Carbon Monoxide

[seedman76]

I hope to get some clarity on the concerns over carbon monoxide when using a portable heater inside my hub style pop up.  I've seen several posts where CO is mentioned but in a search of the threads couldn't find any real discussion about CO risks.  The propane heater I use is a "sunflower style heater."  Specifically it's a 15,000BTU/hr single heater I mount to a 20lb. propane tank.  It does have a safety shutoff that cuts off the gas flow should the heater go out.  Of course the owner's manual of this heater talks about how it is for "outdoor use only" and "should never be operated inside any enclosure, including tents."  How much concern is CO inside a ice house?  What should a person do to minimize the risk?  My particular concern is that I often fish with my 3 and 5 year old kids for 3-4 hours at a time.  Thanks.

[Jigger]

Only use the ones for indoor use only such as the buddy heaters , carbon monoxide is considered the silent killer and often as the cases you don't realize it till it is too late.I'm glad you are checking before taking your kids out , I would spend the money on a good indoor use heater and have fun fishing with the kids.

[seedman76]

Thanks for the info.  I've seen the Mr. Buddy heaters and know they're popular but didn't realize it was because you can use them indoors.  I know the risks/symptoms of CO but was confused over what to use for a heater as I know there's several options guys use.  Other thoughts from anyone? 

[bigmike7272]

You could keep the door unzipped a little or open the window a bit to allow more oxygen in. If you're really concerned though, just buy another heater that's safer.

[Burtess]

Being OK to use indoors has nothing to do with the units possibility to produce CO.  Anything that burns any carbon based fuel can produce CO in certain conditions.  Best thing is to leave a vent cracked and not to seal up the skirt too well, let some fresh air in all the time.

Buddy heaters can produce CO just like the others.

Burt

[thomasthepikehunter]

The buddy heaters are safer. Bring you sunflower for a few trips until you are sure the buddy heater works. Many people love them. I no longer use the buddy heater, as after a year it wouldn't heat hardly at all. I actually don't like propane. I gave it up. Now I either don't use a heater, or I have a wood stove in my skid house. I often fish with people who love the sunflower, as it can easily double as a cooking stove. They carry a carbon monoxide alarm with them, and put in in the portable's pocket when fishing. Your biggest concern will be sleeping overnight. I don't trust any kind of stove, in that case you need an alarm.

[Lifeguard]

My cousin is a firefighter/emergency rescue and he has been taught that those sunflowers are one of the worst style of heaters out there for burning the oxygen out of a space and start to produce CO.  If you are using them in an enclosed area (not recommended), you should definitely have a carbon monoxide alarm.  A buddy style heater is much better, but still not fool proof.  A battery powered CO alarm may just save your life, it did mine.  Just a quick side note about CO, even if there is still plenty of oxygen left in the room, if there is a high level of CO it will still kill you as the lungs will actually absorb the CO over oxygen.  Also, CO is a heavier gas and therefore will sink to the lower points of an area.  Your CO detector should be placed low, below the level of your head if you are going to be sleeping.  Those CO/smoke detector combos are useless as a combined alarm.  If you place it high to detect smoke, you are dead before the CO concentration up by the ceiling gets bad enough to set off the alarm, and if you place it low for CO, it won't activate for smoke until it's too late.  Get one of these, it's battery operated and I can tell you from experience at my off grid cabin, they work:

http://www.amazon.com/Kidde-900-0089-Nighthawk-Carbon-Monoxide/dp/B000KK507I/ref=sr_1_23?s=hi&srs=2594777011&ie=UTF8&qid=1420668979&sr=1-23&keywords=kidde+carbon+monoxide+detector

[hardwatercrazy]

Isn't one of the safety features of a buddy is they have a built in sensor for tip over and oxygen?

[Rebelss]

A Buddy Heater is NOT safe. All they have is a low oxy-depletion sensor, which is NOT the same as a CO detector. BIG difference. A few of my earlier posts on it. Trust me, I  was a certified EMT Instructor/LEO that was trained in and dealt with this continually. A few earler posts:


Re: shanty heat help
« Reply #1 on: Jul 02, 2011, 09:13 AM »
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Yes...that would be big enough to heat that square footage, as a 9000-10,000 BTU heater will heat up to a gross total of 200 sq ft, and you're way below that.
NEVER heat an unvented shack!! Put vents in the top wall, and down by the floor, to provide air movement, as heat will rise and CO (carbon monoxide) will be moved by the updraft. Put a CO detector in; is your life worth 20 bucks? People think that some of the portable propane heaters out there on the market that have low oxygen shut-off are totally safe, too...not true. They shut down when there is a shortage of oxygen unable to sustain combustion. CO can still be present in great quantities at this point. I see so many posts on this during ice time, we did an experiment the other year. I ran my heater with the low-oxy shutoff in my shack, with all vents closed. The heater shut off after awhile, at which point my CO detector measured 110 ppm. Anything over 50-70 ppm is considered unsafe and noticeable to your physical system. 150-200 ppm can cause nausea, unconsciousness, and eventually, death. I know, lots of people sleep in their shack with no problem...and a lot DO end up with a problem..if they live. I preach this because of all the misconceptions surrounding this, and the fact that my friend died from this.
Ever seen a person that died from CO poisoning? You'll never forget. As an ex-EMT, I saw a lot.Two fisherman  in my town last year spent a night in a porty that was heated by
those "safe" heaters. We found them the next afternoon. I use the portable  heaters, and they're great...just make sure you team them up with a CO detector!!!
Let's be safe this year, people!



Re: Father and Son Die
« Reply #17 on: Feb 19, 2014, 06:44 AM »
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For everyone's info: CO2 has never really hurt anyone. CO2 is carbon dioxide, makes your pop and beer fizzy. CO is Carbon Monoxide, the nasty thing that blocks oxygen entry into the Hemoglobin and kills. From an earlier post of mine to a person asking about it:

 When CO is inhaled, it combines with the oxygen carrying hemoglobin of the blood, to form carboxyhemoglobin (COHb). Once combined with your hemoglobin, that hemoglobin can't carry oxygen to your system. Being a smoker, you already have higher levels of COHb. Every time you walk away from there, you're leaving with some damage to your system from O depletion. I'll bet you're at a good PPM of 200-300, which is considered life-threatening after 2-4 hours, depending on your size. You'll feel really tired/sleepy when it's hitting you, which can be deceiving. You don't instantly pass out as believed. I've seen far too much of it in my occupation. It isn't worth it. Always have ventilation in your shack, and my advice is never run a lantern in it in conjunction with a heater. Ya, I know, lots of folks do, and depend on the oxy-deplete sensors on some heaters to protect them, believing they also shut off because of CO, which is not true. If you ever have to pull that distinctive cherry-red body of a person out of somewhere that's died from it, you'll never forget it. Been there, done that. Be safe, and be alive.


Symptoms Associated With a Given Concentration of COHb

10% COHb - No symptoms. Heavy smokers can have as much as 9% COHb.
15% COHb - Mild headache.
25% COHb - Nausea and serious headache. Fairly quick recovery after treatment with oxygen and/or fresh air.
30% COHb - Symptoms intensify. Potential for long term effects especially in the case of infants, children, the elderly, victims of heart disease and pregnant women.
45% COHb - Unconsciousness
50+% COHb - Death


Just be really careful out there, people. Get a CO detector and USE IT.

[hardwatercrazy]

Thanks rebelss!  Good info.  I WILL be buying a CO detector.

[Rebelss]

Thanks rebelss!  Good info.  I WILL be buying a CO detector.

Your welcome..please do. Saw too may that didn't....'nuff said. Lifeguard had great info for all, too.

[thomasthepikehunter]

Thats the thing, there is no "safe" heater, short of carrying out some kind of electronic heater. I've never seen anyone with one. CO detectors are the only way.

[Idahogator]

Mr Seedman 76, Ahem, as I've read, maybe a bit too much lately, the words "FOR OUT DOOR USE ONLY" equate to bulk storage tanks.  True, it's self defeating because they ice rapidly.  Best use a proper rated hose of a length allowing the tank to remain outside.  Best you ask someone where you get propane.   

Live long.     

[fowl_language]

Always have a CO meter wherever you are burning something to stay warm INSIDE of a shelter...of any kind.  If you are burning something like natural gas to create heat you're going to create an environment with CO, unless someone has 110 and an electric heater, get yourself a battery powered CO detector, they're cheap.  CO disperses equally in air so standing up or hitting the deck, doesn't do anything, it's orderless and just "puts you to sleep" not cool for those of us that like to enjoy a beer or two, tie the line to our finger and sack out!

I use mine in the shanty when planning long sits, or in my popup tent camper when using the heater.  Gives me more peace of mind to get a good night's sleep.

I use this model. Kidde KN-COPP-B usually find them for under $40.

[nocsious]

I have suffered from CO poisoning twice in my life and feel very lucky to be here.  The first instance was entirely preventable and involved a sunflower style heater in a portable ice shanty.  We banked up the snow really well around shelter forming a good seal.  I remember opening the door at some point to check some tipups and it was like someone suddenly turned on the lights.  My friend and I discussed this phenomenon but went back to fishing.  We packed up a short time later and made it home safe without realizing what had happened.  When I arrived home my mom accused me of being on drugs as I was generally lethargic.  I slept for about 12 hours and woke up with an extreme headache.  Finally a couple of years older and wiser we put it all together what had happened that day after reading about CO poisoning on a forum like this.

The 2nd time involved staying in a rental cabin on a lake in Minnesota.  During the night the water heater malfunctioned and billowed smoke and flames into the room.  It's very fortunate that the place didn't burn down and that I was sleeping next to an open window, but I did suffer some of the same lethargy and headache from the first encounter.

I'm paranoid about having enough ventilation now and I won't use a sunflower heater.

[Arctic Addict]

Carbon monoxide is a serious concern in an ice shanty.  If you are using an unvented heater, it is even a greater concern.  Your best protection is to use a direct vented heat source and a CO alarm.

[seedman76]

All, very good information.  Rebeless and Lifeguard, thank you for the detailed information.  Very helpful...not only do I want to protect myself but also my little kids.  Bottom line and to summarize all these posts the only real solution is to buy a battery operated CO alarm and use it.  A direct vented heater is great but not an easy option for many with pop-ups and portable shelters.  Same goes with leaving vents open, doors cracked, etc.  It may help a little but none of this provides the protection that a CO detector will.  I'll be buying one before I go out again.  I'm surprised this subject isn't talked about more amongst ice fishing enthusiasts.  Being new to ice fishing two years ago I've been given lots of advice but not once has anyone mentioned CO and using caution with a heater.  It wasn't until I read a post on iceshanty.com about winter camping in your ice house and the potential for CO that I started researching the subject more.  Everyone, thanks again for the information.  Hopefully lots follow it and take the advice to protect themselves with a CO detector.  Good fishing!