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Montana => Ice Fishing Montana => Topic started by: RuralMT on Jan 30, 2019, 07:57 PM

Title: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Jan 30, 2019, 07:57 PM
I feel like there must be a simple answer to the following question, but why doesn't the FWP stock bull trout?  I came across a study done by "The Montana Bull Trout Restoration Team" published in 1996 about the role of stocking in their recovery, and if I read it right, they advocated stocking to help establish self-sustaining populations. (link to article below).  Also, it appears that the FWP attempted to stock them consistently from 1945-53, but abruptly quit (except for one more plant in 1959).  Are they prohibitively expensive to raise in a hatchery?  Any guesses as to what prompted them to quit trying?  The report seemed to imply that it would benefit the population.  I understand how/why the FWP quit stocking trout in our rivers, but why not stock bull trout in lakes if it can be done?

http://www.flatheadtu.org/indexFiles/WebDocs/BT21.pdf

https://myfwp.mt.gov/fishMT/plants/plantreport   (You'll have to enter bull trout into the species filter to see the results I referred to above) 

Edit: I forgot to add a link to the article that prompted this post which, as you'll see, touts a successful egg-capture, raising, and planting of bull trout from one lake in Glacier Park to another.  I'll paste it below.

https://www.bigforkeagle.com/local_news/20180708/native_bull_trout_reintroduced_to_glacier_lakes
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: missoulafish on Jan 30, 2019, 08:42 PM
I was gonna ask about where they would find a viable source of eggs ....
I'm guessing that it must excessively prohibitive for some reason?
Are Brook trout wider spread now?
Possibly have to do with hybridization?
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: pikepoisen on Jan 31, 2019, 06:30 AM
In regards to the stocking of Bull Trout,  Why not just stock Walleye?  From what I have read and observed, both of these species live primarily on other fish.   Bull Trout  (DOLLY VARDEN) can have quite an impact on Brook Trout populations when they are in the same water system.  Just saying
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: MT_btagger on Jan 31, 2019, 09:06 AM
My guess is the Endangered Species Act paperwork.

I'm not exactly sure would it would require, but I bet it would be a b***h, and the costs in time and money would far outweigh the benefits.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Jan 31, 2019, 05:27 PM
Quote
Are Brook trout wider spread now?
Possibly have to do with hybridization?

I had the same thought and looked into the brook trout stocking...exponential ly more brook trout are being and have been planted over the decades.  And that seems strange, since the most recent stocking is in Georgetown which, correct me if I'm wrong, drains into the Clark Fork via Flint Creek?  That seems inherently deleterious to the goal of reviving bull trout populations...planting a non-native char into a system with native bulls. 

Quote
In regards to the stocking of Bull Trout,  Why not just stock Walleye?

I'm not sure how adding another piscivorous competitor would benefit the bull trout population?



Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: WilleyBooger on Jan 31, 2019, 08:21 PM
I had the same thought and looked into the brook trout stocking...exponential ly more brook trout are being and have been planted over the decades.  And that seems strange, since the most recent stocking is in Georgetown which, correct me if I'm wrong, drains into the Clark Fork via Flint Creek?  That seems inherently deleterious to the goal of reviving bull trout populations...planting a non-native char into a system with native bulls. 

I'm not sure how adding another piscivorous competitor would benefit the bull trout population?

About a dozen years ago I heard the previous FWP fisheries manager for Georgetown give a talk. He had asked they plant brook trout in Georgetown because he considered it to have been the best brook trout fishery in the lower 48 that you drive up to, but the brook trout population had crashed severely. He wanted to get that brook trout fishery restarted. His manager said they don't generally stock brook trout west of the Divide because they will interbreed with bull trout. The former fisheries manager said "Did you ever hear the one about the horse and the barn door?" There are a number of fishermen who are passionate about fishing for brook trout in Georgetown and would be upset (and vocal) if FWP stopped planting brooks there.

There are so many brook trout in the Clark Fork drainage I doubt that stocking brook trout in Georgetown has a significant effect on the interbreeding of bulls and brooks.

I, too, have wondered why there is no bull trout stocking program. They stock cutthroats and grayling for native species restoration purposes but apparently the stocking of bull trout is forbidden. I hope that someone with inside knowledge can tell us why they won't or can't stock bull trout.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 01, 2019, 03:59 AM
In regards to the stocking of Bull Trout,  Why not just stock Walleye?  From what I have read and observed, both of these species live primarily on other fish.   Bull Trout  (DOLLY VARDEN) can have quite an impact on Brook Trout populations when they are in the same water system.  Just saying

Dolly Varden are ocean run Bull Trout.  I cannot prove for sure, but I sincerely doubt that there are Dolly Varden in Montana.  At one time, Lakers, Brook, Bull, Artic Char, and Dolly Varden were all categorized as Dolly Varden.  I would hate to start this confusion again.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: The Linguist on Feb 01, 2019, 12:12 PM
I am no fisheries biologist, but according to info from Wikipedia:

“Most populations of the northern Dolly Varden (S. m. malma) are semi-anadromous, while more fluvial and lacustrine populations are found among the southern Dolly Varden (S. m. lordi).”
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 01, 2019, 12:20 PM
I am no fisheries biologist, but according to info from Wikipedia:

“Most populations of the northern Dolly Varden (S. m. malma) are semi-anadromous, while more fluvial and lacustrine populations are found among the southern Dolly Varden (S. m. lordi).”

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other species currently or formerly known as "Dolly Varden trout", see bull trout and Arctic char.

The Dolly Varden trout (Salvelinus malma) is a species of salmonid native to cold-water tributaries of the Pacific Ocean in Asia and North America. It is in the genus Salvelinus of true chars.


This was above what you posted.  I like that they know about "formerly known".
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Wenger on Feb 01, 2019, 01:34 PM
The basic difference between ocean going salmonids and fresh water strains  is that some go out to sea and others do not...you can call me captain obvious! ;D

But to the question at hand.  Dollys have access to  the sea and Bull Trout do not.  Genetically I think there is a slight difference.  Then we have sea run cutts and freshwater cutts , steelhead vs rainbows (Kamloops which are widely stocked in MT are landlocked steelhead)  Kokes vs Sockeye, sea trout (sea run browns) vs browns, Sea run or lake run brookies vs brookies, landlocked Atlantic Salmon vs Atlantic Salmon, sea run Arctic Char vs landlocked char.

So if it is a salmonid and it resides in a river system connected to the sea chances are a species living there may well have a sea run strain often living alongside strains that  remain in fresh water all their lives. Strains develop to take advantage of the habitat they occupy. This has been studied extensively in the UK on brown trout and sea trout.   Sea run strains also serve a evolutionary purpose by helping spread the species as a whole far and wide via the sea. Rainbow strains found high in the Mexican mountains and in Baja are all descendants of sea run rainbows.  As is the example of many salmon species being spread all around the Pacific Rim and Atlantic Salmon being spread  from Portugal to New England.

So in my mind the difference is one of semantics to an extent, but with very real differences between the strains.  As for stocking Bull Trout...well good luck.  The only real recovery of Bull Trout can be accomplished if hybridization, habitat rejuvenation, and invasive predator issues be resolved.  In short they are screwed and so are we if they make the Endangered Species List.  Bulls pretty much only do well in river systems which have only them, White Fish and West Slope cutts as the predators. :tipup: 
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: BigSage on Feb 01, 2019, 10:34 PM
Does anyone find it Plausable, that there are some within the system who don’t want Bulls recovered? Then those folks won’t have as much say over regulations, long term plans, other “native” species, etc...
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Born Late on Feb 02, 2019, 07:32 AM
Does anyone find it Plausable, that there are some within the system who don’t want Bulls recovered? Then those folks won’t have as much say over regulations, long term plans, other “native” species, etc...

🙄 Nonsense.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Wenger on Feb 02, 2019, 10:49 AM
Does anyone find it Plausable, that there are some within the system who don’t want Bulls recovered? Then those folks won’t have as much say over regulations, long term plans, other “native” species, etc...

No, the issue is how and what measures would it take.  Just stocking will not work because the same forces that have reduced numbers would not allow stockers to make it either. It is far more complex than just adding more fish. Its about providing an environment that allows them to thrive again. If that were achieved then the wild fish would have no problem recovering.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: The Linguist on Feb 02, 2019, 11:10 AM
It’s all about the habitat and what is in it. Bull trout need clean, cold water without the presence of brook trout and predators. Stocking can be used as a tool to enhance a location that may be able to support a self-sustainable population. Case in point is Grace Lake in Glacier Park that was stocked with bull trout eggs from another nearby lake. There is a waterfall that acts as a barrier for lake trout getting into Grace Lake.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: The Linguist on Feb 02, 2019, 11:20 AM
Thanks for starting this thread RuralMT. It’s a good topic for discussion. 😀
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 02, 2019, 11:39 AM
It’s all about the habitat and what is in it. Bull trout need clean, cold water without the presence of brook trout and predators. Stocking can be used as a tool to enhance a location that may be able to support a self-sustainable population. Case in point is Grace Lake in Glacier Park that was stocked with bull trout eggs from another nearby lake. There is a waterfall that acts as a barrier for lake trout getting into Grace Lake.

'Bull trout need clean, cold water' Come on Global Warming!  Rid us of this issue.  Then we can carry on without eradicating 20 other species to save one. 
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Feb 04, 2019, 06:18 PM
My pleasure Linguist!  It certainly intrigued me! 

Quote
No, the issue is how and what measures would it take.  Just stocking will not work because the same forces that have reduced numbers would not allow stockers to make it either.

Oh, no doubt.  I didn't mean to suggest that we should stock them in sewage ponds and expect positive results.  However, if the name of the game is to knock back the lake trout numbers in favor of bull trout in Flathead Lake, why not supplement the effort via bull trout plants?  The current approach seems like a half-measure that's doomed to fail. 

The stocking regimen for Lake Koocanusa puzzles me as well, a system with numerous, clean, gravel-bottomed tributaries in which bull trout can and do spawn.  They use the Tobacco and Graves Creek and the larger tributaries that feed Koocanusa north of the border.  If they are indeed imperiled in this system (which I question, considering Canada has a catchable daily limit for them on their portion of the reservoir) why on earth would they continue to stock a highly skilled piscivore like the Kamloop?  Both the bulls and kamloops are competing for the same forage base (kokanee) and while the former is a threatened native, they continue to stock the latter.  They go so far as to shut Graves Creek down in the middle of August to protect the spawning run, yet they fill the reservoir with competition...I'm thoroughly confused to say the least. 
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: ElkNut on Feb 07, 2019, 09:10 AM
The 3 c's: Clean, Cold, Connected. There will always be tension between the theoretical and the practical application of basic knowledge. The pressures of development and the desire of the present society for profits at the expense of anything natural, wild, or free has degraded landscapes throughout the world by river engineering, river straightening, construction of levees, dams, and concrete channels. These actions have been the essence of our approach to problems of flood control, navigation, irrigation, hydroelectric development, municipal and industrial water needs, even though at the same time much has been learned about river mechanics, geomorphology, hydraulics, and sedimentation. Despite the new knowledge, the traditional engineering approach to river development has not only dominated valley land management, but has failed to incorporate the practical, physical, aesthetic, and financial advantages of river management.
Without the 3rd C: Connected. Bull trout merely cannot exist in perpetuum.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 07, 2019, 09:31 AM
Let the weaker species die and the strong survive.  There is a such a thing as taking naturalist to the extreme.

The needs of flood control, navigation, irrigation, hydroelectric development, municipal and industrial water are necessary for the population to continue to exist. 

Please let these naturalist set the example by turning off their heat, air conditioners, disconnect from city services of water, sewer, electric, trade the vehicles in for better durable shoes, stop patronizing stores, stop using internet, stop buying paper products and lumber, and stop buying manufactured goods.  When the naturalist start setting the example on how luxurious it is to live off of what they can plant, harvest and raise, then maybe the rest will follow.

You cannot imagine my jollies when I hear there is a climate change meeting somewhere in the world.  I laugh at how many naturalist gas it to the airports, load up a monster jetliner flight to whatever country, taxi to the hotel and hit the streets and protest against petroleum.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Feb 07, 2019, 03:46 PM
Quote
The 3 c's: Clean, Cold, Connected.
I completely agree with the logic, but may I ask if you're merely stating it as a fact or as a justification for not stocking them?  If that is used as a justification to not stock them, then I would say the next logical step would be to wash our hands of the issue entirely.  If alterations to their habitat preclude their recovery, should we be spending millions to achieve the impossible?

Quote
You cannot imagine my jollies when I hear there is a climate change meeting somewhere in the world.  I laugh at how many naturalist gas it to the airports, load up a monster jetliner flight to whatever country, taxi to the hotel and hit the streets and protest against petroleum.
:roflmao:

For the record Quantoson, I'm not advocating the removal of Libby Dam for bull trout recovery.  This thread was my attempt to understand the logic behind how our money is spent or not spent.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 07, 2019, 04:16 PM
RuralMT, understood.  I advocate that the Bull Trout is not an endangered species, it is being used as a way to eradicate other non-native species just because there is a cynical group that feels that all streams, rivers and lakes in the West and mountains should be reverted back to total natural environments for their fishing pleasure.

My position is the Bull trout and cutthroat are still there.  I catch them not by targeting but by fishing.  I have been to Koocanusa fishing for rainbow and catch 3 times as many bull than rainbow.  The same with Hungary Horse, Flathead River, Swan Lake and other places.  Yet $$$$ are spent to dredge lakes of other species, namely Lake Trout, a close cousin of the Bull Trout, difficult to tell them apart.  Lobby dollars at work on the FWP or the FWP has an IQ deficiency. 

If these Bull Trout were so rare, why wouldn't compassionate Canada stop the limits and also impose the same restrictions?  Because they know it is counterfeit.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 07, 2019, 04:25 PM
Additional, what good is fish in the water that your not allow to catch, target or have in procession?  Do we really want a fish that is so delicate nature will destroy it on it's own?  Then what do you fish for, fresh water kelp?
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: grizzlyhackle on Feb 07, 2019, 04:37 PM
My position is the Bull trout and cutthroat are still there.  I catch them not by targeting but by fishing.  I have been to Koocanusa fishing for rainbow and catch 3 times as many bull than rainbow.  The same with Hungary Horse, Flathead River, Swan Lake and other places. 

Any giants? Hard to beat a big bull on a fly rod
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 07, 2019, 04:44 PM
Any giants? Hard to beat a big bull on a fly rod

Monsters!  But I will warn you, using a fly rod will get you in trouble.  With the sissy tipits you play them too long and being the sissy fish that they are, they die.  Here is an article of the troublesome regs to that species.  https://ravallirepublic.com/news/local/article_ae1e9361-6e12-52b7-8130-e1da64cb8c73.html

Too bad for those sportsmen. 
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: missoulafish on Feb 07, 2019, 04:46 PM
they got what they had coming...
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 07, 2019, 04:47 PM
Mike, they caught I think 4 bull trout.  If that ruined the fishery, it was already in desperate shape.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: missoulafish on Feb 07, 2019, 04:52 PM
Thats true Herb, I was more unimpressed with how they handled the backlash and the lying after they got caught.....
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 07, 2019, 04:57 PM
Obviously their defense should have been more forthcoming but with the pressure put upon them, I being the most honest and most law abiding person in the world, I may have taken the same path for fear of punitive damages.

Seriously, why can't we fish for this useless fish?  Treat it like a trout and restock it.  They won't, just to make it last on the list of species of concern.  For crying out loud, the Bob Marshall Wilderness.  What else are you gonna catch? 
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: grizzlyhackle on Feb 07, 2019, 04:59 PM
Monsters!  But I will warn you, using a fly rod will get you in trouble.  With the sissy tipits you play them too long and being the sissy fish that they are, they die.  Here is an article of the troublesome regs to that species.  https://ravallirepublic.com/news/local/article_ae1e9361-6e12-52b7-8130-e1da64cb8c73.html

Too bad for those sportsmen.

8 wt, heavy leader, and big streamers in legal places to target them will get the job done. Haha yes I know all about the MW knuckleheads....its a prime example of what happens when you are trying to be the next internet star filiming instead of fishing.

"Some bull trout were over-handled by the three men for periods of 12 minutes or more, Sommers had charged, and FWP Region 1 fisheries manager Mark Deleray said what the men did with the fish after catching and before releasing them “will no doubt have negative impacts on the bull trout fishery.”
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 07, 2019, 05:11 PM
I'm into 12 lb and 20lb drag them in power prov line.  Bait dunking lead sinker treble hooking setting maniac.  When I catch a perch, it's coming in or losing lips.

I have seen people on the clacker crafts fishing and playing fish for longer periods of time.  You can see those vids on you tube.  Senseless to say they are real sport fishermen.  I release almost everything I catch, cut the line if the hook is too deep.  I keep one maybe two if the wife says she wants rainbow for super.  I don't eat none of that stuff unless it says Gordon's on the box.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Feb 07, 2019, 05:59 PM
Quote
I advocate that the Bull Trout is not an endangered species, it is being used as a way to eradicate other non-native species just because there is a cynical group that feels that all streams, rivers and lakes in the West and mountains should be reverted back to total natural environments for their fishing pleasure.

I'm glad you said it!  I'd love to see one of those fellas make the native-only argument to say...oh I dunno...a native?

I agree though.  It's effectively a perpetual excuse to regulate and control.  And you're spot-on regarding the ratio of fish pulled from Koocanusa.  I've fished it fairly regularly since I've been up here and I've yet to catch or see a rainbow landed, but have caught and released plenty of bulls. 
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Feb 08, 2019, 10:23 PM
Quote
His manager said they don't generally stock brook trout west of the Divide because they will interbreed with bull trout. The former fisheries manager said "Did you ever hear the one about the horse and the barn door?"

My apologies on not commenting on this earlier WooleyBigger, but holy cow this hits at the crux of my argument.  Did he really say that?!?  If folks in the FWP really think this regarding bull trout then holy hell are we wasting a lot of money.  (In case the rest of the readers aren't aware, that's a reference to trying an obvious solution after it's too late).

And folks, I'm sorry to keep this post alive but this is absolutely something every license-holding Montana angler should be considering.  If you haven't connected the dots, there's been several highly-viewed posts as of late regarding the management of our resources.  (Canyon Ferry/Upper Missouri River, trout stocking in Eastern Montana, the war on Noxon's walleye, etc.)  Your money is being spent by others...don't you want a say in how it's spent?
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: coldcreekchris on Feb 10, 2019, 12:50 AM
 just cause you can't  catch and eat a certain species to your liking..you wanna destroy 1000's of years of natural balance...the short sided blah blah about bull trout...is ludicrous...PRISTINE streams ..keep clean....I don't want to hear your spiel bout the gov..did this or that...native species deserve repect ..no matter fish ..insects..,trees..or plants....just cause you don't wanna eat it...f off..its a part of a balanced ecosystem..,.open your eyes...and try not being so self serving and viewing the world how it somehow makes your own world better...jokes on you..all the  crap you b***h about is your own judgement....and  in the end..will be your own demise...fish out with cawk out...
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 10, 2019, 08:31 AM
Motivation for TU is well documented.  They are funded by ultra left wing environmental extremist.
https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/trout-unlimited/

While Trout Unlimited began as a conservationist organization and presents itself as such, changes in leadership and foundation funding have seen it move towards the anti-business environmentalist position. TU makes efforts to stall and block development of America’s mineral resources, running a well-funded campaign against mining in Alaska and pushing over-burdensome regulation of natural gas extraction in Pennsylvania. TU also endorsed the highly controversial “cap-and-trade” proposal before Congress.   ;D

If they have their way, eventually all non-native fish species will be eradicated and you need a expensive stamp, by draw or lottery, to have the opportunity to fish.  Unless you are a licensed guided and member of the organization.

The Canadians don't realize yet.  If you look up the SARA and COSEWIC reports, they are attempting to list the most abundant trout, (Bull Trout) in Canada as a species of concern, COSEWIC trying to list it as endangered.  From BC to the East and all the way up to the Northwest Territories and beyond.

In Vermont, they are closing a rainbow trout hatchery, banned use of bait fishing in several areas, lowered the catch limits for Brook Trout and list areas flies and lures only, to save the native Brook Trout.  LOL.   In Montana, Idaho and Washington they want to wipe out the Brook trout among other species. Irony!  :roflmao:
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Born Late on Feb 10, 2019, 09:14 AM
In the interest of balance, it may be worth noting that CORE and the linked site, Activist “Facts”, are the creations of inside-the-Beltway professional smear campaign fabricator Dick (speaking of ironic) Berman.
https://www.hatchmag.com/articles/trashing-sportsmen-influence-spurs-smear-campaign/7712361
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 10, 2019, 09:20 AM
Facts don't represent lies.  Funding sources are well documented no matter how you try to put a spin on the issue.  If you can prove otherwise, please do.  Here is a brief run down of the officers.



TU National President Christopher Wood has donated to Democratic Senatorial candidates and was a member of President Obama’s 2008 Department of Agriculture Transition Team. The Associated Press reported that Wood, a high-ranking policy staffer in the U.S. Forest Service during President Bill Clinton’s time in office, was initially favored to be President Obama’s nominee to head the USDA’s Natural Resources Conservation Service. Wood was reportedly denied the post because he was a registered lobbyist from 2002 through 2007. (Obama had pledged not to nominate lobbyists to government posts.)

TU’s Vice President for Western Conservation, Robert Masonis, previously worked for the environmentalist group American Rivers; TU’s head lobbyist, Steve Moyer, previously worked for the environmentalist National Wildlife Federation.

Trustee Walter Minnick served from 2009-2011 as a U.S. Representative from Idaho as a Democrat.

Trustee Kai Anderson is a lobbyist for Cassidy and Associates, representing several solar energy firms, the Pew Charitable Trusts, and the environmentalist Resources Legacy Fund. Before joining Cassidy, Anderson was Deputy Chief of Staff to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada.

Trustee Michael Dombeck was Director of the United States Forest Service during the Clinton administration; Wood was his communications aide.

Other trustees, including Nancy McKinnon, Valerie Colas-Ohrstrom, and Paul Doscher, have worked for or served on the boards of environmental groups including the Nature Conservancy, the Black Rock Forest Consortium, and the Society for the Protection of New Hampshire Forests.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 10, 2019, 09:27 AM
Forgot to mention, hatchmag.com is a fly fishing blog along with several environmental accents.  ::)
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Feb 10, 2019, 10:05 AM
Quote
try not being so self serving and viewing the world how it somehow makes your own world better...jokes on you..all the  crap you b***h about is your own judgement.

With all due respect CCC, we live in a democratic republic in which our viewpoints are supposed to drive policy.  So yes, I will happily express my viewpoint when appropriate and will smile and point to the First Amendment in my defense.  You seem to imply that we must accept the viewpoints of those in power...I imagine Jefferson, Adams, Washington and the like would have something to say about that.  You call it a "spiel," I call it responsible citizenship. 

Quote
just cause you can't  catch and eat a certain species to your liking..you wanna destroy 1000's of years of natural balance

Please re-read my original post.  Not once did I advocate the destruction of "1000s of years of natural balance."  In fact, I wanted clarification regarding the protection of the bull trout and why our state's policies appear to be contradictory in that regard.  The post is literally about the stocking of bull trout after all.  And yes, I prefer to eat perch over rainbow, but again, you're woefully off-base regarding my palate.  I'm fortunate enough to live and fish in an area where we can harvest one bull a year and find them to be absolutely fantastic table fare.  I'd love for them to restored, I merely wanted to know why our approach to their restoration appears half-a**ed. 

Quote
f off..its a part of a balanced ecosystem...native species deserve repect
Your beloved Georgetown is plum full of non-native species.  Are you showing the natives "respect" by promoting the destruction of the kokanee, brook trout, and rainbows?
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 10, 2019, 10:21 AM
With all due respect CCC, we live in a democratic republic in which our viewpoints are supposed to drive policy.  So yes, I will happily express my viewpoint when appropriate and will smile and point to the First Amendment in my defense.  You seem to imply that we must accept the viewpoints of those in power...I imagine Jefferson, Adams, Washington and the like would have something to say about that.  You call it a "spiel," I call it responsible citizenship. 

Please re-read my original post.  Not once did I advocate the destruction of "1000s of years of natural balance."  In fact, I wanted clarification regarding the protection of the bull trout and why our state's policies appear to be contradictory in that regard.  The post is literally about the stocking of bull trout after all.  And yes, I prefer to eat perch over rainbow, but again, you're woefully off-base regarding my palate.  I'm fortunate enough to live and fish in an area where we can harvest one bull a year and find them to be absolutely fantastic table fare.  I'd love for them to restored, I merely wanted to know why our approach to their restoration appears half-a**ed. 
Your beloved Georgetown is plum full of non-native species.  Are you showing the natives "respect" by promoting the destruction of the kokanee, brook trout, and rainbows?

Well put RuralMT.  Very diplomatic and to point.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Born Late on Feb 10, 2019, 10:42 AM
Here is a brief run down of the officers.

TU National President Christopher Wood has donated to Democratic Senatorial candidates and was a member of President Obama’s 2008 Department of Agriculture Transition Team. The Associated Press reported that Wood, a high-ranking policy staffer in the U.S. Forest Service during President Bill Clinton’s time in office, was initially favored to be President Obama’s nominee to head the USDA’s Natural Resources Conservation Service. Wood was reportedly denied the post because he was a registered lobbyist from 2002 through 2007. (Obama had pledged not to nominate lobbyists to government posts.)

TU’s Vice President for Western Conservation, Robert Masonis, previously worked for the environmentalist group American Rivers; TU’s head lobbyist, Steve Moyer, previously worked for the environmentalist National Wildlife Federation.

Trustee Walter Minnick served from 2009-2011 as a U.S. Representative from Idaho as a Democrat.

Trustee Kai Anderson is a lobbyist for Cassidy and Associates, representing several solar energy firms, the Pew Charitable Trusts, and the environmentalist Resources Legacy Fund. Before joining Cassidy, Anderson was Deputy Chief of Staff to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada.

Trustee Michael Dombeck was Director of the United States Forest Service during the Clinton administration; Wood was his communications aide.

Other trustees, including Nancy McKinnon, Valerie Colas-Ohrstrom, and Paul Doscher, have worked for or served on the boards of environmental groups including the Nature Conservancy, the Black Rock Forest Consortium, and the Society for the Protection of New Hampshire Forests.

A conservation organization is comprised of and funded by people with experience in conservation, outdoor recreation and environmental activism? OMG...I’m SHOCKED.

Are you suggesting that those funding oil, gas, logging and mining interests in opposition to conservation are not employed by and/or invested in those industries? And, the latter is okay but the former is not?

Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 10, 2019, 10:54 AM
A conservation organization is comprised of and funded by people with experience in conservation, outdoor recreation and environmental activism? OMG...I’m SHOCKED.

Are you suggesting that those funding oil, gas, logging and mining interests in opposition to conservation are not employed by and/or invested in those industries? And, the latter is okay but the former is not?

Spin it to please you.  I use real public docs and public disclosure facts which upsets members and administrators of TU and now shows the real intent behind TU.  TU is not interested in pleasurable outdoor experience for the public unless it has been transformed back into time 500 hundreds years.

TU is ultra liberal, supports environmental extremism.  You should read their lobbying records.  Even Obama thought that their efforts were too far left for his administration. 

 
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: coldcreekchris on Feb 10, 2019, 11:48 AM
without getting into politics...which have been explained here very well by others.. my point was that each side of government has its own agenda and lobby and the manipulate the perception of the public to support the agenda no matter the side of the issue....my point is all life has meaning...in balance....my response about the bull trout was not based on political issues..just my opinion that life is needs to be respected..whether its rainbows.....bulls...p erch... we messed so much stuff up..no we have overpopulations of envasive species...management issues...yes the earth's resources are blessed..they build our homes and feed our families....but all needs to be harvested and viewed with the fact that its all connected and our actions matter....finally..... . i guess i could have initially said bull trout are fish too....apologies for that....being buzzed makes the words come out with a little added snark and without buffer...
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 10, 2019, 12:09 PM
without getting into politics...which have been explained here very well by others.. my point was that each side of government has its own agenda and lobby and the manipulate the perception of the public to support the agenda no matter the side of the issue....my point is all life has meaning...in balance....my response about the bull trout was not based on political issues..just my opinion that life is needs to be respected..whether its rainbows.....bulls...p erch... we messed so much stuff up..no we have overpopulations of envasive species...management issues...yes the earth's resources are blessed..they build our homes and feed our families....but all needs to be harvested and viewed with the fact that its all connected and our actions matter....finally..... . i guess i could have initially said bull trout are fish too....apologies for that....being buzzed makes the words come out with a little added snark and without buffer...

Understood coldcreekchris.  Passion for what you want and try to convey sometimes puts people on edge.  That's the fun part for me since I read 'How to Troll Like A Pro'.

The thing I don't understand is 'being buzzed'? ???  Where I'm at there isn't a fly, mosquito, bee or spider.  You may look into the Deet stuff.  Pretty good in the spring and summer here in Pondera County.

Cheers and Well Wishes!

Herb
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Rosiepike on Feb 15, 2019, 11:22 PM
This forum has gone from being a decent discussion into rambling rant. The initial question was a valid one, and the discussion that followed brought up the logical question of why bull stockings have not occurred. There are lakes where they would do quite well, and they would be awesome to catch through the ice, which brings up the next point. Why should we even try? Well, if you could catch a 10-20lb trout through the ice (on a regular basis), a fish which also happens to be the largest native salmonid in Montana (or the greater Northwest for that matter not counting anadromous fish), what would you do? Go catch 8'' perch? If FWP stocked bullies and they did well in a few select lakes and reservoirs with the right conditions (and people could fish for them), some of bull haters would stay off forums like this one. Why not stock them? See how they do.
And bulls and dollies are not the same fish, though they do look a lot alike and can be called the same thing! They are as different as a bull and a brookie!  Bulls have huge heads; dollies heads are way smaller. Dollies eat eggs and fry; bulls like meat! There are also anadromous bulls in Puget Sound as well as dollies, but I'd take a 20lb bull over a 3lb dollie any day! Let's stock 'em and see what happens.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Feb 15, 2019, 11:42 PM
I took it upon myself to have a conversation with a FWP biologist, friend, and fellow angler, and this is what he informed me.  Bull trout stocking is completely viable and currently in use throughout other regions of North America and isolated sections of Montana.  However, (and this was enlightening) bull trout can differ in genetics from one drainage to another, meaning the traits that favored survival in the Yaak drainage might differ from those that produced a viable population 40 miles east (say in the Tobacco drainage).  Thus, if you stock a bull with Yaak genetics in the Tobacco drainage, you introduce recessive genes that might hinder the success of the natives of the Tobacco.  (In my mind) This is a fantastic explanation as to why you don't stock random bull trout in Koocanusa Reservoir.  Furthermore, he informed me that Koocanusa's bull trout population is among the strongest in the world; stocking fish would be pointless/detrimental.

However, my friend's next statement keeps this thread alive; I asked him if stocking was to take place, what would be the criteria.  He informed me that to stock bull trout, you would need to stock the genetics native to that system...which, to me, meant that if you're going to stock Koocanusa, you need to collect eggs from fish that live in Koocanusa.  Makes perfect sense to me, but what doesn't make sense is why we're not sampling eggs from across the state and planting the eggs in the regions in which they're viable...say in the streams that feed their historical strongholds.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Rosiepike on Feb 17, 2019, 09:14 PM
Stocking bulls that are genetically coded to the region where they're stocked makes a lot of sense. I'd call that "smart stocking" and would like to see some follow-up from a FWP biologist on why they can't do it, but I'm pretty sure the answer has to do with resources (they know how but are tied to too many other interests) and the somewhat founded fear that if fishing opened up in certain areas, people might get the idea that the fish have recovered everywhere. At the very least, it make sense to keep some eggs, fry, and broodstock from various regional populations for arguably MT's coolest native fish (a fish which also might disappear in the state in the next century). And as someone pointed out in an earlier post, Westslopes are stocked extensively throughout the region. Why not experiment with localized bulls in a couple of optimal sites? RuralMT: Next time you see biologist friend, maybe ask him if it's politics, logistics, finances, or fear of an misinformed public that keeps the state from experimenting with bully stockings. Thanks!
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Feb 18, 2019, 03:59 PM
Quote
RuralMT: Next time you see biologist friend, maybe ask him if it's politics, logistics, finances, or fear of an misinformed public that keeps the state from experimenting with bully stockings.

Will do Rosie!  He seemed quite eager to chat about it; I doubt he gets to discuss his area of expertise with too many people outside of the workplace. 

Quote
somewhat founded fear that if fishing opened up in certain areas, people might get the idea that the fish have recovered everywhere

This is an intriguing point that I hadn't considered.  As often as you read on here something to the effect of "read the regs...it's your responsibility" it's clear everyone doesn't know them by heart.  I can see how those in power would be afraid of isolated openings and a patchwork of regulations. 
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: IcemCF on Feb 22, 2019, 11:27 AM
Great thread! I hesitate to typically weigh in on most heated threads, but I find this one to be interesting and a chance to inform some people... so here it goes.

I wish there were a simple answer to the question of "why doesn't FWP stock bull trout if they are imperiled?" However, like most things it is complicated. First for those that are unaware, here is a brief synopsis of what bull trout are facing. Bull trout are a federally listed species, meaning they are protected by the Endangered Species Act, and are currently listed as threatened. Bull trout numbers have declined throughout their range, that is not to say they no longer exist in many of the historically occupied streams, but rather that their numbers have declined percipitously throughout their range. Leading to extirpation in some areas and largely depressed numbers in others. While we in Montana are lucky that we have 2 populations (south fork Flathead, and Kootenai- kookanusa) that are among two of the strongest bull trout populations throughout their range, the vast majority of populations are exhibiting declines due to threats. These threats can largely be summarized as: habitat threats, demographic threats, non native species threats, and finally climate change threats.

Habitat threats are typically those such as forest practices, livestock grazing,and road and transportation corridor presence and management. Most of the populations that are degraded under this category are those in areas that are in managed landscapes with high proportions of private land ownership. Largely spawning and rearing  habitat has been improving on lands managed by the USFS and by the state over the last 25 years, but residential development continues to be a threat. 

Demographic threats are used to typically describe loss of connectivity resulting in populations being reduced to the point of genetic bottlenecks, or even extirpation. This loss of connectivity is typically brought on by things such as dams and irrigation diversions. Examples here are the impounding of the Clark Fork at Thompson Falls, Noxon, and Cabinet Gorge which have effectively removed the river dwelling fluvial component of bull trout that migrated between Pend Orielle and the upper Clark Fork. Additionally small and large  diversions where bull trout are entrained and are lost down the ditches. Basically, this threat is the loss off connectivity between populations.

 Non native species threats are just as stated, and what typically leads to the most heated discussions. Non native species such as pike, walleye, lake trout, brook trout and brown trout either compete, predate upon, or in the case of brook trout hybridized with bull trout causing declines. Unfortunately, this threat is ever expanding thanks to both a lack of understanding in past management practices and select people that prefer to fish for specific species and  thus move things around on their own.

Finally climate change, bull trout are unique in that they require colder stream temps than most of the nonnatives. While much of bull trout habitat will exhibit thermal changes due to climate change, this one tends to threaten river (fluvial) populations to a greater extant than those that are lake dwelling and exhibit an adfluvial (lake dwelling with migratory spawning in rivers and streams) life history. Fluvial populations such as those in the Clark Fork and Bitterroot are going to be hit hardest here. Think, summer temperatures increasing to the point of fishing closures which has now become common place. But additionally changes in runoff timing and severity also threaten juveniles and eggs while they are in the gravel. Compounding the effects of climate change, are things like artificial reservoirs and irrigation diversions that either pool water or divert water reducing flow in the mainstems creating rivers that are smaller, shallower and more easily effected by climate change. So that is the background. Next I will try to answer the crux of the question "if they are imperiled, why not just begin stocking them to aid their recovery?"

This one is complex. First, there are very few fish hatchery facilities that are supplied with cold enough water to rear bull trout. That is not to say there aren't a few, but the majority simply cannot do it. That's the easy one :). 

Then there is the issue that someone else speculated about, you cannot simply raise these fish and plant them and expect them to recover, without first fixing the habitat threats that I listed previously. While someone mentioned the project in Glacier, that is an ideal situation in that it is a system where bull trout historically thrived (Logging Lake), and actions to remove the threats are occurring simultaneously while bull trout are trying to be recovered in the drainage. This project is focused on removing the threat of lake trout in Logging Lake while simultaneously transplanting bull trout to Grace Lake (which is upstream of a natural waterfall that is a fish barrier above logging lake). The hope is that by creating a population in Grace Lake as a sort of refuge, managers can reduce the threat of lake trout in Logging Lake, then the bull trout population will naturally rebound. A quick history, Logging was perhaps the largest bull trout population in Glacier, within roughly 30 years of being invaded by lake trout that migrated from Flathead, bull trout were all but extirpated. Additionally, as some one else stated it is ideal to translocate bull trout that are either from the same drainage, or "the nearest neighbor" genetically speaking.

Finally, and if you are still reading, comes the most complex issue. The politics. This one is multifaceted. FWP is often challenged with the goal of managing for native species, while managing for the public. Meaning, in the Georgetown example earlier, they are deferring the management of the lake for native species for the management of the recreational fishery that the public wants.

To further convolute the political side. Stocking of migratory species without fixing the threats is exemplified by salmon and steelhead  management. If managers were to simply begin stocking bull trout without fixing the threats you would get a program that is completely artificial and as shown by the salmon and steelhead program...prohibitivel y expensive and unsuccessful. Although in the near term bull trout populations  would increase, the longterm prognosis for bull trout would not be good, and rather than focusing on how to fix it managers would simply be putting a "band aid on a bullet wound" sort of speak. This type of action is usually reserved for dire cases where there is no other option. To complicate this, the government would be litigated endlessly because they would not be "recovering" bull trout, but rather propagating and supplementing bull trout throughout their range, without fixing what ails them. Creating an artificial put and take fishery that niether aides recovery nor addresses the larger issue of the threats.

I hope this helps. This is something that could be talked about for hours, or even days. Great question!
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: hoofer on Feb 22, 2019, 11:36 AM
thanks for the book.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: pmmpete on Feb 22, 2019, 11:39 AM
IcemCF, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: missoulafish on Feb 22, 2019, 11:44 AM
Yes, what Pete said. Thanks for a great reply!
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Quantoson on Feb 22, 2019, 06:35 PM
When he thru climate change in there, I stopped reading.  So I don't know the rest of the content and don't care at this point.  To me it's turned into another liberal rant after the climate change statement.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: RuralMT on Feb 22, 2019, 08:21 PM
Thank you IcemCF.  Your detailed response is precisely why I started this thread to begin with.  I wanted a detailed answer that Google couldn't readily provide and you came through! 

To further pick your brain, however, did you rank the threats to their recovery in any particular order?  You've clearly given this some thought and/or have a particular expertise in the area so I'm curious.  If you were the bull trout czar responsible for their recovery, how would you prioritize your spending?  Habitat and connectivity sounds like a make or break deal to me.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: mtjigalo on Feb 22, 2019, 11:51 PM
This is getting interesting. Great post IcemCF and great follow up questions RuralMT.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: IcemCF on Feb 23, 2019, 12:04 PM
Good follow up RuralMT. Another complicated question. To view the current Bull Trout Recovery go here: https://www.fws.gov/pacific/bulltrout/Planning.html
And click on "Columbia River Headwaters". Within this document the service (US fish and wildlife service) identifies and ranks the various threats to each bull trout core area. Additionally it lists how to address the threats.   This plan largely answers the core of your question " did you list the threats in a specific order" the service provides all of the relevant information pertaining to what threats are present in which core areas and it ranks the threats. The answer to your question is complicated, but put simply, it depends on which core area are you asking about.

For the second part of your question "if you were BLT czar, how would you prioritize spending" I will answer as if the service needed no collaboration with any other agency, or private entity (politics aside),  the timeline is not affected by the threat of extirpation of core area populations, and that money was not an issue (which all are obviously huge components in reality, but complicate the answer to your question significantly).

If I were czar and all of the above caveats were in place, I would prioritize the habitat threat, then the invasive species threat, and then finally focus on the demographic threat ( think reconnecting everything). My thinking is that you fix the habitat ensuring the habitat is suitable to sustain healthy populations, then remove invasive species to ensure they will not colonize new areas that are currently inaccessible due to barriers, then reconnect all of the core areas.

I am guessing your question however, is more aimed at how would you address recovery without all of the previous caveats. Again, super complicated due to the varying management mandates of various agencies and land ownership, cost, and threat of extirpation. So, I will ask you, what area of the Columbia Headwaters Recovery Unit (think large drainages) are you asking about and I will give you my thoughts. Summarized from a very broad view it would likely go something like this in no particular order: Flathead, prioritize the removal of invasive species that threaten bull trout (first lake trout, then brook trout, then pike) unfortunately this list continues to grow as fish are moved around by anglers; kootenai (this is the kootenai river below the dam) reconnect the river by creating selective fish passage at all 8 dams and try to create as naturalized hydrograph as possible; lower Clark Fork implement selective fish passage at Cabinet Gorge, Noxon (Thompson Falls already has it), remove threats of invasives (first walleye, brook trout, then brown trout, people love the pike and bass fishery to much to go into that); upper Clark Fork clean up contamination from mining legacy, improve habitat including restricting irrigation diversions to the minimal flows needed by the current water rights owners, regulate development to allow natural river behavior including de-armoring  stream banks, remove invasives (first brook trout then brown trout, and to a lesser degree pike).

Again, this is super broad, as each larger unit has multiple core areas within, and for each of those the prioritization of actions to reduce threats would varry considerably.
Title: Re: Bull Trout Stocking
Post by: Wenger on Feb 23, 2019, 03:50 PM
In short bull trout in MT are screwed. They have as a species survived several drastic changes in climate and either retreat north or expand south as all salmonids do.  We see nature as it is now, a blink of an eye in our planetary timeframe.  In reality we need to enjoy our time with the bull trout or whatever species, do what we can in terms of recovery and habitat as we have with elk, antelope and deer and not get to Debbie Downer about living in perhaps the best spot on earth. And news flash OAC...the earth has far longer than ten years left.