auger storage

[Burtess]

From the Rapala manual which covers all of its gas augers (should also be good for Eskimo).

I put TruFuel (ethanol free premium stablilized 50:1)  in mine because I do not have a source of ethanol free gas in my area.  I think I will leave it in the tank as well over the summer.

Burt

[thomasthepikehunter]

I agree, most people over think storing. When all your doing is putting it away for the summer, all you need to do is stabilize the fuel. Fogging oil is a gimmick, ask any actual mechanic. A 2 stroke is spreading oil every time it's run anyway. The only time I could ever see it having a use is on old cars where there is a chance they could be stored for a decade. I've asked multiple small engine mechanics, as well as car mechanics, and all agree fogging oil does absolutely nothing.

[Rebelss]

I agree, most people over think storing. When all your doing is putting it away for the summer, all you need to do is stabilize the fuel. Fogging oil is a gimmick, ask any actual mechanic. A 2 stroke is spreading oil every time it's run anyway. The only time I could ever see it having a use is on old cars where there is a chance they could be stored for a decade. I've asked multiple small engine mechanics, as well as car mechanics, and all agree fogging oil does absolutely nothing.

Protecting internal parts does nothing? Up here ANY engine that is going into storage for more than 3 months is internally fogged...winter or summer, cylinder, carb, or injection systems. Read the manual for Evinrude E-tecs /Johnson engines; first thing for storage is cylinder/carb/injection system fog. It's just an easy, simple  5 minute way to protect metal surfaces from any moisture or  any contaminants that can cause rusting/pitting. Oh, by the way, I was certified as a small engine mechanic sometime way back in the 70's, before I became NIASE certified on BIG engines. But, it's whatever works for ya...and I believe fogging of parts has it's place. Cheap and easy.

From one of the major boat engine manufacturing manuals:


Rust never sleeps
Allowing corrosion to flourish during the off-season is less dramatic but equally destructive. Corrosion can establish a foothold on idle components, anytime and anywhere, so liberal use of corrosion inhibitors —on both internal and external parts— is a second guiding principle for winterizing.

Prepare a checklist

As with laying-up your boat/engines for the season, it is essential not to miss a step. If your owner's manual includes winterizing instructions, that is the procedure you should follow. In the absence of manufacturer's instructions, here are two generic checklists for engine winterizing, one for outboards and one for inboards. Some steps on these lists may not apply to your particular engine.

The only items you will need, other than your engine's normal lubricants are:

An aerosol can of fogging oil,
A fuel stabilizer (gasoline engines) or a fuel biocide (diesel engines).

[thomasthepikehunter]

I'm not arguing that fogging is bad, it does not damage anything. I've never seen fogging in any manual of mine, but all my stuff is relatively old. As a mechanic, have you ever opened a motor up thats been sitting less than a decade and saw rust? Its an honest question, I'll take any opinion. The way I see it, a 2 stroke is continually coating internal parts in oil. What good would putting more oil in do? Even a 4 stroke, the conditions inside a sealed motor are unlikely to allow rust.

[Rebelss]

Yup, I have...on cylinder bores, and also butterfly plate rods. We have these horrible humid summers around here, then we go into cold, damp Falls. Seems if the piston is at ATDC, always seems like the upper cylinder will "haze" as we call it, looks like a very light orange film. Moisture does and will condense on the inside of these, believe it or not. See more of it on older brass butterflies, and some  in carb throats. I agree far less needed on a 2 cycle than a 4 cycle. BUT, there's the carb/linkage to fog, too. A good fog job entails just a blast down carb throat, then a blast in cylinder with a few revolutions of the piston. Done in 2 minutes. Any unprotected metal is always susceptible to corrosion in any form, especially with the poor metals of today, is how I look at it. That's the way I was trained, and at the very least, not hurting a thing. Just a little extra precaution can go a long way. Old habits die hard. But like I said, whatever works for ya.

[cold_feet]

I am with Rebelss on this 100%.  The way I see things is I can guess 100% of you guys will put you auger away in a garage correct? That garage will be subject to humidity correct? Internaly that engine was subject to gasoline which will wash oil from parts even though you know their was a lubricant in that fuel it will become a gooey mess when the gas itself evaporates leaving more residue internally. Besides the fact the piston rings will wipe down the cylinder walls cleaning them of almost all oil.

  You could just put the auger up the way it is and maybe twice a month go out and fire it up and run it for a half hour to keep the cob webs out of it or go the route of summer storage and take things beyond what is called for and give all components a fogging assuring you are eliminating moisture and the start of corrosions on metal parts.  Look it will be a guarantee every year is the same and next wont be any different.  Guys are going to need their auger next season and will be posting here I put it away it was running why doesn't it run now. Or my auger runs like crap it wont idle or run full throttle. or it take 200 pulls to fire my auger. Listen to Rebless  on this one I would stand with him on his method because it is thorough and goes beyond what manufacturer is calling for and secondly is a proven method used in the past by thousands of guys like myself who has worked on engines and know in this world many times the old way is still the best way to do things.  You guys got a investment in those augers take care of them . Myself mine is Armstrong powered like RG  I can guarantee my Nils will fire first pull next season. Give your engine a fogging and put it away right and see how it will take care of you next year.   

[JonPerry]

It's too early to put it away anyways. we still have 2'+ here

[nocod]

I used to run my auger dry,I was told left over gas will leave a varnish like substance in the carb,now with the propane i just unscrew the bottle and give it one pull to clean it out.

[wirenut45]

reb ; please answer this q ; doesn,t the ex. valve open to atmosphere? if auger stored with ex. open can,t air &moisture get to cy. wall? does ex. valve really seal even when closed on a used eng.? i mean a hermetically sealed state, where no atmosphere can get in? serious q, as i don,t know and trust you guys ans. thanks. wire

[Nor Easter]

Wirenut,
2strokes don't have valves.

But as to valves and sealing? Old or new, a test is to fill the heads with water (while removed from engine) and see if the level goes down. If it does your valves are leaking and need to be replaced or lapped.

[cold_feet]

2 stroke engines got no exhaust valves. On a 4 stroke the valves must close tight and seal for ignition to take place. this happens only for a short amount of degrees due to cam durations. So on a 4 stroke it is possible to slightly seal off the cylinder but realistically you still will have slight leakage trough piston rings and the end gaps of the rings. There is no real hermetically sealed engine where outside air or humidity can not get internally inside.

  So to eliminate any problems of corrosion starting by adding a little oil in cylinder through spark plug hole and pulling the cord a few times to spread this oil leaves just that slight residue to help the piston rings from seizing or  also keep the walls from oxidizing. Guys who still are forced to use Ethanol fuels will start seeing oxidizing on carb parts both outside and worst inside the carb in short order. Also the carb Diaphragms and needle and seat will start to deteriorate and break down dry out and become another stat for not using Ethanol fuel. And next years major question and answer to why someone's auger wont start or run right

  I am sitting here wondering why this is even an argument or major discussion on protecting your investments? Fogging a engine is not even harmful in any way or form towards that engine. It simply will displace moisture and protect the exposed metal from oxidizing much the same as when you bought that auger it comes with a light fogging on it to protect it in storage while in its box. This stuff isn't like dipping the auger in 90 weight gear oil  its almost like a silicone spray. Maybe just maybe some of us old timers might be caught up on a old fashioned way of doing things but I can tell you they still work. I'm no rookie. I've built engines made parts and fixed almost anything out their much the same as many of the guys on here who give solid answers.  If I didn't believe in my stance on this stuff I would never answer to it and just sit back and watch as guys try to figure it out.  That's not what its about its sharing some of my knowledge so others don't do through the hassle of figuring things out. I learned much of my stuff hands on because in our days computers were no where to be found and finding these answers were for us grabbing wrenches and tearing things apart. Sometime we were lucky and old timers gave us pointers along the way and to be honest if you went against what they told you that was the end of them teaching you any more.  Its up to you what you want to do you asked we answered you want to believe it perfect. If not we will know because next year those questions of why my auger runs like crap will flood these pages once again.

[Rebelss]

I've saved my responses from the year before, and the year before, and just re-paste them every year. Oh, and ya just beat me to it, CF, was in the middle of coffee. Good response. 

[Alex Delarge]

I fog all my small engines for storage. The auger I squirt it in through the cylinder cause it is propane and I'm not sure if the oil would gum up the carb. A by-product of burning propane is water so I definitely want to coat those surfaces. The beginning of next season I'll run it to burn out the fog oil, change oil and plug. I live on a lake so there is a lot of moisture here. Equipment that is easily fogged through the carb, I go that route. If not I spray it right into the cylinder via spark plug.
I don't believe fogging is a "gimmick". I like to take care of my stuff, especially when I buy something new. Fog oil gives me the piece of mind that those small engine parts have a coating of rust preventative for those several months of storage.

[thomasthepikehunter]

I brought it up because its a matter of opinion. You are the first mechanic I've talked to that actually likes fogging oil. Every one I've met doesn't bother, because one they have never seen a reason to, and two it would waste a lot of their time if they fogged every motor they store. Granted, thats for marine shops and such that store engines. Even the small engine guy that works from his own property says that fogging oil does very little, to nothing. Opinions change, maybe your way of thinking was the old way, maybe it will be the future. For now I won't even worry about it. So far any motor that I've ruined have been because of overheating or lack of lubrication.

[Dan J]

Great post CF, I agree and have been doing this from day one. My buddy has the same outboard as I do, he also has a power auger and a snow blower. He thinks I'm wasting my time winterizing and adding stabilizer and non oxy fuel. Most of his stuff is in the shop getting fixed. How much money is he saving? I like being able to pull the starter cord or turn the key and have it start. Old school and loving it.

[Eyes R Bitin]

I think I will start fogging my power equipment from now on.  Haven't had a problem so far but don't want to have trouble in the future either.  As far as it being a gimmick or not, who really cares?  I have a tackle box half full of gimmicks and don't regret but a few.  I dare say that most of the posters in this thread do too. 

[wirenut45]

so, should i remove the spark plug to oil, should i use amsoil or regular?  LOL. wire

[cold_feet]

I brought it up because its a matter of opinion. You are the first mechanic I've talked to that actually likes fogging oil. Every one I've met doesn't bother, because one they have never seen a reason to, and two it would waste a lot of their time if they fogged every motor they store. Granted, thats for marine shops and such that store engines. Even the small engine guy that works from his own property says that fogging oil does very little, to nothing. Opinions change, maybe your way of thinking was the old way, maybe it will be the future. For now I won't even worry about it. So far any motor that I've ruined have been because of overheating or lack of lubrication.

   


 You said its a matter of opinion. Well you got my opinion along with a few other mechanics who we all agree with fogging. Funny you say Marine mechanics say not to fog engines? Merc and Evenrude call for fogging especially if you run salt water in fact they recommend to fog after every trip out to help reduce the abuse of the Salt water. They also recommend flushing the engine with fresh water and supply a hose adapter port for doing such.  Snowmobile manufacturers recommend the same fogging treatment for their engines when the machine is going for long storage. You want to try a little experiment try this. Take 2 common bolts like a 3/8 grade 5 put fogging oil on one and leave the other plain then simply lay them outside in the weather for the summer tell me next winter how they fare. Take your prized shotgun spray it down with Ether to remove any oil and lay it out with the two bolts and let me know how it looks next hunting season. Fogging is never a miracle cure it doesn't really cure a problem but it is like many things a preventative maintenance product  that should be used simply because it benefits the engine it is used on keeping it clean and eliminating the start of oxidation on many of the Aluminum parts used on small engines. Personally I wont even touch the comment of a mechanic wont do something because it is a waist of time. Send me the list of those places so I don't use them or send people to those places. 

[Rebelss]

"Experience speaks volumes".   I wonder just how good these so called "mechanics" really are. Cold_feet, you and I have both done the racing/engine building/motorcyle/hot rod thing, and have the qualifications to back it up. Good, free, qualified advice available to everyone. Lots of people may say "it's a waste of time', but they're the same ones who come over and cry to me "My  (insert item) spark plug is all black and it won't run right". What a lot of them don't realize, is damage from improper storage is cumulative; you may not see a problem this year, but sure will down the road. A "fogging job" includes more than just the cylinder; carbs and linkage are included, too. Lotsa experts out there who wouldn't know a venturi from a Ventura. Inexperienced opinions are just like you-know-what; everybody's got one.
But, whatever works for ya, just don't bash a legitimate procedure to help people with their equipment because someone you know has never heard of it. And as for "all the extra time spent to fog", I put away my snowblower yesterday, with this article in mind....I timed the fogging. Pulled the plug, sprayed oil into the cylinder, rotated the piston a few times, another quick spray, re-installed plug, blasted carb throat, sprayed linkage. Done. 3 minutes, 15 seconds.   
 
Wirenut, just pull that plug, use any oil you want, (your 2 cycle would be fine) use about a Tbsp., can also spray WD40 down in there, give starter rope a VERY SLOW pull; re-install plug. Spray down carb throat and linkage with silicone spray, WD40, any good protectant. Along with the gas procedure, you're set to go. Good luck.

[kpd145]

I use sea foam. I will run the auger almost all the way down with gas, dump in a liberal amount of sea foam.

Before starting I also remove plug and dump sea foam in there, pull the cord about 5 times with no plug to get the sea foam working in the cylinder.

I let it sit for about 10 minutes, put plug back in and start it up until the gas runs out.

Done this for over 12 years with minimal issues.

Sea foam in tank cleans out my carb and the stuff in the cylinder breaks up and removes any deposits I may have gotten during the season.

[cold_feet]

Rebless....  I think you nailed it with the time factor. 3 whole minutes this year Vs. 3 hours aggravation next season. This is what I totally don't understand.  Some guys I can see take the time to do things right or at least take the steps to help themselves in the future. Some ask these questions and we do our best to give them the most logical answer we know without leading them down a wrong road. Am I always right? Not always but I will give you the best advise I know. I can not tell you how many questions I have answered here and other forums and in person about Oxy fuels and the damage they do to small engines. I know you have done the same. How many answers have both of us given to those who's Augers wont start wont idle or die. All of our answers are based on one thing Preventive Maintenance. Simply you take care of it. It will take care of you. I laugh at the fact those old Jiffy 30's are still out their running and blowing away newer versions of augers. Why is this? Is it because those old timers used the methods we advise to use on todays equipment? Why is it that you see old farm equipment still in use? Or old outboard motors? or Old snowmobiles? Lawn mowers, and on and on.  I laugh at the old Jiffy 30 by todays standard the Tecumseh  motor they came with is now called bullet proof. In the days of Tecumseh  I wouldn't give you .02 for one of their motors. Nothing but headaches. But they still are outlived the new engines. Maybe it was due to the fact someone took their time and took care of it and properly maintained it. Maybe that 3 minutes the owner took through all those years kept that machine running for as long as it is.  One thing for sure if it was just put away for the summer without doing anything to it it sure would have been in a junk pile by now. That I could bet my reputation on.

[thomasthepikehunter]

I'm not giving out names, but pretty much every shop in central MN has stated that they have seen no purpose of fogging oil. As far as betting on why an engine suvives, you should know you can never do that. There are motors that self destruct for no apparent reason, and there are abused motors that last decades. Its nearly impossible to tell which will last. I agree, preventive maintenance will almost always double the life of a motor. I'm not even sure of my motors age. I got it from an older friend who bought it new in his teen years. The auger somewhere around 25-30 years old. Always run with non-oxygenated fuel, and always stored with a fuel stabilizer. It has never had fogging oil in it. I've had if for 5 years now, and apart from a stupid tank design, the thing is fine. The original owner always used 24:1 dino oil, and I use 40:1 full synthetic. It has great compression too. So you should not bet that not using fogging oil will ruin an engine. All my other engines would agree with me. However, I think you might be right. You have to realize you're just a couple of guys on the internet, vs everyone I've ever actually talked to.

[Rebelss]

A.So you should not bet that not using fogging oil will ruin an engine. All my other engines would agree with me. However, I think you might be right. B. You have to realize you're just a couple of guys on the internet, vs everyone I've ever actually talked to.

Point A: No one has stated it WILL "ruin" an engine; I was strongly suggesting proper maintenance WILL keep that engine alive longer than not. 40 plus years plus hundreds of tear-downs have proven it to me. I trust in experience. Everyone's entitled to their beliefs. They said Garlit's was nuts running a rear engine rail, too.
Point B: That goes both ways, doesn't it. Everyone on here is "just a guy on the Internet".
(Sorry ladies)
Your methods work for you, keep at it. Mine work for me. Have a pleasant day. 

[cold_feet]

Well as it goes you got your beliefs I got mine. And you also state a couple guys on the internet  well my friend I also say I am only talking to one guy here who like to argue. Seems pretty funny all those nay Sayers about Oxy fuels made a switch and many more will in the future. You still have not answered the facts that many of those manufactures who you claim they do not require fogging also advise fogging a engine after use in salt water. this seem like a double standard doesn't it. I am not here to argue with you or for that matter even haggle with you. You don't want to fog by all means Don't . Others here who asked and also the few others who might do it to save a headache next fall go for it.  Simply put you do as you want. I am headed to MN this next few weeks to work a pipeline job I guess I will do some talking around while I am their and get some first hand knowledge from these mechanics and draw a conclusion off my first hand knowledge sense we got no marinas from you. 

Rebelss...
  You know their is always one. I think between us both we got over a century of hands on experience. Every year I run into this same sort of thing. He tells us he doesn't believe because mechanics he talks to says so. Guys like ourselves who have hands on say the opposite because we have seen what benefits it has first hand and he disbelieves us. he takes second hand information and believes and we give first hand information and well you see the result. Gee pretty funny if you think of it a Mechanic tells someone don't take care of a engine don't do something that could benefit its longevity. Do you think he might be looking for new customers? The old pay me later routine? 

[Fish Wayniac]

Well im now totally confused which way to go. I will go the way I have been for last 3 years.Add stabil and a little seafoam. Start it then run for a minute then shut it down. Store it in my basement with a coating of wd40 over some of the parts to keep from rusting. It was running like a champ all season, hope for the same results next december. Good luck on the open water.

[Nor Easter]

"You said its a matter of opinion. Well you got my opinion along with a few other mechanics who we all agree with fogging. Funny you say Marine mechanics say not to fog engines? Merc and Evenrude call for fogging especially if you run salt water in fact they recommend to fog after every trip out to help reduce the abuse of the Salt water."

You guys on the 'middle coast' don't have to deal with the extremely harsh environments as a sea (aka corrosive SALT) 'spray'. Corrosion can be a topic of MANY avenues. This one is on fogging and mostly, cylinder walls. It's the lower units and other service points that refuse to open due to snapped bolts that are 'fossilized' into place. My honest opinion, not necessarily in it's entirety, is, pick one plan, stick with it, and your equipment will last an indefinite amount of time. Get lazy, skip a step, you're kicking your own stuff (self) in the shins.

Fog is good.... (if you can fit it in your budget and time)

[thomasthepikehunter]

^ thats something we can all agree on.

[Mainedog]

I fog my Dog each spring, and put some sea foam in my wife's coffee. 

[cold_feet]

You guys on the 'middle coast' don't have to deal with the extremely harsh environments as a sea (aka corrosive SALT) 'spray'. Corrosion can be a topic of MANY avenues. This one is on fogging and mostly, cylinder walls. It's the lower units and other service points that refuse to open due to snapped bolts that are 'fossilized' into place. My honest opinion, not necessarily in it's entirety, is, pick one plan, stick with it, and your equipment will last an indefinite amount of time. Get lazy, skip a step, you're kicking your own stuff (self) in the shins.

Fog is good.... (if you can fit it in your budget and time)
[/quote]

 When I talk fogging I am not only talking about just internal parts I talk the whole unit external and internal. Salt water or not Corrosion will take place as humidity and temperatures change. Store a auger in a garage and in the summer you will see a temp change at times close to 50 deg in just a few hours. Humidity is everywhere unless you build a humidor for it. The cost of fogging a engine is under 10.00 more like about 7.00 for a can of Sta Bil fogging oil which would last about 3 years.  Put some fresh Sta Bill treated non Oxy fuel in tank fire the auger let run to allow treated fuel to pass through carb shut off.  Spray some fog oil in carb pull a couple times remove plug spray fog oil in cylinder and again pull recoil a few times to spread oil and replace plug. Just lightly spray exterior of auger to displace moisture and give bare metal a light protective coating and that's [pretty much it. Time spent? maybe 10 min to 30 min tops. If you want to take things farther now is the time to go through the auger 100% like looking at recoil rope and replace if it looks whipped. A nut and bolt check Replace worn fasteners as needed. If you are ambitious order your carb rebuild kit to keep on hand just incase. Check the blades maybe replace them or send out for sharpening. Now is the time to go through this machine in the off season. Its warm out so treat it well for the next year.

  I did a little research on manufactures of marine engines. Seems that every one still recommends for long term storage to fog the engines. There seems to be a discrepancy for those who feel shooting a fogging oil through the intake on a EFI engine gums the sensors. Well according to the manufacturers you can fog through the intake and or plug hole and some even added a port to fog through but bottom line they all recommend Fogging the engine. So once again if its good enough for a manufacturer to recommend it I will follow that recommendation.   I personally don't see any difference between a outboard being stored this way or a Auger or even a lawn mower they are a investment and I like to protect my investments the best way I can.   

[Rebelss]

And that's why Marine engines have a Schrader valve...for fogging and top end/injector cleaning.
This nice little vid applies to all engines...simple and to the point.

And courtesy of Joe Gibbs Racing, Engine Building Section, just a tidbit...


 Effects Of Rust On Engine Durability

Rust is very harmful to engine durability in a variety of ways.  Most people think of rust as the typical brownish coloration (barnyard rust) often found on ferrous- containing (iron) components which have been exposed to the elements.  That is only one small part of the problem.

A more accurate term for what most people know as rust is corrosion.  Corrosion can exist in many forms, and one of those forms is rust.  Corrosion occurs any time a surface is left unprotected, and the metal on the surface is allowed to combine with oxygen (oxidation).  Oxygen in the air (or water) combines with the metal to form a fairly coarse abrasive material.

Rust occurs particularly quickly if an unprotected surface comes in contact with humidity and chlorine or sulfur.  The chlorine or sulfur combine with the water to form hydrochloric or sulfuric acid, and it quickly attacks the metal surface.  That’s why all good lube oil formulations are basic – to help prevent corrosive wear.  In modern day engines corrosive wear is usually more prevalent than abrasive wear.

Iron rust is abrasive, and it can play havoc with cylinder and valve train wear accelerating it by a factor of 2 or 3.  Highly stressed areas, such as push rod ends and valve springs are particularly susceptible.   But iron rust isn’t nearly as abrasive as aluminum corrosion.  (Aluminum oxide is used on grinding wheels.)  If aluminum corrosion gets into critical clearance areas such as cylinders or the valve train, it can actually cause engines to fail.

Rust inside an assembled engine or transmission can occur any time the oil is allowed to drain off a component due to infrequent use.  Engines which are operated daily or weekly seldom encounter this problem, but many street rods, muscle cars, and race cars are often stored for several months without being  turned over or fired up.  This is a recipe for rusting problems.

Humidity and low temperatures significantly increase the propensity to rust. Engines fired up infrequently generate a tremendous amount of condensation.  If the engine isn’t allowed to completely warm up, this condensation remains inside the engine.  (Water will not burn off until the internal engine temperature (oil temperature) reaches 212 degrees F.)  This water will then attack any surface which isn’t adequately protected by either an oil film or a vapor phase rust inhibitor, ie, some type of fogging oil. ( new tools which often contain a packet of vapor phase rust inhibitor to prevent rusting in shipping and storage).

The recent trend of using ethanol in gasoline fuels increases rusting tendencies significantly since alcohols have a tremendous affinity for water.  In other words, alcohol, whether it is ethanol or methanol, acts like a sponge to gather up any free water in the area.  Any unburned alcohol in your engine will soon be fully saturated with water.  That’s why racers never leave alcohol containers open to the atmosphere.  Open containers must be thrown away because they will contain significant water after only a brief period of time.