Author Topic: When a Pike breaks off, is it their teeth or sheer strength that is the cause?  (Read 14200 times)

Offline IceRaider

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I'm sure both things happen, but I'm wondering 'in most cases', does a break off occur due to an abrasive cutting action of their teeth rubbing against the line? or does the pike thrash with such force that the resistance exceeds the line weight limit and simply snaps the line? Just wondering which it is most of the time. The fact that people say they lose less fish when using steel leaders leads me to believe that it must be the teeth that is causing most break offs.

Offline pikeaddict

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To much tension on the line when the pike thrashes its able to cut/abraid thru the line with their teeth.  I have had pike sit there and shake their head back and forth under the hole trying to get off, but to no avail b/c the line is slack. My response is based on experience using fluorocarbon line.

Offline WildFisherWomanVT

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I believe its their teeth. If they swallow the hook and you pull the line tight sometimes when it shifts when they thrash and turn to run a tooth will catch the line just right. However, most breakoffs I experienced and see other experience is when they go to yank a pike up the hole. They go from low weight in water to x amount of lbs on their way up and out and when they thrash the line can cut. Get the gaff!  ;D
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Offline IceRaider

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Thanks for the responses guys.

I asked this because I had an idea of using fluoro leaders but covering the areas nearest to the hook with 3"-5" length of micro spring. This would cover the area of line where the pike's teeth would make contact. Since the spring is metal it will protect the fluoro. And since it's a spring, it will still flex without being too rigid. Thoughts?


Offline pikeaddict

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Doesn't that defeat the purpose of using the fluoro ???  I would think that would hinder the action of the bait to some degree.  Also if the fish swallows the hook, I wouldn't be surprised if that spring was completely in its mouth away from the teeth.
I've used 40# fluoro exclusively for 3 years, caught plenty of pike in the 10-16lb range, and have not lost a one to bite offs.  Play them out, keep the tension of the line, don't horse them at the hole, and you should be fine.

Offline IceRaider

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It's to use as much fluoro in your rig as possible yet still protect the areas where it needs it the most. If the spring is placed about 1.5" away from the hook, that should prevent it from hindering the action of the bait.

Offline WildFisherWomanVT

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???? Give it the ol college try and see how it works? IMO less knots and ties the better. One less weak point to snap.  ;D
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Offline adkRoy

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I'm sure both things happen, but I'm wondering 'in most cases', does a break off occur due to an abrasive cutting action of their teeth rubbing against the line? or does the pike thrash with such force that the resistance exceeds the line weight limit and simply snaps the line? Just wondering which it is most of the time. The fact that people say they lose less fish when using steel leaders leads me to believe that it must be the teeth that is causing most break offs.

I tried an experiement once and put steel leaders on half our tip-ups and 30 lb mono on the other half.  Found both had the about same amount of flags for the day but with the steel leaders we never lost a fish and with the mono we lost a couple due to their teeth cutting through the mono. I always run 12 inch steel leaders. 
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Offline deadsmelthead

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I believe most break offs are from knot failure... I know a guy who kept busting off fish with steel leaders, it happened to him on a regular basis, finally i saw how he tied his clinch knot and it was way under tied...

When using fluoro, mono etc etc, you have 3 knots... All it takes is one failure, and before you know it,  the fish as huge it snapped 40lb fluoro or it broke a steel leader it was enormous....

Ive seen 20lb+ pike brought in on 12lb flouro, 30lb mono, 25 lb mono 15 lb flouro,  ive yet to see a pike just rip through any or snap it from sheer brut force...

I have however witnessed more than a few knot failures...


Just personal experience here...... A gaff at the hole makes a world of difference never try and horse a big fish through a hole, just gaff em and be done with it..
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Offline Loudmouth879

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I was using steel leader yesterday and had 1 tipup with 8lb fluoro for perch/eyes and a muskie happened to hit the one with fluoro next thing I know I'm stuck in a hour long battle with a 44" 26.5lb muskie.... hooked perfect in the corner of the mouth. Got lucky the hook wasn't swallowed. But like was previously said if you fight the fish correctly you can land just about any fish. Don't know how the rest of my day would have went because I packed up and went to the taxidermist so can't tell you if the fluoro would have had more flags than the steel. But we always use steel leaders when fishing for toothy critters

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Offline Fishin_Chip

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Anybody can get lucky and land a pike without a steel leader. 

If the line gets into the canine teeth (the triangular, large cutting teeth on the lower jaw), it's over.  Those teeth are so sharp, I have had 30 pound hard mono cut without feeling a thing.  I have seen 80 pound flouro musky leaders bitten through on the strike. 

Winter fish are seldom hooked as deep as they can be in the summer, partly because of the colder water temps, but mostly because the strike is usually perpendicular to the line direction.  What I mean is in the summer, the fish frequently follow the lure, striking from behind the lure.  The speed of the strike often allows the lure to get very deep into the pike's rather large mouth, sometimes even through the gills and out the other side.  I have seen large pike take the lure and a 12" leader and cut the line, all on the strike.  When icefishing, the fish usually hits from the side, the lure very seldom gets very deep.

Even on a deeply hooked fish, you can get lucky.  Sometimes the line will get behind the lip, trapped in the corner of the mouth.  Lip hooked fish can usually be landed.

As a long time pike fishing guide, admittedly all summer time, I have seen tens of thousands of pike caught.  Because we do a lot of sight fishing, I see many of these battles from start to finish.  The only bite guard that won't get bitten through is wire.  Hard mono, flourocarbon, braid, it doesn't matter.  Those teeth will cut through any of them if they get the chance.

No matter what you fish with, there will be a knot involved.  There is no excuse for not knowing a good knot.  There are many that work just fine.

If you don't like leaders, knottable wire is a good alternative.  Anything else is just playing the lottery.  Its a lot like going "all in" in hold'em.  It works every time, until it doesn't.

Enjoy your fishing, it's about more than what comes up through the hole.

Good luck!

Offline mr tip up

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you also have to watch the gill plate they are very sharp like the teeth they will cut through braid mono and flouro no promblem
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Offline lightningz

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I'd be more worried about the gill plate as Mr. Tipup says. When they thrash and roll the gill plate is probably the culprit.

Offline deadsmelthead

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Anybody can get lucky and land a pike without a steel leader. 

If the line gets into the canine teeth (the triangular, large cutting teeth on the lower jaw), it's over.  Those teeth are so sharp, I have had 30 pound hard mono cut without feeling a thing.  I have seen 80 pound flouro musky leaders bitten through on the strike. 

Winter fish are seldom hooked as deep as they can be in the summer, partly because of the colder water temps, but mostly because the strike is usually perpendicular to the line direction.  What I mean is in the summer, the fish frequently follow the lure, striking from behind the lure.  The speed of the strike often allows the lure to get very deep into the pike's rather large mouth, sometimes even through the gills and out the other side.  I have seen large pike take the lure and a 12" leader and cut the line, all on the strike.  When icefishing, the fish usually hits from the side, the lure very seldom gets very deep.

Even on a deeply hooked fish, you can get lucky.  Sometimes the line will get behind the lip, trapped in the corner of the mouth.  Lip hooked fish can usually be landed.

As a long time pike fishing guide, admittedly all summer time, I have seen tens of thousands of pike caught.  Because we do a lot of sight fishing, I see many of these battles from start to finish.  The only bite guard that won't get bitten through is wire.  Hard mono, flourocarbon, braid, it doesn't matter.  Those teeth will cut through any of them if they get the chance.

No matter what you fish with, there will be a knot involved.  There is no excuse for not knowing a good knot.  There are many that work just fine.

If you don't like leaders, knottable wire is a good alternative.  Anything else is just playing the lottery.  Its a lot like going "all in" in hold'em.  It works every time, until it doesn't.

Enjoy your fishing, it's about more than what comes up through the hole.

Good luck!

I get what you are saying as per open water fishing and the pike chasing a bait down, but,  its really no different through the ice, no matter how the bait is taken...... I often put the hammer to fish mid run, spool spinning etc etc etc..... Seems like its a moot point if you ask me.... Open water i use heavy polymer leaders and have yet to have an issue...

My success getting on to bigger pike came when i stopped using steel... I can only offer my experience...

I truly believe the steel/ polymer convo could go on forever and a day... Its obvious both work, committing yourself with faith
to a style of fishing is something that takes time and experience...
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Offline Whopper Stopper

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I truly believe the steel/ polymer convo could go on forever and a day... Its obvious both work, committing yourself with faith
to a style of fishing is something that takes time and experience...

X2

Start  reading the musky boards and you will find thousands of pros and cons for each.

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Offline vt-jig

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my guess would be the that they are cutting the leader. But i read somewhere that a 20lb pike can produce twice its weight in torque, so i guess both are possible.
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Offline IceTroll

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Try this:         http://www.tackledirect.com/malinboanokink.html
Been using the Malin Titanium wire for 10 years now and breaks I can count on one hand. Since this is wire that can be tied, I have had the occassional bad knot have a stress point and break on me. If you tie it right, its rare. This wire is about the same diameter as 12 lb test mono for the 30 lb wire. It also stretches and is extremely difficult to kink. Its kinda spendy when compared to Mono but you cant put a price on a 20 lb Northern snapping your line like its spagetti. Just saying.
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Offline Fishin_Chip

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On the gill plate issue, I am not convinced it is the major problem.  I have had uncomfortable pressure from the gill plate on my thumb while holding a pike in a not quite right fashion, but I have never been cut by one.  The gill plate lays pretty flat against the cheek, so there is very little opportunity for the line to catch against it.  I am not saying it wouldn't cut the line under the right circumstances, but the gill plate is "butter knife" sharp, compared to the teeth being razor sharp.  Throw in all that open mouthed head shaking.....

Plain titanium wire is very effective, but extremely hard on the fish.  If they roll or get tangled in it at all, it marks them up pretty bad.  It's a little hard on the hands as well.  Plastic coated braided wire is the best option for me.

Cheers.

Offline lightningz

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I don't think it is the sharpness of the gill plate is the issue. I think that the fact that it is a harder edge is more of the culprit. Much like the edge of the ice that might cause a point where the line would have undue pressure put onto it. The head thrashing coupled with the weight of the fish probably compounds the situation. There is no doubt that they have sharp teeth, but they are sharp at the point not on the sides.

We have had great success using both titanium and floro leaders and always make them at least 18" long to take in account the teeth, gill plate and the edge of the hole. It seems to me that you have more control while fighting these fish up to the hole, but when they get them in or near the hole itself things can get crazy.

We have also gone to Octopus hooks which almost always find their way to the jaw and thus taking the teeth out of the equation. Coupled with the fact that the Octopus hook is easier to remove makes it a lot easier to get the fish back in the water.

This is just my opinion and has worked for us. We haven't lost a fish once the hookset was made in a long long time, so I have to think that we're doing something right.

Offline esox_xtm

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It's all in the teeth..........

Pike may grow large and make sudden runs or surges, but proper handling can bring fish in that weigh 3 or more times the pound test of the line or leader. My personal best is a 53.3" sturgeon on 6# line and a medium spinning rod. Never weighed it but I'd estimate 35-40#, but they don't have teeth.

I have to disagree with lightningz, pike teeth are sharp on the sides, that's the problem. Walleye teeth are only sharp on the points (like an ice pick) and I'd fish light plastic leader unhesitatingly all day for them. But with pike as a primary target, those teeth are sharp on the sides (just like razor blades) a more cut proof material is required. I use a light uncoated stranded wire, 18-20# for most applications and I don't ever get cut off. I have broken a couple trying to lift fish out out the hole. Once that head is out of water and the fish can shake and thrash, most any material is at risk.

As an experiment, if you have or know someone who has a pike mounted or a jawbone, try this: Take some line, start with a "superline" like Fireline or Power Pro or an equivalent, stretch it nice and tight (like you might be fighting a fish) and rub it down the side of one of those teeth. You should find that the more pressure you apply (stretch wise) the easier it cuts. Maybe it takes a couple of rubs but that's what happens. You can also try it with mono, fluorocarbon, titanium and steel. Again, you should find that titanium and steel are the only truly cut proof options; very heavy fluorocarbon can withstand a lot but will still eventually cut. Mono? Don't even go there.

Now I know lots of folks have good luck fishing "plastic" and that's OK. Many claim to have never been cut off. Might be true. The difference for these folks is in the playing of the fish. Experienced hands do not eliminate the risk, only provide some cushion when fish turn quickly and run. That said, I've been cut off with 25# fluoro and barely felt the fish. Could have been pressure applied by running through the weeds.........

There's additional help for those that target trophies through the ice. I've heard from several taxidermists that big pike they mount caught through the ice usually have comparatively fewer teeth than their summer counterparts. I'd hazard a guess that that massive egg production robs nutrition and something has to give. Since fish teeth are replaceable it makes sense to me. So.........fewer teeth, minimized cut hazard.

Bottom line, there's no substitute for properly playing a fish. If a line breaks (not cut) or a hook straightens or a rod breaks and you still have line on the spool, you broke/straightened it, not the fish. Give 'em line if they need it.......... Try not to get too excited, that works for me most of the time but truly big fish can interesting effects on folks. Steel or titanium can provide some extra protection against cuts but can be overstressed and broken like any line or leader.

Just my opinions (except for the sharp on the sides thing, that's fact) based on my experiences.........us er mileage may vary.

/m
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Offline IceTroll

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On the gill plate issue, I am not convinced it is the major problem.  I have had uncomfortable pressure from the gill plate on my thumb while holding a pike in a not quite right fashion, but I have never been cut by one.  The gill plate lays pretty flat against the cheek, so there is very little opportunity for the line to catch against it.  I am not saying it wouldn't cut the line under the right circumstances, but the gill plate is "butter knife" sharp, compared to the teeth being razor sharp.  Throw in all that open mouthed head shaking.....

Plain titanium wire is very effective, but extremely hard on the fish.  If they roll or get tangled in it at all, it marks them up pretty bad.  It's a little hard on the hands as well.  Plastic coated braided wire is the best option for me.

Cheers.

I have caught hundreds of Pike over 15 lbs and some over 20 lbs. I have never had one roll up into my Titanium leader (which is all of 20"-24" long) and hurt themselves. All of those trophy Pike I have pictures of all over this web site have been released unharmed with nary a Titanium leader mark on their body. Besides, if a fish rolls or tangles in any kind of line or wire its going to "mark them up pretty bad". The Titanium would probably "Cut" them up pretty bad but as stated, I have never had it happen. Just saying.
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Offline lightningz

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 Well to quote the Wisconsin DNR website:

 " The canines (conical, pointed teeth) that ring the wide lower jaw and the short, sharp brushlike teeth that line the roof of the northern"

Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me.
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/fishing/documents/species/northernpike.pdf

I'm not here to argue with anyone as I can only point out the facts. Since most of the comments that we all read here are usually personal opinion (mine included).

 I mentioned the gill plate being a contributor in an earlier post because it is another factor that should be considered. The brushlike teeth on the roof of the fishes mouth should also be considered because of the sheer numbers and the fact that they would have a sawing effect when mono line is dragged across them. We all know that you should check your line after every catch for abrasions and personally I think that is caused by the rooftop teeth. Other than the facts I've quoted the rest is just my opinions and you can take it for what it's worth. I've only been fishing for close to 50 years so I'm a little new to this whole thing.

Offline mr tip up

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i liked the article some good info
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Offline esox_xtm

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Well to quote the Wisconsin DNR website:

 " The canines (conical, pointed teeth) that ring the wide lower jaw and the short, sharp brushlike teeth that line the roof of the northern"

Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me.
http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/fishing/documents/species/northernpike.pdf

I'm not here to argue with anyone as I can only point out the facts. Since most of the comments that we all read here are usually personal opinion (mine included).


I'll wholeheartedly agree with the opinions thing. Everyone has their own and are usually based on what fits into their experiences. As far as my dear WIDNR, most folks here believe they have no idea what's going on......... ;)

That said, I could counterpoint with a quote from the State of Montana website (which, of course fits into my experiences)

"They have large teeth on the side of their mouth, and many many small teeth inside of their mouth........When you fish for northerns, you will need to use a steel leader, (a short piece of steel line) at the end of your line. The pike's sharp teeth will cut easily through most fishing regular fishing line."

http://fwp.mt.gov/education/angler/mayClub/northernPike.html

We could go at this all week, and probably then some. By the end I might even have you believing I'm a French model......... Hey, I can back it up on the Internet! ;D

Seriously, all I'd ask is to go actually check it out for yourself with some line on real teeth. Find a mount (with unlaquered teeth, any kind of finish can coat and dull the edge) or use a fresh jawbone from a recent catch. Rub that line on the sides and see........ That and 7 stitches in an ER some years ago sure couldn't have been made by only a pointy (ice pick) tooth, had to be like a razor.....

No disrespect intended to you or your pool of experiences......... If you care to comment, I've said all I need to and we can move on. Again, like you, not picking a fight, just offering a different viewpoint.

As usual, these opinions are based on my experiences and user mileage may vary...........

/m

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Offline Fishin_Chip

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Way too many close encounters with the aforementioned pike canine teeth for my liking. 

Years ago I got bit pretty good on the back of my hand.  Things healed up, of course, and all was good.  Later that fall after all the swelling and tenderness was gone, I noticed a lump on my knuckle.  I went to the doctor and had a 5/16" long pike tooth surgically removed from my knuckle!  At first glance it looked like a cross between a cat's canine and a shark's tooth.  Long and slim, in a diamond shaped profile, and sharp as a razor!

30 years of guiding pike fishermen here, all I can say is the pike in Saskatchewan have sharp, slicing canine teeth.

I guess I can't speak for other places....

All in good fun!  Cheers!

Offline HUNTnFISHSD

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 Usually teeth. If I have a break off it is at the hole when they spin around and cut my line.

Offline officercalcjc

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Totally the teeth, they are literally like razor blades. Even a 20 incher can bite you off. Wire is basically impossible for them to bite off and is the way to go when fishing murky or heavily stained water. In clear water, #20 fluoro is the way to go and bite offs are very rare if you don't put too much pressure on them.

Offline spudsaway

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Ditto on the buy good material. I hate to admit but I lost the nicest Pike on a cheap Swivel . Wire leader and all my good knots the cheap swivel pulled apart the ring pulled out of the barrel. Now how you going to see that coming ?  I buy good ones only now for the buck or two extra for the package that  lasts me a season.. Lost a fish and I was in a derby And lost me a whole mess of Prize.  All I got a good look at was tail 7 inches wide i'd say. So the answer is the weakest link breaks.. Line , Knots, cheap swivel , hooks that pull straight.  I remember watching I guy play a Salmon in a river he had on 20lb test and was feeling confident. The fish ran so hard his drag melted on his old Mitchel 300 . Smoke pored out of if Pop goes the line . 

Offline thomasthepikehunter

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Its been a long time since I've been broken off. I make sure I put together the most quality leader I can, and the weak link is usually the hook. The hook will usually rip from the mouth before the line breaks. I have never had steel break, and only one bite through with 50# fluorocarbon. Fluoro does sometimes help. Most of the time pike are not line shy. Yesterday was the exeption for me. I had 2 tip ups out in clear water, one steel leader, one fluorocarbon, and everything else was the same. I got 4 hits on fluoro, none on steel. Give it a try, but steel is tried and true. This is the only time I've had fluoro out perform steel.
-Tom

Offline seabast

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It doesn't take much for a small pike to cut thru 12 lbs fluo, if the line end up at the wrong spot it's over. Can't stand pikes while I'm chasing walleyes....

 



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