learn up on the subject and vote.

[Gunflint]

Well, I don’t think I’ll stoop to name calling like you.  Also, this is an ice fishing forum, I don’t want to get too heavily into politics.  But the topic is about the outdoors, and it’s about Colorado, so it’s been a fun (civil) discussion until this point.

But I wonder how much someone named “mountain hillbilly” really know about the complex ecological aspects of this issue?

I guess I’m a “front range crybaby”, but I know a thing or two about ecology and population biology.  I’m not crying in my bran flakes about bears and mountain lions, but I do keep up on management issues.

When I received my Masters Degree in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at CU Boulder, I studied under Emeritus Professor Marc Bekoff, who knows a bit about wolves.  He’s on the Scientific Advisory Committee for the issue, and he’s a proponent of Ethical Rewilding here in Colorado.  This would require extensive study of game corridors, population dynamics, and animal-human interaction in order to justify reintroduction - without harm to game populations, and of course, the wolf pack(s) that would be introduced.  Prof. Bekoff argues that the wolves should never need to be killed if they are introduced (i.e. culling the pack).  Cause no harm.  So that can be difficult to achieve here in Colorado.  Use the google machine and see what Prof. Bekoff has to say.

At this point, we may not have all the necessary data to support reintroduction.  But who’s to say it shouldn’t happen in the near future if we have a solid plan in place.  I’m not saying I’m for it.  Just trying to combat stereotypes about those that may consider it (even here on the front range) and knee-jerk reactions.

Learn up on the subject and vote.

Smokin....I owe you a seriously big cowboy hat   

[Akhardwater]

You guys need to remember that in nature animal populations go through boom and bust cycles without human interference.  When conditions are right populations will grow for both predator and prey until they reach the carrying capacity of there ecosystem.  Once overpopulation sets in disease and predation crash the population to the point all animals suffer.  There are valleys in my state that are devoid of all life because 100 years ago the overpopulated wolves killed off everything in that valley and either moved on or starved to death themselves.  We need to properly balance the predators and prey in order to maintain a healthy ecosystem.  If wolf  numbers are left unchecked they will grow in numbers based on their available prey and in some situations will wipe out the remaining prey in there area until they themselves die off or move on.  It’s a vicious cycle that most people don’t understand so they feel that nature should just take care of itself.  What they don’t realize is that without human interference animal populations would be far less than what they are today.  Also you can’t use Yellowstone as a control because it has a massive human presence that does affect animal movements and patterns.  The elk population in the Yellowstone area is not in great shape right now.  Maybe the first few years with wolves did help the population but there numbers have been steadily decreasing due to predation and habitat loss.  So to say the Yellowstone project was a success is partially right because it does show what happens to animal populations with minimal human interaction, but I guarantee that if the wolves aren’t managed you will see a Yellowstone the way it was before man showed up.  Someone also made a comment that wolves only feed on the sick and weak, that is totally false.  Wolves prey on the vulnerable and the easy.  Pregnant female moose and caribou suffer huge losses in late spring when soft snow makes it hard for them to evade predators. They are totally healthy animals that otherwise would be able to avoid the wolves, but given their added weight and deep snow they become easy targets.  I’ve seen wolf kills were only the tongue was eaten if anything so they do kill for sport and I have seen first hand multiple dead caribou that weren’t touch except for the gash in there paunch were the wolf killed the animal.  Wolves are in my opinion the most effective predators on the planet and should always be apart of the ecosystem but as responsible stewards of the land we need to find the balance that allows all species to flourish. 

[stinkyfingers]

Well, I don’t think I’ll stoop to name calling like you.  Also, this is an ice fishing forum, I don’t want to get too heavily into politics.  But the topic is about the outdoors, and it’s about Colorado, so it’s been a fun (civil) discussion until this point.

But I wonder how much someone named “mountain hillbilly” really know about the complex ecological aspects of this issue?

I guess I’m a “front range crybaby”, but I know a thing or two about ecology and population biology.  I’m not crying in my bran flakes about bears and mountain lions, but I do keep up on management issues.

When I received my Masters Degree in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at CU Boulder, I studied under Emeritus Professor Marc Bekoff, who knows a bit about wolves.  He’s on the Scientific Advisory Committee for the issue, and he’s a proponent of Ethical Rewilding here in Colorado.  This would require extensive study of game corridors, population dynamics, and animal-human interaction in order to justify reintroduction - without harm to game populations, and of course, the wolf pack(s) that would be introduced.  Prof. Bekoff argues that the wolves should never need to be killed if they are introduced (i.e. culling the pack).  Cause no harm.  So that can be difficult to achieve here in Colorado.  Use the google machine and see what Prof. Bekoff has to say.

At this point, we may not have all the necessary data to support reintroduction.  But who’s to say it shouldn’t happen in the near future if we have a solid plan in place.  I’m not saying I’m for it.  Just trying to combat stereotypes about those that may consider it (even here on the front range) and knee-jerk reactions.

Learn up on the subject and vote.

You guys need to remember that in nature animal populations go through boom and bust cycles without human interference.  When conditions are right populations will grow for both predator and prey until they reach the carrying capacity of there ecosystem.  Once overpopulation sets in disease and predation crash the population to the point all animals suffer.  There are valleys in my state that are devoid of all life because 100 years ago the overpopulated wolves killed off everything in that valley and either moved on or starved to death themselves.  We need to properly balance the predators and prey in order to maintain a healthy ecosystem.  If wolf  numbers are left unchecked they will grow in numbers based on their available prey and in some situations will wipe out the remaining prey in there area until they themselves die off or move on.  It’s a vicious cycle that most people don’t understand so they feel that nature should just take care of itself.  What they don’t realize is that without human interference animal populations would be far less than what they are today.  Also you can’t use Yellowstone as a control because it has a massive human presence that does affect animal movements and patterns.  The elk population in the Yellowstone area is not in great shape right now.  Maybe the first few years with wolves did help the population but there numbers have been steadily decreasing due to predation and habitat loss.  So to say the Yellowstone project was a success is partially right because it does show what happens to animal populations with minimal human interaction, but I guarantee that if the wolves aren’t managed you will see a Yellowstone the way it was before man showed up.  Someone also made a comment that wolves only feed on the sick and weak, that is totally false.  Wolves prey on the vulnerable and the easy.  Pregnant female moose and caribou suffer huge losses in late spring when soft snow makes it hard for them to evade predators. They are totally healthy animals that otherwise would be able to avoid the wolves, but given their added weight and deep snow they become easy targets.  I’ve seen wolf kills were only the tongue was eaten if anything so they do kill for sport and I have seen first hand multiple dead caribou that weren’t touch except for the gash in there paunch were the wolf killed the animal.  Wolves are in my opinion the most effective predators on the planet and should always be apart of the ecosystem but as responsible stewards of the land we need to find the balance that allows all species to flourish. 

Preach it, boys. Say it. Amen.

[Pheasanttail]

I don’t believe there is a more polarizing animal than the wolf in the US. Lots of wolf lovers and lots of wolf haters out there in society and both sides are spewing BS concerning the proposed reintroduction in Colorado. I personally see no reason to introduce them if they are arriving here on their own. Reintroduction will only speed up the inevitable, so why waste the money. They will kill livestock and impact game populations once they are established.  They’re wolves, they eat meat. I don’t love or hate them. They are just an animal trying to survive. There are 5.5 million people in this state, so adding wolves to the mix is not going to restore any ecosystem unless the wolves eat 5 million of us. The most concerning aspect of having them in Colorado is that we now have a population of urbanites that may not approve of regulated wolf hunting.

[troutbiscuits]

I think the best thing to do here is protect the populations that are already in Colorado and see what happens, no need to introduce more to Colorado. They are coming here naturally so let them. Humans have tried to play god with nature so many times, and the effects are rarely what was predicted/intended.

[troutbiscuits]

Does bear spray work on wolves? i imagine it does.. but... ive seen "the gray" and i'm not trying to run into them.

Have you ever used Bear Spray? IMO that stuff will work on almost anything... it is terrible bad stuff. One tiny puff of it will make your eyes feel like they are melting and make you feel like you are gonna cough up a lung.

[Akhardwater]

 Bear spray works on non predatory attacks.  You will need to switch to lead bear spray if the animal actually wants to eat you.

[Gunflint]

Bear spray works on non predatory attacks.  You will need to switch to lead bear spray if the animal actually wants to eat you.

Or soy sauce...

Bear sushi!

[stinkyfingers]

Does bear spray work on wolves? i imagine it does.. but... ive seen "the gray" and i'm not trying to run into them.

Yeah, you're borrowing worry there. You're not going to get close enough to a wolf for pepper spray to come into play. Even your odds of needing the stuff to battle a bear in Moffat

County are vanishingly remote.

[ronco]

Here's something nobody has brought up, the cost.
Colorado Parks and Wildlife estimates that reintroducing wolves would cost the state nearly $5.7 million over the next eight years, records show.

https://kdvr.com/2019/12/10/problem-solvers-the-cost-of-reintroducing-gray-wolves-in-colorado/

Who is going to pay for that, CPW which is us with our dollars, not the mostly out of  state groups that helped get this on the ballot.

In 1982, 1989, 2004, and 2016, Colorado Parks and Wildlife met to “discuss wolf reintroduction,” says John Murtaugh, the Rockies and Plains representative for a D.C. based organization called Defenders of Wildlife, which made a $100,000 in-kind donation to the Wolf Action Fund. “Each time they discussed it,” he adds, “they arrived at the same conclusion, which is that they don’t have the authority to make this decision.”

https://www.coloradoindependent.com/2020/01/06/colorado-reintroduction-gray-wolf-ballot-measure-explainer/

It is in the voters hands in November.

[TimK]

Bear spray works on non predatory attacks.  You will need to switch to lead bear spray if the animal actually wants to eat you.

If im gonna get killed by an animal in the back country, Im sure as heck not going down with a can of pepper spray in hand.  Wolves dont worry me, if we had griz id be packin for sure though.

[stinkyfingers]

https://kdvr.com/2019/12/10/problem-solvers-the-cost-of-reintroducing-gray-wolves-in-colorado/[/url]




https://www.coloradoindependent.com/2020/01/06/colorado-reintroduction-gray-wolf-ballot-measure-explainer/

It is in the voters hands in November.

Good article. This last Fall I was approached outside my local Trader Joe's store by a signature harvester promoting this wolf re-introduction proposal. Notice that I said Trader Joe's, home of fancy snacks, dairy products and frozen prepared foods. Two things to note: why would they harvest signatures in Colorado Springs, so many miles from those Western Slope counties? Wolves will certainly not impact our lives in the Springs but they sure as hell will over there. And why are they asking Trader Joe's nitwits like me instead of standing outside the local Sportsmen's Warehouse or Bass Pro Shop where you might expect to meet voters who may have real experience in the wild and at least a passing interest in wildlife ecology? Feels like the fix is in. By the way, I told Mr. Signature to stick it where the wolf don't howl.

I know this isn't about ice fishing but I've already bailed on that for the season and I need something to vent about.