Is a trophy from any other water, still a trophy? Does it still smell of fish?

[sprkplug]

I would wager that if one had the time and inclination to visit fishing forums from all 50 states, they would soon discover a topic common to all....the debate over private water vs. public water, where trophy fish are concerned. I'm always curious to hear other anglers thoughts on the matter, and to try and understand the reasoning that led them to their own conclusions.

By far, the most common opinion appears to be that private water fish are not held in the same high regard as public water fish, even if the size is exactly the same. Why is this? Many factors play a role in determining whether or not a fish will attain trophy status. Available food, water quality, genetics, and lifespan all play a role, whether it be private, or public water. So why the apparent disparity?

[Curt]

One huge factor. Fishing pressure. Ponds can be almost virgin sometimes.

[Stinkybaits]

Most pond fish are on special diets and it's easy to catch fish from a pond. Throw a handful of food out they come running a feeding frenzy. The favorite part of the sport of fishing for me is the hunt. I love the search it's like mushroom hunting always changing up year after year. I gave up deer hunting a 30 minute trip shoot a deer didn't fill my itch. Tracking fish is alot more challenging to me and like deer fish have paths imo so I love the challenge in figuring out the paths the food they are eating and all the other things that make a fish react the way they do. It's the whys followed by the how's that fuel my fire! Ponds.... Ponds are just ponds like cattle raised in captivity.

[stripernut]

If I raised a monster fish in a fish tank and did not let other anglers fish and then I went and caught the fish, I for one would not compare that fish to one that is caught in water that is open to the general public... If you went to a salmon farm and fished the tanks and landed a trophy, should it be held in the same regard as a salmon running up a wild river? Again, I don't think so. So it comes down to degree in terms of the "openness" of the waters, to me if you are going to compare your fish (trophy) to any one else fish, then the playing field would need to be the same or at least close... But if you are fishing waters that are some how "closed" to other anglers, then how can you compare your fish to theirs? Like hunting in a pen, if it makes you feel like you got the big one, fine for you, but don't compare it to some one that got it out in the open...

[RoeBoat]

Some ponds get pounded.  A local pond is the only body of water that I've know to be fished out.

I think the ability to control many of the items you listed play an important role on a private body of water.

You can run all over wawasee chasing jumbos, and they are there, but I will challenge you to put a pile on the ice like Taxi1 does!

[RoeBoat]

Stinky, I don't agree with your deer analogy.  Unless your comparing it to 5" gils, which I know you don't target.  I assume you don't have deer pictures like you do fish pictures.  I also assume you don't have 1000's of inches of antlers on your walls or piled in the corner of a barn somewhere.  I know guys who do, and they are just as serious about there hunting as you are your fishing!  It's not easy putting big bucks on the ground year after year, unless you have a fenced "pond"!!!!!

[sprkplug]

If I raised a monster fish in a fish tank and did not let other anglers fish and then I went and caught the fish, I for one would not compare that fish to one that is caught in water that is open to the general public... If you went to a salmon farm and fished the tanks and landed a trophy, should it be held in the same regard as a salmon running up a wild river? Again, I don't think so. So it comes down to degree in terms of the "openness" of the waters, to me if you are going to compare your fish (trophy) to any one else fish, then the playing field would need to be the same or at least close... But if you are fishing waters that are some how "closed" to other anglers, then how can you compare your fish to theirs? Like hunting in a pen, if it makes you feel like you got the big one, fine for you, but don't compare it to some one that got it out in the open...

Okay, fair enough. The "canned hunting" comparison is almost always brought into the picture when this conversation takes place. I might argue that every fish we have in our ponds and lakes here in Indiana is "penned"....it just depends upon the size of the pen. A hoosier whitetail could run to Missouri if it had a notion too, not so a trophy bluegill, irregardless of whether the pond it resides in is public or private.

How about this? Say I have a house on a public lake, and I walk down to my dock and feed the bluegills every day. After 3-4 years, I start catching a glimpse of a real giant....an honest 12 incher. One day you pull up in your boat while I'm feeding those fish,  and start casting towards my dock. And you catch the biggest bluegill you or anyone in your boat has ever seen. A trophy sized, once-in-a-lifetime catch, coming out of public water. Now what? It came from public water, is it really a trophy?

[Stinkybaits]

Stinky, I don't agree with your deer analogy.  Unless your comparing it to 5" gils, which I know you don't target.  I assume you don't have deer pictures like you do fish pictures.  I also assume you don't have 1000's of inches of antlers on your walls or piled in the corner of a barn somewhere.  I know guys who do, and they are just as serious about there hunting as you are your fishing!  It's not easy putting big bucks on the ground year after year, unless you have a fenced "pond"!!!!!

I never targeted bucks and could care less about big deer. I hunted North Manchester area for years and it's stupid hunting. Never wore Ccamo never got in a stand walk out kick one up shoot in the field as they stopped to look. It just wasn't a challenge but it's primo land over 200 acres of river that goes next to that town starting at the old wood bridge. I didn't have deer paths it was deer highways. My target deer were the ones I could carry out like sacks of grain. Veil nice young abs tender. Bigger females were used for sausage again just for food. Trophy bucks never shot at could care less about a rack on the wall I'd rather have tons of population so I never killed the studs. I have tons of people that hunt that don't like the meat so I just get the meat now that way. Not many farmers hunt in North Manchester opening day of gun you may hear a shot on a busy day. They all raise cattle could care less about hunting.

[bubbagill]

To me pond fish tho nice sized will never command the respect from me that fish of the same size from public water will.  For several reasons.   Number one is the size of the body of water.  To me the guy who finds and catches Quality fish on a 200 plus acre public lake worked for the fish, much different scenario on a 2 acre pond.  The second reason is the level of human control on ponds as compared to public water.  Like not allowing people to fish, feeding the fish, maximizing weed growth, maintaining chemical balances in the pond the list goes on and on.  The third reason would be the lack of fishing pressure on private ponds as compared to public water.  The fourth would be the introduction of man made genetically modified fish in ponds.  I understand that no one can make the fish bite any where, but to me that is the only similarity between ponds and public water, it really is " fish in a barrel".  Just my two cents, and it probably ain't worth that much lol.

[sprkplug]

Thanks bubbaG, appreciate you taking the time to weigh in.

Some points to consider:
There seems to be a couple misconceptions concerning raising fish in a pond, the first being that if the pond manager does everything right, the water will be teeming with trophy fish. Not even close. That 2 acre pond may indeed produce numbers of big bluegills, but NOT trophies...everything has to line up just right for that to happen, and even then you may end up with ONE trophy fish, with a percentage being above average, some being average, and yes, some even below average. I have been growing bluegills for almost 6 years now, and I have yet to produce a single trophy. Bigger bluegills than many anglers have seen, yes, but no trophies.

So if a 2 acre BOW yields one trophy fish, than maybe a 200 acre BOW will produce 100? Not likely, but for the sake of discussion let's say it does. So which is more difficult: chasing 100 trophy fish over 200 acres, or one fish over 2 acres? Looks about the same to me.

 There also seems to be a notion implying that limiting access to the fish (private water) will produce bigger fish. Okay, then why the concern that a panfish limit will cause the fish to stunt? No two lakes are the same, and what works for one may not work for another. But the idea that reducing fishing pressure will make for bigger fish is no more guaranteed than the theory saying a limit will lead to stunting. It just doesn't work like that.

Feeding the fish. Yep, I feed my fish when conditions allow. Purina Aquamax, to be exact. But, pelleted feed offers convenience, relatively low cost, and it produces results. If the same results could be achieved by boosting natural forage, such as Fathead minnows or PK grass shrimp, and never feeding that first pellet, what would the consensus be? Same results, no hand feeding, all natural forage? Still "cheating"?

As far as genetically modified fish, I have no experience in that area. I keep both northern strain bluegills, and hybrid bluegills...a cross between a green sunfish and a bluegill, which occurs naturally in waters where both species reside.
I've heard the "fish in a barrel" analogy for years. Curiously, most who mention it have never fished in one of those "barrels", at least not one where the management techniques were optimized for potential trophy production. Think about it....the fish are fed to near satiation every day, they aren't "hungry", for lack of a better term, and in my own case they are subject to intense catch and release policies....my fish do everything but check my offerings for a pulse. They have become very highly conditioned, and are extremely wary. Far more than tight lipped bluegills on a public lake.

[Hack58]

Years ago we used to fish almost exclusively on a 65 acre lake that belonged mostly to my dads cousin but also had 2 other farms joining it. Probably 20 or so people fished it but it was rare to see anyone else when you went out.  It was nothing at all to catch 50 to 100 bass in the 3-4lb range and the biggest I ever weighed out of there was 7lb 2oz.  I would hold a 5lb fish coming from Sylvan or the James chain today in much higher regard than I do the 7 from that private lake.

I guess maybe for me the definition of a "trophy" be it fish, deer, bird, or whatever has less to do with dimensions and more to do with circumstance and memories. I came very close to mounting a bass my 5 year old grandaughter caugh last summer. Even though it weighed less than 4lbs trust me it was a trophy in the truest sense of the word.

[walleyepac]

Your definitely not comparing Apple's to Apple's here with a pond and public waters, 2 completely different scenarios, for an example, my father in law owns a couple ponds, (1 acre), the avg bluegill, not hybrid is between 8 3/4 ,/, 9" ,that's the avg, I don't fish it except to take my children because there's no challenge involved, on the other hand, try to grow trophy white crappie in a  pond, not likely,so  really it's not a fair comparison,
 

Here's another example,let's say were going to have a walleye tournament through the ice, here in Indiana on so and so date, starting at 6 AM. - Ends at 3 Pm, you can fish anywhere you want as long as your at the weigh station at 3 Pm
The 1st place I'm going is right back home and fishing my pond, and in 20 minutes I'll have my 6 fish ,4 lbs avg ,now I understand those are not trophy , but will still be close to winning, (case and point) my pond is probably stocked better than any lake , and it's like fishing out of a barrel

[bigr]

A trophy to me is not just size but as mentioned before, memory, scenario,challenge. I think if you put the same amount of time on a body of water that is private and has large fish that only a select few or members can fish is alot like a canned hunt and would lessen the trophy status for me. 

[Stinkybaits]

A pond is like a caged hunt imo. Great source for fresh fish they still taste the same.

[sprkplug]

A pond is like a caged hunt imo. Great source for fresh fish they still taste the same.

Still with the canned hunt? Searching for ONE trophy fish in a 1 or 2 acre pond? Guys, there is a huge difference between fishing a well stocked private pond, and fishing a private pond that is managed for trophy production. You think you've seen tight lipped bluegills now....these types of ponds often have a way of letting the air out of your sails real quick. As I read through many of the threads on the board right now, I think I may see where a big part of the misunderstanding comes from. There exists the idea that panfish are just that...made for the pan, not the wall. And that's fine. If you're happy with numbers of 8-9" bluegills for the freezer, sure, you can catch those all day long in public water right now. Nothing special there, as those aren't big bluegills.

To me, if I were using length as a gage, a big bluegill has to exceed 10", a memorable needs to go 11", and a trophy has to top 12". And yes, some of us no longer measure our panfishing prowess by numbers of fish. I used too also, but discovered that the real challenge is in hunting down those rare trophies. And yes, I have been to several states chasing trophy bluegills....just like those "sport" fish. A 2 lb bluegill is the equivalent of a 12 lb largemouth...how many of those do you have hanging on the wall? And there's no challenge there???

And lets be honest with ourselves. I've seen a few 11 inch bluegills on this board from time to time, and if you were to ask the anglers that caught those fish if they were deliberately targeting a particular specimen, ( as in they had seen it before, and knew it swam in that BOW), they would say no. For all of our supposed fish catching ability, and skill, and secret baits, and years of experience.....a trophy catch is most often sheer luck. Numbers of average fish? Okay, maybe some skill there. Hunting down and catching a targeted, single specimen? Definitely some skill there. Same thing with trophy deer hunting...game cameras show hunters that a massive buck is in the area, so they target it. Those hunters know a big deer is close, where as anglers we don't know if a trophy BG swims in our favorite water or not, unless we see it, or have caught and released it before. Mostly luck, not skill.

Last year, I saw in one of my pond's a massive bluegill. It didn't appear every day, but just often enough that I began to look for it, and attempt to entice it. No luck, she was having none of it. SHE.....as in this fish will spawn in a few weeks, provided she survived the winter. Obviously she will be at her heaviest then, so that's when I would like to catch her. Problem is we're talking one fish, in a 1 acre pond. And unlike males, female bluegills only spend a few minutes on the nest. I want to catch that fish as late in the pre-spawn period as I can. Remember that story of that giant Cali largemouth, Dottie? Those guys were obsessed with pursuing ONE bass, as they KNEW it swam there. There's your challenge, public or private water.

[marmooskapaul]

Here is a question?   The record largemouth bass for Indiana....over 14lb...caught  in a private lake. Not taking anything away from Mrs. Shultz...and that's a huge fish..in any state. It's still the state record...but not as impressive as if it came from Patoka or Lemon or Monroe? Yes or No?
Paul

[sprkplug]

Here is a question?   The record largemouth bass for Indiana....over 14lb...caught  in a private lake. Not taking anything away from Mrs. Shultz...and that's a huge fish..in any state. It's still the state record...but not as impressive as if it came from Patoka or Lemon or Monroe? Yes or No?
Paul

Thanks Paul. To me that catch is just as impressive as if it had come from public water. Actually, since we're talking largemouths, I think it might be even more impressive, coming from a private pond....if, by pond, we're talking something less than 5-6 acres? Getting a bass to that size in a small BOW is no mean feat. It must've eaten nearly every one of its siblings over the years!

Guys, it's not a given that private water will produce record fish. Or even big fish for that matter.....that's why pond consultants have work available year-round! There's a lot more to it than stocking fish, feeding them, and then getting your photo in the newspaper. How many here have seen a trophy bluegill come from a pond? An honest 2 lb, 12" bluegill? Lots of private ponds here in the state, shouldn't these things be swimming everywhere if it were that simple?

[Jigmup]

The 1st place I'm going is right back home and fishing my pond, and in 20 minutes I'll have my 6 fish ,4 lbs avg ,now I understand those are not trophy , but will still be close to winning, (case and point) my pond is probably stocked better than any lake , and it's like fishing out of a barrel

You don't even have to fish for them...I think he has them trained!

Many, many moons ago, I use to frequent a gravel pit (no not Leesburg) because of all the giant bass and crappie it held. One day I nailed a 6 lb. 3 oz. smallmouth out of it and had it mounted in a scene under glass. It doesn't matter if I hit some of the worlds top smallie fisheries...St. Clair, Vermillion...it doesn't matter. I will probably never catch another that big. Add to that the fact that I was like 23 years old and a Bass fanatic and it didn't matter what body of water it was. A fish like that blurs the line between public and private.

[bubbagill]

Sprkplug I can see and appreciate your passion and respect for the pond topic but my opinion is unswayed to me it's fish in a barrel.   Not even remotely comparable from ponds to public water to me.  Fishin in a barrel

[stripernut]

Putting aside the fish in a barrel part of the comparison, to me if the public can't fish it, then it can't be compared to other waters. Unless it is open to every one, then you are not comparing it to every one! Calling a fish a trophy is comparing it to other fish, that anglers have caught.

[High Tide]

Sorry Sprk, that's like a catholic school playing aganist public school in sports. Your odds of success increase dramatically in a controlled environment (especially if the owner of the pond hired a consultant).

[bullgill]

Really kind of a dumb question...a trophy is a trophy...but it has an asterisk on it if caught from a private pond.  If it is a public pond, where everyone has access to catch this trophy then there is no need for the asterisk.  Really kind of simple! 

I guess best anology is the baseball records broken in the drug years, yes they did break the records but was everyone on the same level playing field?  Dont think so!

[sprkplug]

Sprkplug I can see and appreciate your passion and respect for the pond topic but my opinion is unswayed to me it's fish in a barrel.   Not even remotely comparable from ponds to public water to me.  Fishin in a barrel

No problem bubbaG, I asked for opinions on the subject and I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the matter! Until an angler has fished a highly managed trophy pond, he or she will most likely never understand the difference between catching a wheelbarrow full of 9" gills out of the neighborhood pond, vs. pursuing that one trophy gill out of a similar sized BOW. My main reason for starting this thread was to shed a little light on what constitutes a trophy fish, AND to try and explore the reasoning that states: "I'm unable to fish there, so that fish doesn't count".

 Access to the fish themselves, (or lack thereof) in no way, shape or form, takes anything away from the size of the fish.

Nice smallie Jigmup! 6+ pounds is a great fish!

[sprkplug]

Really kind of a dumb question...a trophy is a trophy...but it has an asterisk on it if caught from a private pond.  If it is a public pond, where everyone has access to catch this trophy then there is no need for the asterisk.  Really kind of simple! 

I guess best anology is the baseball records broken in the drug years, yes they did break the records but was everyone on the same level playing field?  Dont think so!

Dumb?

Okay, the state of Indiana mandates that in order to be eligible for record fish status, fish that are on a feeding program are ineligible. HOWEVER....fish taken on private water are absolutely eligible. So there you go? Restricted access to the fish does NOT take away from the size of the fish, in the state's eyes?

[sprkplug]

Sorry Sprk, that's like a catholic school playing aganist public school in sports. Your odds of success increase dramatically in a controlled environment (especially if the owner of the pond hired a consultant).

Thanks HT, could you elaborate on what constitutes a controlled environment?

[stripernut]

Until an angler has fished a highly managed trophy pond, he or she will most likely never understand the difference between catching a wheelbarrow full of 9" gills out of the neighborhood pond, vs. pursuing that one trophy gill out of a similar sized BOW.

I have had the pleasure of fishing some incredible private ponds for huge browns in CO, a great time on the fly rod, but I would not compare that to catching the same size fish that week on the Colorado... Apples and oranges...

[sprkplug]

I have had the pleasure of fishing some incredible private ponds for huge browns in CO, a great time on the fly rod, but I would not compare that to catching the same size fish that week on the Colorado... Apples and oranges...

If were to lay two perfectly identical, trophy browns out together, one from private and the other from public water, could you walk up and tell the difference? If I were upstream of you, unbeknownst by you, and released a trophy brown from private water and it swam down and engulfed your fly, and you subsequently landed the largest brown you have ever caught, would you be proud of the accomplishment? Would it detract from your experience when I walked up and told you what had actually just happened?

Remember, we're not talking big fish....we're talking once-in-a-lifetime, trophy fish.

[stripernut]

If were to lay two perfectly identical, trophy browns out together, one from private and the other from public water, could you walk up and tell the difference? If I were upstream of you, unbeknownst by you, and released a trophy brown from private water and it swam down and engulfed your fly, and you subsequently landed the largest brown you have ever caught, would you be proud of the accomplishment?

Remember, we're not talking big fish....we're talking once-in-a-lifetime, trophy fish.

It is not the fish, it is the fact that it was not a level playing field... If it was about the fish and it's size, what would it matter if I caught it out of the tank at Bass Pro? For some it might not, but for me and many others, it makes all the difference.

Would it detract from your experience when I walked up and told you what had actually just happened?

Yes it would, very much so, I would be very disappointed. If I was inclined to mount fish, I would not mount one from private waters or the one you just described.

I also don't think much of fish that are caught by guys chasing around stocking trucks either...

[bubbagill]

Stripernut you hit the nail on the head.  I agree it's not all about the fish.  Ok you walk our 15 yards onto the ponds honey hole drill a hole sit down catch a trophy.  Or do you spend years learning a lake and spend countless days walking all over Hells half acre in pursuit of the trophy that you believe resides in this lake?  I know which one in my mind took more skill, drive, and pursuit.  Just not the same.  Not even apples to oranges let alone apples to apples. 

[sprkplug]

It is not the fish, it is the fact that it was not a level playing field... If it was about the fish and it's size, what would it matter if I caught it out of the tank at Bass Pro? For some it might not, but for me and many others, it makes all the difference.

Yes it would, very much so, I would be very disappointed. If I was inclined to mount fish, I would not mount one from private waters or the one you just described.

I also don't think much of fish that are caught by guys chasing around stocking trucks either...

I think I see. If I'm understanding you correctly, it's not a physical, tangible element ( you acknowledge that the physical size of the fish is the same, irregardless of it's origin). Rather it's a mental issue...as an angler, you want to be the one to catch a fish that the fellow standing next to you didn't? I get that, but the first thought that pops into me head is....why does that matter? Where is the skill, or the bragging point, at being angler # 326 who happened to be in the right place at the right time, and caught a trophy or record fish? As I stated before, I believe a great many record fish are caught by accident..we've all seen photos of little kids with Snoopy poles holding gigantic fish, right?

I can state with absolute certainty that the Indiana record bluegill was caught by accident...I interviewed the angler who caught it. he stepped out of the vehicle, walked down to the water's edge, and made one cast with a cricket and a bobber. Bam...fish on. ONE cast. His exact words to me? "It was sheer, dumb luck" Public water, caught in 1972, accidentally.

As far as a level playing field, if you decide to spend the day pursuing big fish (of any species), do you stop at the first public BOW you come across, or do you head to another, particular, public lake where you know that species runs larger than "average"? Maybe you have knowledge that other anglers do not, in this regard? The playing field is already unlevel, as you have tipped the scales in your favor by choosing a location known by you to have bigger fish.

I know what some are probably thinking...."I put the time in, did my research, spent my gas money, and drilled a lot of holes to find that spot.... I earned it myself" Yes you did, and in doing so you have increased your chances when compared to other anglers who haven't done what you did. Unlevel playing field. Once on your spot, do you post photos and locations here on the shanty, in order to allow other public water anglers the same opportunity to catch those bigger fish? No? Too many lurkers, afraid of some trashing the ice, catching those fish, loosing your parking spot? Not announcing every single detail to the general public keeps the odds in your favor.

Guys, managing a private pond is the same thing. It's a way to try and increase your chances. The question becomes, what is acceptable, and what is not? For every minute of research a public water angler puts in, I can match it with time, effort, and $$$ of my own, in a private pond.

Remembering also, that an angler has to KNOW somehow that a trophy fish swims in a particular BOW, in order for his or her skill to even enter into the picture. Accidental trophy catches, while enjoyable, do not necessarily reflect skill, drive, or pursuit. Targeted individuals, are another story.