yellow perch non native?

[fishy1]

http://www.wcax.com/story/28740872/native-or-not-scientists-say-perch-arent-adirondack-aliens

[perch bait]

They should just promote fishermen like us to go over there and catch yellows without a license. After all, Perch in bodies of water like that are normally huge. It would totally be worth the drive! 

[fishingidjit]

Perch taste better than brookies!

[perch bait]

Perch taste better than brookies!

That's definitely an opinion not a fact. I really like brookies, but then again my Dad really knows how to cook them! 

[spot]

I'm not a fan of the reclamation strategy with regard to poisoning or draining off a body of water to kill everything and then restock later. Firstly, you not only kill the unwanted fish, but the desirable natives as well, and their forage base. Second, stocked fish are drastically inferior to those raised in nature, and as dumb as posts.

Allow fishing without limits or seasons on the fish you wish to control or remove. Tell the fishing public why, and let them be the predator the problem species lacks and then you leave the native trout intact and ready to multiply.

[fishy1]

I'm not a fan of the reclamation strategy with regard to poisoning or draining off a body of water to kill everything and then restock later. Firstly, you not only kill the unwanted fish, but the desirable natives as well, and their forage base. Second, stocked fish are drastically inferior to those raised in nature, and as dumb as posts.

Allow fishing without limits or seasons on the fish you wish to control or remove. Tell the fishing public why, and let them be the predator the problem species lacks and then you leave the native trout intact and ready to multiply.

thats an idea but most trout ponds in the adirondacks are .5 miles to 7 miles from the nearest road so that isnt going to happen. those fish got into those trout ponds by fisherman illegally fishing with live bait and then dumping them into the ponds. there are several that used to be trout ponds close to the highways that fisherman put pike and bass in them . you know what happened to the brookies after that. almost all the trout ponds near roads in the adirondacks have sunnies perch and bullhead in them. makes it tough fishing for kids wanting to use worms and expecting to catch trout.

[spot]

Bullhead were probably there all along, and when small are a favorite food of larger trout.

VT has similar problems with pickerel and bass having been introduced into almost every pond. The point I'm making is that reclamation destroys the pond because it no longer has an ecosystem, something that will take generations to return, if it ever does, and that stocked trout will never, ever be what wild ones are.

So really, the reclamation strategy as it is, is not a solution. Whether a solution exists or not is a question I've not heard an answer to.

The proposal I made above at least does no harm to what is there. It will not fix all problems, but it at least doesn't make things worse.

[ice fiend]

went to school at paul smiths its a wonderfull school i was a fish and wildlife major this study has been going on forever

[fishy1]

there some ponds in the adirondacks that were reclaimed and now hold native trout. they were stocked after the reclaim and never stocked again . i fish one of these ponds and they are a beautiful trout . these trout are born there . when i fish the pond i only catch brook trout and nothing else. this is worth the walk 3 miles. from what i have heard these brookies are a tupper lake hybrid. this pond was only stocked once after reclaim and never stocked again . 23 years ago.

[spot]

The disagreement is probably not one we'll ever solve.

I do have a brother who is a biologist, though, if that counts for anything.

The long-term problem with stocked trout is a lack of genetic diversity, so even after they spawn and you have pond-bred offspring you still haven't got what you had before, and the rest of the ecosystem is still left to recover itself, which it might never truly do.

My main point is that poisoning or draining a body of water to kill it and start over should be an absolute last resort, and that I really want there to be more options to choose from.

[fishy1]

i understand where you are coming from. but what other options could they do? i am not in disagrement with you at all just dont know what the right answer is. i dont like walking back to a trout pond 3 miles and catching little tiny sunnies or perch. i am in there to catch trout .
some of the ponds i am going to target this year are over 3 miles in and im a worm fisherman so i dont want to be catching sunnies suckers bullhead and other species.

[troutcrazy]

Even the stocked brook trout in the Adirondack ponds are VERY different from our VT stockies.  I agree that VT stockies taste like catfood.  That's because they are stocked as adults and caught the same year. 
ADK brookies are stocked as fry or fingerlings, and they grow in the pond for years.  They have pink/orange flesh from eating crustaceans and they are some of the most delicious fish I've ever eaten.
NY State also works with "heritage strains" of brook trout in some areas.
I wish we could reclaim some ponds here in VT, but it's probably not feasible because people live on most of our lakes.  Brookies just can't survive and reproduce if bass and pike are present.  There's one remote pond in VT that was reclaimed maybe 1960.  Recently, some @#$hole put bass in there, and it's pretty much finished as a brook trout pond.  I was really sad to find those bass after hiking in hoping for brookies.

Really interesting article, though!

[fishy1]

trout crazy yes the ny strains are a beautiful fish full of fight and the meat is pink/orange flesh and delicious eating. that is why many of us walk back to the ponds and fish for trout. we dont want to catch bass as you say champlain has plenty of them or perch sunnies for that fact. brookies cant compete with those fish. i have seen trout in ponds on ice out working the shores and splashing on shore in the rocks searching for crayfish salamanders and other crustaceans they are searching for. i am going to video this feeding act next time i get a chance. its an amazin thing to watch. these are not just brookies but browns and rainbows also. walking in ponds 3  miles to catch trout and then catch perch, bass, pike or whatever is no fun. especially when i am bringing kids in to fish with me. we pretty much know what ponds to fish now and none of them are near roads because all of them have perch bullhead sunnies and so on. they are all stunted also. on a short note i encounter many vermonters fishing over here now and its probably because of what you stated better tasting and wild trout. seems every year a new state record is now broken for brookies.

[Eaglecrg]

I read on another discussion board that the Professor that did this study has been against reclamation of ponds for a long time.  His methodology was brought into question and questions were raised about this being a self fulfilling study.  I'm not weighing in on that argument, just reporting what I read.  That being said, Adirondack Brook Trout are certainly in much more danger of extinction than perch! 

[troutcrazy]

fishy1, I usually head over there a few times a year and carry my canoe into remote ponds.  I'm really looking forward to ice-out ADK brookies!

[Light liner]

Next year one of my goals is to fish in NY, sounds like there is some some really good fishing over there.

[ice fiend]

When i went to paul smiths college there was a pond nearby that brookies that commonly ran in the 13-19 inch range

[fishy1]

fishy1, I usually head over there a few times a year and carry my canoe into remote ponds.  I'm really looking forward to ice-out ADK brookies!

so am i. but ice out wont be until may i beleive. for the time being im fishing rivers for steelheads and browns. im doing okay but the water needs to warm up a few degrees. 3 inches of snow this morning. maybe ill see you over here what are you driving for a vehicle? i caught my biggest brookie ever last year 18 plus inches and would like to catch another one. lots of 12 and 13 inchers.

[spot]

What I'm talking about with hatchery fish is not how they taste. Sure, when they first hit the water they taste like what they've been eating.

After a while they start to taste as good as wild trout and even look like wild trout, and their offspring will be indistinguishable from wild trout, however that doesn't mean that, at the genetic level, they are wild trout.

The stocked fish will be from only one or two adult pairings, and therefore if you're populating an entire body of water, your entire population will be of that same limited gene pool.

As a fisherman, you'll never see the difference, but in terms of disease resistance and overall population health, they will never be what the pond had before, and that doesn't begin to discuss the other aquatic life that's been killed off too, and has to come from somewhere.

The pond may look the same to an observer, but it will probably never be.

Reclamation should be considered the nuclear option.

That is all. 

[BomoBrown]

Perch taste better than brookies!

I have never disagreed with a post more then this.  I really enjoy perch but adore brook trout.

[fishingidjit]

I have never disagreed with a post more then this.  I really enjoy perch but adore brook trout.

 

[Fish Farmer]

The stocked fish will be from only one or two adult pairings, and therefore if you're populating an entire body of water, your entire population will be of that same limited gene pool.

This seems like an assumption, although I know little about how eggs are procured for ADK ponds. Even at a hatchery level, unless you are dealing with a handful of an endangered species, I would assume the broodline would consist of more than one or two adult pairings. It would be unfortunate if that was the case for a stocked and restoration situation.

[spot]

biggest problem with hatchery fish is the lack of genetic diversity.

it's reality. There are limits to what they can do.

They also have budgets.

**

in other news: brook trout are my favorite fish.

Also: people who put fish into ponds where they don't belong should be killed. 

There's a pond out in the mountains here that has trout in it. Unfortunately it also has pickerel in it (a relatively new development) and I've been doing my part, taking home a stringer of small pickerel for a fish fry every time I get out there (the pond doesn't have large ones).

Small pickerel taste quite good, and the bones are not a problem until they get above a foot or so.

Unlikely that my activities alone will eliminate the problem, but the pickerel population doesn't seem to be growing.

[fishy1]

those pickeral are under 12 inches when you catch them and you eat them? thats simply amazin. pickeral are excellent eating but i wouldnt think there would be any meant on them that small. how did the pickeral get in the mountain pond with the trout? is the pond stocked annually with trout?

[spot]

The pond has always had trout... apparently somebody thought it also needed pickerel because about 10 years ago they suddenly appeared. 

&*&^$#$#

They have similar meat content to perch at that size.

The trout population is not what it used to be, but it seems like it's stopped shrinking (never stocked as far as I know). I don't keep trout from there these days and have switched to targeting the pickerel.

[vthonkerhtr]

When i went to paul smiths college there was a pond nearby that brookies that commonly ran in the 13-19 inch range

oh ya they loved lake clear wobblers and worms!  also loved smelt from lake clear