Done with Amsoil

[thomasthepikehunter]

I should start off with saying I have used Amsoil products in tons of different things, and feel it is some of the best available. With that said, I am totally disappointed in the company. As this is an ice fishing forum, almost everyone has dealt with 2 stroke oils for their augers. As many know (or should know) how good an oil is can be seen by how well it is certified. Two of the most common certifications are TCW3 and API TC. The first is for water cooled 2 strokes, the second air cooled 2 strokes. There are also many more that have different tests, but that doesn't matter here. My #1 gripe with Amsoil is their total lack of common sense. The most obvious example is posted right on the front of many of the bottles. Mix 100:1. I'm not going to get into an argument on whether this is ok for an auger. An ice auger is a low-output, low use engine, and 100:1 may be just fine. The idea that you can mix this at 100:1 and use it in "any 2 stroke for x, y, or z certification" (cant remember the exact ones listed) is complete bogus. First of all, you can't run 100:1 in any 2 stroke, you just cant. There are very few kinds of engines where 100:1 is "possibly" sufficient. The next in line is where they say you can use it in place of certain certifications. In the link I'll post is all the oils that are TCW3 certified, and guess what? Amsoil is not listed on there even ONCE! Out of all of their oils, NONE are TCW3 certified. I have a feeling if there is a list of other certifications, Amsoil would not be on theirs either. Here is the clincher, I have talked face to face with an Amsoil distributor, and they have said with absolute certainty that the oil is certified. The oil in question was Amsoil Saber outboard, and whether it was TCW3 certified. What kind of company tells you to run their oil in ridiculously thin mixtures, for all kinds of engines, and not even tests them! I don't care how good your product is. If the company is too cheap to properly test oil like any other company, and have distributors that will blatantly lie to your face, I want nothing to do with them.


https://www.nmma.org/certification/certification/oil/tc-w3.aspx

[dkfry]

All my Yamaha outboards that take pre-mix are specified to run 100:1. The expensive XD-100 oil from BRP is not on the list either. The whole TC-W3 is a pay to use money maker. You pay the money and you can put the stamp on your oil. Makes you wonder how many shotty oils get the TC-W3 rating just because they paid for it.

[jwetovick]

All my Yamaha outboards that take pre-mix are specified to run 100:1. The expensive XD-100 oil from BRP is not on the list either. The whole TC-W3 is a pay to use money maker. You pay the money and you can put the stamp on your oil. Makes you wonder how many shotty oils get the TC-W3 rating just because they paid for it.

X2. Have ran amsoil in many engines around my household with zero problems. My old jiffy 30 screams with the sabre oil mixed at 100:1. Run this same mix in weedeater and chainsaw as well with good results. They have been around a long time. Have not heard of many people that can say amsoil ruined an engine. As mentioned, just because they dont pay to be certified it dont scare me. If that is a deal breaker for someone then use something else.

[diesel2012]

So what brought all this on? Did you have a failure with something or did you just finally read the label and realize it wasn't certified? I don't use Amsoil Sabre but I do use Opti2 which, like Sabre, is a 100:1 mix ratio. It isn't TC whatever certified either. However, it does meet all manufacturer specs and is ISO compliant which in my opinion is better than any other certification out there. I run it at approximately 90:1 to 80:1 by the time i get done measuring it. All my two stroke engines love it. I have yet to hear a bad thing about Amsoil Sabre either. If you're going to bash a product due to some arbitrary certification atleast have an argument to present as to why its an issue...

[thomasthepikehunter]

What brought it on was talking face to face with an Amsoil dealer, and being lied to. Even after calling him out, he pointed at the bottle and said "see, for any TCW3 certifed applications." I'm not sure if you read my whole post, but I state I have used Amsoil many times, and it is some of the best there is. I have never had a failure with Amsoil, actually I've never had a failure with any 2 stroke. At least not to where the engine was ruined. I've only heard of one failure ever in person. A friend of mine had an auger that came from the factory running very lean. I'm not going to mention brand here. He used 100:1 Amsoil saber professional, and it ran good for about 4 years. Then his engine seized. Not really the oils fault. The real answer is to properly jet the carb, but California wont allow that. Would it still be running if it were mixed at manufacturing specs of 40:1? I would bet so. And that's the whole point, manufacturers state a specific ratio for a reason. While I'll admit they are usually on the safe side, running less than half the recommended oil is asking for trouble. It doesn't matter how good the oil is, it can only go so far. Would you run your car 2-3 quarts low on oil just because you are using the best oil you can get? I could pull out numerous reasons why you shouldn't lean out oil like that, but it really doesn't mean much to an auger with its 2 hp. Small engines like augers, chainsaws, weed wackers, etc. are generally considered to have light loads. They can usually last at 100:1. Outboards are also usually fine with their consistent temperatures and lower rpms. Anything else though is pushing it. 2 stroke lawn mowers won't last on 100:1. Neither will pit bikes, 4 wheelers, or go carts. They will self destruct in high performance engines like dirt bikes and snowmobiles. Against what Amsoil claims you cannot run the same fuel in a 32 cc chainsaw as you can a 250 cc dirtbike. It doesn't matter anyway, as Amsoil has nothing to back up those claims. Instead it uses ill-informed distributors to spread the lies. This is not the kind of company I want to support. There are many other companies with great products, that are possibly just as good as Amsoil. I support companies who produce quality products, has proof to back up their claims, and stands behind their products. While Amsoil produces good products, it has nothing but hearsay to back it up, and they don't stand behind their products at all. Well they do until someone ruins their engine running way too little oil. Its not really the product itself I have a problem with, its how the company chooses to promote it.

By the way Opti2 is iso-egd certified as far as I can tell.

[Idahogator]

Dear Thomasthepikehunter, Et AL,

                            I am compelled by my own integrity to inform all, of recently posted misstatements, to wit: Amsoil doesn't use distributors.
  Opposed to that, Amsoil uses Distribution Centers to expedite a timely delivery by placing them in various areas around the Planet.
  Amsoil has a dealer network, some Amsoil dealers service retail accounts, some Amsoil dealers attend the Amsoil University training/learning seminars in Superior WI, some Amsoil dealers are mechanics with their own shops and some Amsoil dealers have been Lifetime Dealers for very many years, until that option was discontinued many years ago.

    Any question(s) will be accurately answered by an Amsoil Technician or an Amsoil Chemist by calling (715)392-7101
    They are there during common sense, normal business hours in the Central Time Zone.



(It amazes me how a knowledgeable person, having proven to themself, the best products available, with the Gold Standard Warranty, would allow a lessor product to enter their equipment.
 I'm reminded of reading, "Woe is the man that strains at a gnat and swallows a mountain".   
 That just baffles me. 
 It shows me I haven't seen it all in 76 years, many of those years as a Lifetime Amsoil Dealer.)

       Thanks for reading.     

              Tom
   

[thomasthepikehunter]

Idahogator, I believe you are correct on the distributor thing. I think what I was thinking of was dealers. I'm talking about people who sell amsoil, and spread the name, and aren't necessarily a shop. It kind of disappoints me that you feel Amsoil is THE top oil, and the only thing you should run. You should know there is no best oil. If you've been around Amsoil for 76 years, you should have quite a voice in the company. Change the packaging, and quit making ludicrous claims of your product. Its that simple. Start treating Amsoil like the amazing product it is, rather than the snake oil you claim it to be.

[Dan J]

Idahogator, I believe you are correct on the distributor thing. I think what I was thinking of was dealers. I'm talking about people who sell amsoil, and spread the name, and aren't necessarily a shop. It kind of disappoints me that you feel Amsoil is THE top oil, and the only thing you should run. You should know there is no best oil. If you've been around Amsoil for 76 years, you should have quite a voice in the company. Change the packaging, and quit making ludicrous claims of your product. Its that simple. Start treating Amsoil like the amazing product it is, rather than the snake oil you claim it to be.

WOW!!! Let the games begin.

[Rebelss]

   

[ice dawg]

Been using Amsoil Saber Professional mixed 80:1 in all my 2 strokes for around 20 years with zero problems. I called Amsoil and talked to a petroleum engineer about the oil and why it can be used at such a ratio. After he explained why it works I never looked back. I think the experience I have had with this lubricant speaks for itself as the engines I use the mixture in recommend using ratios from 32:1to 50:1. I know other brands are out there, but have not found any reason to change brands. Each to his own when it comes to equipment I guess.

[Idahogator]

Idahogator, I believe you are correct on the distributor thing. I think what I was thinking of was dealers. I'm talking about people who sell amsoil, and spread the name, and aren't necessarily a shop. It kind of disappoints me that you feel Amsoil is THE top oil, and the only thing you should run. You should know there is no best oil. If you've been around Amsoil for 76 years, you should have quite a voice in the company. Change the packaging, and quit making ludicrous claims of your product. Its that simple. Start treating Amsoil like the amazing product it is, rather than the snake oil you claim it to be.

I'm sure there were some nice compliments mentioned, in my favor, thanks gents.

Sorry if I disappointed with what was mistaken as my emotions, aka, feelings, as regards The First in Synthetics, Amsoil. 

The first API approved automotive gas engine lubricant was on the market in 1972, just a few years after I fell off the turnip wagon.  Three years later I came to know of Al Amatuzio, a retired pilot from the USAF and his curiosity of what lubricant was keeping his Fighter jet flying. There is a lot more to his interesting story on CD.

I refuse to apologize for what I know to be facts, having proven through study of formulations and personal use of Amsoil products.

I'll make a feeble attempt to qualify myself:  Test engineer on the Lunar Lander Project, (they came back to Earth).

Lifelong mechanic, with abstract reasoning aptitude, graded nationwide of 99 percentile.

Automotive repair shop owner for longer than I care to state, finally retired.

Ranger, Florida Board of Parks and Historic Memorials, to many years in that humidity.

And as to using products of lessor quality than Amsoil, I can't afford it.

When I phone Amsoil to place an order, they ask for my dealer number, as that is the only connection I have with Amsoil and have no more say in policy than anyone, even you Thomasthepikehunter.

Thanks again, for reading.     

Tom

[UP jigstick]

As da young'uns would say, Oh Snap! 




Oh, and it's going to be a really loooong winter if this stuff is starting the end of August. 

[FISHFORPIKE]

I should not get wrapped up in this discussion - but.  Been using the AMSOIL Saber in my Rotax 503 powered ultralight for over 10 years - mixed 100:1.  What can I say, I and several others in the UL flying business won't use anything else at that ratio.  Trusting an oil mixed at 100:1 in something that puts you thousands of feet in the air is quite a testimonial.
Anyways - their claims are NOT absurd!
Leaving the best oil there is because of what some dealer may have said is what is absurd.  Sorry!
I wish I was on the ice. 

[MT204]

Been running Amsoil 100:1 in every 2 stroke engine I have owned since it came out. That would be snowmobiles, dirt bikes, weed eaters, chainsaws, boat motors and yes my ice auger.
Never have had a problem.
When I hear about engines seizing up I always wonder what caused them to seize up and what seized up. Was it the rings, piston, rod bearings or what?
Was it the oil, water in the gas, phase separation of the gas, water in the intake because of no air cleaner?
You mentioned that your friend had an engine running lean? Would that be the oil to gas mixture lean or the gas to air mixture lean?
Two different mixtures and they both effect the engine differently.
Say for example your engine is running a 50 to 1 oil mixture and you change to 100 to 1 oil mixture the engine fuel to air mixture will now be rich and you would have to rejet leaner on the jetting!
Someone gave you some misinformation blame the person not the product!
Chainsaws are not light use engines! Most run in some of the worst environments and under full load!
By the way an engine can be rejetted if the manufacturer so notes in in the mfg shop manual.
And really a 2 stroke lawn mower haven't seen one of those for years and years?

[Dan J]

I've been using Amsoil since the mid 70's in every 2 stroke engine at 100:1 with no problems. Also use Seafoam and Startron with non oxy gas. It's nice not having engine problems.

[Idahogator]

Gentlemen !     

Live long, and prosper.   

[fishlessman]

ill take the easy starts on frigid days and stick with amsoil

[Buckshots]

I'll stick with Amsoil also. To the OP, if you say it's some of the best out there, then why wouldn't you use it? Who cares what the bottle says or the rep. It's still a good product.

[chickenrancher1]

I am curious...why are guys mixing at 100:1 when the owners manual states 40:1???  Well in the case of a Jiffy at least.

[Idahogator]

Welcome to Iceshanty,  ChickenRancher1.   

We mix as we do, because science has proven the truth of the "Label" instructions.

It is your choice to gunk up an engine, not to worry though, Amsoil has a product to clean that mistake from within.   Amsoil Power Foam , better than a tune-up in a can.

Good luck the up coming season, CR.

                                                                     

[chickenrancher1]

Thank you.  I would only be concerned with the manufactures warranty being void if something unfortunate happened.

Best on the upcoming season to all who toil for the hard water thrill.

[thomasthepikehunter]

Chickenrancher1, there is no real reason to use less oil. Amsoil will tell you differently. You need 100:1 to keep your engine clean? Strange my auger isn't completely black inside after 30 years of running 40:1. Running less than the manufacturers ratio may void the warranty, as will using oil that is not certified. Amsoil claims it will cover the cost of damages while using their product. If you trust that, go ahead. You wan't to know something funny? I've seen multiple studies that proved more oil provides more power. The last one I read found a mix of 18:1 provided the most power. That was under extreme load (dyno testing), at full throttle however. In the case of an auger, it makes no real difference. If your carb is adjusted properly, 100:1 does not provide easier starting, does not make your engine cleaner, and it does not provide more power. My auger doesn't really smoke at all once warmed up, so I can't see how running 100:1 would provide any real benefit in the area of smoke. In terms of lubrication, 100:1 just does not provide enough. Under optimum conditions maybe. FISHFORPIKE Running 100:1 in that ultralight is straight up foolish. You are trusting your life to something you don't fully understand. I'll admit I don't know everything either. You are a prime example of why what Amsoil is doing is wrong. It might sound crazy on this board, but Amsoil is not the single best product out there. Motul, Castrol, Maxima, Penzoil, and many others make oil that is just as good as Amsoil. They each have something a little different, but used correctly, they are all about equal. Some work better in the cold, some smoke less, some are for air cooled motors, some for liquid cooled motors. None of them do it all, and none of them provide more than double the lubrication of the others.

[BaitBucket]

I used TruFuel in my auger. Worked great..
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-TruFuel-40-1-Pre-Oil-Mix-6525538/203571069

[Idahogator]

Grab your salt shaker folks and chew on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act

In the study of strange, new things, I warn you, never go past a word you don't understand.     

[FISHFORPIKE]

Don't know what to say - except - experience speaks for itself.  Taking risks such as can be life threatening is not in me, at least not past going up in the air.  So far landing have equaled takeoffs and that is after more than 15 years and 7500 hours of doing what you term foolish.  So be it.  I am still here and will continue to be an avid AMSOIL user.  There may well be oils that are as good but for my experience, I'm not willing to experiment.  Mind you, I am not the one that did the experimentation - others before me and setups in static testing took all the risk out of it for me.   
By the way, my wife feels that I am as foolish as you might.  But for different reasons.  I can't get her up in the air, or out on the ice. 

[Idahogator]

Well said, FFP.   

Knowledge replaces doubt and fear.     

[thomasthepikehunter]

There is no disadvantage to running more oil, so whats your point? Amsoil's push for 100:1 in every two stroke is reckless. Even if you do go your whole life without a problem, I guarantee you would have a healthier engine with the recommended oil ratio. Still 2t oil is only half the battle. Does anyone even want to touch Amsoil's claim of improved gas mileage in cars? I've seen anywhere from 6.5%-15% gains. Unless they somehow figured out how to avoid physics, its all smoke an mirrors. You can probably run plenty of two stroke oils at 100:1 and not have problems. The difference is decent companies realize not all engines are created equal. You don't see Klotz claiming their great smell makes your engine run better. I would argue in outright lubrication under extreme conditions, castor based oil is superior to synthetic. Many would agree with me. The two biggest names I know of are Castrol and Maxima. Neither claim 100:1 ratios in anything.

[UP jigstick]

Something about dead horses, too.   

[MT204]

Remember....it's all about science not your emotions!

[IceHutt]

I have used Amsoil in snowmobiles, weedeaters, chainsaws, blowers as well as ice augers and have never had a problem with any of them.  I also feel that the engines run cleaner and the spark plugs do not foul because of the synthetic oil properties.  It would appear that the real reason that the Amsoil contraversy came up was due to a conversation that went afoul with an Amsoil dealer.  Just because someone has a run in with a misinformed dealer of a product, does not make the product bad.  What solid proof do you have that Amsoil and the 100:1 mix is bad and deserves your degradation of the product based on your expert analysis?  I am sure many people will continue to buy and use Amsoil mainly due to the fact that it is a good sound product from a good sound company and they have had good results from using it.  If you feel that Amsoil is a bad product, then don't use it.  The rest of us users will most likely continue to have good results regardless of your expert opinion of the product.