IceShanty.com's Ice Fishing Community
IceShanty Main => General Ice Fishing Chit Chat => Topic started by: flyhaven on Jan 25, 2022, 08:12 PM
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Do not ice fish alot but would like to be productive when out..Have three spinning outfits,but notice when fishing my tungstens with waxies it is spinning like a helicopter when bringing it up out and assume it is doing that down under.May explain why alot of lookers and no takers..Guess an inline would stop this spinning?
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I think they have helped me.
You will get different opinions, however. Some like them, some not so much, some hate them. Some don't hate them but don't think they help.
My opinion, which is all we all have, is I like them for panfish.
But what do I know?
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Not worth the hassle in my opinion. Couldn't bring myself to use one enough to find fishing with it tolerable. Spin will happen with any reel. The inline may help limit line twist but it cant be eliminated
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meh
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I really like my inline for panfish but I don't think it makes a difference with jig spin. IMO that has more to do with the knot you tie.
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what kind of knot is best?
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I fish a lot with a camera. Reels don't have much effect on lures spinning. What causes spin is JIGGING. A lure will spin when reeling up, and it will spin a little on the fall. When jigging on the up the lure will spin fast, and then slowly unwind on the fall. Repeat, repeat, and now the line and jig are wound up like a rubber band. Jig slowly on the up and then let the lure fall. In line barrel swivels help to a point.
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If panfish is a fish that you only pursue a few times a year then stretching your line and taking the kicks and curls might be all you need. If you fish pannies a lot then go for the in-line
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I loosen my drag periodically and hand pull my line....tighten it back up and start jigging....helps eliminate the twist.
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A swivel will stop the line twist problem although I don’t use them because they generate another mark on my flasher.
I have a bunch of in-lines because I can’t stop buying the next best thing, they work fine, but I prefer a spinning reel in water over 15’ or so. I have Descents and FreeFalls from 13 Fishing, Piscifun ICX’s and Clam Gravity’s. I think the average spinning reel has a better drag than any inline I’ve used but that’s not really a big deal with a panfish rod.
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No.
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Take it from a guy who just bought one, they aren't much use if you are bucket sitting when it's cold. You will need to be inside a shack use it when the weather conditions won't ice up line and reel. They are glorified Schooley's in a way. They aren't bad. I bought one to check it out. Caught fish on it, but I would return it for the $40 bucks for other gear if I had to do it over again.
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Like I've always said, anything NEW and exciting in the ice-world hooks a human first... ::)
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Not to mention some of these in-line reels are way overpriced than spinning reels. No way I'm paying over $25 for a reel that has less ball bearings and moving parts than a spinning. You can flex your Black Bettys all you want I'll stick with my spinning.
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I will break down my dislikes about inlines again.the drags suck,off balance on the handle side,jig still spins in the water,they dont free fall micro jigs worth a crap and still have to strip line off by hand and most are designed where the spool rubs my hand in pencil grip.a cheap shimano sienna 500 is way better.jmo
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I like my inline reels, but if it's cold out they will freeze up worse than a spinning reel. Then again when it's real cold out, I'm usually drilling to find fish and then setting the tent up anyhow.
The drags don't make the same kind of noise that a spinning reel does. So that takes some getting used to as well. Oh - and don't fill the spool too far. Leave about a 1/4" from the edge of the spool empty to avoid over-runs.
I have the 13 fishing Descent that I use for my panfish spoons, but I use the Freefall versions for my tungsten. If you have a buddy who has one, ask if he would let you borrow it for a day just to try it out. They take a little getting used to, but do offer some advantages. I didn't like mine for the first few hours. Hope this helps!
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I will break down my dislikes about inlines again.the drags suck,off balance on the handle side,jig still spins in the water,they dont free fall micro jigs worth a crap and still have to strip line off by hand and most are designed where the spool rubs my hand in pencil grip.a cheap shimano sienna 500 is way better.jmo
This sums up my experiences pretty well. The one alternative I have found is the 13 Fishing Descent. That one feels good in my hand and drops 4mm tungsten pretty well. Drag is OK. For pannies, I like it. No way I'm spending $100 for an inline reel.
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I have several and prefer them, but it's probably because I've always used them on the ice.
I got several Frabill 371 rod and reel combos from Dunham's for $16ish a few years ago. The reels are ok, but I tend to strip line out by hand because I'm impatient! They do well in temps, had mine out in 5° yesterday and it didn't freeze up any worse than my spinning reel.
I have two 13 Fishing Freefalls that I got when Gander had 50% off. I prefer them to the Frabill 371s.
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Take it from a guy who just bought one, they aren't much use if you are bucket sitting when it's cold. You will need to be inside a shack use it when the weather conditions won't ice up line and reel. They are glorified Schooley's in a way. They aren't bad. I bought one to check it out. Caught fish on it, but I would return it for the $40 bucks for other gear if I had to do it over again.
Thanks. Used a old Schooley last year in shallow water. Worked well except for winding in was a pain. Hand over handed some fish to bring them in.
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Pflueger President 20 or 25. Great little reels. I have the 25.
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Pick up a Schooley at a yard sale for a buck this Spring. ;D
(https://i.postimg.cc/14B6msyR/Vintage-Schooley-Red-Wood-Handle-Ice-Fishing-Jig-Pole.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14B6msyR)
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You answered it! If an in-line will help "limit" line twist, it should be better than using a "spinning" reel. I went to in-line reels about five years ago and haven't looked back. Here's the bottom line, buy an in-line and find out for yourself if you like it or not. Hell, they're not that expensive and shouldn't break your bank. I think I paid $30 each for mine! If you find you like the spinning reels more, use them for both summer and winter, if you don't just use them on soft water. Either way your really not out much. If you don't like the in-lines, I'm sure someone will give you half of what you spent on them. So you lose $15, you will find out what kind "you" like! And, if your worried about losing $15, you probably can't afford much of the other equipment you spend on the sport.
Meh they're trash I was attempting to be friendly. It's 6 twists vs 8 twists. The shortcomings outweigh the small benefit and those who enjoy them seem to have convinced themselves that so they don't feel like they've wasted their money. Snitch rods are garbage btw
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As been mentioned, you will get line twist no matter what reel that you use. Having tried a few, the only inline reels that I use are Schooley reels. Before going fishing I will stretch out the first 25' of line. Sometimes, the night before, I will spray some Reel Magic on both my spinning and Schooley reels. On my spinning reels, after about 6 trips, I will replace the first 30' of line. When jigging, that bumb/bump/bump that Dave Genz talks about will prevent your jig from spinning.
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Not worth the hassle in my opinion. Couldn't bring myself to use one enough to find fishing with it tolerable. Spin will happen with any reel. The inline may help limit line twist but it cant be eliminated
Its not just the reel causing twist its mostly the line. Get rid of the mono (terrible line memory) and go to superlines with a 12" flouro leader.
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To me it has its place, that being to be able to drop a small light weight jig down "QUICKLY" to feeding fish, as in school of perch. You just ice one, and while you mess with it, the risk is the remaining ones will move on if nothing there to interest them. sure as hell you don't need a healthy drag fishing pan fish.
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To me it has its place, that being to be able to drop a small light weight jig down "QUICKLY" to feeding fish, as in school of perch. You just ice one, and while you mess with it, the risk is the remaining ones will move on if nothing there to interest them. sure as hell you don't need a healthy drag fishing pan fish.
Use dropper setup, I use it almost exclusively ice fishing for perch and trout.
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I have one of the super cheap frabills that doesn't even have gears, just a crappy drag. I actually love it for shallow water. It definitely helps with jig spin.
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no. never. Buy something that wont cause you pain. ie. a spinning reel.
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I've been using inlines exclusively for several years now. One still has to pull line off a spinning reel the same as an inline, difference is the spool stays stationary on the spinning reel. With the triggers they have on some inlines fishing heavier baits and allowing free spool is much easier than a spinning reel to drop bait down, one hand operation. I do not get line twist on an inline like I did on a spinning reel. I have pulled in cats up to 32", pike to 30", and so with other fish and had no issues with the drag on the inlines I use. I've never had issues with inlines 'freezing up' during extreme cold weather. Only issue I've had is when companies started producing their lines in india, china, and other foreign countries, the crap gave me problems on all my reels.
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Pick up a Schooley at a yard sale for a buck this Spring. ;D
(https://i.postimg.cc/14B6msyR/Vintage-Schooley-Red-Wood-Handle-Ice-Fishing-Jig-Pole.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14B6msyR)
Love it.
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No, don't buy one.
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Those things blow- :P
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I use both styles and I do really like my inlines for the drop and for keeping coils out of the line. There is a learning curve with them though. You have to be careful with the free drop and with slack in the line or you can have line winding outside the spool. I always have my hand resting gently against the spool. The Black Betty 6061 is awesome. Chew on that Slayerfish!
(https://i.postimg.cc/GBMJ8wyG/13-fishing-60612015-lh-black-betty-6061-ice-reel.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GBMJ8wyG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/62grcrzQ/13-fishing-60612015-rh-black-betty-6061-ice-reel-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/62grcrzQ)
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I use both styles and I do really like my inlines for the drop and for keeping coils out of the line. There is a learning curve with them though. You have to be careful with the free drop and with slack in the line or you can have line winding outside the spool. I always have my hand resting gently against the spool. The Black Betty 6061 is awesome. Chew on that Slayerfish!
Bwahahaha! They still blow! ;D
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I would take a inline over a ford...
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Here's proof of concept. See how many times you can wrap a garden hose around your hand to elbow before it's twisted too badly to continue. Now pull out and reel in a hose with a hose reel.
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I would take a inline over a ford...
HEY!!!! :nono:
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I use both styles and I do really like my inlines for the drop and for keeping coils out of the line. There is a learning curve with them though. You have to be careful with the free drop and with slack in the line or you can have line winding outside the spool. I always have my hand resting gently against the spool. The Black Betty 6061 is awesome. Chew on that Slayerfish
Yeah chew on that Mikie :roflmao:
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i been using in-lines for decades. just not the ones your talking about. lol
(https://i.postimg.cc/s13ynwz0/IMG-3402.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/s13ynwz0)
see those bait casters? those are my inlines. along with the schoolies with the tricked drags. ;D
spinning reels need swivels or youll get line twist. that goes for ice season too man. still get some though.
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I guess I have to differ with you on this issue. I would like to know if there is "ANY" reel on the market where the line doesn't freeze up, while sitting on a bucket? I sit on one all the time outside and yes, the line freezes up. But I simply reach down and strip the ice off of the line. Just like I do with the spinning reel I use for walleye fishing. I guess if you don't like in-line reels that is up to the user. However, please don't give some bull-ch _ _ reason why you don't like em. Especially when "all" line freezes up when ice fishing, if you're sitting out in the elements!
Inline reels stink your reasons are bullchit for liking them if mine are for thinking they stink. I can use my schooley or spinning reels out in elements much easier that’s all. To each their own they stink for my use. wanna buy one I’ll give ya a deal?
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Like I've always said, anything NEW and exciting in the ice-world hooks a human first... ::)
Mine is 'Wow that will catch a limit or two of fishermen" as I walk past the fishing Isle at a sports store or large box store. My other is "it can not catch fish if you can not catch the fisherman first."
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I use both in-line and spinning. Usually jigging with the Eagle Claw in-line on an HT Ice Blues ultra light. Set a deadstick with a Sienna 500. Each has pros and cons, personal preference.
But will never buy a Ford, that is all that comes into the shop for repair. Will keep driving my Chevy and Jeep.
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Here's proof of concept. See how many times you can wrap a garden hose around your hand to elbow before it's twisted too badly to continue. Now pull out and reel in a hose with a hose reel.
If you're wrapping a hose from hand to elbow, you're doing it wrong. Big loops on the ground prevent twisting. Its the same technique for electrical cords.
As for $75 inline reels. Just buy a $5 schooley rod and go back to 1975.
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If you're wrapping a hose from hand to elbow, you're doing it wrong. Big loops on the ground prevent twisting. Its the same technique for electrical cords.
As for $75 inline reels. Just buy a $5 schooley rod and go back to 1975.
I actually just bought a Schooley for this season for nostalgia's sake, and have ended up catching most of my fish this winter so far on it :roflmao:
Well worth the $10.99 it set me back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/06BkBrtV/IMG-20220126-090525.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/06BkBrtV)
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Damn schooley for 10$.come get a few.3$ with rod lol.i like them on long rods while hole hopping in shallow water.dont like hand lining or reeling with them.great for lifting and plucking fish in shallow water.
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Damn schooly for 10$.come get a few.3$ with rod lol
My son ended up liking mine, so I bought another one for him ;D
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I actually just bought a Schooley for this season for nostalgia's sake, and have ended up catching most of my fish this winter so far on it :roflmao:
Well worth the $10.99 it set me back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/06BkBrtV/IMG-20220126-090525.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/06BkBrtV)
Just think about how many more fish you could have caught with a $75 inline reel.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/Lgj7K6Sd/18jrlt.gif) (https://postimg.cc/Lgj7K6Sd)
I generally fish over 3-10 feet of water.
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River scum
May I ask how you trick out the schooley drag
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I actually just bought a Schooley for this season for nostalgia's sake, and have ended up catching most of my fish this winter so far on it :roflmao:
Well worth the $10.99 it set me back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/06BkBrtV/IMG-20220126-090525.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/06BkBrtV)
Whoa! How long did it take ya to fight that monster in??? Did ya burn yer drag up?? ;D
Actually, that's what I get stealing my bait all day long sometimes..... :%$#!:
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Whoa! How long did it take ya to fight that monster in??? Did ya burn yer drag up?? ;D
Actually, that's what I get stealing my bait all day long sometimes..... :%$#!:
:roflmao:
While I do love it, I have learned pretty quickly that while fantastic for panfish, if something bigger whacks my bait on it, it's probably not coming up the hole. I've lost a couple nicer fish to bent hooks or snapped line so far, because I'm just running 4# mono on it.
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Everyone knows ya do this then, Snitch..."HEY! You fish! Get up here!!" :woot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LnW4B15J/ice-fishing.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LnW4B15J)
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Nobody still uses the pin on schooley reels anymore.
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It is bullchit if you think line on an inline will freeze worse than line on a spinning reel. Line freeze happens on "all" line, no matter what kind of reel it is on! I used Schooley's for fifty years, so I would think I know a little about them. After those fifty years, I changed to the Snitch. I must have had a good reason. And I believe I said that I too use spinning reels, for walleye fishing both through the ice and on soft water! "I" just prefer my cheap inline reels for gill and speck fishing. Yes, I pay a little more for the rod and reels, approximately $50. But, I'm sure you have heard the "OLD" saying, "You get what you pay for"! I suppose there must be a reason for that saying, as well! If you want to use a Schooley have fun! I gave valid reasons why I thought your comment was bull, if you have a valid reason why in-lines aren't as good as spinning reels, I'd love to hear them. But saying that line twist is not less for in-lines or that the line freezes more on them, is just not true! And, how it is easier to use a Schooley than it is an in-line. You still have to pull the line off the reel. The reel and line are still exposed to the elements. But, when I use my in-line, I don't have to pull a pin to let line out and put it back in to stop the line where I want it! To me that is harder not easier. Just another reason why your comments are bull! Own it.
An inline reel becomes ineffective and useless when the line freezes bottom line. Spend you all your big money on your rod and reel I don't give a hoot, nor do I care to continue the banter sir. Enjoy your fishing with your inline reels and also your unhappiness towards others opinions.
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I don't even use the pin, not fishing anywhere deep enough to need it.
I just try to to let it run on the drag a bit, then take up line when it slows down. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Mostly it's getting them over to the hole under the ice where I've lost them so far. Bent out a hook on a nice catfish last week, and broke the line on a fair bass a couple days ago.
That's just the game you play with a free spool, so I figure losing some nicer fish comes with the territory 🤷♂️ As a whole, I still love the thing, because about 90% of my fish in the winter are bluegills.
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River scum
May I ask how you trick out the schooley drag
the short answer is play with different plastic washers springs and oil or wax to get what you want. most cheap ones have a very jerky drag that you can get rid of. plastic bread bag clips or clamshell plastic materials good to play with. i have thought about ball bearings but haven got that intense yet. lol
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never used the pin. just how many arm pulls or how many cranks off bottom. pre flasher days of course.
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Just bought my first inline phlueger president, after a couple hours of fishing the reel overspooled on the drop and tangled behind the spool. I will try it once more but went back to spinning reel for the rest of the day. One more try will tell if I like it.
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I enjoy other's opinion when it is useful information! But, if you think that line on an in-line freezes any more than line on "ANY" other kind of reel, your wrong! Wrong is Wrong, like I said own it!!! It is a matter of fact, when ice fishing outside, when it's cold, the line will freeze from the tip of you rod and work its way toward the hole. You simply reach down and remove it. It is like that no matter what kind of reel you use. I suppose next you'll try and tell everyone that the guides on your pole freeze less while using a spinning reel? Facts are facts and if you can't understand that, then you're simply a Moran. And I don't have time for Moran's. Like I said, if you want to give facts, I'm all ears! The only opinions I'm unhappy with are those that are lies, not those that disagree with what I happen to believe. Is that clear enough for you?
Clear as mud sir. You think I'm a moran? because I don't have the same opinion as you and you know everything and everything you think is "how it is". This will be my last post on this thread no need to reply sir. As stated...enjoy your fishing you are the best.
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I got one to see what it was all about..it's fun but I always go back to my spinning reels
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never used the pin. just how many arm pulls or how many cranks off bottom. pre flasher days of course.
That's how I do it, too. Each pull inside the fish house is about 18" of line down, and each full crank is about 8" up with the line I'm running on mine.
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This topic got heated quick...
I'm about 50/50 between inlines and spinning. I prefer inlines on my UL setups and spinning on my mediums. I find the spinning reels have a better drag on medium to heavy settings, but for UL setups the inlines do fine. All of my inlines are less than $30, the eagle claw, frabill 371 and some cheaper 13 fishing ones.
I just pulled up a 26" walleye that got pectoral fin hooked on a 13 fishing CGi with 2lb fluro. Drag worked fine. I had it set light enough that I could continuously reel to keep constant tension. Can't do that on a spinning reel without massive line twist.
All of my inlines will drop a 3mm tungsten no problem, better than any of my spinning reels. There also is less line memory vs the smaller spool of the spinning reels.
At the end of the day, do what works for you. The cheap inlines work great for my UL setups, but that's just me. I'd say its worth trying one to see if you like it.
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Boy, if someone wants to use a Schooley, or a spinning reel, or a Black Betty....or an old braided line 60's baitcaster on a sawed off Shakespeare rod, so what? Whatever works for ya. Main goal is to get fish however ya can! :icefish:
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Thanks for an informative and entertaining thread. I have used 500 series Shimanos, Eagle Claw inlines, Schoolies. 2 pegs on the handle,
and Inuit style - 2 sticks. (Yeah, I shoot a muzzle loader) All of them work when they work and stink when they don't. I will admit that
most of my rigs have small bobbers for strike indicators. I rig for two situations. I use tiny bobbers or just a jig if the water is less than 8' -
slightly larger floats or a tiny swedish pimple with the treble replaced by a small leader and a size 10 hook if the water is deeper. I seldom
fish deeper than 15'. I catch most of my fish on the schoolie reels on blue ice rods. Most of my poles are rigged with them. I find that the
larger spool produces less line twist and spinning. True, they really have no drags, but 99% of my fishing is for pannies and a drag is
not necessary. Not mentioned anywhere is how much the reels weigh. My shallow water rigs weigh less than 1 ounce...
fish on,
rivereddy
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If you're wrapping a hose from hand to elbow, you're doing it wrong. Big loops on the ground prevent twisting. Its the same technique for electrical cords.
As for $75 inline reels. Just buy a $5 schooley rod and go back to 1975.
Do you really think this thread is about garden hoses? I said proof of concept. And I proved it. This site is about sharing ideas to help fellow fishermen. It seems to have turned into a "defend my personal biases at all costs" forum or a "bragging about being a cheapskate" forum. Personal attacks over choice of reels? What good is any of this? Everyone has a different budget to fund their hobby. This kind of unproductive bickering without facts to back up arguments is wasted time.
I use an Okuma SLV 2/3 fly reel as inline reel when fishing horizontal jigs in water under 20'. The reason for this choice is a far superior drag to any purpose built in-line ice reel. It comes at the cost of having to strip line to deploy my jig. When stripped off the reel with a light drag my Blackbird Phantom 3.3# line is straight with ZERO coils, no matter how light the jig is. I have instant direct contact without waiting for spring-like line coils to straighten. Because of the revolving spool the jigs don't spin. The line is terminated with a Mustad 77145 fly snap in #2 or #3. There is a Spro size 10 35lb micro Power Swivel tied inline 18" above the snap to combat line twist incurred from jigging and reeling in fish.
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Ha, I always kind of wondered how a small fly reel would work for ice fishing, and now I know ;D
I may have to give one a try someday.
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There is a Spro size 10 35lb micro Power Swivel tied inline 18" above the snap to combat line twist incurred from jigging and reeling in fish.
this is the reel protip, pun intended. Tiny swivels make twist very manageable. I also like that I can change out leader material really quick, it's easier to tie a length of line to a swivel than to do a uni knot outside with cold hands imo.
I have almost no line twist issues with a swivel and an inline reel. and minimal issues with a spinning reel and the swivel
I personally like the in-lines for reduced line coiling and twist, but they are a pain to use if you have light jigs and most don't free-fall very well
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No, I think you're a Moran because you think people will believe whatever you say. And you don't like it when someone disputes it! Does anyone else on here think I'm wrong about line freezing quicker on an in-line reel. If so, I'd like to hear the justification? Lake water will freeze on any line out in the cold, won't it? Just wondering. Maybe I'm all wrong, if so, I'd like to know it from someone other than this guy? And believe me, I'll apologize. I have certainly been wrong before and really don't mind apologizing! While I'm at it, I'll apologize to anyone I offended, that was not my intent. My intent was to call someone out for giving false information. Again, I could care less what anyone else uses to catch fish, like stated above, it's all about putting fish on the ice. I just prefer in-lines vs spinning reels or Schooley's, for that matter. A lot of fish has been caught off of both, so obviously they work!
Dang, how many threads are you going to foul up and derail? Move on, please.
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Has it even been proven that fish do not bite a spinning jig?mine spins most of the time and i still bring home my fair share.fish bite mepps spinners too.
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Seems like aggressive fish will eat a jig spinning or not. When the bite is slow a motionless presentation does the trick lots of times. This is just from under water camera observation.
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Ive found the number one reason for line twist and jig spin on any reel is guys reeling in against the drag.let the fish run and stop then reel in.i see it all the time out fishing.
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No, I think you're a Moran because you think people will believe whatever you say. And you don't like it when someone disputes it! Does anyone else on here think I'm wrong about line freezing quicker on an in-line reel. If so, I'd like to hear the justification? Lake water will freeze on any line out in the cold, won't it? Just wondering. Maybe I'm all wrong, if so, I'd like to know it from someone other than this guy? And believe me, I'll apologize. I have certainly been wrong before and really don't mind apologizing! While I'm at it, I'll apologize to anyone I offended, that was not my intent. My intent was to call someone out for giving false information. Again, I could care less what anyone else uses to catch fish, like stated above, it's all about putting fish on the ice. I just prefer in-lines vs spinning reels or Schooley's, for that matter. A lot of fish has been caught off of both, so obviously they work!
I'm quite certain you don't want my opinion but Mumbleseed is right... Spinning reels shed water better than inlines, the bail winging around sheds more water from the line guide bearing than in inline can shed just spooling the line right onto the drum... I use my inlines in the shack but hole hopping I use spinning gear...
This will be my only post on the subject because frankly I find it too tedious to argue with you... Good luck and be safe or whatever it is you usually say.
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Reeling against the drag only twists line on fixed spool reels. IE: spinning or spincast reels. You can reel against the drag on a revolving spool reel and never twist line. It just does nothing.
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I guess I have "never" seen water flying off a spinning reel, especially at the line guide bearing. 99.9 percent of the water is knocked off by the second eye. But, I'll take your word for it. Like I said, I've never seen it, has anyone else?
When im reeling really really fast to get my lure up to switch it out i have seen some spray coming from the spool of my spinning reel. I dont believe there is a difference in the line freezing quicker with one reel style to another. I think line type matters more than reel type. The difference in water on line has to be miniscule between different reel styles. 95% of my ice buildup is on my line or reel guides (other 5% is along the bail) so i dont see how spray coming from the spool would reduce the areas it freeze. I bought a few inlines and switched back to spinning due to some of the tangle issues i was encountering. That and my level drop never wanted to work with my light panny jigs. Hand feeding line out got annoying.