Author Topic: Ethanol testing  (Read 4979 times)

Offline Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #30 on: Aug 15, 2017, 10:42 PM »
The thread started out how to test or remove ethanol, and went way off kilter when Agronomist tried to sell us on ethanol like a politician. Let the market decide what we want to use, not what is forced upon us. Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it will pull moisture out of the air. Try a little experiment pour a pint of gas in a shallow pan on a humid day and see what happens, this is why you don't want this crap in your fuel tank on your boat or in your unsealed fuel can in the garage. Agronomist I make less money when people take my advise to avoid ethanol in fuel so I have nothing to gain but more satisfied customers. You on the other hand at every opportunity try to sell us on the benefits of ethanol for your financial gain or to brain wash more sheeple. I have no way of testing the quality of fuel any more than you do, so the only way I can guarantee results is to avoid the things I know create trouble.

There are a lot of benefits. Those benefits gain consumers and the environment. It's your choice to choose ignorance towards them. Just because you've had a bad experience with a product and have decided against it doesn't make it a bad product. If you don't want to use it, don't.

Offline erie eyes

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #31 on: Aug 15, 2017, 11:01 PM »
Again a politician answer. In most case consumers dont have a choice, it is forced on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Because it benefits you we are less smart than you. Google ethanol ruined my chainsaw or mower, outboard and see the results. I believe the university of Mich study says the early test results were flawed and pollutants are about the same. We all have our beliefs mine are not steered by money, I have nothing to gain. If I owned a ethanol plant I would have all the answers as it sounds like you have been preaching whats best for us for some time (experienced).

Offline Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #32 on: Aug 16, 2017, 12:09 AM »
Again a politician answer. In most case consumers dont have a choice, it is forced on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Because it benefits you we are less smart than you. Google ethanol ruined my chainsaw or mower, outboard and see the results. I believe the university of Mich study says the early test results were flawed and pollutants are about the same. We all have our beliefs mine are not steered by money, I have nothing to gain. If I owned a ethanol plant I would have all the answers as it sounds like you have been preaching whats best for us for some time (experienced).

How is it "forced" on people. Must be different in your area. Just about every gas station in my area has non ethanol fuel avalible for the consumers. I don't understand where you came up with the theory that because I support ethanol and the many benefits it has brought to our nation that it makes you less intelligent then myself. If you took my attempts to try and further education about ethanol in that way, then you took it the wrong way.

I haven't disagreed that when people use the product wrong that issues can happen. Education on using the product can pretty much eliminate issues. I don't have an ethanol plant. I do tend to have a lot of truthful non bias factual data that I've been given to show many of the benefits of ethanol. Do I know it all...no.  Nor do I know what's best for you. I would however recommend you use non ethanol fuel because it seems to difficult for you to handle using it correctly.

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #33 on: Aug 16, 2017, 12:12 AM »
Wow. This topic is always a touchy one. From my perspective I see lots of ethanol misinformation and band wagon drum beating. It's funny because everyone of you that have had "motors ruined by ethanol" I have had no such experiences in 30 years.

Erie is right. Where I live we have no choice. It has been forced upon us. I do find ethanol preferable to the MBTE they started with here in SE WI.

Sure, we can get "premium" non-E most places but my big outboard does not do well with higher octane fuel. It runs too cool and THAT gums things up. I have had ZERO trouble with ANY of my small motors and ethanol (regular 87): two mowers, weed whacker, snowblower, two chainsaws and two rototillers. I believe its: A.) I always use a fuel additive (I have had good results with Seafoam, Stabil, Stabil marine, Stabil 360 and Startron to name a few) and B.) I never use old gas. If I don't empty my big cans every month the balance gets poured into something that can take it and use it; truck, car, tractor and it gets burned up. Problem solved. I think it's silly to buy premium gas for a small motor just to get away from ethanol.

Ethanol is proven to be hard on rubber that comes in contact with it. Most late model stuff is made with ethanol resistant fuel lines etc. but older stuff can suffer that degradation with constant use and no maintenance. Take my 1994 120hp Johnny for example. I bought it in 2004 and when the OIL PUMP needed maintenance in 2010 I took the liberty of replacing the original fuel line with E-resistant line before I had issues. I also let ALL of my small motors sit off season with at least a half, if not full tank of E-gas. Season rolls around, pour it out and start with fresh. This keeps carb seals/gaskets from drying out. Sometimes I'll try and start 'em just to see if they will. Most of the time it's surprisingly easy.

I'm no politician. I'm just a regular guy that doesn't have ethanol issues. I must be blessed. Or maybe I've just figured out how to deal with it before something "gets wrecked".

It's not hard guys. Agronomist, I'm in your camp on this one. I refused to be the parrot and buy into the "I don't want it so it's got to be bad" deal.

Besides, I really don't have a choice but to make it work. A little common sense goes a long way. I keep waiting for something bad to happen to one of my little motors. It's been 30 years of ethanol and I ain't gettin' any younger. Maybe not in my lifetime...
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Offline backwoodswalker

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #34 on: Aug 16, 2017, 02:22 PM »
My 2 cents. I have been a mechanic for 41 years. Worked on engines as small as cox 049 and ad big as v12 cat diesels. In that time I have seen what ethanol does to ANY carbureted engine. It ruins the entire fuel system. Anything rubber gets ate. Tygon gets brittle. Fuel pumps are corroded and ruined. Fuel consumption goes up. Power goes down. In fuel injected engines it is o.k except for less power and less mileage.  This crap of non ethanol costing more is a huge rippoff. Ethanol is ADDED to refined fuel. Why charge more when you get less? Because you are getting 10% or more gasoline. All of our newer small engines at the shop come with a warning. DO NOT USE ETHANOL FUEL. Some will even void warrantee
 There is NO good effects from ethanol. No not even in whiskey or whatever liquor.  Not here to argue with anyone. Just to give a little advice. Don't use ethanol fuel in anything with a carburetor.  Pay the little extra for ethanol free. And in small motors or 2 strokes it does not need to be premium. Compression is low enough so regular will be fine.   Steve

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #35 on: Aug 16, 2017, 07:09 PM »
But that's the issue Steve, in many areas (think the highly industrialized locales surrounding the Great Lakes) it has been Federally mandated to use RFG (Reformulated Gas). The cost is (again) dictated by the Federales. The only non-RFG choice is to pay a premium price for unnecessary (in most cases) premium fuel. It's been that way 'round here since the mid 70's. All in the name of mitigating CO2 pollution.

As far as fuel "additives", every refiner/company has their pet brew of "detergents and cleaners" so you will never get "just gas".

But you really got to the deal. Do your PMs and you should never have issues with ethanol. Is that more labor intensive? Yep. More costly? Definitely yep. Totally out of control and unmanageable? Sorry Champ, not for this cat....

Face it, how much do people neglect their stuff (even on non-ethanol, c'mon man, you've seen it) and depend on it to run and (by the grace of the small motor gods and guys like you) it does. Ethanol is the wrench in the works but not the demon. It can be well managed if you hold up your end of the log.

As far as mileage and power? There's a LOT more to it than that. It is FAR more dependent on the total fuel formulation than just the presence of ethanol or not. I always run 87 ethanol (rarely, rarely have a non-premium choice) in the truck where ever I go. Formulations in the north part of the state get me another 2 (sometimes 3) mpg with the same kind of driving. I've always called "Up North" gas "Rocket Fuel" because often it seems like just that. Never forget that fuel is a fluid recipe (pun intended) based on refiner and region and can vary widely even within an easily travellable geographic region.

Better look for the waders..... it gets deeper.  :whistle:

Spoiler alert: I'll call the movement to make ethanol "evil" a ploy of the petroleum industry to regain what they have lost due to reformulation. I'm not much into conspiracy theory but this (to me) is very believable.

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Offline erie eyes

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #36 on: Aug 16, 2017, 09:17 PM »
Amen Backwoods, AAI and Esox you guys have figured out how to make it work for youselves, Good for you. But millions of engines tell a different story of ethanol effects. could we avoid some or most of them, probably with enough effort, But do most of us have time or knowledge to stop it, no. Do we auger all our holes with hand augers? Hell no: path of least resistance add power be it gas or electric. Esox you spoke of your older outboard not running on high test fuel. do you realize when you mix oil with gas you lower the octane rating of the fuel and the first outboard made to use ethanol was not brought to market until 2005, read the following link, https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/infographic-411-ethanol-fuel-and-ethanol-treatment. Even though I dont recommend a stabilizer in all cases, for some it is an absolute must. Now look up phase separation and the list goes on and on. Just like most debates they are endless, Backwoods and I both see the effects every day and if you can use ethanol so be it but for a strong economy and market place give us a choice even if higher price I will take ethanol free for less babysitting. My drum is broke you guys can beat yours forever, I have no dog in the fight. When the history is written on ethanol it will show to have been bad for even the farmers also.

Offline Idahogator

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #37 on: Aug 16, 2017, 11:17 PM »
And that history began more than a few years ago.    :woot: :roflmao: ;)2


                 

                 
      

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #38 on: Aug 17, 2017, 06:47 AM »
Just for the record, if I had a choice, I'd rather drink corn alcohol than have to burn it.... ;)2
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Offline matzilla

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #39 on: Aug 17, 2017, 09:58 PM »
You always have a choice...you can buy non-ethanol gas and have it delivered to your door.

Most denatured alcohol has bitrex added - it has no impact on engines if you were to use bitrex denatured alcohol as a fuel

The TTB controls denaturing standards and nearly all other alcohol standards in the US
Fuel alcohol shipped direct from an ethanol plant to a gasoline facility does not need to be denatured. It is usually about 185-190 proof ethanol if I remember correctly. The remainder of the solution is typically other fermentation hydrocarbons and 1-2% water. This is high grade single pass distilled. Anything over 190 proof is multi pass or multi processed near anhydrous

the model t was designed to run on ethanol

Engines tailored to run on ethanol make more power than those using gasoline

Ethanol is required for synthetic rubber production - synthetic rubbers do not harden when exposed to ethanol - cheaply produced natural rubber doesn't like ethanol




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Offline Curley

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #40 on: Sep 05, 2017, 10:37 AM »
For years I would keep a gallon of 2 cycle for the season. Now it's just not worth it. the stuff goes stale in no time flat. It will run like crap after a month or so. Trll me. If E is so dam good then why is it not allowed by law to be used in aviation fuel. And here on the Ct. we can not get e free at the pump.

Offline Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #41 on: Sep 05, 2017, 02:28 PM »
For years I would keep a gallon of 2 cycle for the season. Now it's just not worth it. the stuff goes stale in no time flat. It will run like crap after a month or so. Trll me. If E is so dam good then why is it not allowed by law to be used in aviation fuel. And here on the Ct. we can not get e free at the pump.

Ethanol is used in aviation fuel. It hasn't been pushed has hard, and a lot of aircraft are older that need upgrades to safely use it. The technology is avalible, and will more then likely replace the lead additive.

http://www.theenergycollective.com/jemiller_ep/235571/draft-why-doesn-t-epa-replace-leaded-aviation-gasoline-renewable-ethanol

Offline backwoodswalker

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #42 on: Sep 08, 2017, 08:08 AM »
Talked to the mechanics at k.I sawyer airport.  Asked about ethanol in av gas. Answer was "NO". Up here with our extreme cold winters it won't work. Ethanol attracts water. Result frozen fuel systems. That is from mechanics who work on them. Every winter I see vehicles towed in from a no start or died going down the road. These get pushed in and put up on hoist. 90% of the time its a frozen fuel filter. A lot of vehicles have filter in tank (very stupid idea) they sit in shop overnight to thaw out. A bottle of dry gas usually does the trick. Maybe they are trying ethanol in av gas. Seems like quite a few planes just fall out if the air lately. Just joking. In bad taste too. From what I read into the story. They want to get rid of the lead in av gas. Lead is mostly a lubricant. Does help valves and valve seats. Think back when we had lead in gas. We would wash our hands with it. Do that with ethanol and it takes all the oil off your skin and makes them sore. I kind of think we are kicking a dead horse here. Those of us who have to fix what it destroys, know its not good in carbureted engines. Those who produce and sell it, have to try to convince otherwise. Use it if you want or have to. Because in the end it makes me money too (sadly).   Steve

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #43 on: Sep 12, 2017, 05:19 AM »
Talked to the mechanics at k.I sawyer airport.  Asked about ethanol in av gas. Answer was "NO". Up here with our extreme cold winters it won't work. Ethanol attracts water. Result frozen fuel systems. That is from mechanics who work on them. Every winter I see vehicles towed in from a no start or died going down the road. These get pushed in and put up on hoist. 90% of the time its a frozen fuel filter. A lot of vehicles have filter in tank (very stupid idea) they sit in shop overnight to thaw out. A bottle of dry gas usually does the trick. Maybe they are trying ethanol in av gas. 

How does dry gas work?

Based on either methanol or isopropyl alcohol, dry gas rids the fuel system of water by binding to the water and then burning it all off in the combustion chamber. Because of alcohol’s extremely low freezing point, it also acts as antifreeze to water-contaminated gasoline.

So the solution to ethanol in the fuel is to add more alcohol? Did I miss something? It all works the same...

I don't get it.
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Offline Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #44 on: Sep 12, 2017, 07:39 AM »
Talked to the mechanics at k.I sawyer airport.  Asked about ethanol in av gas. Answer was "NO". Up here with our extreme cold winters it won't work. Ethanol attracts water. Result frozen fuel systems. That is from mechanics who work on them. Every winter I see vehicles towed in from a no start or died going down the road. These get pushed in and put up on hoist. 90% of the time its a frozen fuel filter. A lot of vehicles have filter in tank (very stupid idea) they sit in shop overnight to thaw out. A bottle of dry gas usually does the trick. Maybe they are trying ethanol in av gas. Seems like quite a few planes just fall out if the air lately. Just joking. In bad taste too. From what I read into the story. They want to get rid of the lead in av gas. Lead is mostly a lubricant. Does help valves and valve seats. Think back when we had lead in gas. We would wash our hands with it. Do that with ethanol and it takes all the oil off your skin and makes them sore. I kind of think we are kicking a dead horse here. Those of us who have to fix what it destroys, know its not good in carbureted engines. Those who produce and sell it, have to try to convince otherwise. Use it if you want or have to. Because in the end it makes me money too (sadly).   Steve

That is the part where old aircraft need upgrades. I mean I wouldn't expect an old tube tv to work well with by 3D blue ray player.

Offline backwoodswalker

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #45 on: Sep 12, 2017, 10:28 AM »
Isopropyl absorbs the water in system. It either evaporates and takes piusture with it or goes through fuel system and is burned in combustion process. .  steve

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #46 on: Sep 12, 2017, 10:49 AM »
Alcohol is alcohol. Iso, methanol, ethanol doesn't make a difference. Absorb/attract water all the same.
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Offline Skywagon

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #47 on: Sep 12, 2017, 12:10 PM »
That is the part where old aircraft need upgrades. I mean I wouldn't expect an old tube tv to work well with by 3D blue ray player.

I agree, but it will take a lot to get that implemented by the FAA to allow the necessary changes to be made.  Rubber lines, O-rings, rubber carburetor-injector parts, gas tank bladders and engines would all have to be addressed.  The cost to an aircraft owner could potentially be overwhelming, new engines can cost as much as a luxury automobile.

Offline Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #48 on: Sep 12, 2017, 04:44 PM »
I agree, but it will take a lot to get that implemented by the FAA to allow the necessary changes to be made.  Rubber lines, O-rings, rubber carburetor-injector parts, gas tank bladders and engines would all have to be addressed.  The cost to an aircraft owner could potentially be overwhelming, new engines can cost as much as a luxury automobile.

They have to tear down aircraft after so many hours of flight and go threw them. The "upgrades" can't be that much since some are doing it.

Offline matzilla

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #49 on: Sep 13, 2017, 01:17 PM »
Alcohol is alcohol. Iso, methanol, ethanol doesn't make a difference. Absorb/attract water all the same.


The usual fix for long-term storage of ethanol fuel is to add a stabilizer, which will contain a high concentration of isopropanol. The main thing that will do is form an azeotropic mixture with water, meaning that its components will evaporate at the same rate, so when the isopropanol evaporates, it takes the water with it. This same mixture, in sufficient concentration, will also burn.



Drygas is just HEET fuel treatment - methanol or iso

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