Melting Snow Fields

[Anomaly]

"“We’re going to have fewer trout,” said Bruce Farling of Trout Unlimited. “We’re going to have more warm-water species. We’re going to have more diseases and parasites that are harmful to trout.” Because the snowfields provide a steady stream of cold water, he said, some local native species of trout that are intolerant of warm temperatures may face extinction. Those sorts of changes would also have big effects on the economy. Fishing brings in hundreds of millions of dollars each year to the area’s economy. ‘That snow is the water bucket that is providing the liquid nourishment for our breadbasket, the grain fields of North America. It will never come back.’

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/10/30/beartooth-mountains-snow-melting.html?utm_content=manual&utm_campaign=ajam&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=SocialFlow

[44 Degrees North]

Don't talk that way. I'm carrying a loaded gun these days.

[saltyshores]

Don't talk that way. I'm carrying a loaded gun these days.

Me, too. There was an armed robbery in Whiting according to WABI TV

[Anomaly]

Don't talk that way. I'm carrying a loaded gun these days.

What ya gonna shoot? CO2 emiters? 

Maybe our grand kids will be looking more at crappy and walleye than brookies and salmon. 

[jacksmelt71]

I'ts happening now. you see all kinds if diseases and parasites on cold water species nowadays that weren't existent 30 yrs. ago. it doesn't affect the warm water species tho. acid rain is still killing the tops of the hardwoods. that acifiying affect is building up in our watersheds changing the soil and water ph. that alone could be causing more stress to the salmon and trout, causing them to be more prone to diseases. i think in the near future, unless theres serious change, most watersheds aren't going to be fit for cold water species.

[GasBlaster]

Aljazeera is not where I get my news     you might as well watch MSNBC 

[44 Degrees North]

Don't talk that way. I'm carrying a loaded gun these days.

  You'll have me suicidal with that kinda of talk.

[Anomaly]

Aljazeera is not where I get my news     you might as well watch MSNBC 

FOX has the lowest fact check rating.

Time to develop consciousness. That is supposed to be developed @ 25. OH YEAH! That is cognitive reasoning. I guess that’s the same.

Is this better for ya? :

"Snowfields that have topped the Beartooth Mountains for centuries are gone now. A Montana scientist said they melted this summer. Dr. James Halfpenny said it is the first time in his life he's ever seen the bare ground beneath them.”  http://www.kulr8.com/story/30137369/beartooth-mountains-snowfields-disappearing-due-to-changing-climate

“There are 16 greenhouse gasses. Three of them are only made by humans. Then of the other thirteen chemicals we can measure how much is human caused, and how much is natural. And when we look at carbon dioxide, the human caused is measurable.”

http://wyomingpublicmedia.org/post/beartooth-snowfields-melting

[GasBlaster]

Halfpenny explained, “The past winter in the northeast part of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem snowfall was     "WELL BELOW" average, and then we had "A" hot summer, and those two factors combined have unprecedented melting out of the snow field.”

The sky is falling !!! The sky is falling !!!!

I wonder what type of man made greenhouse gasses were around the last time it was melted to bare ground ?

[Anomaly]

The sky is falling !!! The sky is falling !!!!

I wonder what type of man made greenhouse gasses were around the last time it was melted to bare ground ?

I simply believe we need to be conscious of the changes that ARE happening, especially for us that live the outdoors and wildlife, NOT JUST USE THEM. That is why I post things like this. If your boat is leaking, do you not bail. If you’re headed for the rocks and you can do something to avoid them or hit them a little less hard, wouldn’t we? The general consensus of real climate scientists says the science is settled; that it is no longer a question of climate change or human causation, but what is going to happen how fast.

A sinking boat is not political til someone can profit from it.

There’s a lot going on.

"According to data compiled by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), sea surface water temperatures over much of the Atlantic were warmer than average spanning January to August 2015. Waters from the northwestern Caribbean to the central part of the ocean were not only very warm but were record warm.
However, very chilly to record cold water has developed near Greenland, the NOAA data revealed.
The reason for the cold pocket and less salty water is believed to be due to the melting ice in Greenland discharging fresh water into the nearby North Atlantic.
While the cold, less salty pool near Greenland may be some sort of balancing act in the Earth's complex climate, it could cause the Gulf Stream to weaken. A weakening Gulf Stream could have major impact on the weather and climate.”
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/north-atlantic-cold-blob-could-affect-gulf-stream-weather-europe-eastern-us/52869594

It is thought something similar cased the last ice age. Global Warming can be persnickety. Stalled Gulf stream any one? 

[GasBlaster]

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/11/ohoh_nasa_study_finds_antarctic_ice_cap_growing.html

[Downeaster]

I'm not worried about it.  I have plenty of snow every year, where I live in Waterford.  He
must be hooked into the global warming community.

[Anomaly]

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/11/ohoh_nasa_study_finds_antarctic_ice_cap_growing.html

The surface sea ice is growing. Overall mass is shrinking. Land ice is loosing mass.

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximum

Science says: Satellites measure Antarctica is gaining sea ice but losing land ice at an accelerating rate, which has implications for sea level rise.

http://www.wunderground.com/climate/facts/antarctica_is_losing_ice_sheet.asp

[Anomaly]

I'm not worried about it.  I have plenty of snow every year, where I live in Waterford.  He
must be hooked into the global warming community.

Warm air carries more moisture. It’s physics. More snow is not an indication of a stable or not warming climate. That’s weather.  Long term, over years and decades,  snow pack loss and glacial retreat are indicators. That’s climate.

[Anomaly]

"In other words, if we really are moving into a troubling world in which global warming changes the circulation of the oceans, at least the good news is that we’ll be able to detect that from space.”....."NASA’s GRACE satellites (artist’s concept) measured Atlantic Ocean bottom pressure as an indicator of deep ocean current speed. In 2009, this pattern of above-average (blue) and below-average (red) seafloor pressure revealed a temporary slowing of the deep currents. (NASA/JPL-Caltech.)”

It will be pretty hard to deny this data.

Meanwhile, another study says the Sun will will going into a serious cooling period beginning around 2030. The study indicates the sun will be putting 60% less energy our way. So, plenty of ice! Right. That would deb SOME OLE solar forcing. I could only find one study about that. It is brand new. Might cut back the population some. It would certainly cut back on co2 emissions.  Build your heated well stocked bunker now! 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/11/04/nasa-can-now-detect-worrying-ocean-circulation-changes-from-space/

[cap]

The Beartooth mountain snowfields are an ephemeral landscape...and most likely they are only a few hundred years old as was stated in the article.

They most likely were formed during a climate time period known as The Little Ice Age which lasted from the sixteenth to the 19th century with extra cold periods just before and after 1650, 1770 and 1850.

The implied age of 1000's of year's for this ice is highly unlikely because just before the Little Ice Age was a period of warming known as the Medieval Climate Anomaly (which used be called the Medieval Warm Period but that name was considered politically incorrect in today's politically charged climate).

At that time the fields probably melted to bare ground....Although there is some small chance that a small part of older ice persisted through that warming.

If you want to go back to 10,000 years ago the field was probably an actual glacier, and maybe even a remnant of the continental Glacial Ice Cap.

So long before man's influence on atmospheric greenhouse gas concentration the snowfield's extent waxed and waned as most of the physical parameters of the natural landscape do.

Aloha

[Anomaly]

So long before man's influence on atmospheric greenhouse gas concentration the snowfield's extent waxed and waned as most of the physical parameters of the natural landscape do.

Aloha

Hey cap, you wild man! You’re starting to sound like an status quo apologist begging a question.

Waxing and waning as "most of the physical parameters of the natural landscape do.” is not a question for any one. The issue here, now is the accelerated  pace we currently are living in. If we were talking about 100’s of years, it would be easier to discount human impact of climate and intensifying weather. WE are looking at decades in juxtaposition and conjunction with the Industrial Revolution.  Many factors are being quantified through gathered data. Obviously, we can’t control solar activity, seismic activity or volcanic activity. WE are controlling by choosing not to control , via out of conscious control, use of co2, methane and other heat accumulating compounds.

Accelerating changes are impacted by human activity. We are just about off the road and are off the road in many cases.

Things are happening that humans are catalyzing and accelerating. We are not the benign species cap would purport.

""This creates a frustrating situation that contributes to mistrust among fishers, scientists and managers," Pershing says.

According to the report, recovery of Gulf of Maine cod depends on sound fishery management and on knowing water temperature. The study shows the risk of not including water temperature in fisheries models, especially for stocks like Gulf of Maine cod at the edge of their range. The warmer climate gets, the less fisheries managers can rely on historical data, Pershing notes.

"The ability to predict the effect of warming on fish stocks will be an important part of adapting fisheries to a changing climate," he says.”

First, we caught em all: http://www.science20.com/news_articles/warming_waters_contributed_to_the_collapse_of_new_englands_cod_fishery-158667

 

[cap]

I actually read the Nature article that this article is based upon. The GOM warming that is observed is measured by satellite in the surface waters. I do not deny these data as factual, i.e. that GOM surface waters have been warming, but where do the cod actually live? Think about it. They live in the cooler deeper water which enters the GOM through the Northeast Channel, and this water is characterized by the strength and location of the Labrador Current. So to blame recent surface water warmth on the decimation of the cod fishery is total BS, and political grandstanding. Hundreds of years of overfishing, destroying estuarine habitat by dredging and filling, and damming rivers is a more likely cause than any recent warming and surely less so in warming of the surface waters...that is unless the surface water temperature is reflected by a total mixing of the ocean at depth, which no oceanographer has ever suggested before now or ever in the past, because the ocean is stratified by temperature and salinity.

The warming of surface water in the GOM is controlled by the northern border and the strength of the Gulf Stream as it relates to AMOC or NAO and other atmospheric/ocean linkages which influence the climate. 

Like a swinging gate, when open, the GOM experiences more warm Gulf Stream waters, or less Gulf Stream surface waters when closed, like wise more or less Labrador Slope deeper water enters through a deeper channel.

This is all known...  http://www.geology.um.maine.edu/publications/Wanamaker_CD_2007.pdf

Sure the surface water has warmed recently based on satellite imagery...sure we put co2 gas into the atmosphere...surely CO2 is a greenhouse gas..surely the climate has warmed in the last couple of 100 years....but the deeper water where the cod live is an entirely different animal....and linking the two is like I said above politically motivated.

...science and politics should not mix...the politics has actually hurt climate research...think of "Hide the Decline" and Climategate....such a shame...

IPCC report is more of a political position paper...even when there is good science in the report...in fact quite often the Summary for Policymakers in the IPCC runs contrary to the good science within the report...

Most people do not have enough scientific information or background to be able to critically review this stuff, and they are just being snowed by the politicians and the complicit press.

[Anomaly]

Sure the surface water has warmed recently based on satellite imagery...sure we put co2 gas into the atmosphere...surely CO2 is a greenhouse gas..surely the climate has warmed in the last couple of 100 years....but the deeper water where the cod live is an entirely different animal....and linking the two is like I said above politically motivated.

Most people do not have enough scientific information or background to be able to critically review this stuff, and they are just being snowed by the politicians and the complicit press.

"the slowing of the great “overturning” circulation in the Atlantic Ocean — is already starting to happen.” ...."In other words, if we really are moving into a troubling world in which global warming changes the circulation of the oceans, at least the good news is that we’ll be able to detect that from space.”

There are indications here that the ocean, at depth, along our area of the Atlantic IS warming and there is further preliminary indication the Gulf Stream may be slowing, due in part to cold water from melting ice sheets flowing into the system. This effect was contributory to the last ice age.



I am not glad at this likely potential. I am glad the science is advancing toward less debatable data. I have to go with the best data, a cognitive compilation of accumulating planet wide evidence and the studied opinion of the vast majority of those that live and breathe in these studies for the sake of the study. Their overall body of work indicates things are changing more rapidly than in the geologic past and that humans are accelerating the change.

[Bout-Time]

Although I am very interested in the health of our waters and fisheries (as we all should as anglers), I am no expert on the subject.

After some research, I found some info Id like to share.

It seems Atlantic cod activity tails off at a max depth of 360ft (summer) and 440ft (winter). Most spawn in the 200ft range, and have been found to spawn in 3ft of water. It seems they do mostly exist in the euphotic zone of warmer water.

Ocean stratification is being affected by the non-mixing of the euphotic and (the next layer) disphotic zones, where the nutrients phytoplankton need are located. Any change on the phytoplankton level affects the upward links in the food chain, for better or worse.

Phytoplankton take in carbon dioxide (giving off 50% of our oxygen) and live in the euphotic zone, where light can penetrate to power photosynthesis. This layer of the ocean can be at max depth of around 600ft depending on clarity. These plankton are eaten by zooplankton (1st link in marine food chain), and those are eaten by baitfish. They will drift/swim as desired locations change, which effects the food chain as well.

Just some observations....

[Anomaly]

Although I am very interested in the health of our waters and fisheries (as we all should as anglers), I am no expert on the subject.

After some research, I found some info Id like to share.

It seems Atlantic cod activity tails off at a max depth of 360ft (summer) and 440ft (winter). Most spawn in the 200ft range, and have been found to spawn in 3ft of water. It seems they do mostly exist in the euphotic zone of warmer water.

Ocean stratification is being affected by the non-mixing of the euphotic and (the next layer) disphotic zones, where the nutrients phytoplankton need are located. Any change on the phytoplankton level affects the upward links in the food chain, for better or worse.

Phytoplankton take in carbon dioxide (giving off 50% of our oxygen) and live in the euphotic zone, where light can penetrate to power photosynthesis. This layer of the ocean can be at max depth of around 600ft depending on clarity. These plankton are eaten by zooplankton (1st link in marine food chain), and those are eaten by baitfish. They will drift/swim as desired locations change, which effects the food chain as well.

Just some observations....

Thanks , BT! I hadn’t seen that before. Seems like a wide spectrum in a delicate balance.

[NickM]

I would be one of the first to point out that the climate varied a lot before people started burning fossil fuels. If you look at historical accounts, I think there's anecdotal evidence that some places were at least as warm as what we're seeing today if you look at Medieval Europe for example. The climate scientists really could be wrong.

That being said, CO2 does trap solar radiation. That's not debatable. You can test it in a lab. What you can't say with very much certainty is what exactly a certain concentration in the atmosphere will do the climate. It can't be a bad idea to at least slow down on burning all that oil and coal, right?

Even if there's only a 50% chance or a 15% chance that we're going to see significant warming, it might be a good idea to start making some changes. It's like wearing your seat belt, installing smoke detectors, buying insurance, or carrying a handgun. We all take precautions for events that are not certain or even likely, because the consequences of being unprepared if something does happen would be disastrous. We also don't want to overreact and lock ourselves in a padded room. It's a tricky balance, but I don't think the path we're on is a smart one if you want there to be good ice fishing for your great grandchildren.

[GasBlaster]

http://www.sciencealert.com/a-mini-ice-age-is-coming-in-the-next-15-years

[Anomaly]

http://www.sciencealert.com/a-mini-ice-age-is-coming-in-the-next-15-years

It doesn’t negate the present situation.

As I posted above: Meanwhile, another study says the Sun will going into a serious cooling period beginning around 2030. The study indicates the sun will be putting 60% less energy our way. So, plenty of ice! Right. That would deb SOME OLE solar forcing. I could only find one study about that. It is brand new. Might cut back the population some. It would certainly cut back on co2 emissions.  Build your heated well stocked bunker now! 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/11/04/nasa-can-now-detect-worrying-ocean-circulation-changes-from-space/
Modify message

[GasBlaster]

Good news for ice fishing

[Anomaly]

More good news.

"The calving of the glacier into chunks of floating ice will set in train a rise in sea levels that will continue for decades to come, the U.S. team warns.

“Even if we have some really cool years ahead, we think the glacier is now unstable,” said Jeremie Mouginot at the University of California, Irvine. “Now this has started, it will continue until it retreats to a ridge about 30 kilometers [19 miles] back which could stabilize it and perhaps slow that retreat down.”

http://grist.org/climate-energy/a-major-greenland-glacier-is-collapsing/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=update&utm_campaign=socialflow

"Mouginot and his colleagues drew on 40 years of satellite data and aerial surveys to show that the enormous Zachariae Isstrom glacier began to recede three times faster from 2012, with its retreat speeding up by 125 meters [410 feet] per year every year until the most recent measurements in 2015.  The same records revealed that from 2002 to 2014 the area of the glacier’s floating shelf shrank by a massive 95 percent, according to a report in the journal Science. The glacier has now become detached from a stabilizing sill and is losing ice at a rate of 4.5 billion tonnes a year.”

cap might say “Only the surface is rising, the bottom is staying the same.” 

[cap]

It doesn’t negate the present situation.

It certainly does....Any model for projected greenhouse warming that doesn't take into account differences in solar thermal flux is flawed.

We know the sun has cycles...the Maunder Minimum is factual...

The leveling off of global temps over the last decade and a half even with increased atmospheric CO2 concentration due to the increased industrialization of China and India shows flaws in current understanding of how the system works and the flaws in predictive climate models.

cap might say “Only the surface is rising, the bottom is staying the same.”

Satellite imagery of glacial ice surface extent has nothing to do with satellite ESTIMATES of sea surface temperature... it is like comparing apples and oranges...it is convenient for some to link cause and effect but correlation does NOT imply causation.

Changes in sea surface temperature have nothing to do with the total oceanic temperature and changes in glacial mass balance have nothing to do with collapse of the cod fishing industry.

Saying that the cause of the crash in the cod fishing is do to RECENT increased sea surface temperature in the Gulf of Maine is a stretch...considering where cod live and the history of overfishing, damming and destruction of estuarine habitat.

The last time the GOM was open to large quantities of Gulf Stream surface waters indigenous peoples in Maine were hunting sword fish from open canoes in Penobscot Bay!

Did you even read the link I provided concerning the oceanography and temperature history of the Gulf of Maine?






 

[nathancarter]

Doesn't this belong in the off topic section?

[Anomaly]

It certainly does....
Did you even read the link I provided concerning the oceanography and temperature history of the Gulf of Maine?

You bait easily. Didn’t need my LX7 at all!

No, I didn’t read it yet. Lots more science I have read. Also, in 91, I think, maybe 92. The were green turtles off Mount Desert Rock. Black sea bass were common. A change in the gulf stream, an eddy was named, can cause major changed in fauna very quickly. As I pointed out,were over fished it first.

The present situation of warming, observed and observable oceanic temperature shifts and co2 sequestration are separate from potential Solar down turn. The solar diminishment MAY happen. We can’t control THAT. WE CAN alter our course regarding anthropomorphic green house gases. We have done that similarly with fluorocarbons, the clean air act and the clean water act.

cap, I gotta go with the guys that study this stuff, which is NOT you . I won’t have time to dive to be deeper at the moment, but look forward to it. 

[Anomaly]

Doesn't this belong in the off topic section?

My intention with posts like this is to connect with environmental issue that connect with what we live, like ice fishing. Lots is going on.

Ice fishing this year will be later than I can remember since I waited for salmon water to freeze. Last few years, we fished small ponds in late November.  Not happening. That’s weather, so far. If it keeps up, it’s climate change.

Fish swim in water. They are generally unaware, until we pull them, gasping, to the surface. Then they seem to forget and do it again. We can be aware before the gasping starts. Then we are able to NOT do it again.