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Author Topic: Ethanol testing  (Read 1892 times)

Royalwapiti

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #20 on: Aug 15, 2017, 05:53 AM »
Some gas stations in my state still have a 87 octane non-ethanol.   I think it is Kum and Go and some Casey's, but not all.  I never use ethanol in any small engine.   

It's a good way to buy equipment thou.  I bought a Honda eu2000 generator from a guy who left ethanol in it, it would not run right, would surge up and down.  I paid much less for it than i planned and then took it home and spent 20 minutes cleaning the carb, good as new.
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vanhln

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #21 on: Aug 15, 2017, 07:39 AM »
Just because someone is a farmer doesn't mean that you all like ethanol.  I agree with Spider1.  I'm for alternatives if they make sense.

Ethanol threw the whole agriculture industry on its ear.  Fertilizer, herbicide and inputs increased nearly 3 fold when this was instituted (along with crop prices increasing 3 fold).  Everything escalated: land rent prices, equipment, etc.  Then it came down.... Idk.... 

Right now, (in my humble opinion), alternative fuels, energy need to be propped up with govt subsidies to make it affordable and I think if something was good enough, private industry would invest in it without govt intervention.  I didn't mean to get political, and now am open to bashing I'm sure.....

And I don't think we need to get bash the guy from Iowa

Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #22 on: Aug 15, 2017, 07:47 AM »
just one little disagreement. If you dump a bunch of ethanol in a river, the fish don't get drink. They die. It's not like they are hangin at the corner pub or something, they are breathing the stuff not drinking it. A spill like that doesn't have a zero or even near zero environmental impact. Just saying.

Now, I have absolutely nothing against alternative fuels. I just won't bury my head in the sand and pretend there won't be problems along the way to a better fuel. Personally, I don't see ethanol fuels as a good choice though. It really doesn't do anything to solve the problem and only causes more problems.

Ethanol is an alcohol, if fish absorb it into the blood stream it could intoxicate them. By breathing it through gills in could get into the blood stream. The little impact that would be a possible for a fish kill would be from the concentration smothering fish, other then that the breakdown of the alcohol makes for a pretty non toxic fuel. A couple of ethanol plants even make liquor instead of fuel, that you might have drank yourself. Sounds like pretty toxic stuff.......

I'm not in disagreement that other alternative fuels won't come along, and that there won't be problems. However, the world runs on the combustible engine & will need fuel for quite some time. While the ethanol market won't last forever, other markets will replace it.

rundrave

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #23 on: Aug 15, 2017, 08:17 AM »
Best fuel for the most mileage I found was E-30. Actually got better mileage then the regular non ethanol.

This thread wasnt started for a MPG discussion in vehicles. It was about small engines and ethanol. Last I checked most small engine owners weren't worried about MPG in their riding lawn mower.

However, the world runs on the combustible engine & will need fuel for quite some time. While the ethanol market won't last forever, other markets will replace it.

Yup just need to get rid of the mandates and subsidies and let ethanol support itself if its such a viable solution.

I have never had any luck with ethanol in any of my small engines. I immediately notice my riding lawn mower runs terrible. Noticeable less power etc. with e10. Put any fuel with no ethanol it and it just purrs and runs fantastic.

matzilla

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #24 on: Aug 15, 2017, 11:09 AM »
Ethanol is an alcohol, if fish absorb it into the blood stream it could intoxicate them. By breathing it through gills in could get into the blood stream. The little impact that would be a possible for a fish kill would be from the concentration smothering fish, other then that the breakdown of the alcohol makes for a pretty non toxic fuel. A couple of ethanol plants even make liquor instead of fuel, that you might have drank yourself. Sounds like pretty toxic stuff.......

I'm not in disagreement that other alternative fuels won't come along, and that there won't be problems. However, the world runs on the combustible engine & will need fuel for quite some time. While the ethanol market won't last forever, other markets will replace it.

There have been fairly large Ethanol spills along the Mississippi River (Wisconsin) that do not cause fish kills for the exact reasons you're mentioning. It takes a high concentration of ethanol to impact plants and animals with lethal results.

I would wager that the inefficiencies in producing Ethanol are strictly based on producing the fuel - it does not take into account the useful co-products such as corn starch, corn syrup, corn oil, distillers grains, maltodextrins, etc. These co-products are used in nearly everything you consume, buy or own - medicines, cosmetics, rubber products, adhesives, foods, soft drinks, plastics, shoes, coats, fabric dies, inks, cat litter, animal feed, etc.   Most Ethanol plants producing food grade product are producing fuel grade Ethanol at extremely high qualities - much higher quality fuel than what a fuel grade gasoline refinery lets leave the door.

For anyone who says "OMG ethanol is terrible in engines" simply don't use it. You can buy non-ethanol fuel, even premixed for 2 stroke use, off the shelf at nearly any walmart.

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Royalwapiti

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #25 on: Aug 15, 2017, 04:58 PM »
There won't be any drunk fish.   Any industrial made ethanol is "denatured" meaning it is not fit to consume.  Thus no spirits/provisions alcohol taxes have been paid on it.  So that could cause the fish toxicity, not sure.  The Wiki definition is;   "Denatured alcohol, also called methylated spirits or denatured rectified spirit, is ethanol that has additives to make it poisonous, bad tasting, foul smelling or nauseating, to discourage recreational consumption. In some cases it is also dyed"

Regardless, I avoid it in my small engines.  My perception is letting it sit around causes the problem.  I think it would be fine if you were going to use all the fuel in a short time like we typically do our automobiles. 
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Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #26 on: Aug 15, 2017, 05:18 PM »
There won't be any drunk fish.   Any industrial made ethanol is "denatured" meaning it is not fit to consume.  Thus no spirits/provisions alcohol taxes have been paid on it.  So that could cause the fish toxicity, not sure.  The Wiki definition is;   "Denatured alcohol, also called methylated spirits or denatured rectified spirit, is ethanol that has additives to make it poisonous, bad tasting, foul smelling or nauseating, to discourage recreational consumption. In some cases it is also dyed"

Regardless, I avoid it in my small engines.  My perception is letting it sit around causes the problem.  I think it would be fine if you were going to use all the fuel in a short time like we typically do our automobiles.

I can't speak for all ethanol plants, but at our local one they add a small amount of fuel with it to every rail tanker to "denature" it.

The following link talks about how some ethanol plants are producing both. I do get a chuckle about having "organic" grade vodka......I mean nothing like trying to market a "healthy" vodka.

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/6699/ethanol-to-drink/

Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #27 on: Aug 15, 2017, 05:48 PM »
Yup just need to get rid of the mandates and subsidies and let ethanol support itself if its such a viable solution.

I have never had any luck with ethanol in any of my small engines. I immediately notice my riding lawn mower runs terrible. Noticeable less power etc. with e10. Put any fuel with no ethanol it and it just purrs and runs fantastic.

Um...most of the subsidies have been pulled. There are still some in place for companies and people to upgrade equipment and things to use it. It is a viable solution and works in the market place. If it wasn't then why does Europe buy and import large amounts of it. Why does California import it large amounts of it from Brazil. The mandates were a joke the oil industries used way over the mandate amounts every year, the political Hacks jumped on the wagon upping the mandates to levels lower then what was being used to act like they were pushing something to their base when it was happening regaurdless of the mandate.

If your mower runs like crap and you haven't been able to make ethanol work in a small engine, then you need to find a place with decent fuel. It is no secret that oil companies have been blending the high octane ethanol with poor quality low grade fuel that won't burn correctly in a motor alone. Since the high octane ethanol burns hotter it brings the low octane fuel up to a high enough octane to a level where it will burn and work in a motor. It sounds like your getting a really crappy cheap blend that doesn't have enough octane to burn smoothly.

Hence why e-30 fuel tends to give the best preformance in a lot of motors. The ethanol makes the fuel burn hot enough that it almost burns 100% giving the best fuel efficiency. Normal fuel alone doesn't completly burn. Hence why there are fuel additives on the market that are nothing more then just high octane ethanol to help sluggishly running motors run butter.


Idahogator

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #28 on: Aug 15, 2017, 09:29 PM »

          to help sluggishly running motors run butter.



So, does butter lube the top end?

Or are you on the sauce again?


Is everyone aware what octane helps with is preventing "pre-ignition " in high compression engines?
      

erie eyes

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #29 on: Aug 15, 2017, 10:02 PM »
The thread started out how to test or remove ethanol, and went way off kilter when Agronomist tried to sell us on ethanol like a politician. Let the market decide what we want to use, not what is forced upon us. Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it will pull moisture out of the air. Try a little experiment pour a pint of gas in a shallow pan on a humid day and see what happens, this is why you don't want this crap in your fuel tank on your boat or in your unsealed fuel can in the garage. Agronomist I make less money when people take my advise to avoid ethanol in fuel so I have nothing to gain but more satisfied customers. You on the other hand at every opportunity try to sell us on the benefits of ethanol for your financial gain or to brain wash more sheeple. I have no way of testing the quality of fuel any more than you do, so the only way I can guarantee results is to avoid the things I know create trouble.

Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #30 on: Aug 15, 2017, 10:42 PM »
The thread started out how to test or remove ethanol, and went way off kilter when Agronomist tried to sell us on ethanol like a politician. Let the market decide what we want to use, not what is forced upon us. Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it will pull moisture out of the air. Try a little experiment pour a pint of gas in a shallow pan on a humid day and see what happens, this is why you don't want this crap in your fuel tank on your boat or in your unsealed fuel can in the garage. Agronomist I make less money when people take my advise to avoid ethanol in fuel so I have nothing to gain but more satisfied customers. You on the other hand at every opportunity try to sell us on the benefits of ethanol for your financial gain or to brain wash more sheeple. I have no way of testing the quality of fuel any more than you do, so the only way I can guarantee results is to avoid the things I know create trouble.

There are a lot of benefits. Those benefits gain consumers and the environment. It's your choice to choose ignorance towards them. Just because you've had a bad experience with a product and have decided against it doesn't make it a bad product. If you don't want to use it, don't.

erie eyes

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #31 on: Aug 15, 2017, 11:01 PM »
Again a politician answer. In most case consumers dont have a choice, it is forced on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Because it benefits you we are less smart than you. Google ethanol ruined my chainsaw or mower, outboard and see the results. I believe the university of Mich study says the early test results were flawed and pollutants are about the same. We all have our beliefs mine are not steered by money, I have nothing to gain. If I owned a ethanol plant I would have all the answers as it sounds like you have been preaching whats best for us for some time (experienced).

Agronomist_at_IA

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #32 on: Aug 16, 2017, 12:09 AM »
Again a politician answer. In most case consumers dont have a choice, it is forced on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Because it benefits you we are less smart than you. Google ethanol ruined my chainsaw or mower, outboard and see the results. I believe the university of Mich study says the early test results were flawed and pollutants are about the same. We all have our beliefs mine are not steered by money, I have nothing to gain. If I owned a ethanol plant I would have all the answers as it sounds like you have been preaching whats best for us for some time (experienced).

How is it "forced" on people. Must be different in your area. Just about every gas station in my area has non ethanol fuel avalible for the consumers. I don't understand where you came up with the theory that because I support ethanol and the many benefits it has brought to our nation that it makes you less intelligent then myself. If you took my attempts to try and further education about ethanol in that way, then you took it the wrong way.

I haven't disagreed that when people use the product wrong that issues can happen. Education on using the product can pretty much eliminate issues. I don't have an ethanol plant. I do tend to have a lot of truthful non bias factual data that I've been given to show many of the benefits of ethanol. Do I know it all...no.  Nor do I know what's best for you. I would however recommend you use non ethanol fuel because it seems to difficult for you to handle using it correctly.

esox_xtm

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #33 on: Aug 16, 2017, 12:12 AM »
Wow. This topic is always a touchy one. From my perspective I see lots of ethanol misinformation and band wagon drum beating. It's funny because everyone of you that have had "motors ruined by ethanol" I have had no such experiences in 30 years.

Erie is right. Where I live we have no choice. It has been forced upon us. I do find ethanol preferable to the MBTE they started with here in SE WI.

Sure, we can get "premium" non-E most places but my big outboard does not do well with higher octane fuel. It runs too cool and THAT gums things up. I have had ZERO trouble with ANY of my small motors and ethanol (regular 87): two mowers, weed whacker, snowblower, two chainsaws and two rototillers. I believe its: A.) I always use a fuel additive (I have had good results with Seafoam, Stabil, Stabil marine, Stabil 360 and Startron to name a few) and B.) I never use old gas. If I don't empty my big cans every month the balance gets poured into something that can take it and use it; truck, car, tractor and it gets burned up. Problem solved. I think it's silly to buy premium gas for a small motor just to get away from ethanol.

Ethanol is proven to be hard on rubber that comes in contact with it. Most late model stuff is made with ethanol resistant fuel lines etc. but older stuff can suffer that degradation with constant use and no maintenance. Take my 1994 120hp Johnny for example. I bought it in 2004 and when the OIL PUMP needed maintenance in 2010 I took the liberty of replacing the original fuel line with E-resistant line before I had issues. I also let ALL of my small motors sit off season with at least a half, if not full tank of E-gas. Season rolls around, pour it out and start with fresh. This keeps carb seals/gaskets from drying out. Sometimes I'll try and start 'em just to see if they will. Most of the time it's surprisingly easy.

I'm no politician. I'm just a regular guy that doesn't have ethanol issues. I must be blessed. Or maybe I've just figured out how to deal with it before something "gets wrecked".

It's not hard guys. Agronomist, I'm in your camp on this one. I refused to be the parrot and buy into the "I don't want it so it's got to be bad" deal.

Besides, I really don't have a choice but to make it work. A little common sense goes a long way. I keep waiting for something bad to happen to one of my little motors. It's been 30 years of ethanol and I ain't gettin' any younger. Maybe not in my lifetime...
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backwoodswalker

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #34 on: Aug 16, 2017, 02:22 PM »
My 2 cents. I have been a mechanic for 41 years. Worked on engines as small as cox 049 and ad big as v12 cat diesels. In that time I have seen what ethanol does to ANY carbureted engine. It ruins the entire fuel system. Anything rubber gets ate. Tygon gets brittle. Fuel pumps are corroded and ruined. Fuel consumption goes up. Power goes down. In fuel injected engines it is o.k except for less power and less mileage.  This crap of non ethanol costing more is a huge rippoff. Ethanol is ADDED to refined fuel. Why charge more when you get less? Because you are getting 10% or more gasoline. All of our newer small engines at the shop come with a warning. DO NOT USE ETHANOL FUEL. Some will even void warrantee
 There is NO good effects from ethanol. No not even in whiskey or whatever liquor.  Not here to argue with anyone. Just to give a little advice. Don't use ethanol fuel in anything with a carburetor.  Pay the little extra for ethanol free. And in small motors or 2 strokes it does not need to be premium. Compression is low enough so regular will be fine.   Steve

esox_xtm

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #35 on: Aug 16, 2017, 07:09 PM »
But that's the issue Steve, in many areas (think the highly industrialized locales surrounding the Great Lakes) it has been Federally mandated to use RFG (Reformulated Gas). The cost is (again) dictated by the Federales. The only non-RFG choice is to pay a premium price for unnecessary (in most cases) premium fuel. It's been that way 'round here since the mid 70's. All in the name of mitigating CO2 pollution.

As far as fuel "additives", every refiner/company has their pet brew of "detergents and cleaners" so you will never get "just gas".

But you really got to the deal. Do your PMs and you should never have issues with ethanol. Is that more labor intensive? Yep. More costly? Definitely yep. Totally out of control and unmanageable? Sorry Champ, not for this cat....

Face it, how much do people neglect their stuff (even on non-ethanol, c'mon man, you've seen it) and depend on it to run and (by the grace of the small motor gods and guys like you) it does. Ethanol is the wrench in the works but not the demon. It can be well managed if you hold up your end of the log.

As far as mileage and power? There's a LOT more to it than that. It is FAR more dependent on the total fuel formulation than just the presence of ethanol or not. I always run 87 ethanol (rarely, rarely have a non-premium choice) in the truck where ever I go. Formulations in the north part of the state get me another 2 (sometimes 3) mpg with the same kind of driving. I've always called "Up North" gas "Rocket Fuel" because often it seems like just that. Never forget that fuel is a fluid recipe (pun intended) based on refiner and region and can vary widely even within an easily travellable geographic region.

Better look for the waders..... it gets deeper.  :whistle:

Spoiler alert: I'll call the movement to make ethanol "evil" a ploy of the petroleum industry to regain what they have lost due to reformulation. I'm not much into conspiracy theory but this (to me) is very believable.

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erie eyes

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #36 on: Aug 16, 2017, 09:17 PM »
Amen Backwoods, AAI and Esox you guys have figured out how to make it work for youselves, Good for you. But millions of engines tell a different story of ethanol effects. could we avoid some or most of them, probably with enough effort, But do most of us have time or knowledge to stop it, no. Do we auger all our holes with hand augers? Hell no: path of least resistance add power be it gas or electric. Esox you spoke of your older outboard not running on high test fuel. do you realize when you mix oil with gas you lower the octane rating of the fuel and the first outboard made to use ethanol was not brought to market until 2005, read the following link, https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/infographic-411-ethanol-fuel-and-ethanol-treatment. Even though I dont recommend a stabilizer in all cases, for some it is an absolute must. Now look up phase separation and the list goes on and on. Just like most debates they are endless, Backwoods and I both see the effects every day and if you can use ethanol so be it but for a strong economy and market place give us a choice even if higher price I will take ethanol free for less babysitting. My drum is broke you guys can beat yours forever, I have no dog in the fight. When the history is written on ethanol it will show to have been bad for even the farmers also.

Idahogator

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #37 on: Aug 16, 2017, 11:17 PM »
And that history began more than a few years ago.    :woot: :roflmao: ;)2


                 

                 
      

esox_xtm

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #38 on: Aug 17, 2017, 06:47 AM »
Just for the record, if I had a choice, I'd rather drink corn alcohol than have to burn it.... ;)2
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matzilla

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Re: Ethanol testing
« Reply #39 on: Aug 17, 2017, 09:58 PM »
You always have a choice...you can buy non-ethanol gas and have it delivered to your door.

Most denatured alcohol has bitrex added - it has no impact on engines if you were to use bitrex denatured alcohol as a fuel

The TTB controls denaturing standards and nearly all other alcohol standards in the US
Fuel alcohol shipped direct from an ethanol plant to a gasoline facility does not need to be denatured. It is usually about 185-190 proof ethanol if I remember correctly. The remainder of the solution is typically other fermentation hydrocarbons and 1-2% water. This is high grade single pass distilled. Anything over 190 proof is multi pass or multi processed near anhydrous

the model t was designed to run on ethanol

Engines tailored to run on ethanol make more power than those using gasoline

Ethanol is required for synthetic rubber production - synthetic rubbers do not harden when exposed to ethanol - cheaply produced natural rubber doesn't like ethanol




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