Flat Fish of Lake Champlain in Decline?

[perchhauler]

So about 6 or 7 years ago I started chasing flat fish in northern champlain, such as sunnies, bluegills, and crappie.  it would seem that bay after bay the population has declined severely over the last few years.  first dillenbeck bay, it had a lot of flats, including crappie but seems the last good year there was about 5 years ago. then carry bay, it was pretty good fishing 3-4 years ago, then Macomb aka poquetts bay and pelots bay have been pretty dead the last 2 seasons.  Hibbard bay was good last year, but is real slow this year. Then this year campbells bay which probally had the biggest school of sunnies on the lake is way down, each year it seems to be less and less there.  Am I way off here, or is this just me?  seems a bay gets pounded by a large group of fishermen, and then is dead. perhaps there is a population cycle that occurs? Maybe some of you guys that have been after them a long time can offer some insight?

[gofish33]

I agree with your observations.  I've tried fishing both Carry and Dillenbeck this year with very few caught in either bay.  Several days, I was the only one jigging .    That has to affect the pike fishing too, without sunnies to eat, the pike aren't going to hang around for long.

gofish33

[wmhunts]

maybe alewives messin up more than just smelt? 

[mudchuck]

Interesting.
I personally witnessed back in 2011 after the spring floods had the lake level at 103 feet, the seeds were so thick you could almost walk across them. They came in (along with the gills and white perch) to a small creek that usually has a steelhead run in the spring.
That said, what I also witnessed were guys hauling 5 & 6 gallon buckets full out, some of these guys were even taking 6 or more pails full in a day, even had one guy brag how he made $600 haul in one day! They were non-stop biting and it certainly looked to me that the fishery was exploited to it's fullest during that time. I couldn't imagine hauling off more than 1 single pail full, whether to eat or sell, let alone 6 pails in a day!
During those same times, the black bridge in St. Albans was closed due to the flooding and everyone was lined up almost shoulder to shoulder along both sides of the bridge and under it as best they could to get in on the crappie run which was really good that May/June.
The side effect of such good fishing was the amount of rude people fishing from the bridge left so much trash behind that the town put a no fishing from the bridge law into effect, this was on top of them same people coming back day after day after day and taking their 25 fish limit.
This past spring (2013) I witnessed a bullpout run up to the small dam in Alburgh that the fish were so thick you couldn't see any water thru the fish! They got hammered until the fishmongers stopped buying bullpout, then it was amazing how there was nobody interested in fishing them anymore (except those of us that wanted bullpout to take home).
I'm not an expert on fishery biology, or in the know on how the cycles of light vs. heavy harvest take a toll from year to year, or how the invasive species may have an impact on the fishery from year to year, but this I know: there are still plenty of flat fish, crappie, bullpout, perch and other panfish to be caught, they may or may not be in the usual places and they may or may not take the usual ways of fishing for them to catch them. Some days (and years) are better than others, that's why they call it angling...when it's easy, everyone does it...
And just when you think you've got the target species all figured out, they do something you didn't expect.

So, I went out this afternoon to jig for perch a couple hours after I got off work and jigged up smelt instead. 80FOW 15feet off bottom.



TIGHT LINES!

[rboot]

I totally agree with all of you that there hasn't been as good of fishing in all the bays in the islands the past few years, but I don't know if that means the fish are on a decline.  It's very possible that they have just changed their pattern a little. . . . .Perhaps Carey has been bad because they pull the milfoil out of there in the summer.  DB is a huge bay, fished it early this season and there were fish but they were not in the "traditional" spots, they were tucked in tight to shore in the thickest weeds.  I also think that Paquetts is tough because there is not access to it unless you drive on from holiday harbor.  It's tough to say what's really going on but Champlain is a huge fishery and I don't think the population has been hurt, we all just need to find em' again!

[jonny jigger]

sunnys are slow but the crappie are in heavy limits every day for the last two weeks of big fish

[mudchuck]

sunnys are slow but the crappie are in heavy limits every day for the last two weeks of big fish

I've tried DB and it appears to be fished out of crappies, no sunnies either, just dinky yellows and swiss cheese ice

[jonny jigger]

there not in dillin back

[putback]

This is interesting. 3 wks ago I went to goose bay to pick up a meal of crappie, skunked, it happens. Went back a few days later, nothing? Tried 2 other spots in Champlain, zeroed out. That's 3 spots I've used since the '80s, know the topo well, one of the three will always produce crappie. Over time fish preferences change, but now with these post I'm concerned. I certainly wouldn't ask anyone where they catch fish, but it would put my mind at ease if a few folks would respond that they still catch the lowly Crappie in Champlain or are the #s really down?

[jonny jigger]

what i found there in tight goups i pulled 250 fish out of a 40by40 spot if you dont have a vexla your missing them one day i hit it there was crappie from the top of the ice to the bottom in 10 feet of water  the only way i finding them is keep moving  and dont fish with the crowds or drill lots of holes for some reason it pushes them off

[putback]

That's encouraging, sounds normal. I use a Lowrance X67 and spiral out from a center hole if necessary. Only sm yellows and my jig in the old reliable spots.  Guess its time to do some scouting, things change.

[perchhauler]

Seems like if the school is down to a 40x40 spot then we are not talking about a  lot of fish. I realize there are still some crappie and sunnies left, and yes I have had some pretty good days this year as well. Just seems to be less of them with each passing year.  perhaps vexilars have enabled some to harvest too many? Has technology such as cell phones, flashers, and high speed augers enabled us to harvest too many too fast?

[ckashner]

all factors that need to be considered

[TroutWhisperer]

Maybe you're not supposed to be able to just drop your line in any bay and pound panfish?  Maybe there used to be way too many fish in Champlain?  I have no problem with the "hunt" to find fish.  If I hammered fish in every hole I drilled, I don't think I would enjoy it too much.  There are still plenty of fish, but they move around and aren't always where you think they should be.  That means you gotta put in a little more effort and find them.

[rboot]

Just a thought, maybe i'm wrong but most of the commercial guys that I know and see walking off the ice with pails of fish don't have a vex, they don't use a a hydro glow or anything like that, so. . . . .

[TRT]

Agree - lot of factors affecting the fisheries including fishing pressure, technology advances,
big creel limits, allowing commerical fishing, cormorants, zebra mussells - invasives etc.

[TroutWhisperer]

I have to state the obvious here.  I keep hearing murmurings from people that seem to be complaining that they aren't catching fish....or aren't catching them like they used to.  The natural progression in these conversations is that the fish populations are way down.

......and then......here's the kicker.........the blame has to fall on the "commercial" fisherman. 

Am I the only one that sees the irony here? 

"We can't catch fish anymore, they're all gone"

"It's the fault of the "commercial" fishermen.  I see them hauling buckets of fish every day"

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this makes me chuckle.   I'm sure I just pi**ed off about 10 guys....but blaming guys that catch a ton of fish for a personal inability to catch fish, flies in the face of common sense.  If I'm not catching fish, I guarantee that somebody else is.  Champlain is such a huge fishery, I don't think a bunch of guys with hook and line will ever be able to drastically affect the overall fish population. 

[Panfish hauler]

  One thing that you have to consider is that when the ice gets as thick as it is this year Sunfish and Bluegills don't bite good until you get a good warm up which we have not really had yet this year as far as Crappie I would say the bite has been as good if not better this year than the last couple but most of the bite has been at nite

[Lord_of_the_Perch]

I have to state the obvious here.  I keep hearing murmurings from people that seem to be complaining that they aren't catching fish....or aren't catching them like they used to.  The natural progression in these conversations is that the fish populations are way down.

......and then......here's the kicker.........the blame has to fall on the "commercial" fisherman. 

Am I the only one that sees the irony here? 

"We can't catch fish anymore, they're all gone"

"It's the fault of the "commercial" fishermen.  I see them hauling buckets of fish every day"

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this makes me chuckle.   I'm sure I just pi**ed off about 10 guys....but blaming guys that catch a ton of fish for a personal inability to catch fish, flies in the face of common sense.  If I'm not catching fish, I guarantee that somebody else is.  Champlain is such a huge fishery, I don't think a bunch of guys with hook and line will ever be able to drastically affect the overall fish population.

My point exactly. Well said!!!

[TroutWhisperer]

Fish aren't a "bottomless" resource, but they are a "renewable" one.  I personally feel that F&W is doing a pretty darn good job managing this resource.  Lake Champlain is an AWESOME fishery and I feel lucky to be able to fish that lake regularly.

[jonny jigger]

i cant see you comparing ocean fishing with them using trolling net gill nets and such to lake fishing with hook and line also some winters u cant get to where the fish are for bad ice plus prices drop and there no money to be made so it not worth fishing every thing has its ups and downs   i think most people expect to just drill a hole and catch fish and if they don't then there's no more fish left and its the end of the world. its like any thing u have work at it and move around just because you caught fish here last time don't mean there going to be there the next time  if you want to see some thing look up using gill nets on the great lake if we did that on Champlain yeh then i start worrying

[sam2013]

I have to state the obvious here.  I keep hearing murmurings from people that seem to be complaining that they aren't catching fish....or aren't catching them like they used to.  The natural progression in these conversations is that the fish populations are way down.

......and then......here's the kicker.........the blame has to fall on the "commercial" fisherman. 

Am I the only one that sees the irony here? 

"We can't catch fish anymore, they're all gone"

"It's the fault of the "commercial" fishermen.  I see them hauling buckets of fish every day"

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this makes me chuckle.   I'm sure I just pi**ed off about 10 guys....but blaming guys that catch a ton of fish for a personal inability to catch fish, flies in the face of common sense.  If I'm not catching fish, I guarantee that somebody else is.  Champlain is such a huge fishery, I don't think a bunch of guys with hook and line will ever be able to drastically affect the overall fish population.

Pointing out the obvious as well, every time someone shows concern about fish populations the conversation moves toward blaming commercial fishermen, as you point out, but then people who support commercial fishermen or just think there are more than enough fish in Champlain attack the people who bring it up and assume that the sole reason for their concern is that they suck at fishing.  Plenty of excellent fishermen, including people who post on this forum, are concerned about the populations of different species of fish despite the fact that they consistently catch them.  Maybe a few bad days on the ice can make even the best of fishermen overreact, but still... We've all seen this same exact argument play out on numerous threads throughout the season.  I think it would be good to have a civil conversation about this topic, and we've seen glimpses of that, but overall it's just been the same goofy bull***t over and over again.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm kind of sick of it.

[flagfishon]

Pointing out the obvious as well, every time someone shows concern about fish populations the conversation moves toward blaming commercial fishermen, as you point out, but then people who support commercial fishermen or just think there are more than enough fish in Champlain attack the people who bring it up and assume that the sole reason for their concern is that they suck at fishing.  Plenty of excellent fishermen, including people who post on this forum, are concerned about the populations of different species of fish despite the fact that they consistently catch them.  Maybe a few bad days on the ice can make even the best of fishermen overreact, but still... We've all seen this same exact argument play out on numerous threads throughout the season.  I think it would be good to have a civil conversation about this topic, and we've seen glimpses of that, but overall it's just been the same goofy bull***t over and over again.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm kind of sick of it.

x2

[grasspikerel]

Pointing out the obvious as well, every time someone shows concern about fish populations the conversation moves toward blaming commercial fishermen, as you point out, but then people who support commercial fishermen or just think there are more than enough fish in Champlain attack the people who bring it up and assume that the sole reason for their concern is that they suck at fishing.  Plenty of excellent fishermen, including people who post on this forum, are concerned about the populations of different species of fish despite the fact that they consistently catch them.  Maybe a few bad days on the ice can make even the best of fishermen overreact, but still... We've all seen this same exact argument play out on numerous threads throughout the season.  I think it would be good to have a civil conversation about this topic, and we've seen glimpses of that, but overall it's just been the same goofy bull***t over and over again.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm kind of sick of it.

Very well said. No state has minimized the negative effects of harvest for such a prolonged period as Vermont and that has been to the detriment of numerous important species.  It has only been in recent years it seems that more focus has been placed on bag limits and size limits for species such as walleye, trout and perch. I am aware that pike studies are on going.  Take away Champlain and the general abundance of quality fish in Vermont is very low, especially compared to neighboring states.  For some species the difference is stunning, especially largemouth bass.  One need look no further than most tournament results. I imagine that a relatively low number of lakes in the state creates more pressure per lake than some other states.  I think the department recognizes this and most promotions point anglers towards Champlain because it is top notch for a variety of attractive species.  Still, I'm sure harvest has an impact and it is at least with looking at.

[pikeaddict]

Pointing out the obvious as well, every time someone shows concern about fish populations the conversation moves toward blaming commercial fishermen, as you point out, but then people who support commercial fishermen or just think there are more than enough fish in Champlain attack the people who bring it up and assume that the sole reason for their concern is that they suck at fishing.  Plenty of excellent fishermen, including people who post on this forum, are concerned about the populations of different species of fish despite the fact that they consistently catch them.  Maybe a few bad days on the ice can make even the best of fishermen overreact, but still... We've all seen this same exact argument play out on numerous threads throughout the season.  I think it would be good to have a civil conversation about this topic, and we've seen glimpses of that, but overall it's just been the same goofy bull***t over and over again.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm kind of sick of it.

Well Said

[TroutWhisperer]

Commercial fishing is nothing new.  It's been going on for years and years and there's still lots of panfish to be caught....year after year.  The target species are prolific.  There's a reason some species are off limits for buying and selling and some are not.  I appreciate genuine concern and NO, I don't think everybody that shows concern is doing it because they can't catch fish. 

But I do believe that some of the comments are coming from anglers that are struggling and think it's because the fish are gone.  The fish aren't gone.  Some days there are fish swimming all over the place and they simply won't bite.  I see it on the camera.  I don't claim to be all knowing about the biology of the Lake.  I leave that up to the professionals.  In my opinion, as long as it's legal to sell fish, I have no problem with it.  I trust F&W has the big picture in mind and will make changes if they are necessary.

[gogetthegaff]

Well Said

Kind of like that old Yoga Berra saying; "Nobody ever goes to that restaurant anymore... it's always too crowded."

[ckashner]

Actually the State F & G dept. is trying to make changes in regard to selling fish that have a length and bag limit= Crappies....the biologists have presented a recommendation for change to the law...but it is being held up by....get this..... the politcians....it needs to pass the house....and the  chairman of the F & G committee doesn't seem to see the importance last I heard.....
So, as the debate continues and I have seen plenty of posts that state the biologists know best.....they are trying to protect Crappies....the hold up is the elected folks who don't even fish....if any of you folks want to see the white paper final draft....pm me your email and I will be happy to forward you a copy and contact information for the chairman who is sitting on his hands.....

and for the record....I do not have any problems catching fish...

[booner1108]

Renewable source? I have some questions about that term, How many eggs does the average perch or crappie lay, how many survive to adulthood, how many eggs are rotting in gardens or dumps from fish caught during the winter and spring every year.
 I'm not casting blame on any categorie of fisherman, but I've icefished hard for over 30 years and if you don't see a decline in the fish popuation, I think your fooling yourself. I can see it plain as day with my Vex.

[ckashner]

X2 Bonner1108....I agree 100%