Not Sure but maybe a small loophole??(BAIT)

[doogie494]

Not sure fellas but i may have found a small loop hole. Please give me all thoughts on this. I live in Vermont, I fish the vermont side of lake champlain. Why cant i buy my bait in Seven day disposal limit of NY.  With the recipricol license im sure Ny'ers are doing it.  Please give me your thoughts.

[whitetail05401]

I was told by a bait dealer that the new rules are only going to get worse and the 1 thing that may change is the 48 hour rule to 5 days maybe. So what people are talking about doing is setting up a live well at home and buying in bulk and only take to the lake what it is you are going to use. that way you are not tossing all the bait on the ice an loosing $$$$. But for your ? I think what will hert for now is the fact your bait is only god for 48 hours. Unless you but it in new york Im not sure but the price of gas why go to new york and back again. seems like more of a waste to me. I dont know.....jim s

[doogie494]

Thank you for your reply. i am sure not everyone will be able to justify going all the way to Ny to get bait, but in the southern part of the lake with bait stores in Ticonderoga and Crown Point some people could easily benefit from it.  People that live sya just south of the Champlain Bridge or close to it have to drive just as far to a bait store in Vermont than going to Crown Point area.  I also have a thought about what you said about people buying bulk bait.  Whouldn't you have to be a licensed dealer to use your bait?  Just thinking you would still have to produce a recipt??

[whitetail05401]

yes you would have to show one but IF the new rules change to five days then that will be stated on the paper and you would have to keep it for the five days. Even now like you said you have to travel to a bait store and if you plan on fishing all weekend then buy all your bait as long as that bait does not go to the ice you can keep it for 48 hours. I would bring it home and only take what it is im going to use then have the rest for the next day....jim s

[doogie494]

OHH, I see what you are saying.  i thought you were talking about cutting out the bait shops all together and  buying from a fish farm.  Sorry about that.  five days would certainly be better than two days.  I or someone i fish with, go to NY about once a week anyways so until they change it this is what i may do for when i am fishing Champlain.

[shrub]

I had the very same questions about the CT river here in VT. The CT is owned by NH you can use a VT or NH license to fish it. There is one setback in paticluar that is technicly in VT but consider NH waters you have to follow all the NH laws but also have to follow the VT bait law.
Plus it is illigel to bring bait accross the state line into VT with out a comercial bait dealer permit.

[doogie494]

Plus it is illigel to bring bait accross the state line into VT with out a comercial bait dealer permit.

Good point, to a point. Illegal to bring bait across state lines..... except the state lines on the water! 

[shrub]

Good pont, to a point. Illegal to bring bait across state lines..... except the state lines on the water! 

true. I would ask a warden to be on the safe side.

[Little Brown Dog]

Doogie,

You can use NY bait on the NY side of Champlain, but only VT bait on the VT side.  The licenses are recriprocal, but the laws still follow the state line (channel).

You wouldn't be able to drive the NY bait back over here to use another day over there either, as that would be importation.

[doogie494]

LBD, I've been waiting for your reply. Can you show me where it says this?  I have found no evidence to support it.  The law says that you must follow the laws of that state but does not say where you have to buy your bait it just says a State approved baitshop which all of NY went through last year.  So as long as i buy my VHS free certified, legal baitfish to use in Vermont,  in NY i do not see any reason why i cant use it. The law states that i cannot drive my bait back from NY on the roads thats ok i will buy my bait in NY and enter the lake from the NY side( with safe ice of course.) Keep in mind that this is all theoretical(sp?).

[Little Brown Dog]

OK, you have to put it all together from a few places, but here is what I come up with.

Page 36 under Lake Champlain Recriprocal Fishing

Caution: Some fishing season dates, length limits, daily
creel limits and other regulations are different in New
York and Vermont. When fishing in Vermont, anglers must
observe Vermont regulations. When fishing in New York,
anglers must follow the regulations that apply in New York.
Be sure to obtain copies of each state’s fishing regulations.

Page 37 Baitfish Use

Anglers must not depart waters of the state with
baitfish in their possession.

Anyone purchasing baitfish must keep and show
upon request a receipt for purchases of baitfish from
a state-approved commercial bait dealer. Purchased
baitfish can only be used on a single waterbody,
and cannot be transported to other waters for use.
Receipts are valid for 48 hours from time and date of
sale. After this, the baitfish may not be used and must
be destroyed and disposed of properly.

The NY bait dealers wouldn't be able to provide you with the VT receipt that you need to use the bait on the VT side of the lake.

[doogie494]

And thats what i am trying to figure out.  You dont need a Vt state fishing license to fish in VT. And depending how you read it, it says you have to have a Recipt from a "STATE" approved, not neccessarily VT.  You know as well as i do that Ny'ers are coming over here with bait they have bought from Norms and other places, these guys gonna be fined because the law is so vague? i hope not.  So we have the right to fish on Ny side of champlain, but the approved bait fish for both states that are disease free and vhs tested do not?  Better start putting up nets around the borders i guess. i have emailed the department to get clarification on this. we'll see if i hear back.

[Little Brown Dog]

You know as well as i do that Ny'ers are coming over here with bait they have bought from Norms and other places, these guys gonna be fined because the law is so vague? 

According to my sources, Yes they will, then the word will get out with those guy's.  Norm's should have a warning posted at the shop, same with the shops in Whitehall & Ti.

NY certification for disease free is a lot more lenient then Vermont's.

[doogie494]

Yes it is, IMO If the license is going to be recipricol than they need to have a common law on both sides.  i think it would be very hard to prosecute anyone with the way the  laws are written now.

[Little Brown Dog]

Only time will tell.  I know that I wouldn't want to waste my time and money fighting a ticket in court.

[Bailbuster]

Doogie, I think that loop might tighten around your neck.I don't think I would want to test that.Everyone reads the rules on this bait deal differently,hopefully they will clean them up  this month so we won't need a lawyer with us when we fish.BB

[doogie494]

Lets Hope so.

[perch pirate]

Heres a good piece from the valley voice.

  The days of heading to a favorite tributary of Lake Champlain to net bait fish for the old “pond box” could be over. if Vermont Fish and Wildlife Department Biologists are successful in their attempts to end the longtime practice of netting wild, native baitfish for sale by bait wholesalers, retailers and private sportspersons.


    Times have changed for fishermen  in Vermont who enjoy using  live bait.


    Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia (VHS) a disease that is primarily spread from fish to fish has resulted in an Emergency Baitfish Rule that is currently in effect here in the state.


    The rule was implemented to prevent the spread of VHS according to the Vermont Fish and Wildlife Department’s web site.


    The reasons for the rule are clearly delineated on the site but it is important to note that the emergency rule implemented to prevent the spread of VHS is expected to expire on February 19, 2008 and that presents some important questions about what happens after that. 


    Beginning in January of 2008, a permanent regulation is expected to be presented to the Vermont Fish and Wildlife Board for consideration.  “As part of this permanent rule adoption process, public input and comment will be received via hearings that will be held around the state,”  according to information posted on the VFWD web site as of Friday, January 8, 2008.


    Bait dealers the Voice has contacted are less than enthusiastic about the emergency rule or the fact that it could become a permanent law.


    Having to purchase “certified bait fish,” from a certified source, approved by VFWD and enforced by Vermont Game Wardens is a process  that has not been popular with many of  them.  “The certified bait is expensive and it is not as good as native bait for catching fish,” one dealer told us.   


    Many bait shop owners question the  current scientific evidence that  Vermont waters are now or will be effected by the disease.


    Netting wild baitfish for sale at their businesses from  waters they have utilized for generations here in Vermont has been a way of life.  They  depend on the income generated from selling the bait.


    The emergency rule which has been in effect since this past fall has stopped them from netting or purchasing bait that the State has not recognized as “certified.”


    Certified baitfish are not wild bait fish but raised commercially in a controlled setting under a strict protocol to guard against being infected by viruses that can threaten the life of the fish.


    To monitor the Emergency Rule process, bait dealers are required to have bait customers sign a purchase order for the bait they buy.  They  (the fishermen), relieve a copy showing that they are fishing with certified bait in an approved body of water. 


    The bait can only be fished in waters that the shop is authorized to sell for and the unused bait must be disposed of and not returned to the water they are fishing in or any other waters when the fisherman is finished with it. 


    There is a 48 hour window to use the purchased “certified bait.”  If for example you take a dozen or so golden shiners on the ice to fish for pike.  You can not bring them off the ice alive when you are done fishing to be used the next day.  They must be disposed of.  However if you left some of the live golden shiner “certified bait” in a bucket in your vehicle and did not bring them on the ice, it is our understanding from talking with a state biologist that the bait left in the car and not brought on the ice in the first place, can be used another day as long as it is used in the 48-hour window you signed for at the bait shop where you originally bought the bait. “The 48 hour window and the signed slip is are important control points in this process,” State Fish and Wildlife Fish Health Biologist Tom Jones explained to the Voice. “After 48-hours all the bait has to be disposed of.”


    We asked Jones why the emergency rule was imposed.


    He explained that VHS has spread quickly throughout  the Great Lakes and into several inland waters in some Great Lakes states.  In every case,  the existence of the virus was not detected until fish began to die in large numbers.  The insidious nature of the virus is what makes it such a  potential threat. 


    Scientific evidence suggests that the virus is likely to be present in a body of water for one or more years before causing noticeable fish kills.


    Biologists also believe that by controlling all fish movement at this time they can more accurately eliminate the risk of spreading VHS in Vermont waters.


    As to what happens after the Emergency Rule runs its 125 day course on February 19, 2008?


    The wheels have been set in motion for a permanent rule adoption process.  The process will include public input and comment.  These informational hearings will begin within the month according to VFWD Chief Warden, Colonel Robert Brooks.


    When asked if Vermont bait dealers  could legally sell non certified baitfish in their shops after the emergency rule ends on Tuesday, February 19th of this year, Colonel Brooks told The Voice, “technically they can.”  His department however discourages the practice citing the increased risks involved in spreading Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia (VHS) through the sale of wild non-State Certified  bait fish.


    Another factor is the ability to harvest bait this time of year.  Ice and  ice cold water presents a significant safety issue for those seeking to harvest bait after freez-up occurs .  It doen’t  mean however that it can’t be done by those who know how to do it.   


    In 2008, Vermont Fish and Wildlife officials will be significantly increasing its VHS surveillance program state-wide.


    The Emergency Baitfish Rule could become The Baitfish Law in 2008. 


    Opponents of the measure are planning to organize and attend the public hearings in their area to lobby against a permanent rule and sources tell the Voice that petitions are already being circulated and signed by those who do not want to see these bait restrictions made into a permanent law. 


    The Voice will publish the public hearing dates and times and post them on our web site as we  receive them.


    For complete details on the VHS Emergency Baitfish Rule you can find them at: www.vtfishandwildlife. com 

 

[perch pirate]

The rule makes no sense! If we allow it to become law we will ever be ashamed at what our fathers and grandfathers taught us about this lake. I cannot believe live bait and its use will bring a down fall to the fishery we all love. If that were the case we would have seen it years ago. Guys I can only tell you this. My grandfather used to say "don't pee down my leg and tell me it’s raining boy cause I know the difference". I say the same to you. Live bait isn't what’s killing the fish here you know it and so don't I. Excuse me if I offend anyone but these college educated idiots who decide our future as fisherman on this lake probably never held a fish pole in their life! Are we ready to stand by and take their word over what we know through generations of learning from our families of fishing Champlain? Join them if you want to. Not me! As always just my opinion

[perch pirate]

Theres stenght in numbers guys. I am willing to throw the gauntlet out. I oppose this law and I am willing to take it to the state house. We can make a difference and stand up to those who wish to take our heritage away. With that said I make my stand. hope you join me by adding your name to the list.

Mitchell S Oldenburg. Shoreham Vermont.

[whitetail05401]

what we say and do is not going to make a diffrence the laws are already made and they know it. they will sit there and pretend to care about what it is we have to say but really we know better. I do agree with what you said it really sucks that someone that has never fished or fish as much as we do makeing the rule for us....jim s

[JCaughtem]

Not sure fellas but i may have found a small loop hole. Please give me all thoughts on this. I live in Vermont, I fish the vermont side of lake champlain. Why cant i buy my bait in Seven day disposal limit of NY.  With the recipricol license im sure Ny'ers are doing it.  Please give me your thoughts.

I would be all over that.

[TRT]

Hey Perch Pirate, what if the scientists are right ?  Do we risk ruining fisheries like Willoughby,
 Champlain, Seymour, Magog, Averill etc because we are stubborn foools? 

I will forego the additional expense an abide by the law, thats my 2 cents...

[Fish Farmer]

Shawn Good, biologist and AVID FISHERMAN

Tom Jones, fish health biologist and AVID FISHERMAN

These are just a couple who are supporting this proposition.

I'm just a lowly state fish culturist and AVID FISHERMAN.

MY LIVELYHOOD REVOLVES AROUND THIS AS WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My career as well as several others WANTS to see fish in YOUR CREEL!

IF this VHS crap makes it into VT and potentially into our waters it will change fishing in ways you haven't even thought of yet.

OK, you guys want lake trout stocked INLAND? Find a source? Salisbury Fish Culture Station,  three lots, 500 fish, 1200 fish, and another 1200 fish strong. These are "Champlain" stock, hope we don't get VHS on station  because these fish would get BURIED, as well as every other unique broodstock on station. That means we would have to start from scratch with other strains, which could take 6 years or so to develop since  trout like lakers take a long time to mature. Well, we can't got to NY to get broodstock/eggs, those borders are closed. I guess we could go to inland sources like Willougbly, etc and collect eggs, provided they don't have VHS. Perhaps Maine? Canada?

I think this is much like playing Russian roulette.

As for the comment of live bait taking down a lake, one word ALEWIVES, sure they make a great bait in the Great Lakes, but they have their problems as well and won't really see their affect for a few years here.

I can't wait until the spiny water flea shows up, that will be fun pulling off of downrigger lines, yay!

[VERMONSTER]

   the laws are there to protect our fisheries and instead of b***hing about how it hurts so bad why dont we think about the future and what we could lose if the biologist are right. do any of you guys have children or grandchildren? What is best for them and do we have the right to gamble with their fishing futures because its
 inconvenient for us. I dont like it any more than the next guy but this is why we have scientist and fisheries
  biologist. Let the people who are qualified make the decisions. Not a bunch of pissed off whiners who only
  care about right now. This is just my opinion and if you choose to take it personally I do not apoligize and get
 over it.  Its not about you!!! I pay for my gas and bait just like the rest.

[4cator]

Geez, and I thought the wyoming game and fish were ignorant to live bait rules, it sux to be youse guys

[doogie494]

First of all, I have very little faith in our Fish and wildlife officers. Seen to many things that they havent done to protect the Fish and Wildlife. There are 9 different strains of this virus with 3 of them coming from farmed fish across the pond. Then it showed up off the Atlantic Coast and worked its way through the St. Lawrence to the Great Lakes, and seeings how we are connected to the St. Lawrence, it's only a matter of time before it is in Lake Champlain.  It is in only Three inland lakes that they know about, Budd Lake in Center Michigan, Conesus Lake and Lake Skaneateles in Ny.  Vermonster, I don't think anybody cares about having to buy gas and bait, if you want to sit there and let someone decide for you what is best though that is fine and up to you, I will fight for you but i dont want to hear any b***hing when they say that you cant drill a hole with a two-stroke auger cause its bad for the enviroment(just using that for an example, don't take it personally).  When was the last time any of you caught a Walleye in Southern Lake Champlain? I never have!! I heard it used to be great fishing for them, Hmm, I wonder what happened to them?  How many Walleye fry does Vermont introduce to Lake Champlain?(Thats for you Fish Farmer).  Anyone who wants some reading look at this: http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/viral_hemorrhagic_septicemia.pdf

Nobody wants to destory what we have, but we need to stand to make sure They get it right.  This post was all about me bringing Bait across the VT/NY border on Lake Champlain. Do the fish know where the boundry line is? I don't think so. I agree with having our fish that is bought, tested.  But i think it is rediculous for our bait stores not to be able to catch native bait to sell to people that fish the lake it came from.  I for one will be attending the Meeting i strongly suggest that you all do a little research to make sure we are not getting screwed over.  JMO

[putback]

VT legislature is back in session. Here's what is certain. They will run over time, they will get paid, they will get re-elected, they will SOLVE no problems only punt forward, we will pay more and loose more, period. When this issue cools down I expect them to move on to motorized vehicles and petroleum products on ice. Then who knows, maybe a "set annually" time slot to ice fish. After all only the state knows when its safe, we're to stupid! The bait law doesn't affect me, I've used hardware only for 4 yrs now. Could be the regs are necessary, the biologist should know, I don't. My point is watch the politicians I've seen the trend for the last 40+ yrs. Pay attention, voice your opinion, join a sportsmans club. These things are incremental, you see the camels nose under the tent you can be sure his a** ain't far behind.

[VERMONSTER]

    Doogie you are right I dont know nearly enough about this subject.  The VT fish and wildlife dept
or whomever is responsible for this temporary law doesnt seem to have put to much of a common
  sense thought process into it. It seems that the more I hear the more confusing it gets. Could you post the time and dates of the meetings? I have been to a couple of meetings on other issues and havent seen
 a whole lot of fishermen there. Not nearly enough!! Thanks for the info.

[doogie494]

    Doogie you are right I dont know nearly enough about this subject.  The VT fish and wildlife dept
or whomever is responsible for this temporary law doesnt seem to have put to much of a common
  sense thought process into it. It seems that the more I hear the more confusing it gets. Could you post the time and dates of the meetings? I have been to a couple of meetings on other issues and havent seen
 a whole lot of fishermen there. Not nearly enough!! Thanks for the info.

LBD has started a thread on when the meetings are and again, I encourage all of you to go.  I have contacted all of my fishing contacts to encourage them to attend. I even have a Bait dealer in nY going.  It is time for all of us to start studying up on this and get ready to become a voice.  Lets make sure these people get it right and preserve the heritage for the next generations.