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Author Topic: Defying the laws of thermodynamics  (Read 1409 times)

Offline jonnygorgo

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Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« on: Apr 14, 2014, 08:49 PM »
Today was mostly sunny and I would guess it hit 70 degrees on the shore of the lake I was working on.  My employee and I decided to try to catch some smelt, most likely for the last time.  The ice was hard and very textured due to the rain and sun.  As we got on the ice, we realized that it was warmer out there than on shore. A lot warmer. Like 20 degrees warmer.  It felt like a sauna. It was hard to believe. Has anyone else ever experienced this?

Offline HybridHunter

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #1 on: Apr 15, 2014, 09:36 AM »
On the underside of things, I believe that early spring/ice out, the warm water fish hold under the remaining ice due to it acting as a thermal blanket. The last couple weeks I've done a lot of scouting and research for myself to better learn about brown trout. I have followed the warm water straight to the ice, in which case the warmest was at the edge of the ice and open water, and is where we would start marking baitfish and trout.
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Offline fishermantim

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #2 on: Apr 15, 2014, 10:10 AM »
You must not get out and fish much during the winter.

Here's how it works in a nutshell:

I is a reflective substance. Ice crystals even more so.
When you have rotted ice (when ice begins to break apart in spring) you have snow/ice with the consistancy of a snowcone (or corn snow as we skiers used to call it.)
This rotted ice has MANY, MANY reflective surfaces. That is why you NEED to bring sunscreen on sunny days because of the reflected sun. How do you think people get sunburned on the ice or on the slopes? The sun's rays are hitting you more than once and that heats up the air in the process.

The biggest problem with this effect is that it is melting the ice above and below, at a faster rate.
The water is heated at the shoreline where the ice is thinnest, thus eroding the shore ice, and the air temps will melt and erode the surface ice which can cause a slushy mess to trudge through as the day wears on.

All in all, this time of year is when you have to decide if that next trip is worth the potential risk?
Heck, even though NH has some ponds and lake with over a foot of ice still left, you cannot reach the safe ice due to the shore ice eroded out 7-10 feet from shore.

These are my two basic spring rules I adhere to when ice fishing:
"When the ice goes grey, it's time to stay away." (ice is rotting and will be breaking up soon, maybe in days.)
"Melting shorelines are natures way of saying "Stay off the ice". (I haven't fallen through yet, and I do not want that to change EVER!!!)

If you can still safely access a waterway, just be aware of the changing conditions while you are on the ice, and be safe!
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Offline jonnygorgo

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #3 on: Apr 16, 2014, 09:41 AM »
You must not get out and fish much during the winter.

You are right. I am only on the ice 4-5 times a week between ice fishing and caretaking for three islands in the Adirondacks. What I am talking about is something out of the ordinary - that I have not experienced being on the ice on nearly a daily basis.  I think this was a perfect, sun angle, ice conditions, temperature, wind storm that does not happen that often.  It felt like I just stepped off a plane in Arizona in the middle of July.

Offline Raquettedacker

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #4 on: Apr 16, 2014, 03:31 PM »
caretaking for three islands in the Adirondacks.   



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Offline filetandrelease

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #5 on: Apr 16, 2014, 07:05 PM »
Today was mostly sunny and I would guess it hit 70 degrees on the shore of the lake I was working on.  My employee and I decided to try to catch some smelt, most likely for the last time.  The ice was hard and very textured due to the rain and sun.  As we got on the ice, we realized that it was warmer out there than on shore. A lot warmer. Like 20 degrees warmer.  It felt like a sauna. It was hard to believe. Has anyone else ever experienced this?

every year for the last 40 I get a nice tan,  , last year we had one day that crested 75 in early march
 

Offline Loudmouth879

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #6 on: Apr 16, 2014, 10:33 PM »



      You don't happen to have a dog named Chance?

I know that caretaker! The property he takes care of is a peninsula not an island tho. Not sure if that's the only property he takes care of tho. Chance has gotten a lot bigger over the past year lol Summer 12 to summer 13

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Offline fishermantim

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #7 on: Apr 16, 2014, 10:41 PM »
You are right. I am only on the ice 4-5 times a week between ice fishing and caretaking for three islands in the Adirondacks. What I am talking about is something out of the ordinary - that I have not experienced being on the ice on nearly a daily basis.  I think this was a perfect, sun angle, ice conditions, temperature, wind storm that does not happen that often.  It felt like I just stepped off a plane in Arizona in the middle of July.

OK, now I know what you were saying.

Yeah, it's a weird experience when there is no wind and a "bluebird" sunny day (no clouds).
Because the sun is reflected back off the ice, anything that can absorb the heat WILL, and it does have that non-winter feel to it.
What I also find weird is hearing the sound the ice makes when it melts.
I was fishing a pond in southern NH a few weeks back, and the ice was still over a foot thick and solid right to the shore.
Although it wasn't really sunny, it was warm. The melting ice sounded like a babbling brook. I kept looking around for running water.

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Offline felix

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #8 on: Apr 18, 2014, 08:36 AM »
I believe what is happening is a combination of three things occuring at the same time. (1) Sunlight does not heat air directly, but it can heat particles within the air like water vapor and dust ect...   (2)  The granulated texture of late ice can act as a diffuser of light in many directions, where as a flat sheet of ice will act more like a flat mirror and tend to reflect light in a single direction.  (3) The higher angle of the sun in late winter allows for more of the reflected light stay closer to the surface of the ice.

So my theory is simply that the incoming sunlight is diffused along the surface of the ice in late winter more so than at other times of the year. This more concentrated diffused light is then passing through a layer of air that contains more water particles then at other times of the year. Therefore, able to transfer more sunlight into heat. On a windless day we can sometimes see a slight fog forming over the ice. There is probably a way to photograph this phenomena in a way that would make it appear as if the fog were glowing.     

Offline jonnygorgo

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #9 on: Apr 22, 2014, 05:14 PM »
I believe what is happening is a combination of three things occuring at the same time. (1) Sunlight does not heat air directly, but it can heat particles within the air like water vapor and dust ect...   (2)  The granulated texture of late ice can act as a diffuser of light in many directions, where as a flat sheet of ice will act more like a flat mirror and tend to reflect light in a single direction.  (3) The higher angle of the sun in late winter allows for more of the reflected light stay closer to the surface of the ice.

So my theory is simply that the incoming sunlight is diffused along the surface of the ice in late winter more so than at other times of the year. This more concentrated diffused light is then passing through a layer of air that contains more water particles then at other times of the year. Therefore, able to transfer more sunlight into heat. On a windless day we can sometimes see a slight fog forming over the ice. There is probably a way to photograph this phenomena in a way that would make it appear as if the fog were glowing.   

I think you are right. That day was fairly sunny, but there was a slight mist just above the ice. We were seeing mirages on the ice as you would in the desert.  Last night I watched a documentary on a theory that the Titanic was in similar conditions when it crashed.  I guess it is possible that the ice berg could have been invisible due to distortion of the atmosphere as a result of vastly different air fronts colliding.  We know so little about everything.

On a different note, has anyone ever seen smelt rise and feed on the surface? I have seen it twice, at dusk, about a week before the ice formed.  It looks like rain.

Offline jonnygorgo

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Re: Defying the laws of thermodynamics
« Reply #10 on: Apr 22, 2014, 05:15 PM »
I do not have a dog!

 



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